Since you have no mind for reason, science or logic. Let's try your religion.
Here's a challenge to all creationists:
The Bible says that God created the world in six days and on the seventh he rested. But why did he create anything other than the earth, the sun and, perhaps, the moon? What function do the other planets in our solar system serve in the divine plan? They're not mentioned in the Book of Genesis. What's the point of them? What's the point of the stars in the sky? What's the point of galaxies so far distant that humankind has only become aware of them thanks to modern astronomy? Why are they there?
Imagine that the "universe" consisted of nothing other than earth, sun and moon. That would be massively persuasive (though still not conclusive proof) that this "mini-universe" was designed specifically for humankind. Why did God choose not to make it obvious that we are his creation? Why did he create far flung galaxies that would have been inconceivable to humans let alone observed by them when the Bible was written? Are they there to shake our faith, to make us doubt God's existence? If so, why does God continually play this game? Why, at every turn, does he seek to conceal himself, make himself seem incredible, make it practically impossible for any intelligent person to believe in him? Is he playing a game? But the outcome of this game, if you play it wrongly, is to be consigned to hell, so we are told. So did God create an entirely superfluous universe (in religious terms) simply in order to create the likelihood that billions of souls would go to hell for having insufficient faith?
And you think this is a God worth worshipping? Try reading The Armageddon Conspiracy by mike hockney (my current favourite book), and you'll see that the God worshipped by the Christians, Jews and Muslims is actually Satan, with the uttermost hostile intentions towards humanity. Doesn't all the evidence point that way for those who believe in these things?
A good God would never play games with his creations that resulted, for many of them, in an eternity of hellfire and damnation. No good person could possibly believe in such a God. God, by definition, is perfect. Does a perfect being deceive his creations, and tempt them, and punish them horrifically if they make mistakes? Either this God is in fact Satan, or doesn't exist at all. Which is it, Creationists?
The very fact that the good Lord got tired and needed to rest on the 7th day suggests that his powers are finite. Not much of an omnipotent, omniscient and infinite God, then...now is it?
But, a logical theory is that maybe he plans to put life on each of them. Who knows. But really, it is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things for now.
And who said God did not make it obvious we are his creations? God said we are in his image. God's main four qualities are , Love, wisdom, justice, and power. If that is true, it is no small wonder that mankind can immitate these fine four qualities. We are in his image. Besides those things, his written word if understood properly is infallible, regardless to those who believe otherwise. All that he says will happen, happens, or will at some point. True story.
And I have taken time to show you several wrong views you had on prophecy and such, just to show you you lack an accurate understanding of the word. If I could not understand something, I may doubt it too.
Anyone who believes that Jehovah is not our creator, does not want too, or has not currently been made to understand his word thoroughly. And some, even after they have been corrected on some things(you) still say, no way Jose. Why? Because your pride won't let you believe you don't have all the answers. To accept God at this point in your life, you would have to humble yourself to do so. CAN YOU DO SO?
Then I peel into his word, and read up on prophecy that has come true, and reas into prophecy waiting to happen, and read up on his grand plan to have the righteous inherit the earth made anew. A peaceful one. And my faith is strengthened and renewed each day because if he is powerful enough to create all the heavens and universe, and he is powerful enough to fulfill prophecy in past times, he can surely do so in ours!
You look up and say "Thanks to lucky chance that the big bang happened, so that organisms came forth, and now we can see how an accident produces such awe inspiring things. Im gonna enjoy it while im here!"
You have no hope.
This is it for you. All you see, and all you know. This miserable 70 -80 years maybe of life. Things will keep evolving, and changing, until the sun blows up and sucks in the universe in your mind.
The sad part is, you and those like you are choosing to be in this state.
All you will need to do is go a few pages back to see my reasoning for saying so. AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE BEING MISLEAD AS TO WHAT THE TRUTH IS CONCERNING THE BIBLE. FIERY HELL IS ONE OF THE MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE BIBLE.
Where did you ever read that Jehovah was tired? It just simply said that he rested. That implies he chose no sit back and enjoy the work he has accomplished, not that he NEEDED to do so.
WhyDoes God Allow Suffering?
Has God caused the suffering in the world?
What issue was raised in the garden of Eden?
How will God undo the effects of human suffering?
AFTER a terrible battle in one war-torn land, the thousands of civilian women and children who had been killed were buried in a mass grave surrounded by markers. Each marker bore this inscription: "Why?" Sometimes that is the most painful question of all. People ask it sadly when war, disaster, disease, or crime takes their innocent loved ones, destroys their home, or brings them untold suffering in other ways. They want to know why such tragedies befall them.
2 Why does God allow suffering? If Jehovah God is all-powerful, loving, wise, and just, why is the world so full of hatred and injustice? Have you ever wondered about these things yourself?
3 Is it wrong to ask why God allows suffering? Some worry that asking such a question means that they do not have enough faith or that they are showing disrespect for God. When reading the Bible, however, you will find that faithful, God-fearing people had similar questions. For example, the prophet Habakkuk asked Jehovah: "Why is it that you make me see what is hurtful, and you keep looking upon mere trouble? And why are despoiling and violence in front of me, and why does quarreling occur, and why is strife carried?"—Habakkuk 1:3.
4 Did Jehovah scold the faithful prophet Habakkuk for asking such questions? No. Instead, God included Habakkuk’s sincere words in the inspired Bible record. God also helped him to get a clearer understanding of matters and to gain greater faith. Jehovah wants to do the same for you. Remember, the Bible teaches that "he cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7) God hates wickedness and the suffering it causes far more than any human does. (Isaiah 55:8, 9) Why, then, is there so much suffering in the world?
WHYSO MUCH SUFFERING?
5 People of various religions have gone to their religious leaders and teachers to ask why there is so much suffering. Often, the response is that suffering is God’s will and that he long ago determined everything that would ever happen, including tragic events. Many are told that God’s ways are mysterious or that he brings death upon people—even children—so that he can have them in heaven with him. As you have learned, though, Jehovah God never causes what is bad. The Bible says: "Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!"—Job 34:10.
6 Do you know why people make the mistake of blaming God for all the suffering in the world? In many cases, they blame Almighty God because they think that he is the real ruler of this world. They do not know a simple but important truth that the Bible teaches. You learned that truth in Chapter 3 of this book. The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil.
7 The Bible clearly states: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19) When you think about it, does that not make sense? This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is "misleading the entire inhabited earth." (Revelation 12:9) Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.
8 A second reason why there is so much suffering is that, as discussed in Chapter 3, mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. (Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9) A third reason for suffering is "time and unforeseen occurrence." (Ecclesiastes 9:11) In a world without Jehovah as a protective Ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
9 It is comforting for us to know that God does not cause suffering. He is not responsible for the wars, the crimes, the oppression, or even the natural disasters that cause people to suffer. Still, we need to know, Why does Jehovah allow all this suffering? If he is the Almighty, he has the power to stop it. Why, then, does he hold back? The loving God that we have come to know must have a good reason.—1 John 4:8.
AVITAL ISSUE IS RAISED
10 To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying Jehovah, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question Jehovah’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to Jehovah’s power. Rather, Satan questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that Jehovah is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5) Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty, his right to rule.
11 Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. In effect, they said: "We do not need Jehovah as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong." How could Jehovah settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But Jehovah had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in an earthly paradise. (Genesis 1:28) Jehovah always fulfills his purposes. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding Jehovah’s right to rule.
12 Let us consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.
13 Jehovah has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10) How Jehovah handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation. So, what has Jehovah done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.
14 The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, Jehovah knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like Jeremiah of old, they will learn this vital truth: "I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."—Jeremiah 10:23.
15 Why, though, has Jehovah allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening? Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that Jehovah has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.
16 Second, Jehovah has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If Jehovah were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, "it is impossible for God to lie."—Hebrews 6:18.
17 What, though, about all the harm that has been done during the long rebellion against God? We do well to remember that Jehovah is almighty. Therefore, he can and will undo the effects of mankind’s suffering. As we have already learned, the ruining of our planet will be undone by the turning of the earth into Paradise. The effects of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and the effects of death will be reversed by means of the resurrection. God will thus use Jesus "to break up the works of the Devil." (1 John 3:8) Jehovah will bring all of this about at just the right time. We can be glad that he has not acted sooner, for his patience has given us the opportunity to learn the truth and to serve him. (2 Peter 3:9, 10) Meanwhile, God has been actively seeking sincere worshipers and helping them to endure any suffering that may come upon them in this troubled world.—John 4:23; 1 Corinthians 10:13.
18 Some might wonder, Could all this suffering have been prevented if God had created Adam and Eve in such a way that they could not rebel? To answer that question, you need to remember a precious gift that Jehovah has given you.HOWWILL YOU USE THE GIFT FROM GOD?
19 As was noted in Chapter 5, humans were created with free will. Do you realize what a precious gift that is? God has made countless animals, and these are driven largely by instinct. (Proverbs 30:24) Man has made some robots that can be programmed to follow every command. Would we be happy if God had made us like that? No, we are glad to have the freedom to make choices about what kind of person to become, what course of life to pursue, what friendships to form, and so on. We love to have a measure of freedom, and that is what God wants us to enjoy.
20 Jehovah is not interested in service performed under compulsion. (2 Corinthians 9:7) To illustrate: What would please a parent more—a child’s saying "I love you" because he is told to say it or his saying it freely from the heart? So the question is, How will you use the free will that Jehovah has given you? Satan, Adam, and Eve made the worst possible use of free will. They rejected Jehovah God. What will you do?
21 You have the opportunity to put the marvelous gift of free will to the best possible use. You can join the millions who have taken a stand on Jehovah’s side. They make God rejoice because they take an active part in proving Satan a liar and a miserable failure as a ruler. (Proverbs 27:11) You too can do that by choosing the right course of life.
For Knicks4lyfe, im still waiting for your response on my other post that continued my arugment against you (the 4th argument and so on)..once u answer that then i wil respond to both your post....deal??
For Knickfan4realz...im still waiting for u to responde to my answer to you about the Cosmological argument. instead of wasiting your time arguing Knicks4lyfe, who i disagree with on many things concerning the Bible, just read my response then u can continue to post about other arguments. Deal?
"The Knicks are back" - Amare
gen 8:21 And Jehovah began to smell a restful odor, and so Jehovah said in his heart: “Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man’s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done.
ecc 1:4 A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite
Prov 2:21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.
Actually, Lucifer is not the highest angel, Jesus is. And you are right, Satan did cause his own downfall, I just dont agree that God saw he would do that before he made him. Not saying that he could not if he wanted too, just saying he didn't.
And again, how is it that you know Jesus is the messiah, and even some of the Jews in Jesus time recognized that, but you now say that revelation is the revealing of Jesus as the messiah to the Jew? Has he not already been revealed? Yes he has. But consider this
Following the Babylonian exile, when Israel was restored to its land, the people were to restore true worship in their God-given land. One of the first projects undertaken was the rebuilding of Jehovah’s temple in Jerusalem. However, since the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 C.E., the temple has never been rebuilt. Instead, in the former temple area stands an Islamic shrine. If the Jews, who say they are under the Mosaic Law, were today in Jerusalem as God’s chosen people, would not the temple devoted to his worship have been rebuilt?
DoesGod’s covenant with Abraham give assurance that the Jews continue to be the chosen people of God?
Gal. 3:27-29: "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (So, from God’s standpoint, it is no longer natural descent from Abraham that determines who are Abraham’s seed.)
Will all the Jews be converted to faith in Christ and attain to eternal salvation?
Rom. 11:25, 26: "I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner ["this is how," TEV; "thus," CC, By; Greek, hou´tos] all Israel will be saved." (Notice that the saving of "all Israel" is accomplished, not by conversion of all the Jews, but by the ‘coming in’ of people from Gentile nations. Some translators render verse 26: "And then after this the rest of Israel will be saved." But A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament [Edinburgh, 1937, G. Abbott-Smith, p. 329] defines hou´tos as meaning "in this way, so, thus.")
To arrive at a correct understanding of what is recorded at Romans 11:25, 26, we should also take into account these earlier statements in Romans: "He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code." (2:28, 29) "Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’"—9:6.
is it necessary for Jews to put faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved?Isaiah 53:1-12 foretold the death of the Messiah ‘to bear the sins of many and to make intercession for the transgressors.’ Daniel 9:24-27 connected the coming of the Messiah and his death with ‘making an end of sin and forgiving iniquity.’ (JP) Both passages show that the Jews were in need of such intercession and forgiveness. Could they expect to reject the Messiah and have the approval of the One who sent him?
Acts 4:11, 12: "[Regarding Jesus Christ, the apostle Peter was moved by holy spirit to say to the Jewish rulers and older men in Jerusalem:] This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’ Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." (Although the nation of natural Israel no longer enjoys special divine favor, the way is open to individual Jews, as it is to people of all nations, to benefit from the salvation that is made possible through Jesus the Messiah.)
Are the events taking place in Israel today in fulfillment of Bible prophecy?Ezek. 37:21, 22, JP: "Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all." (Israel today is not a nation under a king of the royal line of David. Theirs is a republic.)
Isa. 2:2-4, JP: "It shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.’ . . . And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (In Jerusalem today, where the temple was formerly located there is no "house of the God of Jacob," but, instead, an Islamic shrine. And there is no move on the part of Israel or its neighbors to "beat their swords into plowshares." They depend for survival on military preparedness.)
Zech. 8:23, JP: "In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you." (To what God does the prophecy refer? In the Hebrew language his name [יהוה, commonly translated Jehovah] appears over 130 times in this one book of the Holy Scriptures. Today when someone uses that name, do people conclude that the person must be a Jew? No; for many centuries, superstition has caused the Jewish people as a whole to refrain from ever uttering God’s personal name. The upsurge of religious interest concerning natural Israel today does not fit this prophecy.)
How, then, are events in modern-day Israel to be viewed? Merely as part of global developments foretold in the Bible. These include war, lawlessness, cooling off of love for God, and the love of money.—Matt. 24:7, 12; 2 Tim. 3:1-5.
rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,
What John saw SIGNIFIED what would take place, but it does not mean what he saw will happen just as he saw it. That is where you are off. You take the signs literally.
Your answer to my response about the prophet Isiah is both short and inerror. It is apparent that you do not believe the Scriptures for I quoted basically word for word in my prior response. Your use of Matthew, Psalms, and Proverbs is not only mis-interpretation but you are taking the meaning of Scripture out of context. It is apparent you have no fundamental view of Escotology. The end times deal with both man, the heavens, and the earth.
All your Biblical quotations have again nothing to do with God's plan at the end time.
I will answer all your questions and statements...
are the ones that will be ‘caught up in the clouds,’ as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:17?
My answer: First are the ones who have died in believing Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Second, all of us born again believers who are alive at the moment of the rapture or whatever you call it.
Your question:Will Christ appear visibly on a cloud and then take away faithful Christians into the heavens while the world looks on?
Jesus say whether the world would see him again with their physical eyes?
My answer: ONLY those beleivers in Jesus as their Savior, will be aware of the Rapture. Unbelievers will be left behind. In John 14:17, as you mentioned, he was talking to His disciples...but for example in The Lord's Prayer in John chapter 17, He again was praying for his followers (his disciples) BUT also for us today. In John 14:19, Jesus is referring to the fact that in a little while (Calvary) his disciples, the world will not see him "no more". The "no more" was only applying to that time, because he ressurected and the world did see him again after the Resurrection. And furthermore, after the Resurrection, He told the disciples (and beleivers), that he must go or leave them in order that the Holy Spirit to come to them as explained in John 16:7-8.
Your question: What
is the meaning of the Lord’s ‘descending from heaven’?
My answer: Most theologians believe we will see the Rapture. For sure we will know what is happening. When he calls me, I'm going to know who He is and were I am going. I also will know, that in a twinkling of an eye, that I have a new resureccted body. And thus me and all believers in Jesus as our Savior and God, will always be with Him forever.
Your question: In
what sense, then, will humans "see" the Lord "coming in a cloud"?
My Answer: Sir, it bothers me why your are so pickey about an insignificent thing whether we see or dont see Him, it doesnt matter because we will know when he's here. The start of this argument was about wether the Rapture would occur, so stay on track dont go into exactly what would happen, because if it happened to today I would know about it, the question is would you know about it?
Your question: Would God literally destroying the heaven and earth contradict these verses?
Your quote and statement:gen 8:21 And Jehovah began to smell a restful odor, and so Jehovah said in his heart: “Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man’s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done.
My Answer: Without getting into hours of debate because it's fruitless, to curse the ground is one thing, to change or make a new earth is another thing.
Your quote:ecc 1:4 A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite
My answer: We'll still have the earth but it will be new.
Your quote: Prov 2:21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.
My answer: This has nothing to do with the destruction of the earth. The land then is gonna be changed...he didnt say there is going to be no earth...your argument is trivial.
Your statment:Actually, Lucifer is not the highest angel, Jesus is. And you are right, Satan did cause his own downfall, I just dont agree that God saw he would do that before he made him. Not saying that he could not if he wanted too, just saying he didn't.
My Answer: First of all, Jesus is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Therefore, Jesus is God. Get that into your theology. I am going to give you a reader's digest version of Hebrews chapter 1... God the Father spoke to us in many ways. In these last days, He spoke to us through His Son, Jesus. Whom he annointed heir of all things, through whom Jesus made the world. And Jesus is the radience of the Father's glory and the exact image of the Father's nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. On Cavalry, when Jesus died for your sins, he made purification of sins, and he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become much better than the angels and He(Jesus) has inherited a more excellent name than the angels.
God the Father asked the questions and statements......
1.) "To which of the angels is 'My Son'?"
2) "Today I have beggotten thee."
3) "I will be a father to you."
4) "You shall be a son to me."
5) "Let all the angels of God worship Jesus."
6) What angel makes the winds?
7) To what angel did he say concerniing His Son, "Thy throne O God is forever and ever."
Thus wether you believe it or not, Jesus is God our personal Savior and ONLY through him will you have salvation. Every spirit that does not confess Jesus, is not from
God (1 John 4:3). We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this, we know the spirit of truth from the spirit of
Satan (1 John 4:6). Unless Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior, your God, you can find no other way to salvation. Hebrews 2:3 states, "How shall you escape if you neglect so great a salvation?" You have the choice my friend of continuing with your warped theology, which will only lead to damnation, or you can accept the above.
Your statement: Being foreordained does not signify predestination. Anyone of the apostles or disciples could have chosen to fall away if they wished, they.[/quote] Prophecy is the testament to God's foreknowledge. But fore knowledge does not signify predestination. Predestination means these people had no choice but to be what they were, and that goes against free will. Fore knowledge is diff.
My Answer: The Bible teaches that the Father foreknew the believer. Although contraversy arises over the interpretation of the doctrine of election, scripture makes it clear that the believer is elected by God. Predestination does not deal with salvation BUT with conformation. The Father comforms the believer to the image of Jesus. The Father gave all believers to Jesus. Having been foreknown and predestined by God, the sinner must then be called by God. Remeber this verse, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose"(Romans 8:28).
The reward system is quite simple. Those who are righteous will live forever. specific number in heaven, and an unspecified # on earth. Those who practice vile things eternal judgement, which is death. John 3:16
My Answer: the reward system is simple but your answer is not enough. The reward system has nothing to do with salvation. Read my answer about the Bema seat(kindly correct my error in my prior response to improper spelling of Bema seat, i said Bemacy). John 3:16 states "For God so loved you that He gave His only begoten Son, Jesus, that if you believe in Him you will not perish but have eternal life."
Your statement: But the saving of flesh, what is the purpose if he plans to blow up the earth???? Why cut the tribulation short if the earth is to be destroyed? Why save any flesh, why not just rapture Israel if that is the case?
And again, how is it that you know Jesus is the messiah, and even some of the Jews in Jesus time recognized that, but you now say that revelation is the revealing of Jesus as the messiah to the Jew? Has he not already been revealed? Yes he has. But consider this
My answer: Your statement is continued, but I just put the start of your explanation. Everything you stated was redundent. Read my argument about why the Jews are God's chosen people. And remember Genesis 12:3.
Your statement: If you are really looking for beasts, and Jesus to come from heaven with a sword in his mouth to literally happen, you have missed the most important passage in the book of revelation.
Your quote:rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,
Your statement: What John saw SIGNIFIED what would take place, but it does not mean what he saw will happen just as he saw it. That is where you are off. You take the signs literally.
My answer: My friend, you are literally wrong. You are so literally off base that it defies intelligence to even try to answer you. What John saw is exactly what is going to happen. If you or the "group" you follow have any other interpretation than what is written in the book of Revelation, God says in Revelation 22:18-19, "If anyone adds to this book, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."
Last edited by Paul1355; Jul 24, 2008 at 01:49.
"The Knicks are back" - Amare
lol Metrocard's Colin Powell post is crazy! I didn't know there was a hangout section on Knicksonline. I'm late. Wow, this discussion on religion has caught the interest of a lot of people. This thread has 117 posts and counting.
This means that from front to back, the bible has to be taken in context with the theme of the book. That implies consistency from begining to end. So any doctrine you teach must be consistant with what the bible teaches.
Now then, onto you.
Im in error, but you are the one who simply cannot comprehend that if God says he made this earth to be inhabited, but destroys it, then his purpose for this earth was not fulfilled. Why? BECAUSE HE DESTROYED IT! God says all his purposes must come to fruition. (isa 55:11)
And tell me, how can I misuse this?
Prov 2: 21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.
What is to misinterpret?? It's fairly simple, Jehovah plans to rid THIS earth of wicked people. What tells me that? 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.
What tells me that it will be THIS EARTH these things will happen on? It's fairly simple, Jehovah plans to keep the righteous ones left over after he tears the wicked away. What tells me that?21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.
If one is using just common sense, they would realize this cannot apply to a NEWLY BUILT EARTH, because the NEW EARTH is said to not even have 1 unrighteous person. So then, how could the wicked, or treacherous be torn away as 22 says? THERE WAS NO UNRIGHTEOUS ONES TO BEGIN WITH!
So clearly for proverbs to be applied, it can only be applied to an earth that holds wicked people. And that is THIS ONE.
I will answer all your questions and statements...
So you believe you will be ruling with Christ for the 1000 years?
Jesus said this once
john 17:14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world..
When Jesus was ressurected, who saw him, his disciples, or the rest of the world?
So even though his disciples are in the world, as far as Jesus was concerned they were no part of it. Therefore when Jesus said the world would see him nomore, logic has it he means the world outside of those who truly are his followers.
John 17: 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
This is Jesus prayer, he says everlasting life, (salvation) depends on our taking in Knowledge of His Father, whom he calls THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND of himself.
So you can't even gain life unless you recognize the true God first, then Jesus. Jesus did, and he was not talking to himself. DO YOU RECOGNIZE JEHOVAH AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AS JESUS DOES HERE?
Secondly, how can you stand here and tell me you expect a rapture, which is a ressurection, but in the next breath say you have an immortal soul that survives life after your flesh dies? To be resurrected you have to DIE. ALL OF YOU. If some part of you lives, then that makes a resurrection null and void, because YOU'RE NOT DEAD.
Im being picky? That is scary that you said that really. For you of course. His disciples seemed to care a lot. It was a big issue to them. So much so they asked him what the sign would be of his return! (mat 24:3). Why would Jesus NOT tell them you will see me plain as day, instead of telling them what SIGN to look for? How does that agree with what you're saying? Jesus tells his disciples what sign to look for, you say that's nit picky, it does not matter, we will see him. Thinking the way you are, would you not then likely MISS THE SIGN THAT JESUS SAID WOULD SIGNIFY HIS RETURN??????????????????????????????????
I notice you did not mention the DEAL EVERY LIVING THING A BLOW PART at all. Convenient really.Answer this yes or no please. If he destroys the earth as you say he will, would he NOT BE DEALING EVERY LIVING THING A BLOW ON ACCOUNT OF MAN?
Ok, but was this verse speaking of a new earth, or the current earth? Context would say current earth. Not one God builds from Scratch.
This has everything to do with the destruction of earth. If people are going to be left over in it after he tears the wicked away, than that means he is not going to literally destroy the earth! Sounds like he is evicting unruly tenants instead.
There are so many things wrong with that I wont even bother to break them all down. I'll just reply with this.
Collosians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Creation Means you have a CREATOR. You wanna logically tell me how Jesus can be called a creation in the bible, but you reason he is God?
How bout Jesus own words here in revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
This appears to imply that when God began to create, it started with Jesus. Unless you are willing to try and sell me on God being created?????
More from Jesus own mouth
John 17:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”
Wow, Jesus has a God?
I see you left this verse out when you quoted Hebrews 1
1:. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”
Now people Other than Jehovah being refered to as God happens more than once in the bible. So the fact that Jesus is said to be a God does not mean he is almighty God. He called Satan the God of this system once (2 cor 4:4)
But that Hebrew verse is special for another reason. If Jesus is said to be a God, but also has a God who exulted him more than his partners, how Could a trinity setting even stand there? To be exulted means to be placed above. It says his God exulted him above his partners... His partners are God the father and the holy spirit correct? At least in a trinity setting it would be. So is that correct?
No, the context has it speaking of angels, so the logic would indicate that Jesus has been exulted above the angels, who are his partners (or fellow angels)
And lastly, Hebrew 9: 24 For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us
Wait a second.. I thought Jesus IS GOD? WHY IS JESUS IN HEAVEN APPEARING BEFORE THE PERSON OF GOD????? IS HE NOT PART OF THAT PERSON ACCORDING TO YOU?????
whom do the prophecies about restoration of Israel have fulfillment today?
Gal. 6:15, 16: "Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God." (So "the Israel of God" is no longer determined on the basis of conforming to the requirement laid upon Abraham for all the males of his household to be circumcised. Rather, as stated at Galatians 3:26-29, those who belong to Christ and who are spirit-begotten sons of God "are really Abraham’s seed.")
Jer. 31:31-34: "‘Look! There are days coming,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant . . . And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, "Know Jehovah!" for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah." (That new covenant was made, not with the nation of natural Israel, but with the loyal followers of Jesus Christ to whom hope of heavenly life was being extended. When instituting the Memorial of his death, Jesus gave them a cup of wine and said: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood." [1 Cor. 11:25])
Rev. 7:4: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (But in the verses that follow, mention is made of "the tribe of Levi" and "the tribe of Joseph." These were not included in lists of the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Interestingly, while it is said that people would be "sealed out of every tribe," the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned. [Compare Numbers 1:4-16.] Reference must here be made to the spiritual Israel of God, to those whom Revelation 14:1-3 shows will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom.)
Heb. 12:22: "You have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels." (Thus it is not to earthly Jerusalem but to "heavenly Jerusalem" that true Christians look for fulfillment of the promises of God.)
Ok, it's as I suspected, you are a Christian, who ignores what Christ says. He says their house is abandoned to them. You are saying, no it's not.
Actually, neither the "group" nor myself have it wrong at all. It says in signs for a reason. You choose to ignore that, so be it. You shouldn't though.
Talking specifically about Robert Jastrow for a moment he is also quoted as stating: "it seems to him that "the curtain drawn over the mystery of creation will never be raised by human efforts, at least in the foreseeable future". Now reading this he's not stating that GOD, did it or agreeing that it was GOD in the first place. He is saying that right now don't have the actual evidence to confirm it was GOD, nor deny it was not...just simply there is not evidence to suggest that it was clearly done by a higher spiritual being that has infinite powers and set the universe in motion. It is a far cry from saying..."must've been GOD" the way you are trying to claim it. So it DOES NOT GO against my argument that "GOD IT".
Robert Geisure, first I'm going to ask is the name spelled right because I can't look him up? But let's just talk about his quote first. Assuming for the moment it is true and not connected to a larger work. "Every beginning must have had a Beginner".
So basically with these two quotes I am gathering your interpretation of them is "Creation Can't Be Disproven". Let's say basically from these quotes this is your argument, I'm still on question 1 at the moment.
First you got two fallacies in these claims. The first one is "shifting the burden of proof", the second is "arguing from ignorance". In the first the logic is that this is a red herring. You commit this fallacy if you make a claim that needs justification, then demand that the opponent justify the opposite of the claim. In other words it is not sufficient for someone to present a new idea and say that it must be accepted because it cannot be disproved.
Indeed, if one is making an exceptionally bold claim then exceptional evidence is expected in its support. Or as Carl Sagan said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". To state there is a GOD at work, prove there is a GOD at work. Pointing to something saying an invisible man in the heavens did it is not proof, it's not even a good assumption.
Assumptions the good ones, have logic, and evidence behind them. This comes back to strict faith in the sense that you are saying something had to set it in motion, because you have no evidence to state it was set in motion. It's like telling your wife "I know you've been cheating on me", she says prove it, you can't..but now because you can't don't automatically mean she isn't cheating does it, nor does it mean you have proved your claim either..it's not up to her to prove she's not cheating. You made the claim she is it's your burden to prove it. You say there is a GOD that kickstarted life and creation...okay prove there is an actual physical GOD and I'll say ya'll are right.
But if you're going to hand me a book full of bad logic, contradicting stories and moral tales, and the only explanation you have is it had to be "created" but it's too complex not to have been...you've proven nothing but that you have faith..and argument from personal experience is not evidence.
The second, "argument from ignorance". An appeal to ignorance is an argument that absence of proof is evidence of absence. That is, claiming that something is true only because it hasn't been proved false, or that something is false only because it has not been proved true. For example:
One cannot prove that the Loch Ness Monster is certainly a fake. The creature continues to evade all scientific endeavours to locate it, and no conclusive proof exists indicating that sighting were faked. Therefore, the Loch Ness Monster is real.
If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of proof it is false is not proof it is true. (Where 'proof' means the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance of a truth, or the process of establishing the validity of a statement by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning.)
Forbidding this type of reasoning is not the same as a reasonable presumption (such as the presumption of 'No guilt' in court) like this:Any proposition like "There is X" is reasonably presumed false (not argued false, just presumed false, taken for granted) unless proven true.
This is a basic principle of logic, since the burden of proof can never be shifted to the negation in any case.
The argument from incredulity is a type of argument from ignorance, as it argues that the absence of evidence (or a convincing explanation) of some premise is evidence that the premise is false (or unexplainable). There are two forms of this fallacy, depending on whether it's the arguer's own incredulity or the incredulity of science (or the populace as a whole):
"This is unexplainable" (meaning, of course, "I can't explain this"). This is the argument from personal incredulity, and it contains the (usually unwritten) assumption that the speaker is a superhuman genius who should be able to understand everything -unless he or she is missing an assumption. So the superhuman genius concludes that some assumption ('God did it', 'aliens did it', 'psi was involved' or whichever) is true, because it makes things easier to understand. For example:
"There is no way I can explain how the human mind really works using conventional physics. (Unwritten assumption: If the brain really was governed by simple physics, I should be able to understand it). Therefore, it must be tapping into the computational power of the quantum universe."
"Scientists cannot explain this" (meaning, of course, "as far as I know, science can't explain this"). This variation contains the unwritten assumption that scientists are superhuman geniuses and should be able to understand everything unless they are missing an assumption. This undue veneration of scientists is a form of scientism, or using science as an ersatz religion. On top of that, it is simply not true in many cases - scientists do have an explanation, and the speaker just doesn't know it. For example:
"Scientists are at a loss to explain the evolution of the platypus by Darwinian evolution. (Unwritten assumption: If it was of a Darwinian origin, scientists should know how it happened). Therefore, it didn't evolve."
Talking about Einstein you really can't place the man in any category. He did not however believe in a personal GOD as many would suggest. In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.
"Neither the rule of human nor Divine Will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted … by science, for [it] can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot"-- Taken from Nature, 1940, pgs 650-607 by AE.
Another words...religion only stands where science cannot YET ANSWER...not the same as what you are trying to claim.
In a letter to Eric Gutkind in 1954 Einstein said: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish." In the same letter, Einstein rejected the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people: "For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.
2) You and Anthony Kenny are arguing the "First Cause" argument. Nothing can come from nothing. This argument is extremely self defeating. If every effect requires a cause, it makes no sense to speak of a "first cause", because any so-called "first cause" would itself be an effect which requires a cause, which would in turn require a cause, which in turn...
If, on the other hand, it is granted that at least one effect does not require a cause, there simply is no need to postulate God, inasmuch as the Universe itself could conceivably be an uncaused effect. I'll phrase this in your terms..and maybe you can answer this question of mine...
If you believe that GOD caused everything...and believe in the first cause argument..then simply what created GOD? And there has to be a cause to the first cause..if you accept the first cause argument...keep that in mind!
3) Second Law of Thermodynamics again; You are saying that the system will be left to chaos/disorder..systems left to themselves. You just cited hurricaines, global warming and such as your evidence of this, alright. I'm going to explain WHY you are wrong with a simple example...and it's also an experiment you can perform at home.
a)Take a fairly large amount of salt and add boiling water until it all dissolves. The salt is now in a highly disordered state. Let it sit in a warm place for a while, and order will spontaneously develop in the form of salt crystals. Is this a violation of the 2nd law? For that matter, does creation get around the interpretation of the law being claimed, since life still exists and reproduction happens. No. Entropy is not the same as disorder: It is the reduction in the ability to do further work. We consume food and give back wastes such as carbon dioxide. The food cannot do further work now. Plants use energy from the sun to make food for us, but the sun fuses atoms together to provide that energy, which then can't do more work.
When defining a thermodynamic "system" for purposes of calculating changes in entropy, you need to define it such that there are no external inputs (i.e., an isolated system). A life form is not an isolated system. Life takes in energy (food) in order to function & grow, whether it be an animal eating another animal or a plant utilizing sunlight. If you were to properly define the system, you would see that the apparent decrease in entropy of a particular lifeform is actually at the expense of creating more entropy elsewhere.
When a creature becomes more organized (say, grows to adulthood) it does it by destroying other life. For the little energy plants capture from the sun, massive amounts of solar energy is lost to space. The net result is an overall increase in entropy for the system, in accordance with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The universe is a very big system with vast amounts of energy.
Now I'm going to again try and explain the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
The second law of thermodynamics is a statement regarding the ways in which is it possible for entropy to change. As such, the 2LoT does not actually forbid decreases in entropy; rather, 2LoT can be used to determine the conditions under which entropy-decrease is or is not possible. In particular: 2LoT does allow for entropy to decrease in a specific area, provided that this entropy-decrease is accompanied by at least that much increase in entropy in some other area.
If the Second Law of Thermodynamics actually did forbid entropy-decrease under all conceivable circumstances, 2LoT would be violated every time water freezes (because the entropy of water molecules is a great deal lower in ice than in liquid water).
Biological reproduction and growth involves an entropy decrease and an increase in order, but clearly happens. So this proves that not all things tend to break down.The claim that the universe is a closed system is false, since closed systems need to have a constant volume and the universe is expanding. So the universe is not a dying flashlight in conclusion.!
Another, obvious example is digestion, breaking down large complex food molecules into their simple building blocks. Another is friction, which turns ordered mechanical energy into disordered heat—otherwise Adam and Eve would have slipped as they walked with God in Eden! A less obvious example to laymen might be the sun heating the earth—to a physical chemist, heat transfer from a hot object to a cold one is the classic case of the Second Law in action. Also, breathing is based on another classic Second Law process, gas moving from a high pressure to low pressure. Finally, all beneficial processes in the world, including the development from embryo to adult, increase the overall disorder of the universe, showing that the Second Law is not inherently a curse.
4) Is already explained above in number #2. And NO, there is no contradicition you just simply don't understand the "first cause" argument your trying to claim and rejecting the logical conclusion that if you are going to suggest that the universe had a creator, requires an explanation of GOD'S CREATOR.
5) Still working on #5 and #6 at the moment.
6) You did not answer my question from my previous post...If there is no God why is their something rather than nothing at all?
Last edited by KnicksFan4Realz; Jul 24, 2008 at 11:02.