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Thread: A post to Alan Hahn, I think us Knick fans should look at.

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Default A post to Alan Hahn, I think us Knick fans should look at.

    This is from a site that was a post to Alan Hahn who writes about the Knicks....

    From Bokonon, a fellow Fixer and Knicks fan since the 70s. Worth a re-post here in big print. Bokonon has found Zen in his fanhood.
    His words:
    * *
    It doesn't matter if I am willing to give the Walsh/D'Antoni regime a chance or not. It's not up to me. Knicks management couldn't care less if I approve and that is the way it should be. They should be in it to contend and win for the long haul, not to appease some fans with a win now or else attitude.
    I'm a fan though and and I have to give them a chance. I gave Isiah and Stephon about three years. I was so ecstatic when they got rid of Layden that I didn't care who they hired. I don't recall a lot of Isiah-bashing going on right after he was hired, but maybe that's me. I recall the papers talking about how Isiah brought the Knicks back to being relevant again. They were on the back page for the first time since Van Gundy left. Then Isiah brought Marbury home and it was like a love-fest.
    What happened?
    Losing, and lots of it, on a scale that dwarfed even the Layden years. (yes Eisley, and Shandon Anderson had a better winning percentage than Steph and Eddy, go check, I'll wait...).
    I still stuck by them until it became apparent that Isiah either didn't have a plan, or didn't have a clue. Every other week we got a new direction for the team. It was Phoenix Suns style East, then it was power ball, then it was you can't rebuild in the NBA you have to go for it now instead of waiting for the guy you want. Then it was you have to be patient, we're rebuilding.
    I personally don't mind genuine incompetence as much as I mind someone trying to snow me. Either way it meant he had to go. He had his chance, he blew it. You didn't make us any prouder Isiah.
    Now it is Walsh's turn. I will give him a chance whether it matters or not. I'm sure J.Dolan doesn't care one way or the other if you and I give him a chance.
    Donnie seems to have a plan. So far he has followed through on what he has stated he would do. You could say that he went back on his first promise of more emphasis on defense, but how can you even tell? From the coach he hired?
    How do you know D'Antoni won't stress defense? Riley was a defensive coach before he came to NY, although he wasn't known for his teams' defense, but for his wide-open run-and-gun style. With a different type of group, he changed it up and came up with something else that was successful. I'm not saying D'Antoni is going to suddenly turn into Greg Popovich or Chuck Daly. But how does anyone really know how he will coach this bunch? They haven't even been to camp, or even all been together in the same place yet.
    I think we can all assume they will try to run on offense, but every coach knows you can't fast break off of baseline inbounds passes after opponents made shots. You have to play some defense to run, and some would be more than none which was what kind of defense we had under Isiah. Other than that, you can assume nothing. They haven't played one game, not even preseason, and some people are ready to give evaluations on not only Walsh's, but D'Antoni's jobs with the Knicks.
    As for Duhon, they paid him the same per year that the Sonics gave Earl Watson three years ago when Earl had comparable numbers with the Grizzlies to Duhon's with the Bulls. The Sonics already had a starting point guard at the time.
    Maybe D'Antoni sees something in the kid. He's the coach. Shouldn't he be able to choose the guy who he thinks can run his team on the floor at least as a stop-gap until they can acquire a permanent point? What did they give him a two year deal? Sorry but that's a lot different than the JJames or Jeffries deals.
    As for Marbury, he has to go. It's not about his talent level, or who is a better player than who, or who has better stats. He is a culture. He is the face of the hapless laughing stock New York Knicks and he needs to go, preferably quietly after this season with his contract expiring.
    As for his stats; stats can be misleading. They don't keep a Games gave up on stat. Or a disregarded the coaches instructions and decided to freelance per game stat. Or a seconds dribbled off the clock while pounding the ball looking for his shot per possession stat. Or a stats per game on the second day of back to back games stat. Or a you guys go practice, if you need me I'll be getting my massage stat. Maybe they should, it tells a lot more about the player than assists per game.
    Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

    From:
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    is the Bo$$ Toons's Avatar
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    great post....
    i cosign everything alan said
    kep steph and let him go when he expires ....he needs to go

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    It was a good article. He made some good points about Isiah Thomas; Thomas did have to go. He also said that he prefers for Marbury to leave AFTER his contract expires. I agree with that, too. I also agree that Dolan and D'Antoni deserve a chance, before they get judged as a President and coach.

    However, I disagree with his questioning of how the Knicks are going to play this season. Mike D'Antoni said himself that the Knicks were going to play a fast pace, running style. Unless he's lying, that's the style that the Knicks are going to have.

    I disagree with the Chris Duhon signing. Earl Watson has always shot higher field goal percentages than Duhon, and that's a fact. Watson has also always played off the bench(until last year) so you couldn't really tell what he was capable of doing. Chris Duhon has been given multiple opportunities to start, and he never produced good numbers. Every season that he's played, his numbers have looked like the numbers of a bench player, not a starter.

    11.5 million dollars for Duhon was too much money, period. It wasn't as bad as the James and Jeffries signing, but that contract did hurt the team's salary cap for 2008 and 2009.

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    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by abcd
    It was a good article. He made some good points about Isiah Thomas; Thomas did have to go. He also said that he prefers for Marbury to leave AFTER his contract expires. I agree with that, too. I also agree that Dolan and D'Antoni deserve a chance, before they get judged as a President and coach.

    However, I disagree with his questioning of how the Knicks are going to play this season. Mike D'Antoni said himself that the Knicks were going to play a fast pace, running style. Unless he's lying, that's the style that the Knicks are going to have.

    I disagree with the Chris Duhon signing. Earl Watson has always shot higher field goal percentages than Duhon, and that's a fact. Watson has also always played off the bench(until last year) so you couldn't really tell what he was capable of doing. Chris Duhon has been given multiple opportunities to start, and he never produced good numbers. Every season that he's played, his numbers have looked like the numbers of a bench player, not a starter.

    11.5 million dollars for Duhon was too much money, period. It wasn't as bad as the James and Jeffries signing, but that contract did hurt the team's salary cap for 2008 and 2009.
    If you read the post carefully you'll see that the writer stated that Watons and Duhon's stats were comparable which is true.

    Earl Watson stats for 06-07 season
    9.4 PPG
    5.7 APG
    1.3 SPG
    FG% 0.383
    3P% 0.329
    FT% 0.735
    MPG 27.9


    Chris Duhon's stats for 06-07
    7.2 PPG
    4.0 APG
    0.9 SPG
    FG% 0.408
    3P% 0.359
    FT% 0.752
    MPG 24.4


    Statistically Watson is slightly more productive but the two are comparable. Regardless if Duhon started or not, Watson's has consistently had more minutes and has only performed slightly better.

    Regarding the signing of Duhon, Walsh had to grab the best available pg and that was Duhon. The deal wasn't bad at all considering that Orlando offered Duhon $10 million for three years, which set the tone for Duhon's trade value. He hadn't even begun shopping himself around at that point. For all we know he could have gotten a Jeffries type of deal from another team.
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    Duhon makes $6.5 million over just two seasons with the Knicks.

    Logically bringing in Duhon was a good move. Walsh was competitive but didn't over compensate with is offer. If you're in love with Marbury you'll be bias to any one that appears to be replacing him. Time's almost up.

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    Originally Posted by donchris

    Statistically Watson is slightly more productive but the two are comparable. Regardless if Duhon started or not, Watson's has consistently had more minutes and has only performed slightly better.

    Regarding the signing of Duhon, Walsh had to grab the best available pg and that was Duhon. The deal wasn't bad at all considering that Orlando offered Duhon $10 million for three years, which set the tone for Duhon's trade value. He hadn't even begun shopping himself around at that point. For all we know he could have gotten a Jeffries type of deal from another team.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Duhon makes $6.5 million over just two seasons with the Knicks.

    Logically bringing in Duhon was a good move. Walsh was competitive but didn't over compensate with is offer. If you're in love with Marbury you'll be bias to any one that appears to be replacing him. Time's almost up.
    Tyronn Lue and Keyon Dooling were also available, so I don't know if Duhon was really the best available point guard. He might turn out good, but they paid him too much money. Tyronn Lue was signed for a 2 year-3.9 million dollar contract, and Keyon Dooling signed a 3 year-10 million dollar contract.

    Earl Watson played off the bench for most of his career. Duhon started in over half of his games in his career.

    Here's the stats:
    Duhon's career games: 300
    Duhon's career games started: 159

    Earl Watson only started in 65 games, prior to this season.
    Duhon Started in 141 games, prior to this season.

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    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Tyronn Lue and Keyon Dooling were also available, so I don't know if Duhon was really the best available point guard. He might turn out good, but they paid him too much money. Tyronn Lue was signed for a 2 year-3.9 million dollar contract, and Keyon Dooling signed a 3 year-10 million dollar contract.

    Earl Watson played off the bench for most of his career. Duhon started in over half of his games in his career.

    Here's the stats:
    Duhon's career games: 300
    Duhon's career games started: 159

    Earl Watson only started in 65 games, prior to this season.
    Duhon Started in 141 games, prior to this season.
    Why do you still think Walsh over paid for Duhon? I just disproved that point in my last post. Tyronn Lue is a bum. If Walsh brough in Lue you and the others would have been calling for Walsh's head.

    Starting isn't necessarily relevant to stats. Although Duhon started more games than Watson, Watson averaged more minutes and averaged only sightly higher numbers then Duhon. The Dooling deal is identical to what Orlando offered Duhon, so this further proves that Duhon must not be as bad a player as those that wish for Marbury to remain a Knick would like you to believe. A coach has to bring in guys that he believes will work in his system, what ever that may be.

    For some reason it 'seems' that Marbury may not be a good fit, or at least that's what we as bloggers, posters, fans and the writers are lead or lead our selves to believe. Last years team was a horrible mix of talent and is in need of a shake up. It's still early but I expect for our front line to be moved next. Zach to L.A. (clippers) for Camby is still a possibility.

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    Reading the above article makes little sence and no merit for the 2008-9 season Knicks.
    I got banned from the MSG Forum in 2003-4 for my comments on Isiah Thomas trading for Norris, Marbury, and Penny Hardaway, whom all decision making in the backcourt was so bad it became easy for the next team to write up a scouting report to beat the Knicks with the same plan each game. And when Isiah added same move Tim Thomas to the team losses became a streak of consistentcy.
    The 2002-3 Knicks PG-Ward, SG-Houston, SF-Sprewell, and SF/SG-Anderson could have swept Marbury, Norris, Penny Hardaway, and Tim Thomas in a 5 or 7 game series without a sweat.

    I thought the Bulls fans were just joking about Jamal Crawford bad decision making because I barely watched the consistent losing Bulls Team back then.
    But when Crawford became a Knick and I seen his decision making it was clearly worst than Marbury, Penny, and Norris in the backcourt (and that's BAD!). I was suprise the Knicks had won 33 games that season off of Marbury & Kurt Thomas. The next season adding Q.Richardson bad decision making and consistent poor performance made Knick Oponents cancel practice before they played the Knicks. That's no exageration either.

    I will probably be banned from alot of Knick Forums this 2008-9 season because Walsh & D'Antoni decision-making as President & Coach so far this offseason is just as "WHACKED" as Isiah Thomas (at least Isiah would have got the Knicks a decent star with the 6th draft pick). Then I would have Fired him.

    Donnie Walsh and D'Antoni signed two players this offseason in "Duhorn & Roberson". These two guards are players you invite to training camp and preseason to hustle for an open spot on the roster.
    Marty Collins and Nate Robertson only need consistent playingtime in a 8-man rotation to get their confidence level up high enough to play a winning game.
    Nate & Collins decision-making is creative and on the money to confuse any scouting report given to Knicks oponents. Hiring coaches this offseason to train Collins & Nate to what coach D'Antoni expect from them would have been cheaper and gave the two guards a sense of confidence of receiving playingtime this season.
    Signing players that play the same exact role as Collins & Nate is not a bright move.

    This article says nothing about all the coaches that Marbury, Crawford, Q.Rich, and Zach Randolph had in their NBA career which tried to change these players performance on the court to improve their talents and skillz. Which these players refuse to do for any of their previous coaches.
    So if D'Antoni is not like coach Pop, Daly, or Jax, then Knick oponents will beat the Knicks consistently with last year scouting reports on these so-call star Knick players.

    If Donnie Walsh can not trade these bad decision making players:
    Marbury ($21 mill), Zach ($14 mill), Curry ($10 mill), Q.Rich ($9 mill), Crawford ($9 mill), Malik ($8 mill), Jerome ($6 mill), and Jefferies ($6 mill), contracts this offseason, then owner Dolan big brass stock holders will want these players getting playingtime in the 2008-9 season.
    This type of high salary playingtime has been a Knick philosophy since President Chekkett, Grunfeld, Layden, Isiah, and now Walsh.
    This is why Pat Riley quit, and Don Nelson was Fired, Grunfeld was Fired, and Larry Brown was Fired (using a million lineups alongside of Marbury & Curry).

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    I don't think you understand what Walsh and D'Antoni are thinking.

    After last season, the Knicks had a handful of clear cut needs.

    1. Better defense at almost every position.
    2. Consistent outside shooting
    3. Better passing/playmaking
    4. Removal of desruptive personalites
    5. Removal of overpriced contracts.

    Duhon was brought in to be a pass first/play making PG with good defense and to give management the option to either trade or release Marbury. You may not agree that getting rid of Marbury is the right move, but they consider him disruptive and want a fresh start. Duhon fills several gaps in the team and was available with a contract that will not impede the long term cap goals. He's a stop gap solution fort the next couple of years until they get the PG of the future.

    Gallinari is an outside shooter, playmaker, and passer with some handle. He is multi-talented and fills a lot of the team's needs at SF and eventually PF if he grows and gets stronger.

    A lot of work still needs to be done on the defensive end and with the bad contracts, but Rome was not built in a day. No one promised to turn this around in the first year. If you thought that was possible with the crap Isiah put together, then you don't know the game at all. They still have the rest of the summer to make a trade and take care of some more on the "to do" list.

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Reading the above article makes little sence and no merit for the 2008-9 season Knicks.
    I got banned from the MSG Forum in 2003-4 for my comments on Isiah Thomas trading for Norris, Marbury, and Penny Hardaway, whom all decision making in the backcourt was so bad it became easy for the next team to write up a scouting report to beat the Knicks with the same plan each game. And when Isiah added same move Tim Thomas to the team losses became a streak of consistentcy.
    The 2002-3 Knicks PG-Ward, SG-Houston, SF-Sprewell, and SF/SG-Anderson could have swept Marbury, Norris, Penny Hardaway, and Tim Thomas in a 5 or 7 game series without a sweat.

    I thought the Bulls fans were just joking about Jamal Crawford bad decision making because I barely watched the consistent losing Bulls Team back then.
    But when Crawford became a Knick and I seen his decision making it was clearly worst than Marbury, Penny, and Norris in the backcourt (and that's BAD!). I was suprise the Knicks had won 33 games that season off of Marbury & Kurt Thomas. The next season adding Q.Richardson bad decision making and consistent poor performance made Knick Oponents cancel practice before they played the Knicks. That's no exageration either.

    I will probably be banned from alot of Knick Forums this 2008-9 season because Walsh & D'Antoni decision-making as President & Coach so far this offseason is just as "WHACKED" as Isiah Thomas (at least Isiah would have got the Knicks a decent star with the 6th draft pick). Then I would have Fired him.

    Donnie Walsh and D'Antoni signed two players this offseason in "Duhorn & Roberson". These two guards are players you invite to training camp and preseason to hustle for an open spot on the roster.
    Marty Collins and Nate Robertson only need consistent playingtime in a 8-man rotation to get their confidence level up high enough to play a winning game.
    Nate & Collins decision-making is creative and on the money to confuse any scouting report given to Knicks oponents. Hiring coaches this offseason to train Collins & Nate to what coach D'Antoni expect from them would have been cheaper and gave the two guards a sense of confidence of receiving playingtime this season.
    Signing players that play the same exact role as Collins & Nate is not a bright move.

    This article says nothing about all the coaches that Marbury, Crawford, Q.Rich, and Zach Randolph had in their NBA career which tried to change these players performance on the court to improve their talents and skillz. Which these players refuse to do for any of their previous coaches.
    So if D'Antoni is not like coach Pop, Daly, or Jax, then Knick oponents will beat the Knicks consistently with last year scouting reports on these so-call star Knick players.

    If Donnie Walsh can not trade these bad decision making players:
    Marbury ($21 mill), Zach ($14 mill), Curry ($10 mill), Q.Rich ($9 mill), Crawford ($9 mill), Malik ($8 mill), Jerome ($6 mill), and Jefferies ($6 mill), contracts this offseason, then owner Dolan big brass stock holders will want these players getting playingtime in the 2008-9 season.
    This type of high salary playingtime has been a Knick philosophy since President Chekkett, Grunfeld, Layden, Isiah, and now Walsh.
    This is why Pat Riley quit, and Don Nelson was Fired, Grunfeld was Fired, and Larry Brown was Fired (using a million lineups alongside of Marbury & Curry).
    Im responding to your last paragraph...look Kiyaman everyone wants these players to be traded, but their value is low and their contracts are high...meaning they are very hard to trade. Your friend Isiah who you would rather keep in their for the 2008 draft lmao, screwed this team so bad that Donnie Walsh has to be a genius to make this team just like it was in the 90's as soon as you want it to be. The likely hood is that when 2010 comes around we will have money to get better players and possibly by then we could have traded either Zach, Curry, or Crawford or Collins. These four players still have contracts after the 09-10 season, and Jeffries seems unlikely to trade.
    After this season, Marbury and Malik's contracts would be over so you can cross those guys out as guys Donnie should trade.
    After next season, Q Rich, Jerome James, Nate, Lee, and Roberson's contracts will expire. Jeffries has a huge contract as a bench player and the likelyhood of him being traded is very low, we'd prob have to give up a prospect or 1st round pick with him. The odds are he is staying with us untill his contract is over, you can thank Isiah for that one too.

    In the end, Walsh's plan is better than you think, but it requires time and patience or you will F everything up and nothing will be accomplished for the future. The three main guys that will be problems, not worth their money, and can be traded come 2010-11 season are Zach, Curry, Crawford and Collins...so these guys should be traded eventually. You realize that in two years, we will only have 7 of the 16 guranteed contracts on this team if we kept those 4 players i mentioned before. This gives us ALOT of cap space especially for guys like D-Wade or Lebron and probably more. So have patience, you say Duhon and Roberon were bad moves? When 2010 comes around they might not even be resigned so stop worrying, its all a plan. Duhon is for defense which we struggle at, and Roberson is just on this team to shoot some shots in a couple minutes every other game which we know he can do. These are low risk moves. Duhon might have been overpaid but its not long term like something Isiah would have done. Donnie is planning everything around 2010 so dont worry financially because thats his main focus.

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Reading the above article makes little sence and no merit for the 2008-9 season Knicks.
    I got banned from the MSG Forum in 2003-4 for my comments on Isiah Thomas trading for Norris, Marbury, and Penny Hardaway, whom all decision making in the backcourt was so bad it became easy for the next team to write up a scouting report to beat the Knicks with the same plan each game. And when Isiah added same move Tim Thomas to the team losses became a streak of consistentcy.
    The 2002-3 Knicks PG-Ward, SG-Houston, SF-Sprewell, and SF/SG-Anderson could have swept Marbury, Norris, Penny Hardaway, and Tim Thomas in a 5 or 7 game series without a sweat.

    I thought the Bulls fans were just joking about Jamal Crawford bad decision making because I barely watched the consistent losing Bulls Team back then.
    But when Crawford became a Knick and I seen his decision making it was clearly worst than Marbury, Penny, and Norris in the backcourt (and that's BAD!). I was suprise the Knicks had won 33 games that season off of Marbury & Kurt Thomas. The next season adding Q.Richardson bad decision making and consistent poor performance made Knick Oponents cancel practice before they played the Knicks. That's no exageration either.

    I will probably be banned from alot of Knick Forums this 2008-9 season because Walsh & D'Antoni decision-making as President & Coach so far this offseason is just as "WHACKED" as Isiah Thomas (at least Isiah would have got the Knicks a decent star with the 6th draft pick). Then I would have Fired him.

    Donnie Walsh and D'Antoni signed two players this offseason in "Duhorn & Roberson". These two guards are players you invite to training camp and preseason to hustle for an open spot on the roster.
    Marty Collins and Nate Robertson only need consistent playingtime in a 8-man rotation to get their confidence level up high enough to play a winning game.
    Nate & Collins decision-making is creative and on the money to confuse any scouting report given to Knicks oponents. Hiring coaches this offseason to train Collins & Nate to what coach D'Antoni expect from them would have been cheaper and gave the two guards a sense of confidence of receiving playingtime this season.
    Signing players that play the same exact role as Collins & Nate is not a bright move.

    This article says nothing about all the coaches that Marbury, Crawford, Q.Rich, and Zach Randolph had in their NBA career which tried to change these players performance on the court to improve their talents and skillz. Which these players refuse to do for any of their previous coaches.
    So if D'Antoni is not like coach Pop, Daly, or Jax, then Knick oponents will beat the Knicks consistently with last year scouting reports on these so-call star Knick players.

    If Donnie Walsh can not trade these bad decision making players:
    Marbury ($21 mill), Zach ($14 mill), Curry ($10 mill), Q.Rich ($9 mill), Crawford ($9 mill), Malik ($8 mill), Jerome ($6 mill), and Jefferies ($6 mill), contracts this offseason, then owner Dolan big brass stock holders will want these players getting playingtime in the 2008-9 season.
    This type of high salary playingtime has been a Knick philosophy since President Chekkett, Grunfeld, Layden, Isiah, and now Walsh.
    This is why Pat Riley quit, and Don Nelson was Fired, Grunfeld was Fired, and Larry Brown was Fired (using a million lineups alongside of Marbury & Curry).
    Cosign. Only thing I feel differently about is that I like the Gallo pick, but everything else seems solid to me.

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