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Thread: Christianity in 30 Seconds

  1. #361
    Veteran jpz17's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    If your not going to bother to debate anything meaningful to this debate...why even bother to drop by here??

    This is the problem with society. no one discusses **** anymore. This apathetic live and let live..either you believe or don't mantra. People don't gain knowledge, or discover things by simply just taking them as the truth or not. If this were the case..we'd still be believing the earth is flat, demons cause psychotic episodes, and that exorcism is necessary in every case of strange behavior.

    But if you truly thought this was a waste of time, you wouldn't have posted anything.

    your smart, did you think of that all by yourself!!!!

  2. #362
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    That's still NOT MENTIONING ISRAEL BECOMING A STATE IN 1948...DOES IT SAY SPECIFICALLY ISRAEL WILL AGAIN BECOME A STATE IN 1948?

    IF NOT THEN IT'S NOT SPECIFIC, NOT PROPHETIC. END OF STORY.

    Are you serious? Look at every prophecy ever recorded, does it give you an exact date and time and what the weather is that day, and what they are wearing etc. How detailed do you want a historical find to be???? Do you think everything we know about powers like Rome and Alexander the great are in 100% detail containing everything that happened? NO. That was the dumbest excuse I have heard yet from a guy who boasts about prophecy being false. A prophecy likr this one takes two things and has one representing the other with Dry Bones and Israel. I feel like im talking to a 5 year old. And saying that Israel is dry bones re-forming again is a clear prophecy. Yes, this is end of story because you are too hard-headed on something that was clearly presented to you and you still see it as not true. You have an attitude that makes it impossible for you to accept anything besides your own belief.

  3. #363
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    Below is your post, lyfe. I'm glad you quoted that entire chapter of revelation. My question is, how can you say that Alpha and Omega is different from first and last, when they both mean the same thing? In fact Alpha and Omega is simply a metaphor, created by using the alphabet, of being first and last, creator and destroyer, etc. In that chapter of revelations, Jesus says that he is the first and last, the almighty, who was to come. There are other scriptures, in Isiah, for example, where God's entire being are explained, "the holy ghost" and the "word." You just make the scripture fit the JW theology, at all cost.

    As for my posts about your organization's false prophecies and occult origins, you haven't answered, and these are verifiable facts, not imperfect philosophies. You know what the bible says about false prophecy and witchery, yet you continue to challenge Jehovah's will by following this wicked organization???

    Knicks4Lyfe's Post:

    "(5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be "the first and the last," which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression "apostle" is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title "Alpha and Omega" applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son."

    Entire text of revelation 1:17,18

    1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

    1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Below is your post, lyfe. I'm glad you quoted that entire chapter of revelation. My question is, how can you say that Alpha and Omega is different from first and last, when they both mean the same thing? In fact Alpha and Omega is simply a metaphor, created by using the alphabet, of being first and last, creator and destroyer, etc. In that chapter of revelations, Jesus says that he is the first and last, the almighty, who was to come. There are other scriptures, in Isiah, for example, where God's entire being are explained, "the holy ghost" and the "word." You just make the scripture fit the JW theology, at all cost.
    It's quite simple my friend.
    Collosians 1:15 says this about Jesus:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    Answers.com says
    creature:

    Something created.

    Please tell me how Jesus can be a creature, which means someone created him, but he is somehow that someone who created him. If you can do that, you win the prize.


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    As for my posts about your organization's false prophecies and occult origins, you haven't answered, and these are verifiable facts, not imperfect philosophies. You know what the bible says about false prophecy and witchery, yet you continue to challenge Jehovah's will by following this wicked organization???
    What true prophets foretell comes to pass, but they may not understand just when or how it will be

    Dan. 12:9: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end."

    1 Pet. 1:10, 11: "The prophets . . . kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of season the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these."

    1 Cor. 13:9, 10: "We have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with."

    Prov. 4:18: "The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established."

    The apostles and other early Christian disciples had certain wrong expectations, but the Bible does not classify them with the "false prophets."óSee Luke 19:11; John 21:22, 23; Acts 1:6, 7.

    Nathan the prophet encouraged King David to go ahead with what was in his heart regarding the building of a house for Jehovahís worship. But later Jehovah told Nathan to inform David that he was not the one who would build it. Jehovah did not reject Nathan for what he had said earlier but continued to use him because he humbly corrected the matter when Jehovah made it plain to him.ó1 Chron. 17:1-4, 15.

    The pronouncements of a true prophet promote true worship and are in harmony with Godís revealed will

    Deut. 13:1-4: "In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ĎLet us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,í you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul. After Jehovah your God you should walk, and him you should fear, and his commandments you should keep, and to his voice you should listen, and him you should serve, and to him you should cling."

    Since the Bible says that "a friend of the world" is an enemy of God, are clergymen who urge their parishioners to get involved in the affairs of the world promoting true worship? (Jas. 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17) The true God said that the nations "will have to know that I am Jehovah," and the Bible states that God would take out of the nations "a people for his name," but are religious organizations that minimize the importance of using Godís personal name acting in harmony with this revealed will of God? (Ezek. 38:23; Acts 15:14) Jesus taught his followers to pray for Godís Kingdom, and the Bible cautions against putting oneís trust in earthling men, so are clergymen or political organizations that urge people to place their confidence in human rulership true prophets?óMatt. 6:9, 10; Ps. 146:3-6; compare Revelation 16:13, 14.

    True prophets and the false can be recognized by the fruitage manifest in their lives and the lives of those who follow them

    Matt. 7:15-20: "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheepís covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. . . . Every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit . . . Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men."

    What characterizes their way of life? "The works of the flesh are . . . fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. . . . Those who practice such things will not inherit Godís kingdom. On the other hand, the fruitage of [Godís] spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control."óGal. 5:19-23; see also 2 Peter 2:1-3.

    Have not Jehovahís Witnesses made errors in their teachings?

    Jehovahís Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.óLuke 19:11; Acts 1:6.

    The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christís presence, and Jehovahís Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satanís wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36) Jehovahís Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovahís purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."óMatt. 24:42.

    Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christís ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovahís active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. Godís permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty. Godís Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth.

    Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovahís Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovahís Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves.

  5. #365
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    It's funny how you selectively respond to things.

    First, you did not respond to my request that you explain the difference between alpha and omega and first and last, when I stated that alpha and omega is simply a metaphor for first and last.

    Secondly, as I've cited before, Deuteronomy states 18:20-18:22 states that someone who falsely speaks in God's name will be put to death and should not be feared. So... being as there are plenty of Christian groups who don't make false predictions, how do you continue as a JW?

    Thirdly, it's pretty meaningless that you use the word Jehovah more so than other denominations. As to the fruits of Jehovah's witnesses, I've only seen superficial acts of goodness, which are, as a result, not good. For them to actually be good, they'd have to be performed with full awareness, and sensitivity, towards other human beings, their needs and the action(s) that compassion would dictate one take. However, JW sensitivity is for their theology, nothing else, which is why the truth that has been spoken here has not even budged you. In fact, you've even omitted that which is inconvenient, when answering us.

    I hope you wake up, before you end up trapped by these pack of lies. A friend of mine, former JW, only recently, after years of not educating himself, since he was told the end was near, finally got his degree, began to work for a decent wage and has disassociated himself with the JWs. Unless you want to end up in a similar dynamic of circumstances: beginning life at 38, you should walk away, while you're young. Life is more than God, a lot more.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Sep 03, 2008 at 02:43.

  6. #366
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    Lyfe, how can you call these errors, and not false prophecy? How can an organization be considered changed, when they still claim that Jesus has been ruling invisibly since 1914? If you completely dissolve this organization, and start afresh, maybe you can be considered a new, and respectable, organization. Otherwise, this is your legacy:

    *A 1961 Watchtower magazine article, "How can girls guard against temptation in this sex-crazy world?" compared the way young girls and young men interact sexually to the way cattle do. This demeaning article invokes belly laughs from non-JWs.

    *In the early 1950s, the long-standing teaching that God lives on the star Alcyone in the Pleiades constellation was formally jettisoned: A belief related to the theosophical society, formed in 1875, around the same time as the precursor to the JWs was formed by Charles Taze Russell. The Theosophists named a boy chosen as their "world teacher" Alcyone. This boy was supposed to herald the return of Christ. Later, he rejected the title and claimed it was falsely attached to him.

    *In the early 1950s, the long-standing claim that vaccinations are a work of the devil was abandoned. This was to facilitate travel by Watchtower officials, who had to have certificates of vaccination for international travel.

    *In 1945, the notion that vaccinations violate "the everlasting covenant between God and Noah" was applied to blood transfusions, and over the next decade this was gradually built into a complete ban on transfusions.

    *In 1929, the teaching that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was built at God's direction and was an important marker in "Bible chronology" was changed to be that the Great Pyramid was the work of the devil.

    *Beginning in the 1920s, in the magazine "The Golden Age", the Society hawked all sorts of quack medical ideas, claiming that the medical establishment was a complete fraud.

    *In the 1920s, the Society recommended a bizzare, quack machine called "The Electronic Radio Biola" as a cure for all sorts of chronic diseases.

    *In 1876, the founder and first president of the Watchtower Society, Charles Taze Russell, began claiming that Christ had returned invisibly to the earth in 1874. In 1943, the Society changed this date to 1914. Russell's teaching was based on the failed prediction of his mentor, an Adventist named Nelson Barbour, that Christ would return visibly in 1874.

    *In 1877, Russell claimed that Armageddon would begin in 1878. When that failed to happen, he claimed it did, but invisibly.

    *In 1877, Russell predicted the complete end of all nations by 1914. This became a staple of Bible Student teaching. When that failed to occur, Russell's followers gradually decided that the end had occurred, but invisibly.

    *In 1877, Russell predicted that the long-awaited "resurrection of the saints" would occur in 1878.

    *In 1878, when "the saints" failed to appear, Russell predicted that they'd appear in 1881. When that failed, he claimed that they were indeed resurrected, but invisibly.

    When "the end" failed to appear in 1914 but WWI began, Russell claimed that Armageddon had begun, and predicted it would end in 1918.

    *In 1918, Joseph Rutherford, second president of the Watchtower Society, began an advertising campaign called "Millions Now Living Will Never Die". He predicted that Armageddon would occur in 1925.

    *Between 1918 and 1925, many Bible Students prepared for "the end" by selling their property and engaging in preaching for the "Millions" campaign. When 1925 rolled past uneventfully, nearly 3/4 of the Bible Students quit.

    *After 1925, Rutherford emphasized that very soon, the "ancient worthies" such as Abraham, Samuel and David would soon be resurrected and take over the governing of the earth.

    *In 1929, the Society began work on a mansion for Rutherford to live in, in San Diego. This came to be called Beth Sarim.

    *About 1930, Rutherford formally deeded Beth Sarim to "the ancient worthies" and described how his followers should recognize them.

    Beth Sarim was initially described in Watchtower publications as a home for "the ancient worthies".

    Today the Society describes Beth Sarim as a home for Rutherford. According to some sources, that's probably closer to the truth, because Rutherford, as a drunk and adulterer, was a thorn in the side of his underlings.

    *In the early 1940s, the Society built a bomb shelter for Rutherford on a property near Beth Sarim and called it Beth Shan. They later claimed that they never built such a thing.

    *In 1967 the Society banned organ transplants, calling the practice cannibalism. The policy was reversed in 1979.

    *In 1971 the Society began teaching that the physical heart is the seat of human emotion, and carries on "conversations" with the physical brain, which determines what a person does. This teaching was illustrated at the 1971 district conventions with a giant green brain and a giant red heart on the speaker's platform, where during the introductory speech, a dialog was played with the heart and brain "talking" to one another. During the speech, the heart would light up when it "talked" and the brain would light up when it "conversed".

    *In 1971, the Society began a program of instructing the JW community what to do and not do sexually, in embarrassing detail. Oral and anal sex were described in public talks, and condemned. Over the next few years this resulted in the opposite of what they intended in some cases, and in others to the disintegration of marriages. After a number of lawsuits by injured non-JW marriage partners, the Society largely abandoned these teachings in the early 1980s.

    *In 1966, the Society began predicting that "big things" would come not later than 1975. By the next year, this had grown into a nearly definite prediction that the battle of Armageddon would come by 1975. When that failed to happen, the rapid growth of the JWs in the years between 1967 and 1975 reversed.

    *In 1993 to 1995, upon realizing that its teachings about "the generation of 1914" were about to go down the tubes, the Society drastically revised its ideas, and made the idea virtually meaningless. Most JWs barely noticed.

    By Alan Feurbacher

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    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Sep 03, 2008 at 02:00.

  7. #367
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    OG, what is your main reason for not having a strong Christian faith that you have moved away from which you explained to me?

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    Well, Paul, as I've gotten older, and have learned more and more about the world, its history, people, and religion, the reasons have grown exponentially.

    Initially, however, my reason for leaving Christianity was that I never really believed in the bible and its claims. I remember praying, as a little child, when in very difficult circumstances, and not having my prayers answered. Ever since, doubt lingered in me, as to whether the bible was the truth of our origins. As I entered my teenage years, doubt was coupled with my feeling that the bible was cruel, racist: preferring the Jewish race over others, sexist and intolerant. Christians that I encountered felt threatened by what I was pointing out and felt it was heresy.

    Around age 22, I began to try to take a serious look at Christianity, tried a few different churches, and it just felt wrong, I felt imprisoned, threatened (with either hell or being banned from heaven), controlled and as if I was being asked to forsake truth for something that I just couldn't bring myself to believe in.

    I also felt that not one Christian that I encountered actually knew anything about truth, compassion, sacrifice: they spoke of it, gave examples but could not unite the act with the mind and heart, thus making it moot. I began my way on a spiritual journey, first with Buddhist and Hindu texts, such as the Bhagavad Gita and the Lotus Sutra, and moved on to the writings of Jiddu and U.G. Krishnamurti, as well as other spiritual thinkers. I've also helped to arrange meetings on spiritual matters, in addition to attending meetings put together by other like-minded people.

    I still look at the bible as a text with spiritual value, especially when you use it as a piece of a much larger puzzle, but I don't believe in it, when it comes to talking bushes, invisible men, demons, saviors, heaven, hell, spirits, etc. Ultimately, I feel religion: JWs, Catholics, other Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc., strip their humanity for the religious title, just as we do with ethnic and racial labels. We do the same with others. This is why labels, and the ideologies that come along with them, have proved to be so destructive.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Sep 03, 2008 at 02:41.

  9. #369
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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    It's funny how you selectively respond to things.

    First, you did not respond to my request that you explain the difference between alpha and omega and first and last, when I stated that alpha and omega is simply a metaphor for first and last.

    Secondly, as I've cited before, Deuteronomy states 18:20-18:22 states that someone who falsely speaks in God's name will be put to death and should not be feared. So... being as there are plenty of Christian groups who don't make false predictions, how do you continue as a JW?

    Thirdly, it's pretty meaningless that you use the word Jehovah more so than other denominations. As to the fruits of Jehovah's witnesses, I've only seen superficial acts of goodness, which are, as a result, not good. For them to actually be good, they'd have to be performed with full awareness, and sensitivity, towards other human beings, their needs and the action(s) that compassion would dictate one take. However, JW sensitivity is for their theology, nothing else, which is why the truth that has been spoken here has not even budged you. In fact, you've even omitted that which is inconvenient, when answering us.

    I hope you wake up, before you end up trapped by these pack of lies. A friend of mine, former JW, only recently, after years of not educating himself, since he was told the end was near, finally got his degree, began to work for a decent wage and has disassociated himself with the JWs. Unless you want to end up in a similar dynamic of circumstances: beginning life at 38, you should walk away, while you're young. Life is more than God, a lot more.
    If you really paid attention to the alpha post, you would understand our viewpoint fully.

    So basically, just like everyone else who thinks Jesus is God, you have no clue of why Jesus is said to be a creation? You have not answered this, ABCD, Paul, no one. Yet, I'm part of the stupid group who twist the bible here? Everyone else here has all the answers, yet not one of you more intelligent beings can tell me how Jesus is said to be a creature, but is somehow also the creator? Let everyone tell it in the thread, I'm the dumbest guy in the room. Yet the slow guy is waiting on all the fast talkers to provide logical answers for me. There is not one reply to how Jesus is said to be a creature. NOT 1! WHEN IS IT COMING?

    This is exactly why I am proud, VERY PROUD JEHOVAH'S WITNESS! Because at least for once, someone has answers that just make sense.

    And until I see something better, I'll stick around for awhile.

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Well, Paul, as I've gotten older, and have learned more and more about the world, its history, people, and religion, the reasons have grown exponentially.

    Initially, however, my reason for leaving Christianity was that I never really believed in the bible and its claims. I remember praying, as a little child, when in very difficult circumstances, and not having my prayers answered. Ever since, doubt lingered in me, as to whether the bible was the truth of our origins. As I entered my teenage years, doubt was coupled with my feeling that the bible was cruel, racist: preferring the Jewish race over others, sexist and intolerant. Christians that I encountered felt threatened by what I was pointing out and felt it was heresy.

    Around age 22, I began to try to take a serious look at Christianity, tried a few different churches, and it just felt wrong, I felt imprisoned, threatened (with either hell or being banned from heaven), controlled and as if I was being asked to forsake truth for something that I just couldn't bring myself to believe in.

    I also felt that not one Christian that I encountered actually knew anything about truth, compassion, sacrifice: they spoke of it, gave examples but could not unite the act with the mind and heart, thus making it moot. I began my way on a spiritual journey, first with Buddhist and Hindu texts, such as the Bhagavad Gita and the Lotus Sutra, and moved on to the writings of Jiddu and U.G. Krishnamurti, as well as other spiritual thinkers. I've also helped to arrange meetings on spiritual matters, in addition to attending meetings put together by other like-minded people.

    I still look at the bible as a text with spiritual value, especially when you use it as a piece of a much larger puzzle, but I don't believe in it, when it comes to talking bushes, invisible men, demons, saviors, heaven, hell, spirits, etc. Ultimately, I feel religion: JWs, Catholics, other Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc., strip their humanity for the religious title, just as we do with ethnic and racial labels. We do the same with others. This is why labels, and the ideologies that come along with them, have proved to be so destructive.
    Hey OG, i like how you basically outlined your life in that post. I know many people like you that have searched and searched for something that you felt was right spiritually. You always feel an emptiness because you have people telling you that there is no God but yet in your heart and mind you always have the thought of a possiblility of a GOD. The problem is which God is the right one. Now by reading your story it seems like you were never guided by a true follower of Biblical Chrsitianity that stressed the RELATIONSHIP with God and not the religion because it is a personal relationship, not a religion. James 4:8 says that if you draw near to God that he will draw near to you, but if you go away from God then he won't draw near to you.
    I recommend you reading a story in John 1:35-39 were it talks about two men who confront Jesus. And Jesus said to them "What do you seek?" or in other words "What are you looking for?' And then Jesus said "come and you will see." My faith being an Evangelical Christian is one were I don't add or take out the words of the Bible. The Bible says that if followers of Christ do that, that they would be cursed. I believe Jesus is my best friend because he died for my sins. He is my personal savior and by believing in him, I have eternal life. You see, it's the ONLY belief were you don't have to work to get into a heaven or paradise. You see every religion: JW's, Catholics, Muslims they all work for salvation. Read Acts 4:12. Religion is man trying to find God. My belief which is of an Evangelical Chrsitian is not a religion but a personal relationship with Jesus, my God, my Savior, and my best friend. And that's what I feel seperates my belief from every other. I don't have to work for His love and salvation. I can just say what's in Romans 10:9-10 and right there, I am saved. That's all it takes.
    Also read Titus 3:5 which is very important and the basic reason why I talk about grace and salvation.

    I'm glad you haven't given up hope and I pray that one day, Jesus may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of who Jesus is. And that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance and what is the surpassing greatness of His power towards you when you believe on Him.

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    Colossians 1:15-20, New international version

    15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.



    #1. You still haven't addressed the difference between the Alpha and Omega and the title "beginning and the end," when it comes to Jesus.

    #2. You still haven't answered for the JWs false prophecies and God's instruction that false prophets will be put to death, but, in regards to the passage that you cited, the above section clearly describes Jesus as part of God's manifestation of himself/itself. Here, he says that Jesus is his image, that Jesus is the creator of all things and that he is before all things. It also says the he is the head of the Church. The writer also references, once again, to the alpha and omega, by saying that Jesus is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead (in other words that he is the first when it comes to a new beginning, that which is one with the end). It also states that things were created by him and for him, implying that the bible's God has more than one manifestation of his being, one that can create something for Jesus, the other manifestation of God's being. The problem you're having is that you think of God as a man, as you would yourself.




    I don't believe in any of this stuff, either way, except as valuable spiritual symbolism and ancient thought that, unfortunately, has lost its meaning to most of us, but you can't argue for the JW dogma, anymore so than you can for the trinity dogma. In fact, even though I'm not a believer, I think the trinity actually makes the most sense, unless one believes in more than one creator, since Jesus is named the creator, as well as he who had everything created for him.




    As for what you follow, it's your business. I'm just trying to help you to free and wake yourself up, as I've explained in the past. I've made my points. If you want to avoid answering them, to yourself, more than anyone else, fine.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Sep 03, 2008 at 04:10.

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    Originally Posted by jpz17
    your smart, did you think of that all by yourself!!!!
    U r clogging the thread with these useless posts. Period. Don't get your panties into a bunch. Don't waste thread space when your no going to say anything relevant.

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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Are you serious? Look at every prophecy ever recorded, does it give you an exact date and time and what the weather is that day, and what they are wearing etc. How detailed do you want a historical find to be???? Do you think everything we know about powers like Rome and Alexander the great are in 100% detail containing everything that happened? NO. That was the dumbest excuse I have heard yet from a guy who boasts about prophecy being false. A prophecy likr this one takes two things and has one representing the other with Dry Bones and Israel. I feel like im talking to a 5 year old. And saying that Israel is dry bones re-forming again is a clear prophecy. Yes, this is end of story because you are too hard-headed on something that was clearly presented to you and you still see it as not true. You have an attitude that makes it impossible for you to accept anything besides your own belief.
    I don't know how much more of answer on this you want me to give. Your metaphoric ass prophecies are not prophecies, not from a divine source either. I've already explained WHILE USING MY USUAL FLAWLESS LOGIC as to what would have to be contained in them in order for them to qualify.

    And somehow you want me to come to the understanding that these primitive people whom the only way they would've got advanced knowledge from a GOD....but are not exact on the details..were prophetic.

    It's nothing more than folks making observations, and requires loose interpretations by the reader of today. The only way your prophecy holds up is that like a piece of bubble gum you've got to stretch it all the way out...damn near before it breaks in order to encompass the passage.

    If you cannot understand this concept, then what's the point?

    A prophecy has to be specific in order to be true. It cannot be a loose metaphor, or ad hominem. PERIOD.


    Your are not realizing without the exactness, the prophecy cannot be a prophecy at all...it becomes nothing more than poetic notions of a possibility that people were coming to at the time.

    I see a nation get defeated I gotta conclude one day they'll come back to re-conquer...not that difficult to understand that.

    You are a 5 year old you still believe in this bull**** as a supposedly grown ass adult. How many more ways you want to keep shooting yourself in the foot??

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    Paul, thanks; but I've studied Christianity, at length, and I can't bind myself to it, because I see no evidence. I'm the type of person that needs evidence, or I can't believe. I also feel that Christianity was forced on my people, in Latin America, and I'm not willing to follow, just because 400 years have passed. I don't think truth is static, that it can be contained in a book or in a person. I'm going to continue trying to live morally and ethically, I'll live and die by my values. However, I cannot do something that's against my conscience. Even if the bible's God is real, I don't know that I want to live forever, especially if it means living with most of humanity, which has turned out to be a very depraved species.

    All right, over and out.

    Just wanted to add that I respect what you have to say about not needing an organization, especially in light of what some of these organizations, like the JW, do to people. Look at lyfe, they've taken this young man and told him that, without the JW organization, there is no way, all when Jesus said "I am the truth (another of God's titles) and the way." I think if you're going to be a real Christian, you have to have that personal understanding, like what you said, Paul. If you don't, you're just sitting on a bench, passively, as opposed to actively, listening.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Sep 03, 2008 at 08:09.

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    Why do you people continue to challenge me as if you are actually going to win? Just like I said to be in a relationship with god, coincides greatly with battered spouse syndrome. Just think about that for a while folks.Getting back to my point about FAILED..that is WRONG/FALSE/INCORRECT biblical prophecy!!!

    In short there is no Old Testament prophecy which point to Yeshua ha Notzri (JESUS) who lived around the first three decades of the first century as a messiah or as a divine person.Let's go through them one by one...(WARNING THIS IS GOING TO TAKE MORE THAN ONE POSTING).Many of the prophecies presented "AS Evidence" could be easily dismissed as mere wishful thinking.

    Let us look at a few:

    Jesus' Pre-Existence

    The prophecy given here is from Micah 5:2. This is the verse as given in his book:[6]

    Micah 5:2
    From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His going forths are from long ago, From the days of eternity.

    The "fulfillment" of this prophecy is supposedly the passage below:

    Colossians 1:7
    And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

    Amazing! AN anonymous author in the New Testament makes for fulfilled prophecy! Even if the author is Paul, the passage is nothing more than an empty assertion. It takes someone really gullible and seeped in the belief of biblical inerrancy to even to begin to consider this to be a case of prophecy fulfillment.

    That is not the only problem with the passage. Modern translations such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) showed no such allusion of the messiah's pre-existence:

    Micah 5:2 NRSV
    from you shall come forth for me, one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.

    The passage, as read in the NRSV, simply shows that the messiah's ancestors are ancient. The Good News Bible (GNB) translates this even more clearly:

    Micah 5:2 GNB
    but out of one of you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family line goes back to ancient times.

    Jesus Called Immanuel

    Isaiah 7:14
    "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin is with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel".

    SUPPOSED FULFILLMENT...

    Matthew 1:22-23
    And this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin is with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel-which means 'God is with us'".

    Another startling and puzzling assertion. With this passage he claimed that Jesus was called Immanuel. But Matthew's passage was simply a repeat of the passage from Isaiah and nowhere else in the gospels was Jesus ever referred to by that name. Clearly the claim is meaningless and nonsensical.

    Jesus as Priest

    The Old Testament passage is this:

    Psalms 110:4
    "The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, 'Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."

    The supposed fulfillment, get this(!), is:

    Hebrews 5:5-6
    "So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high Priest, but He who said to Him, 'Thou art My Son, today I have begotten Thee'; just as He says also in another passage, 'Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchidezek.'"

    Seated at the Right Hand of God

    Here the "prophecy" is also in Psalms:

    Psalm 110:1
    "The Lord says to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."

    The supposed fulfillment:

    Hebrews 1:3
    "...When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high

    Again an unfounded assertion by an anonymous author about Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is taken as a "fulfillment". Pure nonsense.

    This is just a handful of the false and stupid New Testament one's..next posting will address some of the one's from the OLD TESTAMENT that many evangelicals used, and still use to fit Jesus's life.

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