Christianity in 30 Seconds

Paul1355

All Star
You consider emptiness, in other words the state of being unburdened, the cause of problems in people who carry the burdens of addiction and poor decision making?

You weren't empty, when you made bad decisions: you were a liar or selfish, whatever, but you weren't empty. Emptiness is actually freedom. In order to truly appreciate something, you must be empty, free of preconceptions and prejudice.

You can try to attack me all you want, but you clearly have nothing on me, when it comes to experience. Anyone who reads these these posts, I'm sure, will agree. Satan? Doing anything without a bible is Satan?

Read carefully. Life, Paul, is more than the bible and church. The point of life is simply to live. For someone to live fully his life must be, at the least, about much more than the church.

As for me being a blank sheet of paper, that's a crazy statement. I used those examples as metaphors for those things that provide one the opportunity to create. If you didn't get that, something's wrong.

I never attacked you, I defended myself and that is what many Atheist do to Christians, it's common. I asked a simple question to Turner and then he fires a shot at me saying I have no purpose in life when i clearly explained what My purpose in life was. The point of life is to live for the creator that created you, not for yourself. Just believe in Him, and you will live in happiness and joy, it's simple. We have free will, but that is why God is so great, he is not forcing you to believe in him. He is giving you the opportunity to not suffer the pain in hell. It is your choice whether you want to accept it or not. It is scary to think that either you have to accept the word of God or suffer pain, well there is pain and happiness, good and evil, up and down, darkness and light, and you have to eventually choose a side.

By empty I mean you aren't filled with the Holy Spirit and understanding of the truth, the word, and the glory of God. The reason for why we are here. The reason for this world and the universe it is in with all of the trillions of stars that rest in it lighting up the sky ever night as a proven miracle.

I hope one day you will understand.
 

OGKnickfan

Enlightened
I don't believe in your God of Israel, and I never will. I also refuse to believe in something out of fear or selfishness. It's scary that you do. I'm willing to believe in something, if it's real and proven, good and pure, out of my own free will, not as the result of threats. I'm not willing to believe in something, just because it feels good or because it threatens me with pain.

I've heard the logic that says, if you follow and it's real, you get rewarded; but, if it's fake, you just die and didn't really lose out on anything. Well, you do lose out, on real spirituality, real freedom, a search for truth, as well as many other things.
 
Following truth is not about choices or willpower. There is also no "way" to truth. Again, truth is yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and, regardless of how much you want to see it through the lens of a book, the Hindu, the Buddhist and the Muslim, as well as the atheist and the spiritual seeker, can all glimpse truth.
Do Jehovah?s Witnesses believe that their religion is the only right one?

The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Ephesians 4:5 says there is "one Lord, one faith." Jesus stated: "Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. . . . Not everyone saying to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."?Matt. 7:13, 14, 21; see also 1 Corinthians 1:10. (Jesus basically implies that the way to life is through him and his Father. No one else)

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to the body of true Christian teachings as "the truth," and Christianity is spoken of as "the way of the truth." (1 Tim. 3:15; 2 John 1; 2 Pet. 2:2) Because Jehovah?s Witnesses base all of their beliefs, their standards for conduct, and organizational procedures on the Bible, their faith in the Bible itself as God?s Word gives them the conviction that what they have is indeed the truth. So their position is not egotistical but demonstrates their confidence that the Bible is the right standard against which to measure one?s religion. They are not self-centered but are eager to share their beliefs with others.​

As for Jesus being a JW, he claimed to be the son of man, not the son of a witness.

How old is the religion of Jehovah?s Witnesses?

According to the Bible, the line of witnesses of Jehovah reaches back to faithful Abel. Hebrews 11:4?12:1 says: "By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain . . . By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear . . . By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance . . . By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin . . . So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us."

With reference to Jesus Christ, the Bible states: "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God." Of whom was he a witness? He himself said that he made his Father?s name manifest. He was the foremost witness of Jehovah.?Rev. 3:14; John 17:6.

Interestingly, some of the Jews asked whether the activity of Jesus Christ represented "a new teaching." (Mark 1:27) Later, some Greeks thought the apostle Paul was introducing a "new teaching." (Acts 17:19, 20) It was new to the ears of those who were hearing it, but the important thing was that it was the truth, in full harmony with God?s Word.

The modern-day history of Jehovah?s Witnesses began with the forming of a group for Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., in the early 1870?s. At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah?s Witnesses. (Isa. 43:10-12) Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity.​


He said that he was the way, not that you and your friends can get together and become the way. Your organization believes that it is life, going so far as to control its members every action. Newsflash: life is more than a book or religion.
Jehovah's witnesses do not seek their own glory. For some reason you appear to be trying to attribute that to us. We as an organization follow Christ's lead in doing his Father's will. Jesus said that those who do this will inherit the Kingdom.(see above) Not our words, Jesus'.

By the way, I know many witnesses, and I actually know a woman who was around in the 30s, during Rutherford's reign as president. She has told me, after I flipped the tables on her prostylization, that from years of following the organization that her life had become nothing more than the organization, that, if she left, she would would have nothing. The world exists outside of the bible and the church, it always has and it still does.
Because learning THE TRUTH has helped her realize "the world" outside of it offers nothing of lasting worth. 1 john 2;17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.People in "the world" are fed up with it, imagine how one would feel knowing truth, but abandoning it for a world that is passing away?

The Bible says that Christ?s disciples would be no part of the world, and it warns that whoever wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God(jas 4:4) Once a person has truly come to know Jehovah, they would never out of love for him want to involve themselves with his enemy's world.

And quite honestly, by listening to Jesus, we are prepared for persecution from the world based on our beliefs because he himself was persecuted for the same.

Jesus said: "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you." (John 15:18, 19; see also 1 Peter 4:3, 4.)

The Bible shows that the whole world lies under Satan?s control; he is the principal instigator of the persecution.?1 John 5:19; Rev. 12:17.

Jesus also told his disciples: "You will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name." (Mark 13:13) The word "name" here means what Jesus officially is, the Messianic King. Persecution comes because Jehovah?s Witnesses put his commands ahead of those of any earthly ruler.​


TRUTH does not write books, people do.
2 Tim 3: 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

So while men did write the bible, all inspiration is credited to it's TRUE author, Jehovah. Who is truth.

A return to humanity is easy to comprehend to whoever really wants to know: an end to titles, positions, ideologies, that define us as more, or less, than a human being: no race consciousness, no elders, followers, leaders, except as nominal, meaningless positions... humanity would mean that being a person would be something no one could take from anyone and would come ahead of everything, including your group: the Jehovah's Witnesses. By the way, the name is really Yahweh, you use the wrong pronunciation.

I again respect your opinion. But philosophy of man always falls short of the wisdom of God.
 

TunerAddict

Starter
I never attacked you, I defended myself and that is what many Atheist do to Christians, it's common. I asked a simple question to Turner and then he fires a shot at me saying I have no purpose in life when i clearly explained what My purpose in life was. The point of life is to live for the creator that created you, not for yourself. Just believe in Him, and you will live in happiness and joy, it's simple. We have free will, but that is why God is so great, he is not forcing you to believe in him. He is giving you the opportunity to not suffer the pain in hell. It is your choice whether you want to accept it or not. It is scary to think that either you have to accept the word of God or suffer pain, well there is pain and happiness, good and evil, up and down, darkness and light, and you have to eventually choose a side.

By empty I mean you aren't filled with the Holy Spirit and understanding of the truth, the word, and the glory of God. The reason for why we are here. The reason for this world and the universe it is in with all of the trillions of stars that rest in it lighting up the sky ever night as a proven miracle.

I hope one day you will understand.


Yeah, a simple question. Bullshit. You were insinuating your superiority over and hinting that my life was void because I don't get hard thinking about a magical sky daddy. You ventured into the point where we went to personal attacks.

And me saying you're life is worthless really isn't an insult when I'm saying EVERYONE'S lives are pointless and meaningless. Its not a personal thing, it is a philosophical view. Me stating you're clinging to religion because of fear was however.
 

Paul1355

All Star
I don't believe in your God of Israel, and I never will. I also refuse to believe in something out of fear or selfishness. It's scary that you do. I'm willing to believe in something, if it's real and proven, good and pure, out of my own free will, not as the result of threats. I'm not willing to believe in something, just because it feels good or because it threatens me with pain.

I've heard the logic that says, if you follow and it's real, you get rewarded; but, if it's fake, you just die and didn't really lose out on anything. Well, you do lose out, on real spirituality, real freedom, a search for truth, as well as many other things.

Well do what you want that's the point of free will. We should all fear God because certain sins are greater than others, such as thwarting the Bible and preaching it like some so called "Christian" believers do, and God will punish them for that. But I don't believe in him because of fear of sinning even though I do fear him if I sin, I believe in Him because of His Everlasting Love. Not fear.
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
Well do what you want that's the point of free will. We should all fear God because certain sins are greater than others, such as thwarting the Bible and preaching it like some so called "Christian" believers do, and God will punish them for that. But I don't believe in him because of fear of sinning even though I do fear him if I sin, I believe in Him because of His Everlasting Love. Not fear.

You're scared. Scared to embrace the reality of the situation. Still being tormented by demons of your own mind, raised in a culture that encouraged these kinds of thoughts. Not every human can be saved from the psychological condition that render human beings utterly useless in that they've still yet to escape the thoughts of their primitive superstitious ancestors.

You say you believe in him because of his everlasting love...well how much everlasting love could there possibly be if he still leaves hell open for business?

If he was that forgiving as you folks make him out to be, there would be NO HELL. PERIOD. But GOD was not constructed to in such a way to be a friend to humanity, but as an authoritative parent figure...in order to scare, manipulate, control people actions.

Because quite simply people had not yet evolved into the ideas of brotherhood quite yet. Humans were very much still a mercenary society, barbarous. Religion arose to try and combat this...by any means necessary.

Maybe those at the time did this in order to save, problem is people have not let go...and we FOR THE MOST PART have evolved and no longer need religion to guide us. Granted religion is poetic, and some parts beautiful illustrations of human creativity and speech. But when something asks humans to deny their rational, logical self..and by sheer force accept something quite contradictory...it itself has become the evil it may was once trying to protect us from until we arrived intellectually to where we are today.

But traditionalism has such a strangehold on society...you have folks out there..whom believe that cutting a woman's clitoris is appropriate...that women are subservient to men, that homosexuals are lessor human beings, that their is a "superior aryan race", that molestation by church officials is not as rampant.

I've often found that the folks who walk around asking WWJD...need to STFU. And JUST DO WJWD. But they are only are interested in asking the question...so they can tell other folks to do it..so they don't have to. Don't talk about it be about it, for folks to believe so much in his message..while at times good..other's horrifying..mythical as I know him to be...a good message is a good message. Whether it be from Albert Einstein or Bugs Bunny.

But religion as a whole, is cruelty. If their is a god in the slight miscalculation...religion has given him the shittiest PR job ever done.

But getting back on topic for a moment...

Where is the book of Jesus?

You mean to tell me that his supposed disciples had mastered the art of writing and yet..this demi-god had no command of being able to write? Based on logic..if you don't want other's screwing up your great work by messing up what you're trying to say...WRITE IT YOURSELF.

This at bare minimum has to make Jesus not omnipotent, which then means he can't possibly be GOD in the flesh because he would have saw it coming. Then if he just simply chose not to write...why do Matthew and Luke disagree about place of birth? You would think after sitting down with these two to carry on his message...he would've gave them one answer and straightened this out!

And another thing...why crucify yourself before your message reaches the whole world? Surely a GOD, would've known about the people's of North America and South America..Austrailia...not getting his message. SURELY, he would've said...well I'll let them catch and crucify me after I've traveled the world and got my message out. But no this did not happen according to scripture.

Then the even larger problem on top of all this...GOD's can't die. So to say he was crucified has to be complete and utter bullsh*t. Immortals can't die. Period. Now if he could....and you want to go on the whole tangent of GOD assuming physical form makes him weaker..well then there goes the "all powerful" argument.

That would mean to then..Jesus had a couple of girls on the side. WINK. And after he was crucified on the cross...why come back in 3 days? Why just not die at all? Surely if the Romans tried to have kept killing him....he would've just stayed alive...and no matter what they would've done..he'd be alive. SO WHY FAKE YOUR OWN DEATH?

The more questions like these that become raised, the more I find this bullsh*t..pardon the pun..HOLY UNBELIEVABLE.
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
A person that believes he is his own God or that there is no God whatsoever should not even comment. In the end you won't be laughing my friend.

Why should they not? What makes you any more qualified? Surely your lack of scientific understanding did not stop you from commenting and critiquing such. No book of faith takes great intellectual comprehension. All religious texts are written at a 4th grade reading level. So that 5th grade English grammar book is far superior to the bible.

Also second point, REMEMBER YOU DON'T KNOW. Because if you KNEW..it would BE FACTUAL..NOT FAITHFUL. So if you KNOW with any certainty, which makes it a FACT, MEANS IT IS up for harsh scientific and logical scrutiny. Now if you want to suggest..it's what you BELIEVE is going to happen...or you have FAITH what will happen in the END..FINE. But to speak so finitely about this suggests...what you are saying is factual, and can be tested and proven. And we all KNOW you'll get slaughtered if you take that road.
 
You say you believe in him because of his everlasting love...well how much everlasting love could there possibly be if he still leaves hell open for business?

If he was that forgiving as you folks make him out to be, there would be NO HELL. PERIOD.

Hell
Definition:​
The word "hell" is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read "the grave," "the world of the dead," and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered "hell"; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she?ohl? and its Greek equivalent hai?des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge?en?na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).
Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going." (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*"Sheol," AS, RS, NE, JB; "the grave," KJ, Kx; "hell," Dy; "the world of the dead," TEV.)
Ps. 146:4: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish." (*"Thoughts," KJ, 145:4 in Dy; "schemes," JB; "plans," RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body

Ezek. 18:4: "The soul* that is sinning?it itself will die." (*"Soul," KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; "the man," JB; "the person," TEV.)

"The concept of ?soul,? meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ?body,? . . . does not exist in the Bible."?La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.​

"Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ?soul,? it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ?soul? but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ?life,? or ?vitality,? or, at times, ?the self.?"?The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

What sort of people go to the Bible hell?

Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: "The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God." (*"Hell," 9:18 in Dy; "death," TEV; "the place of death," Kx; "Sheol," AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?

Job 14:13, Dy: "[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?" (God himself said that Job was "a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad."?Job 1:8.) (*"The grave," KJ; "the world of the dead," TEV; "Sheol," AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: "David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (The fact that God did not "leave" Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*"Hell," Dy; "death," NE; "the place of death," Kx; "the world of the dead," TEV; "Hades," AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: "The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*"Hell," Dy, Kx; "the world of the dead," TEV; "Hades," NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

"Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception."?The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she?ohl? as "hell," "the grave," and "the pit"; hai?des is therein rendered both "hell" and "grave"; ge?en?na is also translated "hell." (2) Today?s English Version transliterates hai?des as "Hades" and also renders it as "hell" and "the world of the dead." But besides rendering "hell" from hai?des it uses that same translation for ge?en?na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai?des six times, but in other passages it translates it as "hell" and as "the underworld." It also translates ge?en?na as "hell," as it does hai?des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?
Matt. 25:46, KJ: "These shall go away into everlasting punishment ["lopping off," Int; Greek, ko?la?sin]: but the righteous into life eternal." (The Emphatic Diaglott reads "cutting-off" instead of "punishment." A footnote states: "Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;?hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.")

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." (*"Eternal ruin," NAB, NE; "lost eternally," JB; "condemn them to eternal punishment," Kx; "eternal punishment in destruction," Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God?s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were "destroyed"; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ?eternal torment? referred to in Revelation?

Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa?ni?smou?] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

What is the ?torment? to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ?prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.? Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic "beast and his image" are said to be "tormented with fire and brimstone." This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because "the dead know not any thing." (Eccl. 9:5, KJ)

Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God?s servants that worshipers of the "beast and his image" will experience second death, which is represented by "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ?torment forever and ever? in "the lake of fire and brimstone," what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" means "the second death." So the Devil?s being "tormented" there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word "torment" (from the Greek ba?sa?nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ?jailer.??RS, AT, ED, NW.

What is the ?fiery Gehenna? to which Jesus referred?

Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression ge?en?nan tou py?ros? as "hell fire" (KJ, Dy), "fires of hell" (NE), "fiery pit" (AT), and "fires of Gehenna" (NAB).

Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one?s "whole body" into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.

At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to "be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ?fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.? By referring to the "soul" separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person?s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ?fiery Gehenna? have the same meaning as ?the lake of fire? of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, "second death."

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?
Rom. 6:23: "The wages sin pays is death."

After one?s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?
Rom. 6:7: "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin."

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God?s personality?
Jer. 7:31: "They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into God?s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child?s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? "God is love." (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?


Is​
the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a "parable in story form without reference to any historical personage." If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one?s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you?

If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.​

What
does the parable mean? The "rich man" represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.?Acts 5:33; 7:54.

What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the "nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the

fiery aspect of Christendom?s(All falls Christianity) hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.?La civilt? etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.
But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means "Slanderer"), the one whom Jesus Christ called "the father of the lie."?John 8:44.​
 

Paul1355

All Star
Why should they not? What makes you any more qualified? Surely your lack of scientific understanding did not stop you from commenting and critiquing such. No book of faith takes great intellectual comprehension. All religious texts are written at a 4th grade reading level. So that 5th grade English grammar book is far superior to the bible.

Also second point, REMEMBER YOU DON'T KNOW. Because if you KNEW..it would BE FACTUAL..NOT FAITHFUL. So if you KNOW with any certainty, which makes it a FACT, MEANS IT IS up for harsh scientific and logical scrutiny. Now if you want to suggest..it's what you BELIEVE is going to happen...or you have FAITH what will happen in the END..FINE. But to speak so finitely about this suggests...what you are saying is factual, and can be tested and proven. And we all KNOW you'll get slaughtered if you take that road.
Even though you are commenting on something that wasn't directed to you, I have realized that arguing with you is utterly pointless for your mind set is not open minded and if you aren't open minded than anything can be presented to you with you refusing it.
 

OGKnickfan

Enlightened
Droppin' bombs on you mombs

I'll briefly answer Paul and lyfe's comments.

Paul, because you're afraid, full of images of demons and end of days scenarios, you follow. Because you're afraid, by something you feel is true, you do as the bible says to, humbly and without question.

And, Lyfe, the point is not whether there is death, eternal life or eternal punishment. The point is that you're offered one of two things that I've learned, as an instructor, negative reinforcement and/or positive reinforcement. 'If you do this, you go to heaven.' 'If you don't, you go to hell.' The strategy used to ensnare the weak minded is not very elaborate: the carrot and the stick.

And, again, truth does not belong to anyone or anything. When I stated that Muslims, as well as others, can see truth, I don't mean that they can see their own invisible people. Instead, I'm speaking of their ability to interact with their own environment, to love and hate, etc., etc. Understanding those things, beyond repeating church doctrine, like lyfe does, for example, by copying and pasting from the watchtower, is true spirituality. Sitting down and thinking about compassion, whether you've truly felt it, what it really is, how you can tell, all that is spirituality, along with practice.

Again, your organizations do not have a monopoly on truth, just like the Jews, when they made this up in the desert, did not. This is the "God" of the Jews, created by them and only offered to the rest of the world in the new testament. Realz comments have poked more holes in that whole process than I can ever think of.

As I've said before, your religion has failed to do anything good for the world. Your religion has burned people on stakes, tortured others, invaded the "holy land," and you want to talk about Jesus to me? Like Realz said, we've evolved to a point where real spirituality has to replace invisible men in the sky. The bible, and this is a fact, was written by one group, for that one group, in the tradition of the afroasian people of that area: Egyptians, Moabites, Canaanites, and others. In fact, that's why I keep calling him the God of Israel, and the bible calls him that: because the Jews are suspected to have been henotheists, worshiping one God but believing that many others existed.
 
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OGKnickfan

Enlightened
HERE'S AN ARTICLE THAT DISCUSSES HENOTHEISM AND ISRAEL. AS A GRAD. STUDENT, I STUDIED THE AFROASIAN TRIBES AND THEIR RELIGION AND CULTURE. THIS ARTICLE DESCRIBES, VERY ACCURATELY, THE RELIGIOUS GEOGRAPHY AND HISTORY OF THESE PEOPLE. THE ARTICLE, IN ITS COMPLETE FORM, CAN BE FOUND, BY CLICKING ON THIS LINK:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism



Israelite beliefs and Judaism

It is generally uncontroversial that many of the Iron Age religions found in the land of Israel were henotheistic in practice. For example, the Moabites worshipped the god Chemosh, the Edomites, Qaus, both of whom were part of the greater Canaanite pantheon, headed by the chief god, El. The Canaanite pantheon consisted of El and Asherat as the chief deities, with 70 sons who were said to rule over each of the nations of the earth. These sons were each worshiped within a specific region. K. L. Noll states that "the Bible preserves a tradition that Yahweh used to 'live' in the south, in the land of Edom" and that the original god of Israel was El Shaddai.[6]
Several Biblical stories allude to the belief that the Canaanite gods all existed and possessed the most power in the lands that worshiped them or in their sacred objects; their power was real and could be invoked by the people who patronised them. There are numerous accounts of surrounding nations of Israel showing fear or reverence for the Israelite God despite their continued polytheistic practices.[7] For instance, in 1 Samuel 4, the Philistines fret before the second battle of Aphek when they learn that the Israelites are bearing the Ark of the Covenant, and therefore Yahweh, into battle. In 2 Kings 5, the Aramean general Naaman insists on transporting Israelite soil back with him to Syria in the belief that only then will Yahweh have the power to heal him. The Israelites were forbidden to worship other deities, but according to some interpretations of the Bible, they were not fully monotheistic before the Babylonian Captivity. Mark S. Smith refers to this stage as a form of monolatry.[8] Smith argues that Yahweh underwent a process of merging with El and that acceptance of cults of Asherah was common in the period of the Judges.[8] 2 Kings 3:27 has been interpreted as describing a human sacrifice in Moab that led the invading Israelite army to fear the power of Chemosh.[9]
According to the Five Books of Moses, Abraham is revered as the one who overcame the idol worship of his family and surrounding people by recognizing the Hebrew God and establishing a covenant with him and creating the foundation of what has been called by scholars "Ethical Monotheism". The first of the Ten Commandments can be interpreted to forbid the Children of Israel from worshiping any other god but the one true God who had revealed himself at Mount Sinai and given them the Torah, however it can also be read as henotheistic, since it states that they should have "no other gods before me." The commandment itself does not affirm or deny the existence of other deities per se. Nevertheless, as recorded in the Tanakh ("Old Testament" Bible), in defiance of the Torah's teachings, the patron god YHWH was frequently worshipped in conjunction with other gods such as Baal, Asherah, and El. Over time, this tribal god may have assumed all the appellations of the other gods in the eyes of the people. The destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and the exile to Babylon was considered a divine reprimand and punishment for the mistaken worship of other deities. By the end of the Babylonian captivity of Judah in the Tanakh, Judaism is strictly monotheistic. There are nonetheless seeming elements of "polytheism" in certain biblical books, such as God's reference to himself as "us" in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22, in Daniel's frequent use of the honorific "God of gods" and especially in the Psalms. Jewish scholars were aware of this, and expressed the opinion that although the verse can be understood wrongly, God was not afraid to write it in the Torah. However, the word God in Hebrew (Elohim) is also a plural, meaning "powerful ones" or "rulers". This is true in Hebrew as well as other related Canaanite languages. So "Elohim" could refer to any number of "rulers", such as angels, false gods (as defined by Torah), or even human holders of power including rulers or judges within Israel, as described in Exodus 21:6; 22:8-8, without violating the parameters of monotheism. Some scholars believe that Exodus 3:13-15 describes the moment when YHWH first tells Moses that he is the same god as El, the supreme being. This could be the recounting, in mythical form, of Israel's conversion to monotheism.
 

TunerAddict

Starter
Even though you are commenting on something that wasn't directed to you, I have realized that arguing with you is utterly pointless for your mind set is not open minded and if you aren't open minded than anything can be presented to you with you refusing it.

I LOLed at this. And kettle is calling us black...
 
And, Lyfe, the point is not whether there is death, eternal life or eternal punishment. The point is that you're offered one of two things that I've learned, as an instructor, negative reinforcement and/or positive reinforcement. 'If you do this, you go to heaven.' 'If you don't, you go to hell.' The strategy used to ensnare the weak minded is not very elaborate: the carrot and the stick.
But if we do what you do we're better off, why? Why are you better off serving yourself than I am serving the living God? Because that is what you do. You try and say you are seeking new heights and returning to some imaginary phase of humanity, when in all reality, ever since there was accurate written human documents, humans have always worshipped some higher being. Whether the true God or false. So I'm wondering what form of humanity you refer to going back to for one.

You say you seek spirituality, but spirituality has to involve a God of some sort. HAS TOO! So which God do you serve truthful, sprituality seeker?

If you think I'm weak minded because I serve the God of the bible, when no other book in history holds these truths that have effected our very society, so be it. None of you can truly hang your hat on disproving prophecy, but are quick to say the book is a fallacy. Either ignore it, or say it was written after. That seems to be the common theme for prophecy disprovers. Funny thing though is, only the bible has Prophecy that has actually come true. No other book in history is like it. Ever. Too many things have come TRUE in the book for it to not be from a higher source. If you want to ignore them, it's your right. But because you ignore it, does not make it any less TRUTH.


And, again, truth does not belong to anyone or anything. When I stated that Muslims, as well as others, can see truth, I don't mean that they can see their own invisible people. Instead, I'm speaking of their ability to interact with their own environment, to love and hate, etc., etc. Understanding those things, beyond repeating church doctrine, like lyfe does, for example, by copying and pasting from the watchtower, is true spirituality.
Just because a person believes they have truth, does not mean they do. Seriously, truth is absolute when it comes to God. There is not a million avenues to him. Why? Because his word says so. Not my rules, his. I'm just trying to abide.

Sitting down and thinking about compassion, whether you've truly felt it, what it really is, how you can tell, all that is spirituality, along with practice.
None of this is truly spirituality without a figure to attribute it too. You wish to have spirituality apart from God. Just like Adam and Eve did. It's about you and what you want. Selfish spirituality.



Again, your organizations do not have a monopoly on truth, just like the Jews, when they made this up in the desert, did not. This is the "God" of the Jews, created by them and only offered to the rest of the world in the new testament.
So says the human philosopher.

Realz comments have poked more holes in that whole process than I can ever think of.
Sike.



As I've said before, your religion has failed to do anything good for the world.
If everyone in the world was trying to live as Jehovah's witnesses do, you'd have one world government truly trying to benefit mankind. And secondly, about us not doing anything good for the world is crazy. You should do more research and less speaking. In times of crisis in the world, JW's are some of the first on the scene to help. Our very objective is to help people learn truth, and showing love and courtesy goes a long way to doing so. I can rest assured you are of the few, because aside from differing beliefs, people in the world generally associate JW's as upstanding citizens in their community. And if being an upstanding citizen is called by you " not doing anything good for the world " then maybe you need to re-evaluate what is doing good for the world. I guess if we were mass murderers we'd be doing good in this world.

Your religion has burned people on stakes, tortured others, invaded the "holy land," and you want to talk about Jesus to me?
When have you ever heard a JW do this "Your religion has burned people on stakes"? Are Jehovah's witnesses responsible for what goes on in Jerusalem? Or the USA? Again, Jesus said "Not everyone saying to me Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom. Here is the key though, "BUT THOSE DOING THE WILL OF MY FATHER WILL"

Doing his Fathers will is certainly not burning people on stakes, or getting ivolved with worldy wars and politics. Also, Jesus said there will be people that acknowledge him as Lord, but that won't enter into the Kingdom. That means not every self professing Christian will be acceptable to him and his Father. You have to do his Fathers will. And only one group of Christians actually live to do this. Not making this up either.




Like Realz said, we've evolved to a point where real spirituality has to replace invisible men in the sky.
Realz is your spiritual advisor now?

In fact, that's why I keep calling him the God of Israel, and the bible calls him that: because the Jews are suspected to have been henotheists, worshiping one God but believing that many others existed.

Anyone who believes Jehovah is God alone is Isreal. Spiritually speaking.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.

Paul spoke this to the roman Congregation. This was when all other nations outside of earthly Isreal could be opened up to receive the Truth of God's word. So clearly you have missed this part of the bible. God's word is for everyone, everywhere who will accept it as truly God's word.

So you making excuses for why you won't follow it, such as it's only for Jews in Isreal is to ease your mind. More power to you. But the bible clearly has a differing message than the one you portray it does. And thank Jehovah for that.

Good day.
 

abcd

KnicksonLIN.com
SMH :td: Knicks4lyfe is the biggest con artist on this website. lol

He completely manipulated that verse.

First of all, Romans 2:28-29 is a contradiction.

It says that circumcision is something outward, and it also says that circumcision is something from the heart(which is located inside the human body).

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Which one is it? Is it something outward, or is it something in the heart and in the spirit?

Secondly, Romans 2:24-29 says NOTHING about what or who a real Jew is. All it talks about is circumcision.

Look:

Romans 2:24-29

24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

What does circumcision have to do with the fact that the Bible is Israel centered and it comes from Judaism(the religion of the Jews)?

Just admit that you worship the WatchTower and don't care about the things that are really said in the Bible, Knicks4lyfe.

If you did care about what was in the Bible, you wouldn't try to coverup all of the negative things and incorrect things that are in it.

Have a good "lyfe", Knicks4lyfe.
 
SMH :td: Knicks4lyfe is the biggest con artist on this website. lol

He completely manipulated that verse.

First of all, Romans 2:28-29 is a contradiction.

It says that circumcision is something outward, and it also says that circumcision is something from the heart(which is located inside the human body).

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Which one is it? Is it something outward, or is it something in the heart and in the spirit?

Secondly, Romans 2:24-29 says NOTHING about what or who a real Jew is. All it talks about is circumcision.

Look:

Romans 2:24-29

24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

What does circumcision have to do with the fact that the Bible is Israel centered and it comes from Judaism(the religion of the Jews)?

Just admit that you worship the WatchTower and don't care about the things that are really said in the Bible, Knicks4lyfe.

If you did care about what was in the Bible, you wouldn't try to coverup all of the negative things and incorrect things that are in it.

Have a good "lyfe", Knicks4lyfe.

You ever thought that maybe you just don't get it?

Paul was stressing to circumcised Jews that they were no better off than uncircumcised Gentiles, for he who is a Jew is a circumcised in the heart spiritually toward God. The fact that he said such meant that earthly Isreal was no longer taking precendent over the Nations in worship. It was now open to everyone. Which again is why Paul and others embarked on missionary tours to other places. If it was only about Isreal itself on earth, that would not have taken place.

You every thought that maybe you just don't get it?
 

abcd

KnicksonLIN.com
Originally posted by Knicks4lyfe: "Paul was stressing to circumcised Jews that they were no better than uncircumcised gentiles."

Once again, what does circumcising have to do with the fact that the Bible is Israel centered and that Chrisitianity came from Judaism(the reiligion of the Jews)?

Also, you MISINTERPRETTED what it said. You almost successfully manipulated Romans 2:28-29, but no cigar.
Paul said that circumcision is something "of the heart, in the spirit." He also says that circumcision is "outward."
That's a contradiction that you fail to acknowledge.

More quotes:
Let's see what WatchTower quotes or manipulations Knicks4lyfe is going to use:

Exodus 3:18
"And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God."

John 4:22
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Revelation 7:4
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

Romans 1:16 is my favorite, because it specifically says that God will save the Jew first, then the non-Jew second.

You ever thought you're just a Bible corrupting con artist, Knicks4lyfe? Now have fun twisting these quotes, too. It'll further show how ignorant you are.
 
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