Christianity in 30 Seconds

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
I read a book, a while ago, by a thinker named Krishnamurti. In it, he says that belief is essential. After all, what would happen if I couldn't believe in something as basic as the sun coming up tomorrow? I'd go nuts, every night, at 8 pm, especially if I wanted to live. Not believing in a pattern that I've witnessed all my life: the sun rising and setting, would be silly.

Now, there are irrational beliefs, beliefs based on no previously studied, or documented, evidence. And no, I don't accept stories in the bible as factual evidence. Rejection of these beliefs is not outlandish and would not drive you insane. In fact, many of the craziest people I see on the trains are religious nut jobs, who tell you that Jesus is coming, etc.

Then why the **** can't they ever see a bar of soap in their future?
 
And no, I don't accept stories in the bible as factual evidence.

It is filled with prophecies reflecting detailed knowledge of the future?something impossible for humans

2 Pet. 1:20, 21: "No prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man?s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit."

▪ Prophecy: Isa. 44:24, 27, 28; 45:1-4: "Jehovah . . . the One saying to the watery deep, ?Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up?; the One saying of Cyrus, ?He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out?; even in my saying of Jerusalem, ?She will be rebuilt,? and of the temple, ?You will have your foundation laid.? This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut: ?Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out. The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down. . . . For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one, I even proceeded to call you by your name.?" (Writing by Isaiah was completed by about 732 B.C.E.)

□ Fulfillment: Cyrus had not been born when the prophecy was written. The Jews were not taken into exile to Babylon until 617-607 B.C.E., and Jerusalem and its temple were not destroyed until 607 B.C.E. In detail the prophecy was fulfilled starting in 539 B.C.E. Cyrus diverted the waters of the Euphrates River into an artificial lake, the river gates of Babylon were carelessly left open during feasting in the city, and Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. Thereafter, Cyrus liberated the Jewish exiles and sent them back to Jerusalem with instructions to rebuild Jehovah?s temple there.?The Encyclopedia Americana (1956), Vol. III, p. 9; Light From the Ancient Past (Princeton, 1959), Jack Finegan, pp. 227-229; "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" (New York, 1983), pp. 282, 284, 295.

Prophecy: Jer. 49:17, 18: "?Edom must become an object of astonishment. Everyone passing along by her will stare in astonishment and whistle on account of all her plagues. Just as in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and her neighbor towns,? Jehovah has said, ?no man will dwell there.?" (Jeremiah?s recording of prophecies was completed by 580 B.C.E.)

□ Fulfillment: "They [the Edomites] were driven from Palestine in the 2nd century B.C. by Judas Maccab?us, and in 109 B.C. John Hyrcanus, Maccab?an leader, extended the kingdom of Judah to include the w. part of Edomitic lands. In the 1st century B.C. Roman expansion swept away the last vestige of Edomitic independence . . . After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. . . . the name Idum?a [Edom] disappeared from history." (The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, 1952, Vol. 11, p. 4114) Notice that the fulfillment extends down to our day. In no way can it be argued that this prophecy was written after the events had taken place.

▪ Prophecy: Luke 19:41-44; 21:20, 21: "He [Jesus Christ] viewed the city [Jerusalem] and wept over it, saying: . . . ?The days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.?" Two days later, he counseled his disciples: "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw." (Prophecy spoken by Jesus Christ in 33 C.E.)

□ Fulfillment: Jerusalem revolted against Rome, and in 66 C.E. the Roman army under Cestius Gallus attacked the city. But, as Jewish historian Josephus reports, the Roman commander "suddenly called off his men, abandoned hope though he had suffered no reverse, and flying in the face of all reason retired from the City." (Josephus, the Jewish War, Penguin Classics, 1969, p. 167) This provided opportunity for Christians to flee from the city, which they did, moving to Pella, beyond the Jordan, according to Eusebius Pamphilus in his Ecclesiastical History. (Translated by C. F. Crus?, London, 1894, p. 75) Then around Passover time of the year 70 C.E. General Titus besieged the city, an encircling fence 4.5 miles (7.2 km) long was erected in just three days, and after five months Jerusalem fell. "Jerusalem itself was systematically destroyed and the Temple left in ruins. Archaeological work shows us today just how effective was the destruction of Jewish buildings all over the land."?The Bible and Archaeology (Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1962), J. A. Thompson, p. 299.

ALL OF THESE THINGS ACTUALLY HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN REAL LIFE. NONE OF THIS IS A FABLE. SO YOU CALLING THEM STORIES IS TO BASICALLY DENY ACTUAL RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY.

More power to you though. Good day!
 

OGKnickfan

Enlightened
Thank you for your kind wishes. As for your information about this being history, nobody knows when, or where, or by who, most of these scrolls were written. Even carbon dating them would only provide us with approximate dates. Also, these prophesies, as I've said, are specific only to the Hebrews and their semitic relatives, like the Babylonians, which is a limitation that excludes most of mankind. Also, they lack detail.

If I said something like, "the Middle East will be devastated by war, once again," I'd probably be right, based on conflict that is still brewing over there. If the bible said something like: "a man named Edison will become a great inventor," I'd be convinced. This is not evidence, it's a common sense prediction, if any of what's in it even happened.

Want some history? The Babylonians wrote the Code of Hammurabi, which among other things, says that an eye should be taken for an eye. The tablets with the code of Hammurabi on them predate any of the Torahs that exist. The Epic of Gilgamesh, written by the Babylonians, also tells the story of the world being flooded and also predates any bible evidence.

The vague predictions in the bible do not give sufficient details to prove them true. If they contained the name of Jesus, for example, coupled with other evidence, you might say that the old testament predicted Jesus' birth. But, the most convincing evidence that the new testament offers is simply a fulfillment of old prophecy in the present. That's like when the JWs say the world is going to end, after it's already been predicted.

I'm sorry that I can't believe in the God of the Hebrews, the Babylonians, and the other semitic tribes, from the Middle East. I'm sorry I can't believe in a religion that sanctions slavery, repressive, mindless rules, murder of innocent people, and war. I'm sorry I can't follow a religion that was forced on my ancestors and yours. You should really give it up and commit yourself to becoming involved, if you can, in what you know is real.

Even if the Hebrew God exists, I'm sure he would want you to actually live right now, in this world and with these problems. Otherwise, he'd be right here, giving you something to do. Instead, the world has given you something to do.

FREEDOM, TRUTH, REALITY AND SENSITIVITY are incompatible with your book and its history.
 
Thank you for your kind wishes. As for your information about this being history, nobody knows when, or where, or by who, most of these scrolls were written. Even carbon dating them would only provide us with approximate dates. Also, these prophesies, as I've said, are specific only to the Hebrews and their semitic relatives, like the Babylonians, which is a limitation that excludes most of mankind. Also, they lack detail.

If I said something like, "the Middle East will be devastated by war, once again," I'd probably be right, based on conflict that is still brewing over there. If the bible said something like: "a man named Edison will become a great inventor," I'd be convinced. This is not evidence, it's a common sense prediction, if any of what's in it even happened.

Want some history? The Babylonians wrote the Code of Hammurabi, which among other things, says that an eye should be taken for an eye. The tablets with the code of Hammurabi on them predate any of the Torahs that exist. The Epic of Gilgamesh, written by the Babylonians, also tells the story of the world being flooded and also predates any bible evidence.

The vague predictions in the bible do not give sufficient details to prove them true. If they contained the name of Jesus, for example, coupled with other evidence, you might say that the old testament predicted Jesus' birth. But, the most convincing evidence that the new testament offers is simply a fulfillment of old prophecy in the present. That's like when the JWs say the world is going to end, after it's already been predicted.

I'm sorry that I can't believe in the God of the Hebrews, the Babylonians, and the other semitic tribes, from the Middle East. I'm sorry I can't believe in a religion that sanctions slavery, repressive, mindless rules, murder of innocent people, and war. I'm sorry I can't follow a religion that was forced on my ancestors and yours. You should really give it up and commit yourself to becoming involved, if you can, in what you know is real.

Even if the Hebrew God exists, I'm sure he would want you to actually live right now, in this world and with these problems. Otherwise, he'd be right here, giving you something to do. Instead, the world has given you something to do.

FREEDOM, TRUTH, REALITY AND SENSITIVITY are incompatible with your book and its history.

But what you are failing to factor in is the intricate detail of bible prophecy. Most people who do not believe in the bible fail to do the exact same thing. Quite a few of the prophecies span from ancient times down to our day.

For instance, Babylon was once a world power the same way the USA and Great Britain is now. And the Babylonian city was as sprawling a city as say NYC is now. The bible said the Babylon would become a desolate place.
If someone said that NYC will one day become a desolate place, and no one will inhabit it, what would you think the likely hood of that happening would be? Probably very slim.

Regarding Babylon, it was foretold: "She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let their flocks lie down there." (Isaiah 13:20) This prophecy did more than predict a city?s fall. It showed that Babylon would be desolated permanently. You can see evidence of the fulfillment of these words. The uninhabited site of ancient Babylon?about 50 miles [80 km] south of Baghdad, Iraq?is proof that what Jehovah spoke through Isaiah has been fulfilled: "I will sweep her with the broom of annihilation."?Isaiah 14:22, 23.

This annihilation started with the Persian invasion of Babylon, and way down to our day. The desolation of Babylon took a long time for it to pass. Many regimes tried to ressurect the city, even Great leaders like Alexander the great. It never happend. And now, just like the bible says, it is a desolate desert land. All that remains in anceint ruins of Babylon. No inhabitants. So this prophecy is not just related to the Hebrews, everyone can see it came true. So you may need to rethink your stance a little bit if you are the type of person who truly seeks truth, and does not remain ignorant when fact is presented to them.

Here is another prophecy that extends down to our day below.

?TYRE WILL BECOME A DRYING YARD FOR DRAGNETS?


An example of the astonishing accuracy of Bible prophecy concerns the ancient Phoenician seaport city of Tyre. This city grew to be very great at the expense of other people. She was a manufacturer of metal objects, glassware and purple dyes, a trading center for overland caravans, a great import-export depot. Her merchants and tradesmen boasted of being princely and honorable. (Isa. 23:8) At one time friendly relations existed between Tyre and Israel. But this did not continue, for Tyre eventually allied herself with Israel?s enemies. Because of Tyre?s treachery toward Israel, God inspired his prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others to predict that calamity would come upon this Phoenician seaport. We read, for example:
"This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ?Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea. . . . Here I am bringing against Tyre Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon from the north, a king of kings, with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. And I will make you a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what you will become. Never will you be rebuilt; for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."?Ezek. 26:3-5, 7, 14.
Secular history reports that Nebuchadnezzar began a siege of Tyre sometime after destroying Jerusalem and the temple of Jehovah?s worship in 607 B.C.E. The Jewish historian Josephus, drawing upon Phoenician annals and other previously written history, states that Nebuchadnezzar?s siege against Tyre lasted thirteen years. The Bible indicates that Nebuchadnezzar?s forces inflicted considerable damage upon Tyre.?Ezek. 26:8-11.

Tyre recovered from this blow struck by Babylon. However, centuries later, Grecian forces under Alexander the Great moved against Tyre, which at that time was located on an island about half a mile (0.8 kilometer) from the mainland. When the inhabitants refused to capitulate to Alexander, he became enraged and had his men scrape up the ruins of the mainland city and throw them into the sea, thus building a causeway out to the island city. Then a sea battle took place in which Alexander?s forces prevailed. After a siege of seven months, Alexander?s men took the island city. When its inhabitants put up desperate resistance, the city was set on fire. It proved to be as another prophet, Zechariah, had foretold: "In the fire she herself will be devoured."?Zech. 9:4.

Though Tyre kept trying to make a comeback through the centuries, the city repeatedly fell before hostile forces, just as God?s prophet had foretold. (Ezek. 26:3) What is the present condition of Tyre, which was one of the great sea powers of the ancient world? Ruins and a small seaport, called Sour (Sur), mark the site. Nina Jidejian, in her book Tyre Through the Ages (1969), declares: "The port has become a haven today for fishing boats and a place for spreading nets," exactly as prophesied through Ezekiel.?Ezek. 26:5, 14.

And there are more prophecies that began in ancient times, and extended until more recent times.


Does Babylonian, egyptian, Hindu, Buddist, or any other ancient books of a people have such prophetic word in it? Does the Koran? Does any of these books have prophetic word that extends from their time, til ours like the bible?

NO!


So this leads a man like myself searching for truth to believe that God indeed is behind the bible. Since no other source on earth could predict such things, what else could it be?​
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
The Finality of GODs Word

Let's try an example...using the following quote from the Bible.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Now the literal and CORRECT interpretation of this is very simple...you sleep with a man as you would a woman or vice versa...and you as the BELIEVER..GOD'S follower...you must act to put these people to death. PERIOD.

There is nothing in this verse that can be re-interpreted to mean anything other than what it is expressly commanding for the follower to do in this situation. It's GOD's command for you to kill a homosexual. PERIOD.

Now if this verse bothers you MORALLY, first off it means your morals on this matter of homosexuality has clearly surpassed GOD's. The second point is, there is no way to re-interpret this verse as to being an allegory or metaphor because to do so..would negate this being GOD's perfect word. Perfection cannot withstand correction, it's already supposed to be perfect and not in need of correction in the first place.

The only way this verse can be re-interpreted is to completely ignore it all together. At which case the believer is then taking a different moral stance on this issue GOD has clearly stated his thoughts on.

Now to your other point..."inspiration". This is even more problematic that what you realize. If this is the inspired word from GOD, written by mortal human men...then how come GOD has allowed this to stand for so long? Just didn't seem to go into the ear of the very writer and wrote this and say "if you don't correct it I'm smiting your ass".

And it also removes GOD, completely from the text as well. If all of it was simply just "inspired" as to how people viewed GOD...which quite frankly is an asshole..especially in the OLD Testament...then it's humans who are against homosexuality not GOD. Then there is no moral basis from the divine aka "GOD" for homophobia..and rather GOD is then used as a smoke screen for one's own homophobic thinking.

Perfection the word itself maybe subjective, but the concept is not. Perfect is as it sounds. Nothing to be added, or taken away. Complete, flawless, no mistakes.

Perfect.

Either something is perfect, or it is not. Perfect is always 100%..always flawless..all the time. Anything less...is not perfect..but GOOD.

Like I said if you believe that slavery IS wrong, that your wife IS NOT your property, that having a concubine IS wrong, that killing a non-believer is NOT morally justified, that kids should NOT BE stoned for killing their parents, that forcing a victim to be married to her rapist IS wrong....if you feel these things are in error. Then you morally disagree with what the bible is preaching...and which like I said places you above GOD's very morality...if this is in fact his own words...or "inspired" to him.

In which case makes the bible not only outdated, but useless as a reference book for contemporary (current) moral values. Which then leave the only reason..for glorifying the Bible is traditionalism. Just like no one is calling for slavery to make a comeback...somethings should be better left in the past..simply because we have evolved beyond them.

Even the Bible states there is a time to put away childish things..and clinging to a book..which has never, nor can fully grow up with you..because there is only one way to interpret it...quite simply is of no practical use in the modern world today.
 
Let's try an example...using the following quote from the Bible.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Now the literal and CORRECT interpretation of this is very simple...you sleep with a man as you would a woman or vice versa...and you as the BELIEVER..GOD'S follower...you must act to put these people to death. PERIOD.

There is nothing in this verse that can be re-interpreted to mean anything other than what it is expressly commanding for the follower to do in this situation. It's GOD's command for you to kill a homosexual. PERIOD.

Now if this verse bothers you MORALLY, first off it means your morals on this matter of homosexuality has clearly surpassed GOD's. The second point is, there is no way to re-interpret this verse as to being an allegory or metaphor because to do so..would negate this being GOD's perfect word. Perfection cannot withstand correction, it's already supposed to be perfect and not in need of correction in the first place.

The only way this verse can be re-interpreted is to completely ignore it all together. At which case the believer is then taking a different moral stance on this issue GOD has clearly stated his thoughts on.

Now to your other point..."inspiration". This is even more problematic that what you realize. If this is the inspired word from GOD, written by mortal human men...then how come GOD has allowed this to stand for so long? Just didn't seem to go into the ear of the very writer and wrote this and say "if you don't correct it I'm smiting your ass".

And it also removes GOD, completely from the text as well. If all of it was simply just "inspired" as to how people viewed GOD...which quite frankly is an asshole..especially in the OLD Testament...then it's humans who are against homosexuality not GOD. Then there is no moral basis from the divine aka "GOD" for homophobia..and rather GOD is then used as a smoke screen for one's own homophobic thinking.

Perfection the word itself maybe subjective, but the concept is not. Perfect is as it sounds. Nothing to be added, or taken away. Complete, flawless, no mistakes.

Perfect.

Either something is perfect, or it is not. Perfect is always 100%..always flawless..all the time. Anything less...is not perfect..but GOOD.

Like I said if you believe that slavery IS wrong, that your wife IS NOT your property, that having a concubine IS wrong, that killing a non-believer is NOT morally justified, that kids should NOT BE stoned for killing their parents, that forcing a victim to be married to her rapist IS wrong....if you feel these things are in error. Then you morally disagree with what the bible is preaching...and which like I said places you above GOD's very morality...if this is in fact his own words...or "inspired" to him.

In which case makes the bible not only outdated, but useless as a reference book for contemporary (current) moral values. Which then leave the only reason..for glorifying the Bible is traditionalism. Just like no one is calling for slavery to make a comeback...somethings should be better left in the past..simply because we have evolved beyond them.

Even the Bible states there is a time to put away childish things..and clinging to a book..which has never, nor can fully grow up with you..because there is only one way to interpret it...quite simply is of no practical use in the modern world today.

I'll quickly refer you to a previous thread concerning the Law of Moses that you constantly try and use to demean the bible without proper understanding.

The Mosaic Law was perfect law. It was put into place just to show mankind we need to accept Christ for forgiveness of sins due to the fact we're im perfect and cannot possibly keep a perfect law. That is why we are no longer under the covenant of that perfect law, because we cannot possibly follow it.

Here is the link to the page where I referenced the Law for LJ4ptplay.

http://www.knicksonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5055&page=18

Homosexuality is a choice one makes throughout their life, the same way one chooses to live a life of fornication, or stealing, or lying, or murdering, etc. These were all forbidden in the law, and if the law could have been kept, it would have meant perfect people would be living to keep it (Like Jesus did, because he was perfect)

Everyone else fell short of the law, which is why no one else is called the ransom sacrifice like Christ is. Christ is the ransom for forgiveness of sins based on the fact he lived the law perfectly, and was unjustly murdered. But God could now use his life on earth as a sacrifice for all who believe he indeed is the Christ.

And to say we can't grow up with, or basically say the bible can't be used for Guidance because it can only be viewed one way, hence making it invalid and outdated is silly. Because if everyone tried their darndest to do what God's word the bible says only benefits us, the world would be in much, much, much better shape.

And not only for right now, but for as long as mankind followed what is in the bible, it would remain that way. So if mankind could live forever, and they applied the principles of the bible forever, the world would never be in tatters like it is now. And It does not take a rocket scientists to understand that simple logic.

So all you are trying to use is your human philosophy vs God's, and you can never win that battle. http://www.knicksonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5184&page=3 < Human Philosophy never equals God's knowledge.
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
I'll quickly refer you to a previous thread concerning the Law of Moses that you constantly try and use to demean the bible without proper understanding.

The Mosaic Law was perfect law. It was put into place just to show mankind we need to accept Christ for forgiveness of sins due to the fact we're im perfect and cannot possibly keep a perfect law. That is why we are no longer under the covenant of that perfect law, because we cannot possibly follow it.

Here is the link to the page where I referenced the Law for LJ4ptplay.

http://www.knicksonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5055&page=18

Homosexuality is a choice one makes throughout their life, the same way one chooses to live a life of fornication, or stealing, or lying, or murdering, etc. These were all forbidden in the law, and if the law could have been kept, it would have meant perfect people would be living to keep it (Like Jesus did, because he was perfect)

Everyone else fell short of the law, which is why no one else is called the ransom sacrifice like Christ is. Christ is the ransom for forgiveness of sins based on the fact he lived the law perfectly, and was unjustly murdered. But God could now use his life on earth as a sacrifice for all who believe he indeed is the Christ.

And to say we can't grow up with, or basically say the bible can't be used for Guidance because it can only be viewed one way, hence making it invalid and outdated is silly. Because if everyone tried their darndest to do what God's word the bible says only benefits us, the world would be in much, much, much better shape.

And not only for right now, but for as long as mankind followed what is in the bible, it would remain that way. So if mankind could live forever, and they applied the principles of the bible forever, the world would never be in tatters like it is now. And It does not take a rocket scientists to understand that simple logic.

So all you are trying to use is your human philosophy vs God's, and you can never win that battle. http://www.knicksonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5184&page=3 < Human Philosophy never equals God's knowledge.

Mosaic Law...PERFECT??

So like I said you and your sick ****ing GOD...agree that it's fine...to beat women...take slaves...have a rapist marry it's victim....and kill non-believers....

And how are you people not completely ****ing insane once again??

Excuse me the clinical term for you folks would be...

Paranoid Schizophrenia.

The key feature of this subtype of schizophrenia is the combination of false beliefs (delusions) and hearing voices (auditory hallucinations), with more nearly normal emotions and cognitive functioning (cognitive functions include reasoning, judgment, and memory). The delusions of paranoid schizophrenics usually involve thoughts of being persecuted or harmed by others or exaggerated opinions of their own importance, but may also reflect feelings of jealousy or excessive religiosity. The delusions are typically organized into a coherent framework. Paranoid schizophrenics function at a higher level than other subtypes, but are at risk for suicidal or violent behavior under the influence of their delusions.
 

OGKnickfan

Enlightened
Yo, I don't want to knock you for being spiritual. I'm spiritual and look to the bible, as well as other books, for spiritual growth and encouragement. I just want you, and others like you, to be free, while you want me, and others, to be imprisoned.

I want you to live now, and you want me to live in the past. I want you to live, and experience, compassion, love, discipline, sacrifice, and you want me to read, and believe, what others have spoken of these. I want this for me, as much as I want it for you. And I know that's a bit selfish, but I'm tired of what I see. And I see the so-called spiritual folk as a major cause of what I see.

Take your humanity back, take back that ancient freedom, that ancient feeling of uncertainty and humility. Stop being so confident that you cannot challenge a thing that you read in some book that was written for, and by, people that have nothing to do with your ancestors, with life today.

You must ask yourself why all of the major religions have failed, each one as much as every other. None of them have brought us real enlightenment, real understanding. This is because true spirituality is in it of itself the solution, and true spirituality requires, and urges us, to be free and aware, it does not care about your book, and it never will. You must care about it.

I'll leave you with that, and leave things as they are. God bless.
 
Mosaic Law...PERFECT??

So like I said you and your sick ****ing GOD...agree that it's fine...to beat women...take slaves...have a rapist marry it's victim....and kill non-believers....

And how are you people not completely ****ing insane once again??

Excuse me the clinical term for you folks would be...

Paranoid Schizophrenia.

The key feature of this subtype of schizophrenia is the combination of false beliefs (delusions) and hearing voices (auditory hallucinations), with more nearly normal emotions and cognitive functioning (cognitive functions include reasoning, judgment, and memory). The delusions of paranoid schizophrenics usually involve thoughts of being persecuted or harmed by others or exaggerated opinions of their own importance, but may also reflect feelings of jealousy or excessive religiosity. The delusions are typically organized into a coherent framework. Paranoid schizophrenics function at a higher level than other subtypes, but are at risk for suicidal or violent behavior under the influence of their delusions.


Did you read the part about it being for the purpose of exposing transgression before you even went off on a tangent? Probably not. Read it before you respond.
 
Yo, I don't want to knock you for being spiritual. I'm spiritual and look to the bible, as well as other books, for spiritual growth and encouragement. I just want you, and others like you, to be free, while you want me, and others, to be imprisoned.

I want you to live now, and you want me to live in the past. I want you to live, and experience, compassion, love, discipline, sacrifice, and you want me to read, and believe, what others have spoken of these. I want this for me, as much as I want it for you. And I know that's a bit selfish, but I'm tired of what I see. And I see the so-called spiritual folk as a major cause of what I see.

Take your humanity back, take back that ancient freedom, that ancient feeling of uncertainty and humility. Stop being so confident that you cannot challenge a thing that you read in some book that was written for, and by, people that have nothing to do with your ancestors, with life today.

You must ask yourself why all of the major religions have failed, each one as much as every other. None of them have brought us real enlightenment, real understanding. This is because true spirituality is in it of itself the solution, and true spirituality requires, and urges us, to be free and aware, it does not care about your book, and it never will. You must care about it.

I'll leave you with that, and leave things as they are. God bless.


Compassion, love, discipline, sacrfice is what being a Jehovah's witness is truly about. As Christians, it is our wish to emulate our loving Leader Jesus in his ways, and he personified those qualities.

And when you say every religion has failed, and none have brought real enlightenment, real understanding, this is simply not true at all. Jehovah's witnesses have been for quite some time now enlightening people about truths of the bible, to help them sway away from philosophical views of the bible, which always fall short of the author's theme of his own book.

And if spirituality does not care about the book as you say, why would you ever at anytime refer to the book for "spiritual growth and encouragement" as you said in the first paragraph of your last response? You say God bless, yet you don't believe in God's book? How can you truly be spiritual, if you deny the one who provides spirit for you to abide in?
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
Did you read the part about it being for the purpose of exposing transgression before you even went off on a tangent? Probably not. Read it before you respond.

What tangent it's the truth? Most people who follow religion do suffer from a slight form of paranoid schizophrenia. I know this by looking at some of my patients. All the one's that either have been diagnosed over 90% admitted to having some sort of religion in their lives. Extremely, rare is the person who has this disorder of the mind and no effect of religion from their lives whatsoever.
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
If spirituality requires one to submit to obedience, and stupidity....and in the off chance about .0000999% there is a GOD...then I'd rather burn in hell that to live my life as an observant fool to a vindictive GOD who gives no aid even to his most devout, folks whom even feel God is good whence he's failed and let them down, and a GOD who people ever make take responsibility for the crafts he's created.

PERIOD.

You want enlightenment seek knowledge, you want obedience seek religion. And yes, religion does not inspire knowledge if it did..it would abandon it's backwards ass moral tales..and conform to secular humanism.
 

OGKnickfan

Enlightened
Well, you can't emulate something that requires freedom. Compassion requires an understanding, as well as freedom to act. As is the case with many other denominations of Christianity, as well as other religions, compassion is not clearly defined in the bible. Its meaning isn't defined, which is why many Christians lack the ability to put what they speak of into practice.

I do believe in God, but not in the way you do: as a man or being. I believe in the bible's value, as a source for spiritual enrichment, for being able to look at the ancient wisdom of one set of humankind's ancestors. Some of the bible, I find useless. Other parts, I find to give examples of sacrifice and grace that people just don't understand, and it's sad.

Everything is, "you see how Job did this or that and was rewarded for his faith," "Jesus died for your sins." But, where is the understanding? For example, Lyfe, think about the story of Jesus, which, in my study I've found to be a beautiful example of spiritual grace. Most people just say that he died for one's sins, he paid a ransom. The story really is spiritual grace, someone saving you at that last moment, when you've fallen, when you've been hurt, violated, whatever, yet it becomes a story about owing Jesus for saving you, owing him loyalty and worship.

This is just one example. There are many, and I know, from going to JW meetings, bible studies, etc., that they're not spoken of as they should be, by your church. I know from attending Buddhist, Hindu, and other meetings, that they also tend to fall short.

I say that the bible simply does not have a monopoly on truth, it cannot control truth or spirituality. Spirituality is in learning, in saving a life, in almost everything beautiful. It takes commitment to become very spiritual, and I commend yours, I just believe you need to free that commitment up.

Take Care-
 
If spirituality requires one to submit to obedience, and stupidity....and in the off chance about .0000999% there is a GOD...then I'd rather burn in hell that to live my life as an observant fool to a vindictive GOD who gives no aid even to his most devout, folks whom even feel God is good whence he's failed and let them down, and a GOD who people ever make take responsibility for the crafts he's created.

PERIOD.

You want enlightenment seek knowledge, you want obedience seek religion. And yes, religion does not inspire knowledge if it did..it would abandon it's backwards ass moral tales..and conform to secular humanism.


What's stupid about not murdering? Not fornicating? Not becoming an adulterer? Lying, stealing, coveting? Answer this, would the world not be a better place if human being obeyed to NOT doing these things? None of you bible bashers have answered this question yet!!!

And again, you have not been paying attention to the bible any. If you truly understood the issue of soveriegnty, you would understand why the most devout would have to suffer some sort if they will support God's side of the issue. Why? Because the enemy will see they do because he knows they have the truth. People oblivious to the truth, philosophers, so called spritually free and social thinkers, are in the enemies hip pocket.

Secondly, there is only one way to be a devout believer in Jehovah. Not 5, not 10, not 15, ONE. So even aperson who considers themself devout, may indeed not be such.

Seeking Jehovah is the begining of Knowledge. Who else can you learn more from than the being who imparts wisdom to all?
 

OGKnickfan

Enlightened
What's bad about it, is that it's a rule not to kill, instead of telling you why it's evil, why it's selfish, heartless. This lack of understanding is why the world is still, and will forever be screwed up. You can tell people to do things that are good, but they're not really virtuous for following those things, without a good understanding of what those things mean, not even why you should follow them: that's just a value (this is better than that) judgment. I'm talking about seeing how beautiful and life-saving something like compassion is.

The religion you follow, and all others, have failed. If they hadn't failed, you would know what I just said, everyone would. And, since I don't know half of what I'm talking about, you'd be telling me something extraordinary, instead of ordinary and typical. I mean that without any disrespect or cynicism. I know you believe, but I can't understand why.
 

OGKnickfan

Enlightened
I gotta agree with realz, I can't obey blindly or even knowingly. I can be good and compassionate, if I'm allowed to do it in freedom, not as a slave.
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
What's stupid about not murdering? Not fornicating? Not becoming an adulterer? Lying, stealing, coveting? Answer this, would the world not be a better place if human being obeyed to NOT doing these things? None of you bible bashers have answered this question yet!!!

And again, you have not been paying attention to the bible any. If you truly understood the issue of soveriegnty, you would understand why the most devout would have to suffer some sort if they will support God's side of the issue. Why? Because the enemy will see they do because he knows they have the truth. People oblivious to the truth, philosophers, so called spritually free and social thinkers, are in the enemies hip pocket.

Secondly, there is only one way to be a devout believer in Jehovah. Not 5, not 10, not 15, ONE. So even aperson who considers themself devout, may indeed not be such.

Seeking Jehovah is the begining of Knowledge. Who else can you learn more from than the being who imparts wisdom to all?


Because not murdering is illogical. You eliminate threats, you do not keep them around. The Christian concept of turn the other cheek, is not only inhuman. But morally fragmented. Hitler for example is not exactly the kind of person one would wish to keep around, simply because you deem all human life to be of value. Simply, anyone whom would murder without and reasonable just causation needs to be put down immediately. The murder sitting on death row right now, or the rapist doesn't NOT need to be killed because it's a sin...they need to be killed because they have already proven they are a threat to society and to others. It would be one thing if these folks did something that only harmed themselves...but they did not. Threats are very simple...if it's trying to kill you it's a threat. End of story.

And then let's get into the subject of killing itself. Doing so for a GOD is not proper justification. Gods and all other diety's tend to be quiet mum in today's world on it..and what all of them have said previously is that it is in fact not only just, but as well morally acceptable to kill in their name...which is moral cowardice if not anything else. After all the very fact that an all powerful GOD is capable of giving life, yet does not have the balls to do their own killing and has to ask mortals to do their own is essentially a cosmic failure.

Fornication. Not having sex before marriage is just as well stupid for logical reasons of the marriage itself. If you are a person with a high sex drive, naturally. You just constantly think of sex, and feel that it is something that should be done with high frequency..and your mate is not...then why get married? You two are not compatiable. When you look at the TOP 5 reasons for divorce pull any survey...sex and infidelity are in there. Why? Simply...you cannot have a sports car for a driver content to do the speed limit. Period. If you like sex or your wife have high thresholds for such..then you marry someone with a lower. You're not going to be happy, and unhappiness translates not only into other aspects of the relationship but makes compensation that much more difficult.

Because you then start to compromise and ponder...that tis okay to not be as sexually free as you wish..but she's a good person. Arguments develop, connection is degraded. She may feel you want sexual demands too much, her too little. Then what? One must have sex before marriage in order to remain pure to self principles. Sexual desire of such for what is presumably going to be forever, this needs to be addressed well well before a serious relationship develops fully. If not, see you at divorce court. Because in the end...what you truly seek will rise to the surface.

Adultery. Just see the above. If people found their sexual equal before marriage...you wouldn't have the need for adultery nor would it happen. Basically, people who needs their brains ****ed out...getting their brains ****ed out..aren't going anywhere. After all, you don't leave paradise right??

Lying, stealing, coveting. Let's try this from the last one out. Without coveting there would be no jobs, no economy..so this is ****ing stupid. Stealing...people still because they lack resources oppurtunity..or from sheer laziness. It is easier to steal than it is to work for it, tis logical. But 99% of folks if they had the knowledge, and skill to land a much better job...would do so in a heartbeat and would not give two thoughts to stealing.

Lying...People lie for a ton of reasons. Most lies...are however from say it with me "good intentions". I can make the case right now that religion is the biggest LIAR of them all. It makes promises it can't possibly PROVE are accurate, nor any guarantees of it's success can be shown to the new customer. People also lie they feel to "protect" the one they love.

Maybe your wife's cooking sucks, maybe your son is an idiot, but you don't say these things..in order to build self esteem, confidence, and just simply pain. But doing so is doing what? "Bearing false witness as well"...so lying as well is at times a necessary thing. If you were suddenly captured by Muslim terrorists whom demanded your conversion to Islam..you wouldn't lie to get back to your family? You'd refuse??...Get killed and leave your family father and husband-less..only a fool would die for a GOD which they cannot prove..instead of for a family which has times over proven their value.

The human world would be better off if people did not still cling to childish fantasies. Period. I've already given the list of the atrocities committed in the name of religion, and you folks simply want to sweep it under the rug. It's not like these people were not as devout, or did not believe. You're embarrassed by them because they killed in the name of GOD, the same GOD whether by different name or means of faith....still the same source in which you claim is the essence of humanity and it greatly bothers you as a believer. That such people could ever render such not only to do, but to as well in accord with GOD's will...and morally justified.

The very fact the most devout suffer...is the simple point..of why faith in GOD makes you a failure. If GOD really cared about his most devout...many of them would not come from lives of complete pain and shit. What you mean to tell me GOD couldn't have both born you into a family of nice people, with a good amount of money..and still led you to him? I call bullshit. Like I said, delusion is very powerful to the mind.

If you want to discuss delusion the function of the right side of the brain..and how people who have limited function in this area..tend to feel more spiritual and one with the universe.

Killing someone because they kill others is because they are a proven viable threat. Killing someone in the name of GOD because you believe them to be infidels, or non-righteous is insanity and lunacy at the highest of levels of brain dysfunction.

Who exactly this enemy you speak of? A demon somewhere around the mantle or better yet at Earth's core...that makes people suffer...beats them..makes them work in smoldering conditions...for all eternity.

In short the GOD of all the Christian sects is sadistic and cruel...and his followers are good measure of this truth.
 
Well, you can't emulate something that requires freedom. Compassion requires an understanding, as well as freedom to act. As is the case with many other denominations of Christianity, as well as other religions, compassion is not clearly defined in the bible. Its meaning isn't defined, which is why many Christians lack the ability to put what they speak of into practice.

compassion

Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.

I've seen non religious people have this. I don't know why you seem to take Compassion to be something more than what it actually means, But a True Christian will do his best to live with Compassion. It's not as tough to do as you make it seem. Compassion is not some sort of sacred secret. You just have to want to have love enough to feel it. Many examples in the bible have lived up to the definition of Compassion. Now maybe you have a different version, but the one in the dictionary fits a lot of examples in the bible.

I do believe in God, but not in the way you do: as a man or being. I believe in the bible's value, as a source for spiritual enrichment, for being able to look at the ancient wisdom of one set of humankind's ancestors. Some of the bible, I find useless. Other parts, I find to give examples of sacrifice and grace that people just don't understand, and it's sad.
So the bible is good enough for you to give insight of one set of humankind's ancestors, who got this wisdom from Jehovah, yet you won't give Jehovah the credit for their wisdom?


Everything is, "you see how Job did this or that and was rewarded for his faith," "Jesus died for your sins." But, where is the understanding? For example, Lyfe, think about the story of Jesus, which, in my study I've found to be a beautiful example of spiritual grace. Most people just say that he died for one's sins, he paid a ransom. The story really is spiritual grace, someone saving you at that last moment, when you've fallen, when you've been hurt, violated, whatever, yet it becomes a story about owing Jesus for saving you, owing him loyalty and worship.
Loyalty, yes. Worship, no. Jesus never once said he was God, or that he should be worshipped as such.

Now why should we be loyal to him for the ransom? Easy. Without that ransom, we could never have a way out of sin and death! Both are curses from the first parents that imperfect man could never buy back, since the first parents commited sin in a perfect state. So Jesus wrongful death of his perfect life ransoms or equals Adams once perfect life. This enables humans to gain back the relationship humans had with God before sin and gain perfection in life, and death being nomore. Which was a lot better than the world is now, and that relationship with him is. Plus, Jesus is King of the government that will accomplish this. So again, why not be loyal to it?

This is just one example. There are many, and I know, from going to JW meetings, bible studies, etc., that they're not spoken of as they should be, by your church. I know from attending Buddhist, Hindu, and other meetings, that they also tend to fall short.
The Jews spoke bad of Jesus and did not think he knew what he was talking about either, and he was a Jehovah's witness himself. So I'm not surprised today when people feel the same about JW's as they did when Jesus was on earth preaching and living the same way a Christian does today.

I say that the bible simply does not have a monopoly on truth, it cannot control truth or spirituality. Spirituality is in learning, in saving a life, in almost everything beautiful. It takes commitment to become very spiritual, and I commend yours, I just believe you need to free that commitment up.

Take Care-

The bible can't make people be spiritual. It can only lead them there if they choose to follow God's truth. The bible amazingly had no scientifical inaccuracies. It's the only religious book with prophetic word, and there are a lot of religions. And it's the only book that holds a real hope for the earth and mankind and the animals existing in peace on earth forever.

No other spiritual guide book can say the same. None. So this leads me to believe the Bible is above and beyond those other sources. If there is a God, then his word would produce such things the bible has in it. I would not have to look here and there and everywhere to search for the truth. The Bible accomplishes that. Every question mankind needs to understand and live practically is answered in the book.

Is there a God?
Why are we here?
What's our purpose in life?
Why do we die?
Can we live again?
Why does God allow suffering?
When will suffering end?
Can mankind live in peace and Love?
Why is the world so bad if there is a God?

All of these are relevant questions the bible has anwers for. Along with prophetic word and other amazing things. Why would I need to go to Budda, when he can't provide this?

Why would I need to follow the Koran when it does not provide this? Hindu scribes? Why should I believe in evolution when it does not provide this?

But in the end, it's my perspective, vs yours, and niether will win in the battle of opinions.

So best of love and life to you and yours, and Im sure you will ditto for me and mine. Good talk, and good day.
 
Because not murdering is illogical. You eliminate threats, you do not keep them around. The Christian concept of turn the other cheek, is not only inhuman. But morally fragmented. Hitler for example is not exactly the kind of person one would wish to keep around, simply because you deem all human life to be of value. Simply, anyone whom would murder without and reasonable just causation needs to be put down immediately. The murder sitting on death row right now, or the rapist doesn't NOT need to be killed because it's a sin...they need to be killed because they have already proven they are a threat to society and to others. It would be one thing if these folks did something that only harmed themselves...but they did not. Threats are very simple...if it's trying to kill you it's a threat. End of story.

And then let's get into the subject of killing itself. Doing so for a GOD is not proper justification. Gods and all other diety's tend to be quiet mum in today's world on it..and what all of them have said previously is that it is in fact not only just, but as well morally acceptable to kill in their name...which is moral cowardice if not anything else. After all the very fact that an all powerful GOD is capable of giving life, yet does not have the balls to do their own killing and has to ask mortals to do their own is essentially a cosmic failure.

Fornication. Not having sex before marriage is just as well stupid for logical reasons of the marriage itself. If you are a person with a high sex drive, naturally. You just constantly think of sex, and feel that it is something that should be done with high frequency..and your mate is not...then why get married? You two are not compatiable. When you look at the TOP 5 reasons for divorce pull any survey...sex and infidelity are in there. Why? Simply...you cannot have a sports car for a driver content to do the speed limit. Period. If you like sex or your wife have high thresholds for such..then you marry someone with a lower. You're not going to be happy, and unhappiness translates not only into other aspects of the relationship but makes compensation that much more difficult.

Because you then start to compromise and ponder...that tis okay to not be as sexually free as you wish..but she's a good person. Arguments develop, connection is degraded. She may feel you want sexual demands too much, her too little. Then what? One must have sex before marriage in order to remain pure to self principles. Sexual desire of such for what is presumably going to be forever, this needs to be addressed well well before a serious relationship develops fully. If not, see you at divorce court. Because in the end...what you truly seek will rise to the surface.

Adultery. Just see the above. If people found their sexual equal before marriage...you wouldn't have the need for adultery nor would it happen. Basically, people who needs their brains ****ed out...getting their brains ****ed out..aren't going anywhere. After all, you don't leave paradise right??

Lying, stealing, coveting. Let's try this from the last one out. Without coveting there would be no jobs, no economy..so this is ****ing stupid. Stealing...people still because they lack resources oppurtunity..or from sheer laziness. It is easier to steal than it is to work for it, tis logical. But 99% of folks if they had the knowledge, and skill to land a much better job...would do so in a heartbeat and would not give two thoughts to stealing.

Lying...People lie for a ton of reasons. Most lies...are however from say it with me "good intentions". I can make the case right now that religion is the biggest LIAR of them all. It makes promises it can't possibly PROVE are accurate, nor any guarantees of it's success can be shown to the new customer. People also lie they feel to "protect" the one they love.

Maybe your wife's cooking sucks, maybe your son is an idiot, but you don't say these things..in order to build self esteem, confidence, and just simply pain. But doing so is doing what? "Bearing false witness as well"...so lying as well is at times a necessary thing. If you were suddenly captured by Muslim terrorists whom demanded your conversion to Islam..you wouldn't lie to get back to your family? You'd refuse??...Get killed and leave your family father and husband-less..only a fool would die for a GOD which they cannot prove..instead of for a family which has times over proven their value.

The human world would be better off if people did not still cling to childish fantasies. Period. I've already given the list of the atrocities committed in the name of religion, and you folks simply want to sweep it under the rug. It's not like these people were not as devout, or did not believe. You're embarrassed by them because they killed in the name of GOD, the same GOD whether by different name or means of faith....still the same source in which you claim is the essence of humanity and it greatly bothers you as a believer. That such people could ever render such not only to do, but to as well in accord with GOD's will...and morally justified.

The very fact the most devout suffer...is the simple point..of why faith in GOD makes you a failure. If GOD really cared about his most devout...many of them would not come from lives of complete pain and shit. What you mean to tell me GOD couldn't have both born you into a family of nice people, with a good amount of money..and still led you to him? I call bullshit. Like I said, delusion is very powerful to the mind.

If you want to discuss delusion the function of the right side of the brain..and how people who have limited function in this area..tend to feel more spiritual and one with the universe.

Killing someone because they kill others is because they are a proven viable threat. Killing someone in the name of GOD because you believe them to be infidels, or non-righteous is insanity and lunacy at the highest of levels of brain dysfunction.

Who exactly this enemy you speak of? A demon somewhere around the mantle or better yet at Earth's core...that makes people suffer...beats them..makes them work in smoldering conditions...for all eternity.

In short the GOD of all the Christian sects is sadistic and cruel...and his followers are good measure of this truth.


News flash to the most brilliant mind on earth, people are without religion more and more each generation now. This is why fornication is so ramped now. It's like, I don't wanna say, duh.. but DUH!

Your answer for seeing if your compatible with a person is to test drive it. But then, why buy the cow, when the milk is free? What makes me value a person based on sex? Is sex going to pay the bills? I mean, I would think I'd have to talk to them sometime. What if they are not interesting intellctually, but they drive you nuts in the bedroom? What if their values are way left of yours?

THE FAMILY STRUCTURE IS JACKED UP IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO TEST DRIVE, AND NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW SERIOUS FORMING BONDS REALLY ARE!

It would simply be solved if the world was more morally aware and acted with self control when it comes to sex. No one needs to have 2 sexual partners. GREED MAKES THEM FEEL THEY DO.

No one needs to have sex before marriage. Uncontrolled sexual desire makes them peer into it.

No one needs to kill anyone. Wrongful desire of some sort makes one do such.

As long as people think premarital sex is ok, the family structure will be shot. And the current world situation is ample proof. I don't need a science degree to see this. Just look around. Your solution is basically, still have sex people, but be responsible enough to use condoms, while your testing out your mates sexual appetites and potential future.

If people listened to God and did not do this, they'd therefore take sex, and marriage to be serious things (which they are if you did not know) And it would be viewed in a different light than it is now. This is much more responsible than your solution, and it actually beats it over the head with a sledge hammer. This would improve value and worth in both male and female, while your way suggests our bodies are just sexual test tubes, that somehow give the overall individual worth if they are compatible in bed.
 
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