Everything you said is just part of the JW theology. Just because you say that JW follow the bible does not mean they know what anything means. The bible says to act in a certain way. If that's your reason for doing something, it actually defeats the purpose.
I've attended JW meetings, many times, and work with a couple. One guy is all right, the other is a homosexual, who's gotten accused of stuff. Both of them lack the spiritual depth and understanding that you attribute to JWs.
Sure, JWs don't pack heat, slash faces, etc., but, just like a gang member does as his gang tells him, when he attacks an enemy, you do what the JW tell you, when you do whatever you do.
Sensitivity, feeling, is the source of exercising compassion or respecting someone's human rights. I bet you can't even describe compassion, love, or any of the other words you mention.
I read a book, a while ago, by a thinker named Krishnamurti. In it, he says that belief is essential. After all, what would happen if I couldn't believe in something as basic as the sun coming up tomorrow? I'd go nuts, every night, at 8 pm, especially if I wanted to live. Not believing in a pattern that I've witnessed all my life: the sun rising and setting, would be silly.
Now, there are irrational beliefs, beliefs based on no previously studied, or documented, evidence. And no, I don't accept stories in the bible as factual evidence. Rejection of these beliefs is not outlandish and would not drive you insane. In fact, many of the craziest people I see on the trains are religious nut jobs, who tell you that Jesus is coming, etc.
It is filled with prophecies reflecting detailed knowledge of the future—something impossible for humans
2 Pet. 1:20, 21: "No prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit."
▪ Prophecy: Isa. 44:24, 27, 28; 45:1-4: "Jehovah . . . the One saying to the watery deep, ‘Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up’; the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in my saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid.’ This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut: ‘Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out. The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down. . . . For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one, I even proceeded to call you by your name.’" (Writing by Isaiah was completed by about 732 B.C.E.)
□ Fulfillment: Cyrus had not been born when the prophecy was written. The Jews were not taken into exile to Babylon until 617-607 B.C.E., and Jerusalem and its temple were not destroyed until 607 B.C.E. In detail the prophecy was fulfilled starting in 539 B.C.E. Cyrus diverted the waters of the Euphrates River into an artificial lake, the river gates of Babylon were carelessly left open during feasting in the city, and Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. Thereafter, Cyrus liberated the Jewish exiles and sent them back to Jerusalem with instructions to rebuild Jehovah’s temple there.—The Encyclopedia Americana (1956), Vol. III, p. 9; Light From the Ancient Past (Princeton, 1959), Jack Finegan, pp. 227-229; "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" (New York, 1983), pp. 282, 284, 295.
▪ Prophecy: Jer. 49:17, 18: "‘Edom must become an object of astonishment. Everyone passing along by her will stare in astonishment and whistle on account of all her plagues. Just as in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and her neighbor towns,’ Jehovah has said, ‘no man will dwell there.’" (Jeremiah’s recording of prophecies was completed by 580 B.C.E.)
□ Fulfillment: "They [the Edomites] were driven from Palestine in the 2nd century B.C. by Judas Maccabæus, and in 109 B.C. John Hyrcanus, Maccabæan leader, extended the kingdom of Judah to include the w. part of Edomitic lands. In the 1st century B.C. Roman expansion swept away the last vestige of Edomitic independence . . . After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. . . . the name Idumæa [Edom] disappeared from history." (The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, 1952, Vol. 11, p. 4114) Notice that the fulfillment extends down to our day. In no way can it be argued that this prophecy was written after the events had taken place.
▪ Prophecy: Luke 19:41-44; 21:20, 21: "He [Jesus Christ] viewed the city [Jerusalem] and wept over it, saying: . . . ‘The days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.’" Two days later, he counseled his disciples: "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw." (Prophecy spoken by Jesus Christ in 33 C.E.)
□ Fulfillment: Jerusalem revolted against Rome, and in 66 C.E. the Roman army under Cestius Gallus attacked the city. But, as Jewish historian Josephus reports, the Roman commander "suddenly called off his men, abandoned hope though he had suffered no reverse, and flying in the face of all reason retired from the City." (Josephus, the Jewish War, Penguin Classics, 1969, p. 167) This provided opportunity for Christians to flee from the city, which they did, moving to Pella, beyond the Jordan, according to Eusebius Pamphilus in his Ecclesiastical History. (Translated by C. F. Crusé, London, 1894, p. 75) Then around Passover time of the year 70 C.E. General Titus besieged the city, an encircling fence 4.5 miles (7.2 km) long was erected in just three days, and after five months Jerusalem fell. "Jerusalem itself was systematically destroyed and the Temple left in ruins. Archaeological work shows us today just how effective was the destruction of Jewish buildings all over the land."—The Bible and Archaeology (Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1962), J. A. Thompson, p. 299.
ALL OF THESE THINGS ACTUALLY HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN REAL LIFE. NONE OF THIS IS A FABLE. SO YOU CALLING THEM STORIES IS TO BASICALLY DENY ACTUAL RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY.
More power to you though. Good day!
Thank you for your kind wishes. As for your information about this being history, nobody knows when, or where, or by who, most of these scrolls were written. Even carbon dating them would only provide us with approximate dates. Also, these prophesies, as I've said, are specific only to the Hebrews and their semitic relatives, like the Babylonians, which is a limitation that excludes most of mankind. Also, they lack detail.
If I said something like, "the Middle East will be devastated by war, once again," I'd probably be right, based on conflict that is still brewing over there. If the bible said something like: "a man named Edison will become a great inventor," I'd be convinced. This is not evidence, it's a common sense prediction, if any of what's in it even happened.
Want some history? The Babylonians wrote the Code of Hammurabi, which among other things, says that an eye should be taken for an eye. The tablets with the code of Hammurabi on them predate any of the Torahs that exist. The Epic of Gilgamesh, written by the Babylonians, also tells the story of the world being flooded and also predates any bible evidence.
The vague predictions in the bible do not give sufficient details to prove them true. If they contained the name of Jesus, for example, coupled with other evidence, you might say that the old testament predicted Jesus' birth. But, the most convincing evidence that the new testament offers is simply a fulfillment of old prophecy in the present. That's like when the JWs say the world is going to end, after it's already been predicted.
I'm sorry that I can't believe in the God of the Hebrews, the Babylonians, and the other semitic tribes, from the Middle East. I'm sorry I can't believe in a religion that sanctions slavery, repressive, mindless rules, murder of innocent people, and war. I'm sorry I can't follow a religion that was forced on my ancestors and yours. You should really give it up and commit yourself to becoming involved, if you can, in what you know is real.
Even if the Hebrew God exists, I'm sure he would want you to actually live right now, in this world and with these problems. Otherwise, he'd be right here, giving you something to do. Instead, the world has given you something to do.
FREEDOM, TRUTH, REALITY AND SENSITIVITY are incompatible with your book and its history.
For instance, Babylon was once a world power the same way the USA and Great Britain is now. And the Babylonian city was as sprawling a city as say NYC is now. The bible said the Babylon would become a desolate place.
If someone said that NYC will one day become a desolate place, and no one will inhabit it, what would you think the likely hood of that happening would be? Probably very slim.
Regarding Babylon, it was foretold: "She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let their flocks lie down there." (Isaiah 13:20) This prophecy did more than predict a city’s fall. It showed that Babylon would be desolated permanently. You can see evidence of the fulfillment of these words. The uninhabited site of ancient Babylon—about 50 miles [80 km] south of Baghdad, Iraq—is proof that what Jehovah spoke through Isaiah has been fulfilled: "I will sweep her with the broom of annihilation."—Isaiah 14:22, 23.
This annihilation started with the Persian invasion of Babylon, and way down to our day. The desolation of Babylon took a long time for it to pass. Many regimes tried to ressurect the city, even Great leaders like Alexander the great. It never happend. And now, just like the bible says, it is a desolate desert land. All that remains in anceint ruins of Babylon. No inhabitants. So this prophecy is not just related to the Hebrews, everyone can see it came true. So you may need to rethink your stance a little bit if you are the type of person who truly seeks truth, and does not remain ignorant when fact is presented to them.
Here is another prophecy that extends down to our day below.
‘TYRE WILL BECOME A DRYING YARD FOR DRAGNETS’
An example of the astonishing accuracy of Bible prophecy concerns the ancient Phoenician seaport city of Tyre. This city grew to be very great at the expense of other people. She was a manufacturer of metal objects, glassware and purple dyes, a trading center for overland caravans, a great import-export depot. Her merchants and tradesmen boasted of being princely and honorable. (Isa. 23:8) At one time friendly relations existed between Tyre and Israel. But this did not continue, for Tyre eventually allied herself with Israel’s enemies. Because of Tyre’s treachery toward Israel, God inspired his prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others to predict that calamity would come upon this Phoenician seaport. We read, for example:
"This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea. . . . Here I am bringing against Tyre Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon from the north, a king of kings, with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. And I will make you a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what you will become. Never will you be rebuilt; for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."—Ezek. 26:3-5, 7, 14.
Secular history reports that Nebuchadnezzar began a siege of Tyre sometime after destroying Jerusalem and the temple of Jehovah’s worship in 607 B.C.E. The Jewish historian Josephus, drawing upon Phoenician annals and other previously written history, states that Nebuchadnezzar’s siege against Tyre lasted thirteen years. The Bible indicates that Nebuchadnezzar’s forces inflicted considerable damage upon Tyre.—Ezek. 26:8-11.
Tyre recovered from this blow struck by Babylon. However, centuries later, Grecian forces under Alexander the Great moved against Tyre, which at that time was located on an island about half a mile (0.8 kilometer) from the mainland. When the inhabitants refused to capitulate to Alexander, he became enraged and had his men scrape up the ruins of the mainland city and throw them into the sea, thus building a causeway out to the island city. Then a sea battle took place in which Alexander’s forces prevailed. After a siege of seven months, Alexander’s men took the island city. When its inhabitants put up desperate resistance, the city was set on fire. It proved to be as another prophet, Zechariah, had foretold: "In the fire she herself will be devoured."—Zech. 9:4.
Though Tyre kept trying to make a comeback through the centuries, the city repeatedly fell before hostile forces, just as God’s prophet had foretold. (Ezek. 26:3) What is the present condition of Tyre, which was one of the great sea powers of the ancient world? Ruins and a small seaport, called Sour (Sur), mark the site. Nina Jidejian, in her book Tyre Through the Ages (1969), declares: "The port has become a haven today for fishing boats and a place for spreading nets," exactly as prophesied through Ezekiel.—Ezek. 26:5, 14.
And there are more prophecies that began in ancient times, and extended until more recent times.
Does Babylonian, egyptian, Hindu, Buddist, or any other ancient books of a people have such prophetic word in it? Does the Koran? Does any of these books have prophetic word that extends from their time, til ours like the bible?
So this leads a man like myself searching for truth to believe that God indeed is behind the bible. Since no other source on earth could predict such things, what else could it be?
Let's try an example...using the following quote from the Bible.
Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Now the literal and CORRECT interpretation of this is very simple...you sleep with a man as you would a woman or vice versa...and you as the BELIEVER..GOD'S follower...you must act to put these people to death. PERIOD.
There is nothing in this verse that can be re-interpreted to mean anything other than what it is expressly commanding for the follower to do in this situation. It's GOD's command for you to kill a homosexual. PERIOD.
Now if this verse bothers you MORALLY, first off it means your morals on this matter of homosexuality has clearly surpassed GOD's. The second point is, there is no way to re-interpret this verse as to being an allegory or metaphor because to do so..would negate this being GOD's perfect word. Perfection cannot withstand correction, it's already supposed to be perfect and not in need of correction in the first place.
The only way this verse can be re-interpreted is to completely ignore it all together. At which case the believer is then taking a different moral stance on this issue GOD has clearly stated his thoughts on.
Now to your other point..."inspiration". This is even more problematic that what you realize. If this is the inspired word from GOD, written by mortal human men...then how come GOD has allowed this to stand for so long? Just didn't seem to go into the ear of the very writer and wrote this and say "if you don't correct it I'm smiting your ass".
And it also removes GOD, completely from the text as well. If all of it was simply just "inspired" as to how people viewed GOD...which quite frankly is an *******..especially in the OLD Testament...then it's humans who are against homosexuality not GOD. Then there is no moral basis from the divine aka "GOD" for homophobia..and rather GOD is then used as a smoke screen for one's own homophobic thinking.
Perfection the word itself maybe subjective, but the concept is not. Perfect is as it sounds. Nothing to be added, or taken away. Complete, flawless, no mistakes.
Either something is perfect, or it is not. Perfect is always 100%..always flawless..all the time. Anything less...is not perfect..but GOOD.
Like I said if you believe that slavery IS wrong, that your wife IS NOT your property, that having a concubine IS wrong, that killing a non-believer is NOT morally justified, that kids should NOT BE stoned for killing their parents, that forcing a victim to be married to her rapist IS wrong....if you feel these things are in error. Then you morally disagree with what the bible is preaching...and which like I said places you above GOD's very morality...if this is in fact his own words...or "inspired" to him.
In which case makes the bible not only outdated, but useless as a reference book for contemporary (current) moral values. Which then leave the only reason..for glorifying the Bible is traditionalism. Just like no one is calling for slavery to make a comeback...somethings should be better left in the past..simply because we have evolved beyond them.
Even the Bible states there is a time to put away childish things..and clinging to a book..which has never, nor can fully grow up with you..because there is only one way to interpret it...quite simply is of no practical use in the modern world today.
Lyfe, I thinks its time for you to marry 4Realz because he just raped you.
The Mosaic Law was perfect law. It was put into place just to show mankind we need to accept Christ for forgiveness of sins due to the fact we're im perfect and cannot possibly keep a perfect law. That is why we are no longer under the covenant of that perfect law, because we cannot possibly follow it.
Here is the link to the page where I referenced the Law for LJ4ptplay.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Homosexuality is a choice one makes throughout their life, the same way one chooses to live a life of fornication, or stealing, or lying, or murdering, etc. These were all forbidden in the law, and if the law could have been kept, it would have meant perfect people would be living to keep it (Like Jesus did, because he was perfect)
Everyone else fell short of the law, which is why no one else is called the ransom sacrifice like Christ is. Christ is the ransom for forgiveness of sins based on the fact he lived the law perfectly, and was unjustly murdered. But God could now use his life on earth as a sacrifice for all who believe he indeed is the Christ.
And to say we can't grow up with, or basically say the bible can't be used for Guidance because it can only be viewed one way, hence making it invalid and outdated is silly. Because if everyone tried their darndest to do what God's word the bible says only benefits us, the world would be in much, much, much better shape.
And not only for right now, but for as long as mankind followed what is in the bible, it would remain that way. So if mankind could live forever, and they applied the principles of the bible forever, the world would never be in tatters like it is now. And It does not take a rocket scientists to understand that simple logic.
So all you are trying to use is your human philosophy vs God's, and you can never win that battle. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] < Human Philosophy never equals God's knowledge.
So like I said you and your sick ****ing GOD...agree that it's fine...to beat women...take slaves...have a rapist marry it's victim....and kill non-believers....
And how are you people not completely ****ing insane once again??
Excuse me the clinical term for you folks would be...
The key feature of this subtype of schizophrenia is the combination of false beliefs (delusions) and hearing voices (auditory hallucinations), with more nearly normal emotions and cognitive functioning (cognitive functions include reasoning, judgment, and memory). The delusions of paranoid schizophrenics usually involve thoughts of being persecuted or harmed by others or exaggerated opinions of their own importance, but may also reflect feelings of jealousy or excessive religiosity. The delusions are typically organized into a coherent framework. Paranoid schizophrenics function at a higher level than other subtypes, but are at risk for suicidal or violent behavior under the influence of their delusions.
Yo, I don't want to knock you for being spiritual. I'm spiritual and look to the bible, as well as other books, for spiritual growth and encouragement. I just want you, and others like you, to be free, while you want me, and others, to be imprisoned.
I want you to live now, and you want me to live in the past. I want you to live, and experience, compassion, love, discipline, sacrifice, and you want me to read, and believe, what others have spoken of these. I want this for me, as much as I want it for you. And I know that's a bit selfish, but I'm tired of what I see. And I see the so-called spiritual folk as a major cause of what I see.
Take your humanity back, take back that ancient freedom, that ancient feeling of uncertainty and humility. Stop being so confident that you cannot challenge a thing that you read in some book that was written for, and by, people that have nothing to do with your ancestors, with life today.
You must ask yourself why all of the major religions have failed, each one as much as every other. None of them have brought us real enlightenment, real understanding. This is because true spirituality is in it of itself the solution, and true spirituality requires, and urges us, to be free and aware, it does not care about your book, and it never will. You must care about it.
I'll leave you with that, and leave things as they are. God bless.