Compassion, love, discipline, sacrfice is what being a Jehovah's witness is truly about. As Christians, it is our wish to emulate our loving Leader Jesus in his ways, and he personified those qualities.
And when you say every religion has failed, and none have brought real enlightenment, real understanding, this is simply not true at all. Jehovah's witnesses have been for quite some time now enlightening people about truths of the bible, to help them sway away from philosophical views of the bible, which always fall short of the author's theme of his own book.
And if spirituality does not care about the book as you say, why would you ever at anytime refer to the book for "spiritual growth and encouragement" as you said in the first paragraph of your last response? You say God bless, yet you don't believe in God's book? How can you truly be spiritual, if you deny the one who provides spirit for you to abide in?
If spirituality requires one to submit to obedience, and stupidity....and in the off chance about .0000999% there is a GOD...then I'd rather burn in hell that to live my life as an observant fool to a vindictive GOD who gives no aid even to his most devout, folks whom even feel God is good whence he's failed and let them down, and a GOD who people ever make take responsibility for the crafts he's created.
You want enlightenment seek knowledge, you want obedience seek religion. And yes, religion does not inspire knowledge if it did..it would abandon it's backwards ass moral tales..and conform to secular humanism.
Well, you can't emulate something that requires freedom. Compassion requires an understanding, as well as freedom to act. As is the case with many other denominations of Christianity, as well as other religions, compassion is not clearly defined in the bible. Its meaning isn't defined, which is why many Christians lack the ability to put what they speak of into practice.
I do believe in God, but not in the way you do: as a man or being. I believe in the bible's value, as a source for spiritual enrichment, for being able to look at the ancient wisdom of one set of humankind's ancestors. Some of the bible, I find useless. Other parts, I find to give examples of sacrifice and grace that people just don't understand, and it's sad.
Everything is, "you see how Job did this or that and was rewarded for his faith," "Jesus died for your sins." But, where is the understanding? For example, Lyfe, think about the story of Jesus, which, in my study I've found to be a beautiful example of spiritual grace. Most people just say that he died for one's sins, he paid a ransom. The story really is spiritual grace, someone saving you at that last moment, when you've fallen, when you've been hurt, violated, whatever, yet it becomes a story about owing Jesus for saving you, owing him loyalty and worship.
This is just one example. There are many, and I know, from going to JW meetings, bible studies, etc., that they're not spoken of as they should be, by your church. I know from attending Buddhist, Hindu, and other meetings, that they also tend to fall short.
I say that the bible simply does not have a monopoly on truth, it cannot control truth or spirituality. Spirituality is in learning, in saving a life, in almost everything beautiful. It takes commitment to become very spiritual, and I commend yours, I just believe you need to free that commitment up.
What's stupid about not murdering? Not fornicating? Not becoming an adulterer? Lying, stealing, coveting? Answer this, would the world not be a better place if human being obeyed to NOT doing these things? None of you bible bashers have answered this question yet!!!
And again, you have not been paying attention to the bible any. If you truly understood the issue of soveriegnty, you would understand why the most devout would have to suffer some sort if they will support God's side of the issue. Why? Because the enemy will see they do because he knows they have the truth. People oblivious to the truth, philosophers, so called spritually free and social thinkers, are in the enemies hip pocket.
Secondly, there is only one way to be a devout believer in Jehovah. Not 5, not 10, not 15, ONE. So even aperson who considers themself devout, may indeed not be such.
Seeking Jehovah is the begining of Knowledge. Who else can you learn more from than the being who imparts wisdom to all?
What's bad about it, is that it's a rule not to kill, instead of telling you why it's evil, why it's selfish, heartless. This lack of understanding is why the world is still, and will forever be screwed up. You can tell people to do things that are good, but they're not really virtuous for following those things, without a good understanding of what those things mean, not even why you should follow them: that's just a value (this is better than that) judgment. I'm talking about seeing how beautiful and life-saving something like compassion is.
The religion you follow, and all others, have failed. If they hadn't failed, you would know what I just said, everyone would. And, since I don't know half of what I'm talking about, you'd be telling me something extraordinary, instead of ordinary and typical. I mean that without any disrespect or cynicism. I know you believe, but I can't understand why.
I gotta agree with realz, I can't obey blindly or even knowingly. I can be good and compassionate, if I'm allowed to do it in freedom, not as a slave.
Because not murdering is illogical. You eliminate threats, you do not keep them around. The Christian concept of turn the other cheek, is not only inhuman. But morally fragmented. Hitler for example is not exactly the kind of person one would wish to keep around, simply because you deem all human life to be of value. Simply, anyone whom would murder without and reasonable just causation needs to be put down immediately. The murder sitting on death row right now, or the rapist doesn't NOT need to be killed because it's a sin...they need to be killed because they have already proven they are a threat to society and to others. It would be one thing if these folks did something that only harmed themselves...but they did not. Threats are very simple...if it's trying to kill you it's a threat. End of story.
And then let's get into the subject of killing itself. Doing so for a GOD is not proper justification. Gods and all other diety's tend to be quiet mum in today's world on it..and what all of them have said previously is that it is in fact not only just, but as well morally acceptable to kill in their name...which is moral cowardice if not anything else. After all the very fact that an all powerful GOD is capable of giving life, yet does not have the balls to do their own killing and has to ask mortals to do their own is essentially a cosmic failure.
Fornication. Not having sex before marriage is just as well stupid for logical reasons of the marriage itself. If you are a person with a high sex drive, naturally. You just constantly think of sex, and feel that it is something that should be done with high frequency..and your mate is not...then why get married? You two are not compatiable. When you look at the TOP 5 reasons for divorce pull any survey...sex and infidelity are in there. Why? Simply...you cannot have a sports car for a driver content to do the speed limit. Period. If you like sex or your wife have high thresholds for such..then you marry someone with a lower. You're not going to be happy, and unhappiness translates not only into other aspects of the relationship but makes compensation that much more difficult.
Because you then start to compromise and ponder...that tis okay to not be as sexually free as you wish..but she's a good person. Arguments develop, connection is degraded. She may feel you want sexual demands too much, her too little. Then what? One must have sex before marriage in order to remain pure to self principles. Sexual desire of such for what is presumably going to be forever, this needs to be addressed well well before a serious relationship develops fully. If not, see you at divorce court. Because in the end...what you truly seek will rise to the surface.
Adultery. Just see the above. If people found their sexual equal before marriage...you wouldn't have the need for adultery nor would it happen. Basically, people who needs their brains ****ed out...getting their brains ****ed out..aren't going anywhere. After all, you don't leave paradise right??
Lying, stealing, coveting. Let's try this from the last one out. Without coveting there would be no jobs, no economy..so this is ****ing stupid. Stealing...people still because they lack resources oppurtunity..or from sheer laziness. It is easier to steal than it is to work for it, tis logical. But 99% of folks if they had the knowledge, and skill to land a much better job...would do so in a heartbeat and would not give two thoughts to stealing.
Lying...People lie for a ton of reasons. Most lies...are however from say it with me "good intentions". I can make the case right now that religion is the biggest LIAR of them all. It makes promises it can't possibly PROVE are accurate, nor any guarantees of it's success can be shown to the new customer. People also lie they feel to "protect" the one they love.
Maybe your wife's cooking sucks, maybe your son is an idiot, but you don't say these things..in order to build self esteem, confidence, and just simply pain. But doing so is doing what? "Bearing false witness as well"...so lying as well is at times a necessary thing. If you were suddenly captured by Muslim terrorists whom demanded your conversion to Islam..you wouldn't lie to get back to your family? You'd refuse??...Get killed and leave your family father and husband-less..only a fool would die for a GOD which they cannot prove..instead of for a family which has times over proven their value.
The human world would be better off if people did not still cling to childish fantasies. Period. I've already given the list of the atrocities committed in the name of religion, and you folks simply want to sweep it under the rug. It's not like these people were not as devout, or did not believe. You're embarrassed by them because they killed in the name of GOD, the same GOD whether by different name or means of faith....still the same source in which you claim is the essence of humanity and it greatly bothers you as a believer. That such people could ever render such not only to do, but to as well in accord with GOD's will...and morally justified.
The very fact the most devout suffer...is the simple point..of why faith in GOD makes you a failure. If GOD really cared about his most devout...many of them would not come from lives of complete pain and ****. What you mean to tell me GOD couldn't have both born you into a family of nice people, with a good amount of money..and still led you to him? I call bull****. Like I said, delusion is very powerful to the mind.
If you want to discuss delusion the function of the right side of the brain..and how people who have limited function in this area..tend to feel more spiritual and one with the universe.
Killing someone because they kill others is because they are a proven viable threat. Killing someone in the name of GOD because you believe them to be infidels, or non-righteous is insanity and lunacy at the highest of levels of brain dysfunction.
Who exactly this enemy you speak of? A demon somewhere around the mantle or better yet at Earth's core...that makes people suffer...beats them..makes them work in smoldering conditions...for all eternity.
In short the GOD of all the Christian sects is sadistic and cruel...and his followers are good measure of this truth.
Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.
I've seen non religious people have this. I don't know why you seem to take Compassion to be something more than what it actually means, But a True Christian will do his best to live with Compassion. It's not as tough to do as you make it seem. Compassion is not some sort of sacred secret. You just have to want to have love enough to feel it. Many examples in the bible have lived up to the definition of Compassion. Now maybe you have a different version, but the one in the dictionary fits a lot of examples in the bible.
Now why should we be loyal to him for the ransom? Easy. Without that ransom, we could never have a way out of sin and death! Both are curses from the first parents that imperfect man could never buy back, since the first parents commited sin in a perfect state. So Jesus wrongful death of his perfect life ransoms or equals Adams once perfect life. This enables humans to gain back the relationship humans had with God before sin and gain perfection in life, and death being nomore. Which was a lot better than the world is now, and that relationship with him is. Plus, Jesus is King of the government that will accomplish this. So again, why not be loyal to it?
No other spiritual guide book can say the same. None. So this leads me to believe the Bible is above and beyond those other sources. If there is a God, then his word would produce such things the bible has in it. I would not have to look here and there and everywhere to search for the truth. The Bible accomplishes that. Every question mankind needs to understand and live practically is answered in the book.
Is there a God?
Why are we here?
What's our purpose in life?
Why do we die?
Can we live again?
Why does God allow suffering?
When will suffering end?
Can mankind live in peace and Love?
Why is the world so bad if there is a God?
All of these are relevant questions the bible has anwers for. Along with prophetic word and other amazing things. Why would I need to go to Budda, when he can't provide this?
Why would I need to follow the Koran when it does not provide this? Hindu scribes? Why should I believe in evolution when it does not provide this?
But in the end, it's my perspective, vs yours, and niether will win in the battle of opinions.
So best of love and life to you and yours, and Im sure you will ditto for me and mine. Good talk, and good day.
News flash to the most brilliant mind on earth, people are without religion more and more each generation now. This is why fornication is so ramped now. It's like, I don't wanna say, duh.. but DUH!
Your answer for seeing if your compatible with a person is to test drive it. But then, why buy the cow, when the milk is free? What makes me value a person based on sex? Is sex going to pay the bills? I mean, I would think I'd have to talk to them sometime. What if they are not interesting intellctually, but they drive you nuts in the bedroom? What if their values are way left of yours?
THE FAMILY STRUCTURE IS JACKED UP IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO TEST DRIVE, AND NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW SERIOUS FORMING BONDS REALLY ARE!
It would simply be solved if the world was more morally aware and acted with self control when it comes to sex. No one needs to have 2 sexual partners. GREED MAKES THEM FEEL THEY DO.
No one needs to have sex before marriage. Uncontrolled sexual desire makes them peer into it.
No one needs to kill anyone. Wrongful desire of some sort makes one do such.
As long as people think premarital sex is ok, the family structure will be shot. And the current world situation is ample proof. I don't need a science degree to see this. Just look around. Your solution is basically, still have sex people, but be responsible enough to use condoms, while your testing out your mates sexual appetites and potential future.
If people listened to God and did not do this, they'd therefore take sex, and marriage to be serious things (which they are if you did not know) And it would be viewed in a different light than it is now. This is much more responsible than your solution, and it actually beats it over the head with a sledge hammer. This would improve value and worth in both male and female, while your way suggests our bodies are just sexual test tubes, that somehow give the overall individual worth if they are compatible in bed.
IF EVERYONE LISTENED TO GOD WE'D ALL BE ****ING DEAD RIGHT NOW.
One should get married because their partner they feel makes them complete. But it also has to do what you feel marriage is in the first place. If you are already in a good stable relationship, and are monogamous to each other...then that is marriage. The only difference is you don't have some superficial piece of paper to say you've married them. After all, you got plenty of folks whom are married and commit adultery..so we KNOW FOR A FACT...marriage does not mean fidelity automatically. Having a stable relationship however, is the path to having a union in which no one cheats.
Marriage does not make you magically conform to a set of behaviors you already weren't going to commit in the first place. If you just cannot see yourself only have sex with one person the rest of your life, you should not get married. PERIOD. Commitment has to come before marriage, marriage does not create true commitment if this was the case like I said, adultery could not happen.
And as well your linking two very different things. Sex is part of the aspect of the relationship, not the whole part. Okay the sex is great. But what are the other qualities he or she has? But do not sit here and lie and state that sex is too not apart of relationship building, to deny that it is..is lying.
The family structure is ****ed up because people have pre-concieved notions about what marriage is not only about as far as control and domination in which this aspect clearly comes from religion. But also because they simply pick partners not suited to their tastes, other than sexual desire. If you pick a mate to have children with...marrying her or him is not going to fix the fact you two do not get along.
I don't care how much you try and sit there and lament about how marriage would fix family structure, you're just simply denying the bigger problems contained within most marriages..globally. Does not matter whether two parents are married in order to be good parents...matters if the two people that had the kids can get along first...and still be responsible in raising their kids despite their philosophical differences.
Having sex before marriage is necessary like I said in order to avoid the problems with the relationship down the line. If humans are responsible for their own choices...and your GOD backs this..then he needs to shut the **** up about what goes in on a human relationship and you folks as well.
But let me ask this...Did you have sex before marriage?
People being responsible for themselves in all aspects including sexuality, is the first step in having the ability to be responsible for one creating a sustaining a stable family structure. Not the other way around. Plenty of marriages out their of "convenience" because someone got knocked up, then get married..then eventually wind up breaking up..why does this happen that Mr. Jesus??
No your point beats nothing over the head with a sledge hammer, it simply tries to use a sledge hammer to drive a nail through a wall as long as the Great Wall of China...without first recognizing that in order to dismantle and take the wall apart you must look at it's architecture.
Once again you lose and your views are that of simple being. Leave these complex issues for those of us who are actual adults and think about these things with a rational practical basis. Go do what it is you folks do best...pray for a miracle. We are too busy working on solutions.
Real, you make a lot of sense. I've been trying to explain this to lyfe. Just because people talk about this stuff, marriage, fornication, etc., doesn't mean they know a damn thing.
Like you said, love is love, and sex is sex. If you get married, that situation can be loaded with so much bull, so many reasons besides the right ones. And you know, people get married and divorce 50 percent of the time. It's a social control, like you've been saying. If you really love, how can anything that comes from that be evil?
This stuff is real simple: superficial vs. deep. Love is always deep, if one truly know what it means. It's "I love this man or woman" vs. "I love this chicken sandwich." People just won't put the books down and confront reality itself, for what it, not what somebody else says, is. It makes someone who actually cares very sad. Why look in a dried up, old book for what's right outside the church doors.
We're just zombies, walking around, same Sh*t, every day, over and over, no feelings, no concerns for anything other than themselves and being saved. We're doomed!!!!!!!!
Last edited by OGKnickfan; Aug 14, 2008 at 19:32.
Sex is ok so long as condoms are used at any age she decides to let her hormones rage beyond her control. Say this happens now at 13. Clearly, she is not ready for a REAL relationship at 13. But she just can't control her hormones. And besides, her dad says sex is cool as long as she uses condoms. This continues throughout her life, boyfriend after boyfriend, or as you basically put it, test drive after test drive after test drive, after test drive. When she gets of age to be ready for marriage, would she really be better off than a woman who abstained from sex until she was mature enough to know she is ready to marry and wait for sex until then?
You really wanna say that? Are you apt to marry a regularly test driven woman, or one fresh to the lot?
Marriages of convenience stem from people usually fornicating before they are married. If they had waited until they were sure about eachother, it would have given it added chance to work. Mainly because they know they did it for the right ALL the right reasons. So again , God's way is best. Because marriage before sex solves the right reasons. It would make sure that you got involved for much more than a test drive, or kids before marriage, etc.