Knicks4lyfe
Starter
If he can make it, I am pretty sure he can break it. And remake it.. and Break it.. and remake it.. and break it...
Christianity in 30 Seconds
- Thread starter KnicksFan4Realz
- Start date
If he can make it, I am pretty sure he can break it. And remake it.. and Break it.. and remake it.. and break it...
The president of Iran doesn't believe the Holocaust ever took place. So that you know the facts, 6 Million Jews were killed out of an estimated total of 9 to 11 Million, so Jews were most of the people killed during the Holocaust. That was 2/3 of the Jewish population at that time in the European area. You ever hear of the "Final Solution"? That was the original plan from Hilter to exterminate European Jewry, or European Jews. Hitler himself said the phrase "the soluton of the Jewish question in Europe." To say that the Holocaust was not a Jewish Genocide shows me your lack of historical knowledge. And after all of the evidence proves this, the President of Iran still doesn't believe in these events. So the Holocaust was a planned Jewish Genocide that was also the murder of other groups such as Gypsies, Soviets, POW's, Communists, Ethnic Poles, Slavics, Homosexuals, disabled people, etc. And it still all added up to the Jews being killed the most out of all the groups.
Do your research before you make a statement such as the one I bolded. I will pray for you.
No offense, but a lot of the stuff you write makes me wonder the same thing. Like when you said that Iraq is long time allies with Russia, and Iraq is going to get nuclear weapons from Russia, even though Russia is allies with Iran. You also pointed something out about Magog, but the map from the Bible doesn't show North America, South America, Australia, Antarctica, Western Europe, or Southern Africa. Most of the Earth isn't even on the map from the Bible. So even if the predictions come true, it has no specific predictions for the other parts of the world. You also say that the west is vulnerable, but there's no predictions in the Bible that says North America or South America is going to get attacked, because the bible doesn't talk about those continents.
KnicksFan4Realz
Benchwarmer
You just make this far too easy for me. The "free will" argument. Ohh this is classic like an all white NIKE AF1. And as well I see I am going to have to explain Judaism as well. It's amazing what little you know about the faith of Judaism...eventhough it is the parent to all Western monotheistic one's.
Pull up a chair because your about to get schooled. *Cracks knuckles, this is going to be a long one*
See next post for full response to both questions.
KnicksFan4Realz
Benchwarmer
Explaining Free Will
FREE WILL
First off the simple fact there being an "ALL KNOWING" god completely negates free will. Simply because this would then leave god with one option....rather the option that causes the most good. Therefore a perfectly loving GOD, cannot have free will. Because hs is bound to make the decision that will only do the most "good", ergo only one choice..ergo since there is only one choice and cannot make a choice less than the "most good", ergo no free will to choose "less good" as an option. Ergo, NO FREE WILL.
This is more interesting if you hold that everything God does is perfect by causal definition. But the argument destroys itself, as another author on that site points out: If God chooses one act rather than another, then the act that God chooses must be the better act in order for God to have chosen it. Either that, or God behaves randomly (which is not free will). When God acts, it does so perfectly... so there is therefore no "choices" to be made: Whatever choices God makes are the best ones (even between two apparently perfect options), and therefore a perfect God cannot possibly have any genuine free will.
In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - its entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow its predestined path.
Free will is the making of choices according to our own deliberation. Deliberation requires thought, and thought requires change over time. If time was frozen and nothing changed, no-one would have free will. Free will is a concept that only exists inside the timeline. If God is, as is required, a creator of Time and Space, then God exists outside of time. It is senseless to talk of "before" the big bang, "before" the creation of time because there was no "before", no passage of time before then.
In this "void" where nothing changes, God has no free will. Its thoughts can't change and flow because time does not change for anything that extends outside of 4D. Taking the hypercube as an example, it may *appear* to us to change over time as we view it in a series of 3D slices, but in reality the hypercube is completely unchanging from its own point of view.
From God's own point of view there is no "thinking", no change in states of mind over time. All choices were instantly made according to what is most "perfect" (if God is a perfect creator), there were never any choices or willpower involved. By its very nature, if God is perfect and created Time, God has had no free will to either engage, change or affect any free will on its own part.
If God changes (i.e., thinks) from one state of mind to another, then there must be a reason. The new state must be better than the old state. But this is impossible if God is perfect: It is not possible to "improve" God, therefore, God cannot change and God cannot possess any ongoing thoughts at all. No free will. The only possible mental state for a God is a static, unchanging status-quo.
If God created free will then God had no choice in doing so. It must have been predestined to create it. But what created that predestination? God couldn't have created free will; and as God is the ultimate creator, if it didn't create free will then it means that free will doesn't exist, for itself or anything else. Questions and problems like these show that free will is not a valid concept within theism.
FREE WILL
First off the simple fact there being an "ALL KNOWING" god completely negates free will. Simply because this would then leave god with one option....rather the option that causes the most good. Therefore a perfectly loving GOD, cannot have free will. Because hs is bound to make the decision that will only do the most "good", ergo only one choice..ergo since there is only one choice and cannot make a choice less than the "most good", ergo no free will to choose "less good" as an option. Ergo, NO FREE WILL.
This is more interesting if you hold that everything God does is perfect by causal definition. But the argument destroys itself, as another author on that site points out: If God chooses one act rather than another, then the act that God chooses must be the better act in order for God to have chosen it. Either that, or God behaves randomly (which is not free will). When God acts, it does so perfectly... so there is therefore no "choices" to be made: Whatever choices God makes are the best ones (even between two apparently perfect options), and therefore a perfect God cannot possibly have any genuine free will.
In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - its entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow its predestined path.
Free will is the making of choices according to our own deliberation. Deliberation requires thought, and thought requires change over time. If time was frozen and nothing changed, no-one would have free will. Free will is a concept that only exists inside the timeline. If God is, as is required, a creator of Time and Space, then God exists outside of time. It is senseless to talk of "before" the big bang, "before" the creation of time because there was no "before", no passage of time before then.
In this "void" where nothing changes, God has no free will. Its thoughts can't change and flow because time does not change for anything that extends outside of 4D. Taking the hypercube as an example, it may *appear* to us to change over time as we view it in a series of 3D slices, but in reality the hypercube is completely unchanging from its own point of view.
From God's own point of view there is no "thinking", no change in states of mind over time. All choices were instantly made according to what is most "perfect" (if God is a perfect creator), there were never any choices or willpower involved. By its very nature, if God is perfect and created Time, God has had no free will to either engage, change or affect any free will on its own part.
If God changes (i.e., thinks) from one state of mind to another, then there must be a reason. The new state must be better than the old state. But this is impossible if God is perfect: It is not possible to "improve" God, therefore, God cannot change and God cannot possess any ongoing thoughts at all. No free will. The only possible mental state for a God is a static, unchanging status-quo.
If God created free will then God had no choice in doing so. It must have been predestined to create it. But what created that predestination? God couldn't have created free will; and as God is the ultimate creator, if it didn't create free will then it means that free will doesn't exist, for itself or anything else. Questions and problems like these show that free will is not a valid concept within theism.
KnicksFan4Realz
Benchwarmer
As to the Jews
What you don't know about Judaism is really concerning, considering it is the parent to all Christian belief. As I've said before I did not become an atheist by just simply merely being pissed at some invisible bully. But rather through learning knowledge, asking questions, and using logic. I've studied religion my entire life as a personal quest before I got into the Army, and after.
I know Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Shinto, Anaimaism, Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism. All off hand because I actually got off my ass long ago...and sought my own answers rather than be handed a book and told to believe because I told you so.
Your not as smart as I am, if you did I wouldn't be about to attempt explaining why Jews reject the divinity of Jesus to you. If you were truly up on your religion, you'd know why.
But here it goes anyway....
BTW...using ad hominem's in an intellectual discussion just further confirms you've lost but not accepting of defeat.
As to the JEWS
Judaism 101...
The Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah for several BIBLICAL reasons. Now I'm going to use a bit of Christianity so I can explain this in terms you can understand.
Christians identify Messiah with Jesus and define him as God incarnated as a man, and believe he died for the sins of humanity as a blood sacrifice. This means that one has to accept the idea that one person's death can atone for another person's sins. However, this is opposed to what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 24:26, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sin," which is also expressed in Exodus 32:30-35, and Ezekiel 18.
The Christian idea of the messiah also assumes that God wants, and will accept, a human sacrifice. After all, it was either Jesus-the-god who died on the cross, or Jesus-the-human.
Jews believe that God cannot die, and so all that Christians are left with in the death of Jesus on the cross, is a human sacrifice. However, in Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls human sacrifice an abomination, and something He hates: "for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods." All human beings are sons or daughters, and any sacrifice to God of any human being would be something that God would hate.
The Christian idea of the messiah consists of ideas that are UnBiblical.
You must understand that both Jews and Christians use the word messiah, but the meaning of the word is different in each faith.The Christian understanding is that the Messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.
But they(Jews) are taught in their(Jews) Bible(Torah) that no one can die for the sins of another. In Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [Deuteronomy 24:16]
In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses believes that, perhaps, he can atone for the sin of the People of Israel, when they made the Golden Calf. He tried to offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the people. When Moses tells God to write Moses out of His book, he means to be written out of the Book of Life, which means Moses was asking to die for the sins of the People. God's response was "No, it does not work that way, each man dies for his own sin:"
And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Eternal; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Eternal, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Eternal said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Eternal plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. [ Exodus 32:30-35]
The whole of chapter 18 of the book of Ezekiel is about this idea, that no one can die for someone else's sin.
The word of the Eternal came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Eternal God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Eternal God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. [Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27]
What you don't know about Judaism is really concerning, considering it is the parent to all Christian belief. As I've said before I did not become an atheist by just simply merely being pissed at some invisible bully. But rather through learning knowledge, asking questions, and using logic. I've studied religion my entire life as a personal quest before I got into the Army, and after.
I know Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Shinto, Anaimaism, Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism. All off hand because I actually got off my ass long ago...and sought my own answers rather than be handed a book and told to believe because I told you so.
Your not as smart as I am, if you did I wouldn't be about to attempt explaining why Jews reject the divinity of Jesus to you. If you were truly up on your religion, you'd know why.
But here it goes anyway....
BTW...using ad hominem's in an intellectual discussion just further confirms you've lost but not accepting of defeat.
As to the JEWS
Judaism 101...
The Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah for several BIBLICAL reasons. Now I'm going to use a bit of Christianity so I can explain this in terms you can understand.
Christians identify Messiah with Jesus and define him as God incarnated as a man, and believe he died for the sins of humanity as a blood sacrifice. This means that one has to accept the idea that one person's death can atone for another person's sins. However, this is opposed to what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 24:26, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sin," which is also expressed in Exodus 32:30-35, and Ezekiel 18.
The Christian idea of the messiah also assumes that God wants, and will accept, a human sacrifice. After all, it was either Jesus-the-god who died on the cross, or Jesus-the-human.
Jews believe that God cannot die, and so all that Christians are left with in the death of Jesus on the cross, is a human sacrifice. However, in Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls human sacrifice an abomination, and something He hates: "for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods." All human beings are sons or daughters, and any sacrifice to God of any human being would be something that God would hate.
The Christian idea of the messiah consists of ideas that are UnBiblical.
You must understand that both Jews and Christians use the word messiah, but the meaning of the word is different in each faith.The Christian understanding is that the Messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.
But they(Jews) are taught in their(Jews) Bible(Torah) that no one can die for the sins of another. In Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [Deuteronomy 24:16]
In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses believes that, perhaps, he can atone for the sin of the People of Israel, when they made the Golden Calf. He tried to offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the people. When Moses tells God to write Moses out of His book, he means to be written out of the Book of Life, which means Moses was asking to die for the sins of the People. God's response was "No, it does not work that way, each man dies for his own sin:"
And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Eternal; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Eternal, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Eternal said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Eternal plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. [ Exodus 32:30-35]
The whole of chapter 18 of the book of Ezekiel is about this idea, that no one can die for someone else's sin.
The word of the Eternal came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Eternal God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Eternal God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. [Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27]
KnicksFan4Realz
Benchwarmer
As to the Jews PART II
Continued from ABOVE...
PART II...
The Christian idea of the messiah is that Jesus was the blood sacrifice that saves everyone from his or her sin. But who, EXACTLY died on that cross? If it was Jesus-the-god, then how can God die? If it was only Jesus-the-human, then all Christians have in the death of Jesus is a human sacrifice. And what, EXACTLY does God say about human sacrifice in the TaNaCH?
In Deuteronomy, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him!:
[Deuteronomy 12:30-31]
In Jeremiah, God tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind!:
[Jeremiah 19:4-6]
We see the same thing in Psalm 106 and in Ezekiel 16:
Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. [Psalm 106:37-38]
Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter? [Ezekiel 16:20]
And yet they are to then turn around and believe that God changed His mind and required human sacrifice, and then it was the sacrifice of His own human son that God wanted? After telling the Jews to stay away from pagan practices and pagan beliefs, God then changes His mind and says, "Okay, now go ahead and believe in a human sacrifice, just as these very pagans believe?" Everyone is a son or a daughter. God tells us that any human sacrifice is an abomination, something He hates, and something so horrible, that it would never even come into His mind to demand it of us. And human sacrifice was practiced by the pagans.
You must understand that the Christian definition to the term, Messiah, is pagan. How do all Christians, define the term messiah? They define it exactly as the pagans understood their dying/saving gods and heroes. The ancient world is filled with examples. Mithra, Adonis, Dionysis, Attis, Ra, and many others were born in the Winter, died in the Spring, and came back to life.
Along with this, they believed that their followers would not die, but have immortal life, since the death of the hero/god acted as their sacrifice for their sins. The pagan world was filled with gods who were the product of a human mother and a god for the father. Even Hercules had Zeus for a father, and a human mother.
When the earliest Christians would come into the synagogues and missionize, they would get kicked out. They were not allowed to stay and preach, they were rejected, because their message was pagan, was recognized as such by the Jews, and they were removed and separated from the Jewish people as a result!!!!
So how have the Jews, who invented the term, always defined the term Messiah?
1. The Messiah is born of two human parents, as we said.But Jesus, according to Christian theology, was born of a union between a Human woman and God, rather than two HUMAN parents, as was Hercules, and Dionysis, as well as many other pagan gods.
2. The Messiah can trace his lineage through his human biological father, back to King David (Isaiah 11:1,10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:21-28; Jeremiah 30:7-10; 33:14-16; and Hosea 3:4-5). But Jesus's lineage cannot go through his human father, according to Christian theology, as Jesus's father was not Joseph the husband of Mary. According to Christian theology, Jesus's father was God.
3. The Messiah traces his lineage only through King Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-17; I Chronicles 22:9-10). But according to Luke 3:31, Jesus was a descendant of Nathan, another son of King David, and not a descendant of King David through King Solomon.
4. The Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to both Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.
According to the Jewish definition of the term, the Real Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove because these changes take place in the real world. It is for this task that the real messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah -- one who is anointed. These changes, that one will be able to see and perceive in the real world, include:
1. The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6), which is contradicted by Jesus in Matthew 10:34-37.
2. The Messiah re-establishes the Davidic dynasty through the messiah's own children (Daniel 7:13-14). But Jesus had no children.
3. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, between all peoples, and between all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above.)
4. The Messiah brings about the universal world-wide conversion of all peoples to Judaism, or at least to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
5. The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
6. The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of God is God (Isaiah 11:9). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
7. The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9). It isn't.
8. The Messiah gathers to Israel, all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24). Many of the ten lost tribes remain lost.
9. The Messiah rebuilds The Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28). It hasn't been rebuilt.
10. There will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30). People starve to death every day.
11. After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8). People die every day.
12. Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6);
13. The nations of the earth will help the Jews, materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12;
14. The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23);
15. All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12);
16. The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15)
17. Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12);
18. Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13);
19. The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been wrong, that the Jews have been right, and that the sins of the Gentile nations, their persecutions and the murders they committed, have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53)
But the changes that Christianity claims were made by Jesus are not perceivable at all. They must be accepted on faith, and faith alone. How can one know that Jesus died for their sins, except by faith? How can one know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, except by the faith in the historical truth of the Christian's New Testament? There is no birth certificate. The changes made by the Messiah according to Judaism are very provable, but the changes made by the Messiah, Jesus, according to Christianity can only be taken on faith.
Even Christians recognize that none of the changes made by the Messiah according to Judaism as read in the Bible have not happened yet. This is why Christianity invented the idea of a Second Coming. The real Messiah has no need to come a second time to do those things he must do the first time around in order to actually be the Messiah.
Christians also believe that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, that one who does not have such a blood sacrifice will die in their sins, and go to hell, except for the sacrifice of Jesus.
This, too, is UnBiblical.
Furthermore, read the Book of Jonah. In Jonah, the People of Ninevah do three things in order to be forgiven by God. They fast, they pray for forgiveness, and they stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God forgives them! This is exactly what Jews do on Yom Kippur, they fast, they pray for forgiveness, and, hopefully, they stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God forgives us. And what book do they read on Yom Kippur afternoon? The Book of Jonah!
Please notice that Jonah tells us that God saw their WORKS, their deeds, how they turned from their evil ways, and God forgave them. It does not say that God saw their blood sacrifice, they never offered one. It does not say that God saw that they had the right faith, but rather it says that God saw their deeds.
Continued from ABOVE...
PART II...
The Christian idea of the messiah is that Jesus was the blood sacrifice that saves everyone from his or her sin. But who, EXACTLY died on that cross? If it was Jesus-the-god, then how can God die? If it was only Jesus-the-human, then all Christians have in the death of Jesus is a human sacrifice. And what, EXACTLY does God say about human sacrifice in the TaNaCH?
In Deuteronomy, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him!:
[Deuteronomy 12:30-31]
In Jeremiah, God tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind!:
[Jeremiah 19:4-6]
We see the same thing in Psalm 106 and in Ezekiel 16:
Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. [Psalm 106:37-38]
Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter? [Ezekiel 16:20]
And yet they are to then turn around and believe that God changed His mind and required human sacrifice, and then it was the sacrifice of His own human son that God wanted? After telling the Jews to stay away from pagan practices and pagan beliefs, God then changes His mind and says, "Okay, now go ahead and believe in a human sacrifice, just as these very pagans believe?" Everyone is a son or a daughter. God tells us that any human sacrifice is an abomination, something He hates, and something so horrible, that it would never even come into His mind to demand it of us. And human sacrifice was practiced by the pagans.
You must understand that the Christian definition to the term, Messiah, is pagan. How do all Christians, define the term messiah? They define it exactly as the pagans understood their dying/saving gods and heroes. The ancient world is filled with examples. Mithra, Adonis, Dionysis, Attis, Ra, and many others were born in the Winter, died in the Spring, and came back to life.
Along with this, they believed that their followers would not die, but have immortal life, since the death of the hero/god acted as their sacrifice for their sins. The pagan world was filled with gods who were the product of a human mother and a god for the father. Even Hercules had Zeus for a father, and a human mother.
When the earliest Christians would come into the synagogues and missionize, they would get kicked out. They were not allowed to stay and preach, they were rejected, because their message was pagan, was recognized as such by the Jews, and they were removed and separated from the Jewish people as a result!!!!
So how have the Jews, who invented the term, always defined the term Messiah?
1. The Messiah is born of two human parents, as we said.But Jesus, according to Christian theology, was born of a union between a Human woman and God, rather than two HUMAN parents, as was Hercules, and Dionysis, as well as many other pagan gods.
2. The Messiah can trace his lineage through his human biological father, back to King David (Isaiah 11:1,10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:21-28; Jeremiah 30:7-10; 33:14-16; and Hosea 3:4-5). But Jesus's lineage cannot go through his human father, according to Christian theology, as Jesus's father was not Joseph the husband of Mary. According to Christian theology, Jesus's father was God.
3. The Messiah traces his lineage only through King Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-17; I Chronicles 22:9-10). But according to Luke 3:31, Jesus was a descendant of Nathan, another son of King David, and not a descendant of King David through King Solomon.
4. The Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to both Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.
According to the Jewish definition of the term, the Real Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove because these changes take place in the real world. It is for this task that the real messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah -- one who is anointed. These changes, that one will be able to see and perceive in the real world, include:
1. The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6), which is contradicted by Jesus in Matthew 10:34-37.
2. The Messiah re-establishes the Davidic dynasty through the messiah's own children (Daniel 7:13-14). But Jesus had no children.
3. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, between all peoples, and between all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above.)
4. The Messiah brings about the universal world-wide conversion of all peoples to Judaism, or at least to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
5. The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
6. The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of God is God (Isaiah 11:9). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
7. The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9). It isn't.
8. The Messiah gathers to Israel, all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24). Many of the ten lost tribes remain lost.
9. The Messiah rebuilds The Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28). It hasn't been rebuilt.
10. There will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30). People starve to death every day.
11. After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8). People die every day.
12. Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6);
13. The nations of the earth will help the Jews, materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12;
14. The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23);
15. All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12);
16. The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15)
17. Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12);
18. Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13);
19. The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been wrong, that the Jews have been right, and that the sins of the Gentile nations, their persecutions and the murders they committed, have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53)
But the changes that Christianity claims were made by Jesus are not perceivable at all. They must be accepted on faith, and faith alone. How can one know that Jesus died for their sins, except by faith? How can one know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, except by the faith in the historical truth of the Christian's New Testament? There is no birth certificate. The changes made by the Messiah according to Judaism are very provable, but the changes made by the Messiah, Jesus, according to Christianity can only be taken on faith.
Even Christians recognize that none of the changes made by the Messiah according to Judaism as read in the Bible have not happened yet. This is why Christianity invented the idea of a Second Coming. The real Messiah has no need to come a second time to do those things he must do the first time around in order to actually be the Messiah.
Christians also believe that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, that one who does not have such a blood sacrifice will die in their sins, and go to hell, except for the sacrifice of Jesus.
This, too, is UnBiblical.
Furthermore, read the Book of Jonah. In Jonah, the People of Ninevah do three things in order to be forgiven by God. They fast, they pray for forgiveness, and they stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God forgives them! This is exactly what Jews do on Yom Kippur, they fast, they pray for forgiveness, and, hopefully, they stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God forgives us. And what book do they read on Yom Kippur afternoon? The Book of Jonah!
Please notice that Jonah tells us that God saw their WORKS, their deeds, how they turned from their evil ways, and God forgave them. It does not say that God saw their blood sacrifice, they never offered one. It does not say that God saw that they had the right faith, but rather it says that God saw their deeds.
TunerAddict
Starter
You aren't getting the point.
Can he make something he can't break?
If he can't make something unbreakable, he isn't omnipotent.
If he can make something unbreakable, he isn't omnipotent.
Its a paradox.
Think about it.
Can he make something he can't break. If he can make something unbreakable even to him, then he isn't omnipotent because he doesn't have the power to break it. If he cannot make an unbreakable rock then he isn't omnipotent because he lacks the power to create an unbreakable rock.
See why I'm saying omnipotence is a paradox?
Knicks4lyfe
Starter
Here is the difference between you and I. I am not trying to be as smart, or smarter than you. That is your goal. Makes you feel bigger than people I guess. Pride comes before the fall.
I rely on God's word for wisdom. Which is why no matter what you say, or think, you will lose, because neither one of us is nearly as smart as him. Difference is, only one of us realizes this.
To compare Jesus willingly providing his unjustly slain perfect human life, for the ransom to cover Adam enslaving his unborn kids to sin and death to the human sacrifice that was going on in the name of other Gods in Jeremiah, shows you really lack understanding of the difference of the two. I'll leave that there and move on.
19 In time Jehovah added another covenant that further clarified how he would accomplish his purpose, to our eternal blessing. We have seen that the Abrahamic covenant pointed forward to kingship among the literal seed of Abraham. (Genesis 17:6) The Law covenant also anticipated kings among God’s people, for Moses told Israel: "When you eventually come into the [Promised Land] and you have said, ‘Let me set a king over myself like all the nations who are round about me’; you should without fail set over yourself a king whom Jehovah your God will choose. . . . You will not be allowed to put over yourself a foreigner." (Deuteronomy 17:14, 15) How would God arrange for such kingship, and how would it bear on the Abrahamic covenant?
20 Though Israel’s first king was Saul of the tribe of Benjamin, he was followed by the courageous and loyal David of Judah. (1 Samuel 8:5; 9:1, 2; 10:1; 16:1, 13) Well into David’s reign, Jehovah chose to make a covenant with David. First He said: "I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite." (2 Samuel 7:12, 13) As there indicated, David’s son Solomon became the next king, and he was used to construct a house, or temple, for God in Jerusalem. Yet, there was more.
So this was the only direct promise concerning Solomon directly. This does not promise that Jesus would be born in Solomon's lineage, but it promises that the temple would be built by Solomon, which is what happened.
NEXT.
21 Jehovah went on to make this covenant with David: "Your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite." (2 Samuel 7:16) Plainly, God was thus establishing a kingly dynasty for Israel in David’s family. It was not to be just a constant succession of Davidic kings. Eventually, someone in David’s line would come to rule "to time indefinite, and his throne [would be] as the sun in front of [God]."—Psalm 89:20, 29, 34-36; Isaiah 55:3, 4.
This someone is Jesus, born in David's lineage through the recognition of Joseph as his earthly father, whether you accept this or not. Jesus did, why should you not?
A smarter than everyone else guy like yourself should have done just a tad bit more research on this.
3:17—Why
Certain texts indicate that Jeconiah (King Jehoiachin) was the fleshly father of Shealtiel. (1 Chronicles 3:16-18; Matthew 1:12) But the Gospel writer Luke called Shealtiel the "son of Neri." (Luke 3:27) Neri apparently gave his daughter to Shealtiel as a wife. Since the Hebrews commonly referred to a son-in-law as a son, especially in genealogical listings, Luke could properly call Shealtiel the son of Neri. Similarly, Luke referred to Joseph as the son of Heli, who was actually the father of Joseph’s wife, Mary.—Luke 3:23.
Whom does "Elijah the prophet" represent? It is foretold that "Elijah" would do a restoration work, that of preparing the hearts of people. In the first century C.E., Jesus Christ identified John the Baptizer as "Elijah." (Matthew 11:12-14; Mark 9:11-13) His modern-day counterpart is sent "before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah." Elijah today is none other than "the faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45) This class of anointed Christians has diligently been doing the work of spiritual restoration.
So, too, enmity was foretold to come because Jehovah’s perfect standards would allow for no condoning of the rebellious course of Satan’s "seed." God’s disapproval of such ones and his blessing of those holding to a righteous course would have a divisive effect (Joh 15:18-21; Jas 4:4), even as in the case of Cain and Abel.—Ge 4:2-8; Heb 11:4; 1Jo 3:12; Jude 10, 11;
Dan:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man(< Jesus in heavenly glory) happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days(< Ancient of days being Jesus' heavenly Father and God, Jehovah) he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him(him being Jesus) there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
Im lost at where Jesus has children there though. Please show.
This promise has already started. There are 7 million people on earth from all nations who have peace and love amongst themselves due to submitting to Christ Jesus rule as Jehovah's King. But the greater fulfillment of this promise will be after the destruction of Satans system of things, and the reign of Peace during the 1000 year reign of Christ. And after the devil is let loose again to test perfect mankind one last time, then peace and love shall reign eternally. Just as the bible says it will.
Again, this has already started. With Christ's early disciples, down to our very day with those stupid quacks called Jehovah's witnesses who live for putting Jehovah's laws in their hearts, like big dummies. And again, it will be totally fulfilled after Satan is destroyed some time after the 1k reign of Christ, and the heavens and the earth will only be filled with, yea, you guessed it, JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.
This is refering to Christ's millenial reign. These are the peaceful conditions the world will be in. Animals and humans both at peace, and all humanity will have knowledge of Jehovah, and be obedient to him. Even in our very day, this is taking place. Hardly a place on earth you can go and not find Jehovah's witneses spreading the truth about God and his Kingdom. And only Christ's kingdom can bring peace to earth. Mankind has has thousands of years to try and prove they could. Has not happened nor will it ever.
But Jesus standing up as God's King in heaven in these last days has helped millions from every nation become peaceful persons for the love of God, and fellow man already. Jehovah is fulfilling prophesy in this very day. This is why Jehovah's witnesses stand clear of the world, because only God's kingdom will bring true peace, and this is evident by the peaceful and loving way Jehovah's people live as a whole today.
And the bible does not say whether humans will be soley vegetarians or not. But it's quite possible since Adam was able to eat from every tree desirable to one's eye for food in abundance. But still, at best it is speculation at best.
So Israel must have taken on another meaning. Galatians 6:15, 16 get into it. In a nutshell, Israel is no longer fleshly, but spiritual. So the way it was in ancient Isreal was only a foreshadowing. If you just have to have an explanation on this, I will oblige in a seperate post.
Glad you chose to use Jonah's example to the ninevites. Jesus once compared Jonah's experience in the belly of the whale 3 days to his dying 3 days and being ressurected to bring the many into righteousness. Which is turn was even greater than what Jonah did when he delivered Jehovah's message to them, and they repented out of faith and were spared. Those who Jehovah favors are those who have faith that Christ was sent by him, died for our sins, and live their lives for God's righteousness, and not to their own harmful selfishness. That requires deed and faith, which is what you clearly miss in your rendering of Jonah's account.
So when you try and dismantle the bible, you just run into a brick wall, because you have very limited knowledge of what it really means. And that's sad because you do not lack the intellectual capacity, you lack the heart condition to humble yourself to learn simple live saving truths.
I rely on God's word for wisdom. Which is why no matter what you say, or think, you will lose, because neither one of us is nearly as smart as him. Difference is, only one of us realizes this.
To compare Jesus willingly providing his unjustly slain perfect human life, for the ransom to cover Adam enslaving his unborn kids to sin and death to the human sacrifice that was going on in the name of other Gods in Jeremiah, shows you really lack understanding of the difference of the two. I'll leave that there and move on.
Davidic Kingdom Covenant
19 In time Jehovah added another covenant that further clarified how he would accomplish his purpose, to our eternal blessing. We have seen that the Abrahamic covenant pointed forward to kingship among the literal seed of Abraham. (Genesis 17:6) The Law covenant also anticipated kings among God’s people, for Moses told Israel: "When you eventually come into the [Promised Land] and you have said, ‘Let me set a king over myself like all the nations who are round about me’; you should without fail set over yourself a king whom Jehovah your God will choose. . . . You will not be allowed to put over yourself a foreigner." (Deuteronomy 17:14, 15) How would God arrange for such kingship, and how would it bear on the Abrahamic covenant?
20 Though Israel’s first king was Saul of the tribe of Benjamin, he was followed by the courageous and loyal David of Judah. (1 Samuel 8:5; 9:1, 2; 10:1; 16:1, 13) Well into David’s reign, Jehovah chose to make a covenant with David. First He said: "I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite." (2 Samuel 7:12, 13) As there indicated, David’s son Solomon became the next king, and he was used to construct a house, or temple, for God in Jerusalem. Yet, there was more.
So this was the only direct promise concerning Solomon directly. This does not promise that Jesus would be born in Solomon's lineage, but it promises that the temple would be built by Solomon, which is what happened.
NEXT.
21 Jehovah went on to make this covenant with David: "Your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite." (2 Samuel 7:16) Plainly, God was thus establishing a kingly dynasty for Israel in David’s family. It was not to be just a constant succession of Davidic kings. Eventually, someone in David’s line would come to rule "to time indefinite, and his throne [would be] as the sun in front of [God]."—Psalm 89:20, 29, 34-36; Isaiah 55:3, 4.
This someone is Jesus, born in David's lineage through the recognition of Joseph as his earthly father, whether you accept this or not. Jesus did, why should you not?
A smarter than everyone else guy like yourself should have done just a tad bit more research on this.
3:17—Why
does Luke 3:27 refer to Jeconiah’s son Shealtiel as the son of Neri? Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel. However, Neri apparently gave his daughter to Shealtiel as a wife. Luke referred to Neri’s son-in-law as Neri’s son just as he did in the case of Joseph, calling him the son of Mary’s father, Heli.—Luke 3:23.
3:17-19—How
were Zerubbabel, Pedaiah, and Shealtiel related? Zerubbabel was a son of Pedaiah, who was a brother of Shealtiel. Yet, the Bible at times calls Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel. (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27) This could be because Pedaiah died and Shealtiel raised Zerubbabel. Or perhaps since Shealtiel died without having a child, Pedaiah performed brother-in-law marriage, and Zerubbabel was the firstborn of that union.—Deuteronomy 25:5-10.
Certain texts indicate that Jeconiah (King Jehoiachin) was the fleshly father of Shealtiel. (1 Chronicles 3:16-18; Matthew 1:12) But the Gospel writer Luke called Shealtiel the "son of Neri." (Luke 3:27) Neri apparently gave his daughter to Shealtiel as a wife. Since the Hebrews commonly referred to a son-in-law as a son, especially in genealogical listings, Luke could properly call Shealtiel the son of Neri. Similarly, Luke referred to Joseph as the son of Heli, who was actually the father of Joseph’s wife, Mary.—Luke 3:23.
One who tries to be as deep as you like to be, you let a lot go over your head.
Whom does "Elijah the prophet" represent? It is foretold that "Elijah" would do a restoration work, that of preparing the hearts of people. In the first century C.E., Jesus Christ identified John the Baptizer as "Elijah." (Matthew 11:12-14; Mark 9:11-13) His modern-day counterpart is sent "before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah." Elijah today is none other than "the faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45) This class of anointed Christians has diligently been doing the work of spiritual restoration.
Why
the ‘God of peace’ fights. Jehovah’s statement in Eden that he would put enmity between the seed of his Adversary and the seed of "the woman" did not change Him from being the ‘God of peace.’ (Ge 3:15; Ro 16:20; 1Co 14:33) The situation then was the same as in the days of the earthly life of his Son, Jesus Christ, who, after referring to his union with his heavenly Father, said: "Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword." (Mt 10:32-40) Jesus’ ministry brought divisions, even within families (Lu 12:51-53), but it was because of his adherence to, and proclamation of, God’s righteous standards and truth. Division resulted because many individuals hardened their hearts against these truths while others accepted them. (Joh 8:40, 44-47; 15:22-25; 17:14) This was unavoidable if the divine principles were to be upheld; but the blame lay with the rejecters of what was right.
So, too, enmity was foretold to come because Jehovah’s perfect standards would allow for no condoning of the rebellious course of Satan’s "seed." God’s disapproval of such ones and his blessing of those holding to a righteous course would have a divisive effect (Joh 15:18-21; Jas 4:4), even as in the case of Cain and Abel.—Ge 4:2-8; Heb 11:4; 1Jo 3:12; Jude 10, 11;
Dan:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man(< Jesus in heavenly glory) happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days(< Ancient of days being Jesus' heavenly Father and God, Jehovah) he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him(him being Jesus) there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
Im lost at where Jesus has children there though. Please show.
This promise has already started. There are 7 million people on earth from all nations who have peace and love amongst themselves due to submitting to Christ Jesus rule as Jehovah's King. But the greater fulfillment of this promise will be after the destruction of Satans system of things, and the reign of Peace during the 1000 year reign of Christ. And after the devil is let loose again to test perfect mankind one last time, then peace and love shall reign eternally. Just as the bible says it will.
Again, this has already started. With Christ's early disciples, down to our very day with those stupid quacks called Jehovah's witnesses who live for putting Jehovah's laws in their hearts, like big dummies. And again, it will be totally fulfilled after Satan is destroyed some time after the 1k reign of Christ, and the heavens and the earth will only be filled with, yea, you guessed it, JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.
Isaiah 11:9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.
This is refering to Christ's millenial reign. These are the peaceful conditions the world will be in. Animals and humans both at peace, and all humanity will have knowledge of Jehovah, and be obedient to him. Even in our very day, this is taking place. Hardly a place on earth you can go and not find Jehovah's witneses spreading the truth about God and his Kingdom. And only Christ's kingdom can bring peace to earth. Mankind has has thousands of years to try and prove they could. Has not happened nor will it ever.
But Jesus standing up as God's King in heaven in these last days has helped millions from every nation become peaceful persons for the love of God, and fellow man already. Jehovah is fulfilling prophesy in this very day. This is why Jehovah's witnesses stand clear of the world, because only God's kingdom will bring true peace, and this is evident by the peaceful and loving way Jehovah's people live as a whole today.
As shown in the above reply, this is concerning the millenial reign of peace. Not our current system of things. Lions eating Straw like the Bull certainly promotes peaceful conditions. If even the animals will be at peace with eachother, what will mankind be like in such bliss?
And the bible does not say whether humans will be soley vegetarians or not. But it's quite possible since Adam was able to eat from every tree desirable to one's eye for food in abundance. But still, at best it is speculation at best.
Most of what you posted from 8 on either have future fulfillment, or have happened in some way already. I have grown weary of repeating myself, so I will stop here explaining the Israel. All of what you said about Israel is true. The twelve tribes are done for, no temple, nada. This proves that God is not backing them any longer, because these things would surely not be if he were.
So Israel must have taken on another meaning. Galatians 6:15, 16 get into it. In a nutshell, Israel is no longer fleshly, but spiritual. So the way it was in ancient Isreal was only a foreshadowing. If you just have to have an explanation on this, I will oblige in a seperate post.
While many of the promises of the Messiah will be fulfilled when the Kingdom alone rules, some have already taken place. People are just not paying attention. If the Messiah died for people to live, then people would need time to be educated on what the need was certainly not? Remember, the gentiles needed to learn what the Jews had known already. Therefore, it would require more time than Jesus short years on earth to do so. A people had to be taken up for his name and to do his fathers will as he did. And the good news of the Kingdom had to be preached to the ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH, NOT JUST THE KNOWN EARTH OF BIBLICAL TIMES. This takes time.
Glad you chose to use Jonah's example to the ninevites. Jesus once compared Jonah's experience in the belly of the whale 3 days to his dying 3 days and being ressurected to bring the many into righteousness. Which is turn was even greater than what Jonah did when he delivered Jehovah's message to them, and they repented out of faith and were spared. Those who Jehovah favors are those who have faith that Christ was sent by him, died for our sins, and live their lives for God's righteousness, and not to their own harmful selfishness. That requires deed and faith, which is what you clearly miss in your rendering of Jonah's account.
So when you try and dismantle the bible, you just run into a brick wall, because you have very limited knowledge of what it really means. And that's sad because you do not lack the intellectual capacity, you lack the heart condition to humble yourself to learn simple live saving truths.
Knicks4lyfe
Starter
I see what you're saying, but no offense, that is still human philosophy. And the problem with that is, as anything with mankind it has severe limitations.
Meanwhile, Jehovah's word continues to happen just as he wills it.
KnicksFan4Realz
Benchwarmer
So to is religion a great deal a philosophy to a lessor much more mediocre extent...especially if it was "inspired to GOD" rather than actually dictated by GOD himself. I hope you understand Judaism now BTW.
TunerAddict
Starter
I guess I don't see your side. I'm confused. Its not really philosophy when its by definition, and that definition is contradicted by logic.
Maybe they should change the definition or reinterpret this omnipotence thing.
God has near omnipotence.
Knicks4lyfe
Starter
If a person uses philosphy with the bible, they are done for. It explains itself in detail. Philosphy is how the trinity belief became so ramped in Christianity. Hell fire, things like that.
I have long understood judaism. And that is how come I can look at the state of Judaism today and see a people lost for answers. I hope you understand better the scriptures you misinterpet.
Knicks4lyfe
Starter
Omnipotence
1. The state of being omnipotent; almighty power; hence, one who is omnipotent; the Deity.
2. Unlimited power of a particular kind; as, love's omnipotence. Denham.
If something is almighty and unlimited in power, it cannot rightly have limits then.
This is the very description of Jehovah. Almighty and Limitless in power. I don't really see how your breakable/unbreakable analogy applied to disprove his Omnipotence. That is why I said it is a philosophy.
KnicksFan4Realz
Benchwarmer
No, you clearly do not comprehend what you are saying. I even went through the trouble of re-reading their scriptures and having a very very close Jewish associate of mine explain it to me much better so I could be better to explain it to you here. If you understood at all anything in Judaism..after reading their prophecies correctly you'd understand why them claiming Jesus as NOT BEING divine..is not only scripturally correct from their 5 books of Moses...in which their can be NO JESUS in the first place. But why they reject Jesus as the Messiah. I even explained what Messiah means in Hebrew..you know the language Jesus spoke and the faith he was BY THE WAY..Jewish.
Jews are the source material for all things Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. You can't misinterpret their prophecies to fit Christian dogma...as you and every other Christian sect have done over the past few millennia.
I explained their beliefs.. I explained WHY...and HOW...even pointed out the very scriptures which clearly state this from a biblical perspective, and even what the term Messiah actually means...and why the reject Jesus as divine.
But you can't except this as even a person of faith, ironically enough from other folks of faith.
You quite simply do not posses the intelligence necessary to comprehend these things, it's no clue as to why you follow not only a religion..but a cult as well. And yes all religions are cults so don't feel bad.
For everyone to know
First off i said in a post after the one you talked about when I said Iraq and Russia have been allies, I corrected myself and said Iran which was what I meant, sorry if you got mislead. Historical events show that Iran and Russia have had a Military Alliance and as of right now they are supplying weapons to them and Iran has Nuclear Facilities to create a Nuclear weapon, it's just a matter of time.
My friend the Bible speaks specifically about the Middle East for most prophetic events occurred there and will still occur there, that is why Israel and especially Jerusalem is so important. Isn't it ironic how the Bible focuses on Israel, and yet most Jews and Muslims don't believe in the Bible but still see Jerusalem as the Holy City with the Dome of the Rock as the Center mount? Jerusalem is important to Christianity, Jews, and Muslims as the most important city in the world, why is this? Because there is more to this city than what everyone thinks. Events will occur here that will change the world. A war will occur on Israel, you can look at from a Geopolitical point of view seeing Hamaas, Iran, etc talking about wiping Israel off the map and eventually a world without the United States as said from the President of Iran himself. In the Bible this war is predicted as The Battle of Gog and Magog.
Let's first talk about the vulnerability of the West, i will discuss Gog and Magog after.....In 1998 the U.S Congress from both the Democrats and Republicans put together a commission and analyzed the vulnerability of the United States to ballistic missile attacks from third world countries such as Iran. This commission, which received Intel from American Intelligence forces, concluded that the Iranians could build a inter-continental range missile that could strike the Eastern coast of the United States within 5 years of taking the decision in doing so. And it wouldn't be clear to American Intel that the Iranian's have taken that decision, so you see it is obviously possible for an event such as the one I discussed to easily occur at our own homes. To Mahmud Ahmadinejad, the President of Iran, Israel is the "Little Satan" and the United States is the "Great Satan." So you now understand that Iran and the especially the leader of Iran, has an extreme hatred towards our country, and letting him build a Nuclear Weapon would be catastrophic and the creation of such a weapon is progressing every passing day. Russia has also help fund to create Nuclear facilities, if you were interested in knowing.
Onto Gog and Magog....as of right now Russia has been arming coutries like Syria, Iran, and other Arab nations and giving them Military supplies such as weapons, ammunition, tanks, airplanes, etc for some time. Ofcourse being that Israel has one of the strongest armies in the World, the Arab countries that want to annihilate it need to be as advanced in military technology, and Russia is the solution. Proof that this event is in the Bible comes from Ezekial 38:1-6 "And the Word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the Land of Magog, The Prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. And prophecy against him and say,'Thus says the Lord God, "Behold I am against you, o Gog, Prince of Rosh, Mesech and Tubal." Later it mentions, Persia, Ethiopia(Cush) all of them with shield and helmet; Gomer with all it's troops; Beth-Togarmah from the remote parts of the North with all it's troops many peoples with you. And you will come up against my people Israel like a cloud to cover the land.
Now a Gog is not a personal name it is a title like a Pharoah or Czar. Now he is the leader over a territory called Magog. The Magogites, the people of Magog, are the people who the Greeks called Sythians. These are the people croup who settled North of the Black and the Caspian Sea in what we now call Russia and the former Soviet Republics. So what we are talking about with Gog is a Russian Dictator.
What I bolded in the Bible text is the areas to attack Israel during this great war. After what I discussed Russia=Magog and Beth-Togarmah, Persia=Modern day Iran, Cush= the area of Sudan and parts of Egypt, Put= also parts of Egypt and all of Tunisia,Libya, and Algeria, Gomer=Turkey and Syria. All of these countries wll participate in the battle of Gog and Magog which will attempt to destroy Israel. The Bible states that these events will occur in the "Last Days."
This proof is from a site by people called the Kingdom Engineers, it states..........But first thing, let me note that the predictions found in Ezekiel chapters 36 & 37 have already come true. These are the famous chapters that foretell:
Now I hope after reading all of this information you see that the Bible is a book of foreknowing events that are occuring presently in the world today when it was written thousands of years ago. And so you know Israel will be attacked by all of these countries but it will never be destroyed. This is becuase in the Bible it is protected by God. If you would like to know more about these prohpecies, let me know, I hope you read all of this with an open mind so you can observe carfeully what the Bible says and not overlook or mis-interpret it which has been done continuous times.
First off i said in a post after the one you talked about when I said Iraq and Russia have been allies, I corrected myself and said Iran which was what I meant, sorry if you got mislead. Historical events show that Iran and Russia have had a Military Alliance and as of right now they are supplying weapons to them and Iran has Nuclear Facilities to create a Nuclear weapon, it's just a matter of time.
My friend the Bible speaks specifically about the Middle East for most prophetic events occurred there and will still occur there, that is why Israel and especially Jerusalem is so important. Isn't it ironic how the Bible focuses on Israel, and yet most Jews and Muslims don't believe in the Bible but still see Jerusalem as the Holy City with the Dome of the Rock as the Center mount? Jerusalem is important to Christianity, Jews, and Muslims as the most important city in the world, why is this? Because there is more to this city than what everyone thinks. Events will occur here that will change the world. A war will occur on Israel, you can look at from a Geopolitical point of view seeing Hamaas, Iran, etc talking about wiping Israel off the map and eventually a world without the United States as said from the President of Iran himself. In the Bible this war is predicted as The Battle of Gog and Magog.
Let's first talk about the vulnerability of the West, i will discuss Gog and Magog after.....In 1998 the U.S Congress from both the Democrats and Republicans put together a commission and analyzed the vulnerability of the United States to ballistic missile attacks from third world countries such as Iran. This commission, which received Intel from American Intelligence forces, concluded that the Iranians could build a inter-continental range missile that could strike the Eastern coast of the United States within 5 years of taking the decision in doing so. And it wouldn't be clear to American Intel that the Iranian's have taken that decision, so you see it is obviously possible for an event such as the one I discussed to easily occur at our own homes. To Mahmud Ahmadinejad, the President of Iran, Israel is the "Little Satan" and the United States is the "Great Satan." So you now understand that Iran and the especially the leader of Iran, has an extreme hatred towards our country, and letting him build a Nuclear Weapon would be catastrophic and the creation of such a weapon is progressing every passing day. Russia has also help fund to create Nuclear facilities, if you were interested in knowing.
Onto Gog and Magog....as of right now Russia has been arming coutries like Syria, Iran, and other Arab nations and giving them Military supplies such as weapons, ammunition, tanks, airplanes, etc for some time. Ofcourse being that Israel has one of the strongest armies in the World, the Arab countries that want to annihilate it need to be as advanced in military technology, and Russia is the solution. Proof that this event is in the Bible comes from Ezekial 38:1-6 "And the Word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the Land of Magog, The Prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. And prophecy against him and say,'Thus says the Lord God, "Behold I am against you, o Gog, Prince of Rosh, Mesech and Tubal." Later it mentions, Persia, Ethiopia(Cush) all of them with shield and helmet; Gomer with all it's troops; Beth-Togarmah from the remote parts of the North with all it's troops many peoples with you. And you will come up against my people Israel like a cloud to cover the land.
Now a Gog is not a personal name it is a title like a Pharoah or Czar. Now he is the leader over a territory called Magog. The Magogites, the people of Magog, are the people who the Greeks called Sythians. These are the people croup who settled North of the Black and the Caspian Sea in what we now call Russia and the former Soviet Republics. So what we are talking about with Gog is a Russian Dictator.
What I bolded in the Bible text is the areas to attack Israel during this great war. After what I discussed Russia=Magog and Beth-Togarmah, Persia=Modern day Iran, Cush= the area of Sudan and parts of Egypt, Put= also parts of Egypt and all of Tunisia,Libya, and Algeria, Gomer=Turkey and Syria. All of these countries wll participate in the battle of Gog and Magog which will attempt to destroy Israel. The Bible states that these events will occur in the "Last Days."
This proof is from a site by people called the Kingdom Engineers, it states..........But first thing, let me note that the predictions found in Ezekiel chapters 36 & 37 have already come true. These are the famous chapters that foretell:
- The rebirth of the State of Israel in the end times (both chapters) 1948-AD!
- The return of the Jews to the Holy Land after centuries in exile (36:10-11, 36:24, 36:37-38, 37:12, 37:21) Still currently in progress!
- The rebuilding of the ancient ruins in Israel (36:36) Still currently in progress!
- The re-blossoming of desolate, desert lands to produce abundant food, fruit and foliage (36:8-9 and 36:30-35) Still currently in progress!
- The creation of an ?exceedingly great army? (37:11) Already happened!
Now I hope after reading all of this information you see that the Bible is a book of foreknowing events that are occuring presently in the world today when it was written thousands of years ago. And so you know Israel will be attacked by all of these countries but it will never be destroyed. This is becuase in the Bible it is protected by God. If you would like to know more about these prohpecies, let me know, I hope you read all of this with an open mind so you can observe carfeully what the Bible says and not overlook or mis-interpret it which has been done continuous times.
Knicks4lyfe
Starter
First of all, Jesus is not divine, or God. This is the problem, people think Jesus is God. This is one of the reasons that Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah, because Christendom has perpetuated the lie of him being God, while the Messiah is said to be sent from God
The state of the Jews clearly shows they have lost divine favor. They are a truly lost people. They are still awaiting the Messiah that has already appeared. And some have even stopped looking.
The Messiah in the hebrew scriptures is born in the line of David. Problem with that now is, the records were destroyed when the temple was. Who today is going to stand up to be their Messiah that can prove they were born in the davidic line with no proof of lineage? Also in daniel, the very chronology of the Messiah's Arrival and even death was foretold.(Daniel 9:24-27) The Jews were expecting his arrival because of this chronology during the first century.
They simply missed the boat, and this below anwers why.
WHY THE JEWISH NATION REJECTED JESUS
But why did not the Jewish nation accept Jesus when he came centuries ago? They saw him as he was. They had no false picture of him as Jews today have. Why did they reject him as Messiah? At that time the Jews were restive under Roman domination, were smarting under the Roman yoke. They anticipated a Messiah that would come as a great military figure to smash Roman power and break that yoke from off Jewish necks. Jesus did not measure up to these expectations, these hopes. They were disappointed in him and his talk of submissiveness under Rome displeased them. He exposed the hypocrisy of Jewish religious leaders, which first nettled them and finally enraged them to the point of demanding his death. As an unresisting lamb he was led to the slaughter.
Many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures foretold Messiah’s coming. For instance, this Messianic promise: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called ‘Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.’ Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore." And this one: "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."—Isa. 9:6, 7; Dan. 7:13, 14, RS.
In fulfillment of these prophecies the Jews expected a Messiah who would set up a victorious earthly kingdom that would remain forever. But they overlooked this vital point: Messiah was foretold to come twice, once as a sacrifice to die for obedient men, and then as a reigning king over an everlasting government. In their anxiousness to be delivered from Rome and be politically exalted immediately they overlooked the necessity of the first presence and had eyes only for the glorious second presence. They looked for Messiah to come in the clouds of heaven and set up an everlasting earthly government. Instead he came riding on the foal of an ass recommending submission to the Roman yoke!
How unattractive to those Jews! Of him they could well say: "He had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him," and they could add: "He was despised, and we esteemed him not." These Jewish sentiments for Messiah at his first coming were foretold in the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah, and this chapter goes on to show that Messiah would be led like a lamb to the slaughter "when he makes himself an offering for sin" and when he shall "make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities." Only after this first coming and ignominious death as a sin-offering would he come again with everlasting kingdom power, as Jehovah said: "Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."—RS.
So at his first coming Jesus fulfilled Zechariah 9:9, RS: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on an ass, on a colt the foal of an ass." And he fulfilled Isaiah chapter 53 about dying a sacrificial death, despised and hated and classed with sinful transgressors.
It is at his second presence that he comes in clouds or in invisible heavenly kingship, and it is then that he is given an everlasting dominion from Jehovah that will administer peace and righteousness to all obedient mankind. Then will Isaiah 9:6, 7 and Daniel 7:13, 14 be fulfilled, at the second presence and not at the first as the Jews nineteen centuries ago erroneously expected. If he had set up his everlasting kingship then, when would the prophecies of Isaiah chapter 53 and Zechariah 9:9 have fulfillment? The Jews back there were looking for the wrong signs, for the wrong presence of Messiah, so they failed to recognize Jesus as Messiah. Nevertheless, thousands of individual Jews did recognize him, accept him, and become the first Christians. Today Jews and others can see the signs Jesus foretold for his second presence, for that time is here.
So again, you have been misinformed.
Last edited:
wow, read what I wrote and look at the present day world, its obvious that prophecies are being full-filled. I bolded that statement by you because I all ready answered it in the post I wrote about the Battle of Gog and Magog. The land of Persia is in Ezekiel chapter 38 as one of the nations to attack Israel, Persia is now modern day Iran! How can I be more specific than that????
Did you read my post? I said name 1 Specific prediction that says the United States, not Israel, is going to get attacked by Iran. There's nothing in the Bible that says that the United States is going to get attacked. You also failed to find a part of the Bible that says the West is vulnerable. You said that Iran hates the U.S., but you fail to mention that so does most of the other countries in the world. The U.S. has tons of money, technology, allies, and protection. Look up Defense Support Program. Wikipedia does a good job of explaining it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Support_Program
Those 4 reasons are why Iran and most other countries that hate the U.S. won't attack the U.S.
The Bible, based on what you wrote, predicts that Iran is going to attack Israel, not the United States. You also said that Magog is Russia. Correction, Magog is western Russia. The map of the Bible doesn't show any part of eastern Russia.
1)Your list of predictions are highly flawed. I read the Ezekiel chapter on my own, and it also predicts that the great army will be riding on horses. Do people still use horses for war? No
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
2) Your prediction also says that the countries will cover Israel as a cloud over the land. That's claiming that all the middle eastern countries will send their armies inside Israel, to the point where they completely fill the land with troops. Have we seen this? No. You can exaggerate recent wars to make it seem like this, but that hasn't happened in reality. Israel even went into Egypt, to try and take the Suez Canal, in the Suez Canal crisis. That doesn't sound like a country that's getting swarmed to me.
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
3) The Bible also says that God will be angry. Is there proof that God is currently angry? No. You can make up that he's angry, but nobody sees him angry or knows for a fact that he's angry.
4) The Bible also says that God will send a fire on Western Russia(Magog)
Has God set Russia on fire yet? No.
Chapter 39
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
The predictions may be real(I don't think they are) but even if that's so, the predictions are highly flawed, as you can see from the above quotes.