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Thread: McCain-Palin

  1. #16
    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Pat, the surged worked while guys like Joe Biden thought there was no hope and that we already lost the war, and he did say that along with most demorats. Once again proven wrong.
    How can you tell? Because you saw it on FOX news? Or have you been there? How would you define "victory"? Is it a victory if the infrastructure and domestic security in Iraq is back to a pre-war level? Or does it mean that they finally find some weapons of mass destruction? Or -- even better -- is it already a victory that Saddam Hussein is dead? Well, then the US-Army could have gone home some time ago. And another one: does it mean that Al-Qaeda are no longer to be found in Iraq? This means that the military have a) to stay there for a very long time or b) never should have invaded Iraq in the first place. Or -- and this is the last one --is it a victory to establish a democratic government? Democracy is a great aim, but for whom? Is it just to force a Western concept onto a non-Western society? And for how long do you think a democratic surface will work if it isn't based on indigenous concepts? What the USA are about to witness is exactly what happened to Britain and France after the Second World War: losing a "colonial Empire". And just like we still have to live with the consequences of colonialism (e.g. Mugabe in Zimbabwe --> no African tradition of government), there will be short- and long-term aftermaths of the Middle East politics of the Bush administrations.

    Furthermore, victory is a very fluent concept and since Vietnam no war was ever won. They just end at some point in time and people are happy to forget about them.

  2. #17
    Veteran TunerAddict's Avatar
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    The surge is a no-brainer. Obviously putting more soldiers into a hostile area will make it more stable. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that. The real question is whethere Iraq is worth a single American life. OH wait, it isn't.

  3. #18
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pat
    How can you tell? Because you saw it on FOX news? Or have you been there? How would you define "victory"? Is it a victory if the infrastructure and domestic security in Iraq is back to a pre-war level? Or does it mean that they finally find some weapons of mass destruction? Or -- even better -- is it already a victory that Saddam Hussein is dead? Well, then the US-Army could have gone home some time ago. And another one: does it mean that Al-Qaeda are no longer to be found in Iraq? This means that the military have a) to stay there for a very long time or b) never should have invaded Iraq in the first place. Or -- and this is the last one --is it a victory to establish a democratic government? Democracy is a great aim, but for whom? Is it just to force a Western concept onto a non-Western society? And for how long do you think a democratic surface will work if it isn't based on indigenous concepts? What the USA are about to witness is exactly what happened to Britain and France after the Second World War: losing a "colonial Empire". And just like we still have to live with the consequences of colonialism (e.g. Mugabe in Zimbabwe --> no African tradition of government), there will be short- and long-term aftermaths of the Middle East politics of the Bush administrations.

    Furthermore, victory is a very fluent concept and since Vietnam no war was ever won. They just end at some point in time and people are happy to forget about them.
    First off Joe Biden did vote against the Surge and said that this war was lost just like most Democrats said at one time. Look it up.

    Ask any soldier and watch the news man, stop watching MSNBC and maybe you wouldn't get some false news that Bill O'reilly, whos not democrat or republican wrote a paper on. The fact is that the surge worked, I saw on TV were the former AL-Queda's stronghold use to be, i forget the name if you could find it that would help. But anyway we gave it back to the Iraqi goverment which is as of right now democratic with a police force being trained and increasing everday. And these men are trained by our soldiers so if your worried that the goverment won't last then your doubting the ability of our soliders, Pat. Was it worth it? Yes, because we got rid of a terrorist group that attacked us and wasn't going to stop for the hell of it. Could it have worked better? Of course, every victory could have worked out better, but if you win in the end, then you have nothing to say against it, because we are winning.
    I love how Democrats who have never even spoken to someone that has been to Iraq think that their opinion on the War is greater than any soldier or person that has visited the Middle East. John McCain has been there 8 times. Obama? oh wait, he canceled his visit to see the troops. Shows some good character. And talking about how Vietnam was the last war we won, you are giving us doubt from the start that we cn't win a war. Did anyone think we'd win WW1 and WW2? If people thought like you, Obama, and Biden, then no one would have helped back home in WW2 to building ships and weapons.
    Your party is divided. Even Hilary Clinton and Joe Biden said Barack Obama isn't experienced enough to be President, so I'd like to see you dodge that.

  4. #19
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    The surge is a no-brainer. Obviously putting more soldiers into a hostile area will make it more stable. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that. The real question is whethere Iraq is worth a single American life. OH wait, it isn't.
    If it's a no brainer why did Joe Biden vote against it? And then after said that we already lost?

  5. #20
    Veteran TunerAddict's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    If it's a no brainer why did Joe Biden vote against it? And then after said that we already lost?
    Its a philosophical decision. Its not worth the lives of those soldiers. And we have lost. Its quite apparent. You can't fight ideas and that is the main opponent in this. As much as you'd like to believe some magical land is going to arise out of war torn Iraq, it isn't.

    No reason for us to be there, no reason for our men and women to die.

  6. #21
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    Tuner, this guy, and his running mate, is sick. This Palin broad knows nothing of family values, and I will keep bringing it up. I'm not Obama, and I don't need to be "politically" correct. You give me a child, and she will understand to not take motherhood lightly, to not sleep around, carelessly and without condoms, and I'd teach her that life's difficulty is to be considered, before bringing a child into a cold cruel world. Oh, wait! She brought a down syndrome baby into the world, where he'll have all the opportunity in the world, I'm sure.

    I believe in real values, ones that require thought and contemplation. Values without intelligence are just impulsive repitition, for a narrow group's sake, rather than for the whole world's sake, and is actually a destructive force. To say, "the bible says 'do not kill, so I won't have an abortion.' is different than saying, 'I will not kill because it makes me evil, worthless and deprives another of his or her humanity and existence.'

  7. #22
    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    stop watching MSNBC
    I don't.

    I love how Democrats who have never even spoken to someone that has been to Iraq think that their opinion on the War is greater than any soldier or person that has visited the Middle East.
    I am not a Democrat. I am not even American.

    John McCain has been there 8 times.
    It's called campaigning.

    Did anyone think we'd win WW1 and WW2? If people thought like you, Obama, and Biden, then no one would have helped back home in WW2 to building ships and weapons.
    Some people say that World War I was never won and that WWI and WWII were one long war with a ceasefire in the middle and that makes very much sense to me. As Tuner said, you can't fight an idea and the idea of racism and imperialism were very much alive after after WWI. After the moral catastrophe of the Shoa, German elites were no longer able to maintain the idea of moral and racial superiority and this is why there hasn't been another war in Central Europe after 45. But the First and Second World War were wars were countries with a Judeo-Christian tradition fought each other. Iraq is something totally different. And for the last time: Al-Quaeda or Islamic terrorists didn't have a strong basis in Iraq before the USA invaded them (or threatened to do so which made Saddam seek Islamist assistance. Iraq was a totalitarian secular regime that was very much hated by Bin-Landen (just as the Muslim brothers in Egypt hate Hosni Mubarak).


    Your party is divided. Even Hilary Clinton and Joe Biden said Barack Obama isn't experienced enough to be President, so I'd like to see you dodge that.
    Once again, it isn't my party. And you also got me wrong as far as Vietnam is concerned. No war -- US-American participation involved or not -- was ever won --at least after Vietnam. It seems to be a part of the DNA of postmodern warfare. As far as the nature of O'Reilly's views is concerned, have a look here how unbiased they are. I know you will refer to how biased the youtuber is, and he definitely is, but still his analysis is very much accurate.


  8. #23
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Tuner, this guy, and his running mate, is sick. This Palin broad knows nothing of family values, and I will keep bringing it up. I'm not Obama, and I don't need to be "politically" correct. You give me a child, and she will understand to not take motherhood lightly, to not sleep around, carelessly and without condoms, and I'd teach her that life's difficulty is to be considered, before bringing a child into a cold cruel world. Oh, wait! She brought a down syndrome baby into the world, where he'll have all the opportunity in the world, I'm sure.

    I believe in real values, ones that require thought and contemplation. Values without intelligence are just impulsive repitition, for a narrow group's sake, rather than for the whole world's sake, and is actually a destructive force. To say, "the bible says 'do not kill, so I won't have an abortion.' is different than saying, 'I will not kill because it makes me evil, worthless and deprives another of his or her humanity and existence.'
    Answer me on the other political forum when i answered your statement about Palin and her family values.

  9. #24
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    Its a philosophical decision. Its not worth the lives of those soldiers. And we have lost. Its quite apparent. You can't fight ideas and that is the main opponent in this. As much as you'd like to believe some magical land is going to arise out of war torn Iraq, it isn't.

    No reason for us to be there, no reason for our men and women to die.
    Point is we came out victorious and now any terrorist group can't gain morale over us losing in this war. We can come out and win this war being the first war won since WW2. If we backed out, it would have been just like Vietnam, a wasted war with no victory and making Anti-war supporters happy when everyone else realized how bad of a decision it was. Iraq is war torn, but as long as insurgents are gone and any Saddam brainwashed civilian understands Democracy and it's freedoms, they have a chance to become a decent nation. If the government and police force can be powerful enough to contain it's people, than we can leave it to the Iraqi people with dignity. And not with our heads down in defeat. It seems like Democrats would rather us lose this war than win it. And retreating would have made us lose this war, FACT.

  10. #25
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pat
    I don't.



    I am not a Democrat. I am not even American.


    It's called campaigning.



    Some people say that World War I was never won and that WWI and WWII were one long war with a ceasefire in the middle and that makes very much sense to me. As Tuner said, you can't fight an idea and the idea of racism and imperialism were very much alive after after WWI. After the moral catastrophe of the Shoa, German elites were no longer able to maintain the idea of moral and racial superiority and this is why there hasn't been another war in Central Europe after 45. But the First and Second World War were wars were countries with a Judeo-Christian tradition fought each other. Iraq is something totally different. And for the last time: Al-Quaeda or Islamic terrorists didn't have a strong basis in Iraq before the USA invaded them (or threatened to do so which made Saddam seek Islamist assistance. Iraq was a totalitarian secular regime that was very much hated by Bin-Landen (just as the Muslim brothers in Egypt hate Hosni Mubarak).




    Once again, it isn't my party. And you also got me wrong as far as Vietnam is concerned. No war -- US-American participation involved or not -- was ever won --at least after Vietnam. It seems to be a part of the DNA of postmodern warfare. As far as the nature of O'Reilly's views is concerned, have a look here how unbiased they are. I know you will refer to how biased the youtuber is, and he definitely is, but still his analysis is very much accurate.

    I compared Obama to McCain, and you had nothing to back up Obama with. To say that WW2 wasn't a victory stat doing some research. Germany controlled most of Europe and then after WW2, most of the land was divided. Jews weren't in consentration camps anymore and weren't being slaughtered by the millions. I dont see why u think that WW2 wasn't a victory.

    I thought you were democrat because when ever i open my mouth i get attacked by so called "independants" that have all views to a Democrat, forgive me for confusing the parties. They sound very much the same on this forum with the same arguements and the same ignorance for Obama's lack of experience.

    Honestly Pat, why are you voting for Obama? Because HE HAS DONE NOTHING THAT QUALIFIES HIM TO BE PRESIDENT.

  11. #26
    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    and any Saddam brainwashed civilian understands Democracy and it's freedoms, they have a chance to become a decent nation.
    Who decides what a "decent nation" is? Who says democracy is a superior form of government? And most importantly, for whom? Social interaction is entirely man made and the values we attribute to it are not universal but relative. (cf. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ])

    btw: I didn't say that the USA didn't win WWII. What I said is that many high-profile historians today tend to say that nobody won WWI which led to WWII. Of course there was a winner in WWII. The major reason why a MORAL victory was possible in WWII is that, at least in Europe (War in Asia was a bit different, but generally speaking the problem was that Japan copied 19th century European Imperialism), Nations with a Judeo-Christian heritage fought each other and within this system the concentration camps were morally wrong. FOR ALL CULTURES INVOLVED. Germans just ignored that. This is why the situation in Germany changed after 1945. But this whole pattern doesn't work if you make a war between two cultures (I am not talking about systems). Islamist fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism will both never give in because within both sides' frame of mind they are fighting a just war.

    And once again, I can't vote for Obama because I am not American. I would if I could, though. Not because he is black, or because of his message of change, but because he seems to have mental flexibility to think outside the old boxes and he seems to be able to understand the global role of the USA and how important the idea of American internationalism is for political stability and tackling the tremendous tasks ahead of America and the world as such. Because he is young there is a better chance that he might care about the future; something that is less likely for a 72 year old man with skin cancer.

    As far as Palin is concerned, I really don't get it. She is a relatively young woman with children and she is still pro drilling in Alaska.

    What's fossil fuels? It's biomass (carbon dioxide) that was taken out of the atmosphere. We know that in prehistory times the earth was a much hotter place than it is now because all this CO2 was in the atmosphere. You don't need to be a genius to know what is going to happen if you put it back in. Using the climate change (decline of permafrost) to speed up this very process is suicidal. I always thought the idea of "conservatism" is to "conserve or preserve" something.

    What we need to do is to develop alternatives. Fusion reactors, sun-collector farms, wind farms. The only nation that has enough man- (and money)power to lead the way in this direction are the USA and they are more likely to do so with Obama.
    Last edited by pat; Sep 05, 2008 at 13:18.

  12. #27
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pat
    Who decides what a "decent nation" is? Who says democracy is a superior form of government? And most importantly, for whom? Social interaction is entirely man made and the values we attribute to it are not universal but relative. (cf. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ])

    Would you rather live in the USA or Afghanistan?

  13. #28
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Would you rather live in the USA or Afghanistan?
    Let's see. USA. But that is because it is closer to my cultural roots. Actually, it is quite similar to my cultural origins.

    But would you rather live in Afghanistan, Congo, or the Republic of Belarus? Thanks for proving my point.

    I know I will never convince you, just like you will never convince me but discussing these matters makes us both a bit more open minded. (at least that is what I hope). Did you watch that O'Reilly video, btw?
    Last edited by pat; Sep 05, 2008 at 13:12.

  14. #29
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pat
    Let's see. USA. But that is because it is closer to my cultural roots. It is quite similar to my cultural origins.

    But would you rather live in Afghanistan, Congo, or the Republic of Belarus? Thanks for proving my point.

    I know I will never convince you, just like you will never convince me but discussing these matters makes us both a bit more open minded. (at least that is what I hope). Did you watch that O'Reilly video, btw?
    Well at least your open-minded and I respect you for that. I know the Congo is horrible but I do not know the Republic of Belarus so I can't answer that for you. I compared Democracy and Tyranny and the way the USA feels a government should be and the way Iraq or Afghanistan's former leaders felt the government should be. There is a clear difference and that difference is freedom. And that is why the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is worth it, because the end result, is freedom. And freedom is the greatest gift a country can give to it's people. And that is why America is what it is today.

    If the Bill O'Reilly video you are talking about is the one that you posted, yes I watched the first part when he said his comment. I think using lynching in a statement about Michelle Obama only got noticed because she is black. If O'Reilly was talking about McCain's wife, this youtube video would have never been posted. Lynching was the wrong word to use, and everyone makes mistakes such as this but it doesn't make them racist.

    Did you watch the interview Bill O'Reilly had with Barack Obama last night?

  15. #30
    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355

    Did you watch the interview Bill O'Reilly had with Barack Obama last night?

    Nope. Not yet. But I definitely will. As far as freedom is concerned. As far as my life is concerned I would definitely agree with you but you cannot force freedom upon a people. That is why so many Iraqi people hate the US-troops (just like the Afghan-people). It is something that has to develop from within. And freedom can be very different things (economic independence, freedom of speech, freedom to travel, freedom to practice a religion, freedom to practice no religion, absence of foreign troops in your country,...) Maybe African countries or Asian countries, or Native Americans would have come up with an even better idea than democracy hadn't there been colonialism. Who knows.

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