Constitutional Convention Calling (Clear sign of Warning)

TunerAddict

Starter
What is so hard to fathom about there just being intelligent creatures, that just do good, according to what God deems good? Bible says when God made the earth, all the morning stars sang, and all the sons of God applauded. All would include Satan, since only angels are referred to as sons of god. Therefore, clearly, there was a time when even Satan was good. But Jehovah did not make him a robot. He was free to change his mind about being good whenever he felt, if he felt.


Clearly God was good before there was evil, if all his sons applaud his work, and join in and sing and praise him.


Obviously you do not understand. There cannot be "creatures" doing good without evil. If there is not evil, there is not good and vice versa. They are foils of each other. If one exists, the other exists as well. Saying something is "good." Ok, so then if something is not like that, it is "not good," or evil.

What you're saying is that god was always good. But that cannot be if there is an absence of evil. Look, if there isn't evil, there is nothing to contrast with being good. So if god was being "good" before evil, there is no way of telling this. It would just be the norm. It would be the status quo. Without evil, there is no good.
 
Like I said, we are part of some cosmic bet. What's the point of living if we are just a bet? You don't bet with people you love, like you claim he does. And yes he is vindictive, and contradictive as well. On one hand he loves us and on the other hand we're just part of some bet. Meanwhile billions of people suffer while he waits for the results. In my example of someone getting beaten, it would be like me betting on the little guy while his poor life is about to be beaten out of him. I don't help him, I just make a bet with my friends. Your God is an awful, awful being.
You do realize Jehovah has the power to undo anything that has been done. I believe I explained the ressurrection hope, along with improved conditions on earth. Plans that he set in motion, the very same day everything went haywire. The fact that it has not come yet is so billions of people can have the opptortunity to attain it. So it is not that he has not helped, it's that you don't recognize it, because you think you are above God. Period.



Well, anyway, I'm sorry Knicks4lyfe, but you are so wrong. These things will never happen. I am positive of this. I am so convinced they will never happen I am willing to make a bet with you. I will give you everything I have if I am wrong. Are you willing to do the same? So, when you are old and on your deathbed (and I mean that, I hope you live a long and fruitful life) and will eventually die of natural causes, and still God has not come down to save his children, will you give me everything you have?.
I no longer gamble, and besides, It will not be rewarding to win a bet with your life on the line, because that's what's at stake here, whether you believe it, or not. And it's unfortunate, because nothing about you says you are unintelligent enough to grasp the concept, it's just that you've been blinded mentally by the god of this system, and thus, you are an unbeliever. (2nd corinthians 4:4)

But here's a nugget. As early as the the 1920's and beyond, Jehovah's witnesses have been preaching that the harlot in revelation represent false religion on earth. The wild beast that the Harlot is associated with, represents all the ruling governments in the world. Now, this should not be hard to fathom since religion and politics seem to go hand in glove in the world. But eventually in revelation, the Beast gets sick of the Harlot, and decides to turn on her in a blink of an eye. So much so that it eats her alive. This would mean that the ruling governments of this world will get so sick and tired of false religion, they just decide to kill it. If you have been paying attention, you can see the disgust that not only people in the world, but the rulers of the world are with religion. It is no longer laughable to suggest a worldwide ban on religion anymore. In fact, more and more bans on religions are popping up in places, and places where religion used to be common place, it is becoming scarce.

When religion is killed, it will mark the begining of the storied Great Tribulation that Jesus said will be so bad, that there will never be a time as bad before, or after it. And it will be so bad, that it will have to be cut short in order for Jehovah's chosen to survive it.

Again, It is no longer laughable to suggest a worldwide ban on religion anymore. That day is fastly appraching, and only Jehovah's witnesses have been preaching it. No other group on earth. So the day you look up and see false religion gone.. Remember Jehovah's warning. And remember only his people were the one's trying to tell people that day would come.


I already know your answer. You will say God has chosen to come after your death (because trust me, it isn't going to happen in your lifetime, I guarantee it). Which is how religion keeps on going. The devil will never be destroyed because he does not exist. Because God does not exist. It's the classic comic book story. There has to be a villain. If there is no villain, then there can't be a story. All I ask is for you to remember this when you are dieing. Maybe then you will see the err of your ways.

Jehovah's day is not far off. There is no longer 80 years, 100 years til this happens. It is fastly approaching. So much so that If I am living to be 40, I highly doubt that we'll still be in this system. I'm 30 as of this past Dec 21st. This does not mean that I will be right, because Jesus said no one knows the day or hour, just be prepared for it. So I am preparing as if it's tomorrow. And all the signs point to it being imminent.

The devil not existing is the biggest trick he has ever pulled off. Sorry you fell for it. That even trumps him having people believe God does not exist. Really sorry you fell for that.

Comic books don't have prophecy. The Bible does. Comic books deal with make believe characters. The Bible deals with people who really actually lived, or live now. Big, big difference.

Err in my ways? What ways? My beliefs? My ways are what I do with my life, do you know what I do with my life? Please, inform me.



I think it's sad that you think I am worshipping satan and that I am evil. I have probably done more good on this earth than you have. I just simply don't believe God exists.

You are unknowingly abiding to his will. Satan wants people apart from God. You don't believe God exists. Satan, has up until this point, and maybe as long as you live, succeeded. Whether you like it or not,

When have I ever said you, personally, were evil? Please don't put words in my mouth. There are plenty of well meaning, good people who just don't know God. Nothing I have ever wrote about this subject goes against that.


But regardless of how much good I do on this earth it doesn't matter at all. The most important thing is that I worship him. What an egomaniac and narcissist.
Ah, the zero accountability thing again. Do you not feel that you owe your mom and dad a certain debt of gratitude for you being here, and raising you the best they can with what ever love and resources they had? Did you just do whatever growing up, contrary to what they taught was best for you, simply because if they are good parents they would allow you to do whatever, for if they did not they were bad parents? I'm pretty sure you tried to do the right thing because you figured they were trying to help you grow into the respectful, good person you rant and rave you are today.

All Jehovah is asking, is that you do the same for him, because without him, you have no parents, not Adam, Eve, or lucy the monkey in your case. None exist without him willing it. So really, is God really asking much back from you? Or are YOU really the egomaniac here?

I could cure all of the diseases in the world but as long as I don't worship your God I am more evil than the child molesters I gave as an example.
Again, where did I say you were more evil than anyone? This tells me you keep missing it.

In your world, Jeffrey Dahmer is rewarded with peace and happiness, yet Gandhi is punished simply because he didn't worship your God. And to me, I cannot accept that. If I met your God as a person, I would walk away from him because he has all of the negative personality traits of a really, really bad person.

Jehovah is the Judge, not knicks4lyfe on the kincks message board, hangout section. Jehovah promises a ressurrection of the righteous, and the unrighteous. Who those souls are, only he knows. But the Bible helps one to know the difference between righteous, unrighteous, and wicked. Who said Ghandi was bad? He has every bit a chance at ressurection as anyone else who died. To us, Dahmer was a a twisted person. To Jehovah, Dahmer may have been guided in the wrong path by something none of us know about. This could spur him to ressurrect him in the new system, and even bring back those Dahmer killed. Who knows? The good thing is, it's possible. And that is not bad news at all. Since when is giving a person who did bad, a chance to do over what was bad, and turn to good, a bad thing? That is essentially what you scoff at. To me, that is showing love. Dahmer was imperfect just like you and I are. Maybe his circumstances guided him to whatever state he was in. The fact that there is a very good chance that Jehovah brings at least the victims back for a chance at eternal life is a wonderful hope. That is nothing your science books could ever provide.


No matter how smart you think you are, you just keep falling flat, because the wisdom of man falls far short of the creator's. This is why you do things like compare the bible, a book with real people, doing real things to comic books, made up by Stan Lee's imagination. The Bible says, Jehovah catches the wise in their own cunning. You still have time to take heed to that.
 
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LJ4ptplay

Starter
First off, I would like to say that I enjoy these debates with you Knicks4lyfe. I don't mean any disrespect even though the debates can get a little heated. We're both passionate about something (other than the crap on television) and that's a good thing.

You do realize Jehovah has the power to undo anything that has been done. I believe I explained the ressurrection hope, along with improved conditions on earth. Plans that he set in motion, the very same day everything went haywire. The fact that it has not come yet is so billions of people can have the opptortunity to attain it. So it is not that he has not helped, it's that you don't recognize it, because you think you are above God. Period.

Why is he waiting for billions of people to get it? Shouldn't he already know the outcome (i.e. who's in, who's out. etc.)? I mean, he is the all knowing, all powerful being. What's the point of waiting for something when he knows who to save and who not to save before they attain it? This whole thing just doesn't fit for a perfect being. Either he's imperfect and doesn't know ahead of time or he's perfect and he just enjoys watching poeple suffer.

Jehovah's day is not far off. There is no longer 80 years, 100 years til this happens. It is fastly approaching. So much so that If I am living to be 40, I highly doubt that we'll still be in this system. I'm 30 as of this past Dec 21st. This does not mean that I will be right, because Jesus said no one knows the day or hour, just be prepared for it. So I am preparing as if it's tomorrow. And all the signs point to it being imminent.

Well, like I said, it's not going to happen. Jehovah's Witnesses have been predicting the end of the world for a long time now and have been wrong every time. You guys are like 0 for 25 now.

Ah, the zero accountability thing again. Do you not feel that you owe your mom and dad a certain debt of gratitude for you being here, and raising you the best they can with what ever love and resources they had? Did you just do whatever growing up, contrary to what they taught was best for you, simply because if they are good parents they would allow you to do whatever, for if they did not they were bad parents? I'm pretty sure you tried to do the right thing because you figured they were trying to help you grow into the respectful, good person you rant and rave you are today.

Your parents analogy doesn't fit again. A more accurate analogy would be my parents dropping me off at an orphanage with a book of rules to follow. I wonder how long a child would wait before he realizes his parents aren't coming and their rule book is bulls**t. I respect my parents rules because they raised me, god didn't raise me. No matter how you word it, my parents worked hard to provide for me, not god.

I no longer gamble, and besides, It will not be rewarding to win a bet with your life on the line, because that's what's at stake here, whether you believe it, or not. And it's unfortunate, because nothing about you says you are unintelligent enough to grasp the concept, it's just that you've been blinded mentally by the god of this system, and thus, you are an unbeliever. (2nd corinthians 4:4)

Ahhh! It's all very clear to me now. You used to gamble. There is a modus operandi for religious extremists. 1.) They were raised by their parents to be that way and therefore were hidden from reality. Or 2.) Something bad happened in their life previously to make them feel not special and unwanted and religion filled that void.

Let me take a guess...you are the second example. It probably makes you feel special to think you are the only one (and people like you) that know the truth. Reality isn't what it seems and everybody is wrong except you. Makes sense. But it doesn't mean it's right.

I've read a little more on Jehovah's Witnesses. No wonder you are so devoted. If you were to leave, you would lose all of your friends and family. Your wife and children would not be allowed to talk to you anymore. You would be shunned. And if your children grow up and leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, you would have to shun them. That's ashame. It's like you are in a prison from reality. And all this talk about you being god's children, god's love and how good Jehovah's Witnesses are.



http://www.4jehovah.org/ex-jehovahs-witness.php

http://www.virushead.net/exjw.html


It's ok. There is a good life out there without the JW's. You can still be important and special without god. When you know this is the only chance at life that you have, you actually live. It is refreshing. I am not the devil, or influened by the devil. You can be a good person and still live a good life, but be free.
 
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First off, I would like to say that I enjoy these debates with you Knicks4lyfe. I don't mean any disrespect even though the debates can get a little heated. We're both passionate about something (other than the crap on television) and that's a good thing.
Ditto!



Why is he waiting for billions of people to get it? Shouldn't he already know the outcome (i.e. who's in, who's out. etc.)? I mean, he is the all knowing, all powerful being. What's the point of waiting for something when he knows who to save and who not to save before they attain it?
Remember the so called, "cosmic bet" as you so eloquently put it? That "Cosmic bet" is actually the right to universal sovereign. That is a pretty big deal, as even though God has the ability to see into the future, and know outcomes, his created, free moral agents, (angels and humans) do not. So to avoid there ever being a "cosmic" issue of the same magnitude, Jehovah, smartly, allowed Mankind to try and rule apart from him, and Satan to be God of this world for a time, to show that only Jehovah is fit to rule over his subjects. But it has to also play out for the free moral agents (angels and humans) to take effect. Get that?


This whole thing just doesn't fit for a perfect being. Either he's imperfect and doesn't know ahead of time or he's perfect and he just enjoys watching poeple suffer.
If he were imperfect, he could die. If he enjoyed watching people suffer, he would not promise to fix matters, and there certainly would be a place as a fiery hell. But even as rebellious as Satan has been, even he will not suffer in eternal flames. He will simply cease to exist, like every other free moral agent that stands on Satan's side of the soveriegnty issue.



Well, like I said, it's not going to happen. Jehovah's Witnesses have been predicting the end of the world for a long time now and have been wrong every time. You guys are like 0 for 25 now.
Now it would seem just that easy, would it not? Except that I know from examples in the bible that in times past, even true followers of Jehovah have had wrong expectations of prophetic fulfillment. For instance, when Jesus was alive, many disciples thought he was going to rid the earth of wickeness at that very time. But astute study of the bible would have shown them that he had to first re-establish truth, since the Jews abandoned it, and then he had to fulfill the ransom sacrifice. Did Jesus ridicule them? No, simply they were corrected, and stayed the course. Some left the course. Either way, it was a test of faith, and since the "cosmic bet" involves mankind choosing to be faithful to God, these tests are necessary.





Your parents analogy doesn't fit again. A more accurate analogy would be my parents dropping me off at an orphanage with a book of rules to follow. I wonder how long a child would wait before he realizes his parents aren't coming and their rule book is bulls**t. I respect my parents rules because they raised me, god didn't raise me. No matter how you word it, my parents worked hard to provide for me, not god.
Well, you're wrong again. Jehovah would never ask us to believe in who he is, and what he is about, without giving many examples.

He saved Noah and is family, saved Lot and his family out of Sodom and Gammorah, warned Christians in Jerusalem of the pending destruction there. All in a "comic book". Now, Jesus said that before the end of this system (the world under Satans rule would be destroyed) the Good news of the Kingdom had to be preached in the entire inhabited earth (mat 24:14)

This Good news is only being preached by one group of people on earth, from the most popular book in human history, during the worst of times in human history. Just as Jesus said it would be. Coincidence?

Everything else the bible touches on that deals with the very time we live in, is happening, or will soon come to pass. And this, any common observer can see with their own eyes, even if they have never picked up a Bible. So just because JW's have had wrong expectations of when the actual end of this system will be, does not mean that the end of this system won't come. They once laughed at Noah, and Jesus said the end of this system, will be just like Noah's day. Men drinking, partying and marrying, and getting along in life, and taking no note of pending destruction, until it is upon them... But as for his disciples.. He told them to stay awake, for all that must happen, will in God's due time.


Ahhh! It's all very clear to me now. You used to gamble. There is a modus operandi for religious extremists. 1.) They were raised by their parents to be that way and therefore were hidden from reality. Or 2.) Something bad happened in their life previously to make them feel not special and unwanted and religion filled that void.

Let me take a guess...you are the second example. It probably makes you feel special to think you are the only one (and people like you) that know the truth. Reality isn't what it seems and everybody is wrong except you. Makes sense. But it doesn't mean it's right.
I was brought up from about 6 years old studying with JW's, but my family as a whole were still mostly non believers. In fact, it's still kinda that way today. Secondly, I knew that as long as I kept living my life apart from Jehovah, it would never amount to what it could be. Even the times when I called myself enjoying life were really not, because usually they involved things in opposition to living righteous. So I would it was a combo of both. I mean, what could be more important, or fun, than establishing a relationship with the creator of all things? Especially one who cares enough to sacrifice his own son, so that those excercising faith can live? I mean, the thought of that, goes beyond parents who sacrifice their goals in life to raise us.

I've read a little more on Jehovah's Witnesses. No wonder you are so devoted. If you were to leave, you would lose all of your friends and family. Your wife and children would not be allowed to talk to you anymore. You would be shunned. And if your children grow up and leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, you would have to shun them. That's ashame. It's like you are in a prison from reality. And all this talk about you being god's children, god's love and how good Jehovah's Witnesses are.



http://www.4jehovah.org/ex-jehovahs-witness.php

http://www.virushead.net/exjw.html

Actually, that is not totally true. My immediate family (wife, kids) will always be able to speak to me. But only about matters outside of our spirituality. The Bible does not condone divorce unless one commits adultery. Therefore, unless I do that, my wife would still have to follow biblical guidlines as far as respecting Jehovah, and I would still be the head of the household. And Jehovah directs children to be obedient to their parents, and I'm pretty sure, being obedient does not mean ignoring their now unbelieving dad. However, if they are followers of Jehovah still, they should not obey me, over God, for I am just a man, husband, or father. So their SPIRITUAL outlook should still relfect Jehovah's laws and principles.

Now family outside of that, if they are serving Jehovah, are advised by him to stay away from a man who has come to know the truth, but leaves the truth for another faith, or other endeavors outside of Jehovah's arrangement. You say that's a shame, but this did not only take place on earth, thesevery same things even take place in heaven. You think the angels in heaven that stayed true to Jehovah wanted to see any of their brothers leave him, and them? But they are free moral agents, it was totally their choice. There are however,consequences,for breaking rules. I know you hate being accountable and all, but you do the crime, you do the time.

So a person choosing to obey God, even at the cost of losing a loved one who no longer wants to serve God, should not be condemned. It is their choice to remain faithful to their maker, just as it is the other parties to reject him. The apostate, or one who knows truth, abides, then leaves it, knows full well what the bible warns will happen to them. So they choose this willingly. Free moral agents. But still accountable in some way to God regardless.


It's ok. There is a good life out there without the JW's. You can still be important and special without god. When you know this is the only chance at life that you have, you actually live. It is refreshing. I am not the devil, or influened by the devil. You can be a good person and still live a good life, but be free.

There is a good life.. Man, let's just be frank, nothing about living into your 70's maybe 80's or 90's if you're fortunate, but getting old, sick, seeing people die around you, catastrophe after catastrophe, struggling to get by, or knowing some who are, none of this should be considered a GOOD LIFE. It really is not life at all. It's a fascade. You will not have lived long enoughto see half of what life, and the world has to offer. This is a mere existence.

Psalms 37
9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off,
But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.

10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.

11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

That's a good life. What you just said, not so much. That is existing for a few minutes.

Also, I'm quite surprised you used videos of former witnesses, or apostates, to support your free living. Because to you, anyone religious is in chains of bondage. And I highly doubt you will justify leaving JW's and joing another religion would free me. That was a shocker. You're usually better than that.
 
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For LJ.

This was put out in 06, to help people to know what will shortly take place.

A​
Worldwide Message
The
End of False Religion Is Near!

â–Ş What is false religion?
â–Ş How will it end?
â–Ş How will you be affected?​
What​
Is False Religion?

Are you distressed about crimes committed in the name of religion? Do the warfare, terrorism, and corruption perpetrated by those who claim to serve God offend your sense of justice? Why does religion seem to be at the root of so many problems?
The fault lies, not with all religion, but with false religion. A widely respected religious figure, Jesus Christ, indicated that false religion produces bad works, just as a "rotten tree produces worthless fruit." (Matthew 7:15-17) What fruit does false religion yield?​
False​
Religion . . .

â–Ş MEDDLES IN WAR AND POLITICS: "Across Asia and beyond," says the journal Asiaweek, "power-hungry leaders are cynically manipulating people?s religious sentiments for their own needs." As a result, the journal warns: "The world threatens to sink into madness." A prominent religious leader in the United States declared: "You?ve got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops." His solution? "Blow them all away in the name of the Lord." By contrast, the Bible says: "If anyone makes the statement: ?I love God,? and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar." (1 John 4:20) Jesus even said: "Continue to love your enemies." (Matthew 5:44) How many religions can you think of whose members engage in war?

â–Ş SPREADS FALSE DOCTRINE: Most religions teach that the soul or spirit is some invisible part of a human that survives the death of the physical body. By means of this teaching, many of these religions exploit their members, charging money to pray for departed souls. However, the Bible teaches a different doctrine. "The soul that is sinning?it itself will die." (Ezekiel 18:4) "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Jesus taught that the dead will be resurrected?an unnecessary action if humans had an immortal soul. (John 11:11-25) Does your religion teach that the soul does not die?

â–Ş TOLERATES IMMORAL SEX: In Western lands, church groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same-sex marriages. Even churches that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children. What, though, does the Bible teach? It plainly states: "Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men . . . will inherit God?s kingdom." (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Do you know of religions that condone immoral sex?
What does the future hold for religions that produce rotten fruit? Jesus warned: "Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 7:19) Yes, false religion will be chopped down and destroyed! But how and when will this happen? A prophetic vision recorded in the Bible book of Revelation, chapters 17 and 18, provides the answer.​

How​
Will False Religion End?


Picture the scene. A harlot is sitting on the back of a fearsome beast. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:1-4) Whom does the harlot represent? She exerts influence "over the kings of the earth." She dresses in purple, uses incense, and is exceedingly wealthy. In addition, by means of her spiritistic practice, ?all the nations are misled.? (Revelation 17:18; 18:12, 13, 23) The Bible helps us to see that this harlot is a worldwide religious entity. She depicts, not any one religion, but all religions that produce rotten fruit.

The beast that the harlot rides pictures the world?s political powers. (Revelation 17:10-13) False religion straddles the back of this political beast, attempting to influence its decisions and to control its direction.
Soon, though, an amazing event will take place. "The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire." (Revelation 17:16)

In a sudden, shocking move, the world?s political powers will turn on false religion and completely destroy her! What will prompt this action? The Bible book of Revelation answers: "God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought." (Revelation 17:17) Yes, God will call false religion to account for all the despicable acts she has committed in his name. In a stroke of perfect justice, he will use her political paramours as his instrument of execution.
What must you do if you do not want to share the fate of false religion? "Get out of her, my people," urges God?s messenger. (Revelation 18:4) Indeed, now is the time to flee from false religion! But to where can you flee? Not into atheism, since its future is also bleak. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) The only haven is within true religion. How can you identify true religion?​

How
to Identify True Religion


What good fruit should true religion produce??Matthew 7:17.​

True​
Religion . . .

â–Ş PRACTICES LOVE: True worshippers are "no part of the world," are not divided by race or culture, and display ?love among themselves.? (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.?1 John 3:16.

â–Ş TRUSTS GOD?S WORD: Instead of teaching "tradition" and "commands of men as doctrines," true religion bases its doctrine on God?s Word, the Bible. (Matthew 15:6-9) Why? Because "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight."?2 Timothy 3:16.

â–Ş STRENGTHENS FAMILIES AND UPHOLDS HIGH MORAL STANDARDS: True religion trains husbands to ?love their wives as their own bodies,? helps wives to develop ?deep respect for their husbands,? and teaches children to ?be obedient to their parents.? (Ephesians 5:28, 33; 6:1) In addition, those entrusted with positions of authority must have exemplary morals.?1 Timothy 3:1-10.
Does any religion meet these standards? The book Holocaust Politics, (not published byJehovah's Witnesses) published in 2001, says: "If more people practiced versions of what the Jehovah?s Witnesses preach and practice, the Holocaust could have been prevented and genocide would scourge the world no more."

Indeed, in 235 lands, Jehovah?s Witnesses do not just preach the Bible?s moral standards?they live by them. We urge you to ask Jehovah?s Witnesses to help you learn what God requires of you so that you can worship him acceptably. Now is the time to act. Do not delay. The end of false religion is near!?Zephaniah 2:2, 3.​
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
Ditto!



Remember the so called, "cosmic bet" as you so eloquently put it? That "Cosmic bet" is actually the right to universal sovereign. That is a pretty big deal, as even though God has the ability to see into the future, and know outcomes, his created, free moral agents, (angels and humans) do not. So to avoid there ever being a "cosmic" issue of the same magnitude, Jehovah, smartly, allowed Mankind to try and rule apart from him, and Satan to be God of this world for a time, to show that only Jehovah is fit to rule over his subjects. But it has to also play out for the free moral agents (angels and humans) to take effect. Get that?


If he were imperfect, he could die. If he enjoyed watching people suffer, he would not promise to fix matters, and there certainly would be a place as a fiery hell. But even as rebellious as Satan has been, even he will not suffer in eternal flames. He will simply cease to exist, like every other free moral agent that stands on Satan's side of the soveriegnty issue.



Now it would seem just that easy, would it not? Except that I know from examples in the bible that in times past, even true followers of Jehovah have had wrong expectations of prophetic fulfillment. For instance, when Jesus was alive, many disciples thought he was going to rid the earth of wickeness at that very time. But astute study of the bible would have shown them that he had to first re-establish truth, since the Jews abandoned it, and then he had to fulfill the ransom sacrifice. Did Jesus ridicule them? No, simply they were corrected, and stayed the course. Some left the course. Either way, it was a test of faith, and since the "cosmic bet" involves mankind choosing to be faithful to God, these tests are necessary.





Well, you're wrong again. Jehovah would never ask us to believe in who he is, and what he is about, without giving many examples.

He saved Noah and is family, saved Lot and his family out of Sodom and Gammorah, warned Christians in Jerusalem of the pending destruction there. All in a "comic book". Now, Jesus said that before the end of this system (the world under Satans rule would be destroyed) the Good news of the Kingdom had to be preached in the entire inhabited earth (mat 24:14)

This Good news is only being preached by one group of people on earth, from the most popular book in human history, during the worst of times in human history. Just as Jesus said it would be. Coincidence?

Everything else the bible touches on that deals with the very time we live in, is happening, or will soon come to pass. And this, any common observer can see with their own eyes, even if they have never picked up a Bible. So just because JW's have had wrong expectations of when the actual end of this system will be, does not mean that the end of this system won't come. They once laughed at Noah, and Jesus said the end of this system, will be just like Noah's day. Men drinking, partying and marrying, and getting along in life, and taking no note of pending destruction, until it is upon them... But as for his disciples.. He told them to stay awake, for all that must happen, will in God's due time.


I was brought up from about 6 years old studying with JW's, but my family as a whole were still mostly non believers. In fact, it's still kinda that way today. Secondly, I knew that as long as I kept living my life apart from Jehovah, it would never amount to what it could be. Even the times when I called myself enjoying life were really not, because usually they involved things in opposition to living righteous. So I would it was a combo of both. I mean, what could be more important, or fun, than establishing a relationship with the creator of all things? Especially one who cares enough to sacrifice his own son, so that those excercising faith can live? I mean, the thought of that, goes beyond parents who sacrifice their goals in life to raise us.



Actually, that is not totally true. My immediate family (wife, kids) will always be able to speak to me. But only about matters outside of our spirituality. The Bible does not condone divorce unless one commits adultery. Therefore, unless I do that, my wife would still have to follow biblical guidlines as far as respecting Jehovah, and I would still be the head of the household. And Jehovah directs children to be obedient to their parents, and I'm pretty sure, being obedient does not mean ignoring their now unbelieving dad. However, if they are followers of Jehovah still, they should not obey me, over God, for I am just a man, husband, or father. So their SPIRITUAL outlook should still relfect Jehovah's laws and principles.

Now family outside of that, if they are serving Jehovah, are advised by him to stay away from a man who has come to know the truth, but leaves the truth for another faith, or other endeavors outside of Jehovah's arrangement. You say that's a shame, but this did not only take place on earth, thesevery same things even take place in heaven. You think the angels in heaven that stayed true to Jehovah wanted to see any of their brothers leave him, and them? But they are free moral agents, it was totally their choice. There are however,consequences,for breaking rules. I know you hate being accountable and all, but you do the crime, you do the time.

So a person choosing to obey God, even at the cost of losing a loved one who no longer wants to serve God, should not be condemned. It is their choice to remain faithful to their maker, just as it is the other parties to reject him. The apostate, or one who knows truth, abides, then leaves it, knows full well what the bible warns will happen to them. So they choose this willingly. Free moral agents. But still accountable in some way to God regardless.




There is a good life.. Man, let's just be frank, nothing about living into your 70's maybe 80's or 90's if you're fortunate, but getting old, sick, seeing people die around you, catastrophe after catastrophe, struggling to get by, or knowing some who are, none of this should be considered a GOOD LIFE. It really is not life at all. It's a fascade. You will not have lived long enoughto see half of what life, and the world has to offer. This is a mere existence.

Psalms 37
9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off,
But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.

10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.

11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

That's a good life. What you just said, not so much. That is existing for a few minutes.

Also, I'm quite surprised you used videos of former witnesses, or apostates, to support your free living. Because to you, anyone religious is in chains of bondage. And I highly doubt you will justify leaving JW's and joing another religion would free me. That was a shocker. You're usually better than that.

I get it. You've mentioned the stories several times now, but you're going around in circles and not addressing the root question. The how and why, if you will.

That is, WHY WOULD and HOW COULD a perfect being create something unintended?

You have claimed many times that we are not what he intended. How could a perfect being, that can see into the future create something he did not intend? An unintended result implies imperfection. Do you understand?

Also, why would a perfect being that can see into the future create an angel that would become bad (i.e. Satan)? If he could see into the future, he would know the angel would turn bad and cause all of our sufferings. If he wanted us to live forever in peace and harmony, and Satan is the cause of us not living in peace and harmony, why would he have created Satan in the first place? Since he can see in the future he would have known Satan would do these things.

This whole perfect being that can see in the future doesn't fit. Too many results suggest an imperfect being that cannot see into the future. There are far too many holes in the logic to believe this story. You can say free will is the answer all you want but it doesn't answer the true question of how and why a perfect being that can see into the future could/would create something with unintended results. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
 
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I get it. You've mentioned the stories several times now, but you're going around in circles and not addressing the root question. The how and why, if you will.

That is, WHY WOULD and HOW COULD a perfect being create something unintended?

You have claimed many times that we are not what he intended. How could a perfect being, that can see into the future create something he did not intend? An unintended result implies imperfection. Do you understand?
God did not create this. He created perfect, moral free agents, out of pure love, in his image, so that they can choose to love him for their existence. They had the ability to make the right decision, flawlessly, with only his input on what is good, vs bad. It was totally on them to stay the course of righteousness. When they strayed from that, they misused the gift of free will.

On the other hand, there are myriads of angels who had the same ability that Satan misused, that is their perfection, and righteous use of their free will. Jesus lived as a perfect man, and died as a perfect man, under trials none of us would last 2 minutes in. What this simply proves is that their is nothing wrong, or imperfect with God's perfect, moral, free agents. In order to love, you have to choose to do so. No one loves anyone, or anything out of forcefulness. if God took away free will, he could not possibly have been loved by angels or humans, because we'd be like robots at nasa.

Also, why would a perfect being that can see into the future create an angel that would become bad (i.e. Satan)? If he could see into the future, he would know the angel would turn bad and cause all of our sufferings. If he wanted us to live forever in peace and harmony, and Satan is the cause of us not living in peace and harmony, why would he have created Satan in the first place? Since he can see in the future he would have known Satan would do these things.
The Angel turned bad, not God's fault. That means that God did not create Satan, Satan created Satan. The things explained about Satan say that God took great pride and joy in creating him in his image. Satan decided to get full of himself.

Here's a thought. Maybe Jehovah did look into the future, many different ways. Maybe he saw that if he just destroyed Satan, or never created him, some other angel would take his place. And at some point, his sovereignty would have been challenged, anyway. So smartly, he allowed it to take place, but also knew he would have to provide a way out for those caught in the middle (other angels, humans) to choose to love him, or not.




This whole perfect being that can see in the future doesn't fit. Too many results suggest an imperfect being that cannot see into the future. There are far too many holes in the logic to believe this story. You can say free will is the answer all you want but it doesn't answer the true question of how and why a perfect being that can see into the future could/would create something with unintended results. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

To an imperfect philosopher, no. But God is truth, not imperfect philosophy. Either you are allowing free will, which MEANS ALLOWING A RIGHT, OR, WRONG CHOICE, or you are making robots. Jehovah decided to give free will. But gave them every advantage possible to making the right choice, even told them what would happen if they abuse it, beforehand.

The bible says, one day, after all this is said and done, the heavens and the earth will rejoice in happiness as being the ones favored, and loved by God, and loving him for eternity. That means God looked into the future as far as he can go (forever) and saw angels and mankind worshiping him that amount of time!

Jehovah will be vindicated on all false accounts, because what he intended is already happening. He wants free moral agents to worship him out of love, and that has already happened in heaven, and is taking place on earth.

If God was imperfect, and could not see the future, there could be no way Mathew 24:14 could happen. As much as you try to disprove the bible, there is nothing you, or anyone can do about that verse. It's happening-NOW! You can't say it was written after, forged, or everyone is doing it, or as a whole, they are bad people, kill in wars, steal from their followers, etc. Not if you're honest with yourself, at least.

If God was imperfect, and could not see the future, there would be no reason for this to be in the bible (One of my favorites, by the way)

Genesis 1:24 And God went on to say: ?Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.? And it came to be so.

Maybe he saw that Satan would try to blind people with the lie called Evolution. In the many discussions about whether we originate from primates, I found out that even in sciences best explanations, the species found were an extinct KIND of primate, or extinct KIND or man. I mean, heck, there are many kinds of fruits, veggies, flowers, rocks, planets, even angels differ. Yet it's so tough to just believe God made man to vary as well? This verse thoroughly explains how the different species of primate-man they find stay in their respective families, and there is no tweener. All science has done, is prove this verse right.

Maybe God is not the faulty one here at all.
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
Free will is your answer, again. You keep going in circles here and did not answer the question. You have said, on many occasions, that we are not living how he intended. Therefore a perfect being that can see in the future created something he did not intend = impossible. No matter how you word it, it's just simply impossible and completely illogical. I'm sorry, free will does not explain it.

If God was imperfect, and could not see the future, there could be no way Mathew 24:14 could happen.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.

Exactly! God doesn't exist because this will not happen. Give me indisputable proof that this will happen. You can't = God imperfect = God does not exist.

If God was imperfect, and could not see the future, there would be no reason for this to be in the bible (One of my favorites, by the way)

Genesis 1:24 And God went on to say: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” And it came to be so.

Exactly! Again! This isn't true, and therefore God = imperfect = God does not exist. Man, you make this too easy.

We made domestic animals, not God. That is fact. How could a perfect being that can see into the future screw up like that? He would have known we would domesticate animals, not him creating them? It is man made evolution. Artificial selection instead of natural slection. Controlled selective breeding to produce desired genetic characteristics. Man, your favorite quote just destroyed your religion.

Maybe he saw that Satan would try to blind people with the lie called Evolution. In the many discussions about whether we originate from primates, I found out that even in sciences best explanations, the species found were an extinct KIND of primate, or extinct KIND or man. I mean, heck, there are many kinds of fruits, veggies, flowers, rocks, planets, even angels differ. Yet it's so tough to just believe God made man to vary as well? This verse thoroughly explains how the different species of primate-man they find stay in their respective families, and there is no tweener. All science has done, is prove this verse right.

Maybe God is not the faulty one here at all.

Again, he saw Satan would do these things yet he still created him. A perfect being that can see into the future creating something that he didn't want. Your answer of another angel taking his place is just a wild guess and doesn't answer the question. Inevitable doesn't apply to a perfect being that can see into the future.

To answer your claim about evolution, I'm sorry I can't help you anymore with this. You just don't understand genus vs. species. I've tried to explain this to you but you just don't understand. I've given you several examples of transitional species in both human evolution and other animals. "Kinds" doesn't explain them at all. Besides, those examples, that you now understand as once existing, disprove your religion anyway. They existed over 3 million years ago, which goes against your religion (i.e. life began 6,000 years ago).
 
Free will is your answer, again. You keep going in circles here and did not answer the question. You have said, on many occasions, that we are not living how he intended. Therefore a perfect being that can see in the future created something he did not intend = impossible. No matter how you word it, it's just simply impossible and completely illogical. I'm sorry, free will does not explain it.

LOL... Ok. Last time on this. Pretty easy. If at one time, all were perfect, that means the creator cannot be imperfect. He created perfect beings, that can choose to either remain perfect, and live, or imperfect and die. That is why there is no other answer but free will.

God says "you are now perfect, and have free will. If you obey my laws, you will remain in my love,and perfect, and keep living. If you sin against me, you will no longer be perfect, due to sin, and death is the penalty".
Some chose to follow God's path, some chose follow their own.

Jesus proved the fault does not lie with God. He maintained perfect integrity to God, in a world full of sin, under scrutiny none of us could endure. THAT MEANS WHAT GOD INTENDED TO HAPPEN FOR PERFECT BEINGS CAN HAPPEN IF THEY CHOOSE IT! AND THAT MEANS FREE WILL IS THE ONLY ANSWER. AND THAT MEANS GOD DID NOT CREATE THIS SITUATION, THE BEINGS WITH FREE WILL DID.

Ever thought that your philosophical viewpoint on this matter, hinders your common sense?

Agree to disagree.





Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.

Exactly! God doesn't exist because this will not happen. Give me indisputable proof that this will happen. You can't = God imperfect = God does not exist.
If you are paying attention, then you would see this prophecy is two fold. First, the Good news of the Kingdom has to be preached throughout the entire world, as a WITNESS to all nations.

Jehovah said this once,

Isaiah 43:7everyone that is called by my name and that I have created for my own glory, that I have formed, yes, that I have made.?

10 ?YOU are my witnesses,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I?I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.?


Just so happens that in the worst time in human history, there is a group of people preaching throughout the entire world, something called the "Good news of Jehovah's Kingdom" and they just happen to go by the name, Jehovah's witness.



Everything that Jesus described in mat 24, you have seen happening in your lifetime. keep your eyes closed to that fact if you wish, does not mean the world is not crumbling around you. The Good news about jehovah's Kingdom is being preached, only thing left, is the end of Satan's reign as ruler of the world. If the A part of this prophecy happened, why would you doubt the B part will?



Hmm.




Again, he saw Satan would do these things yet he still created him. A perfect being that can see into the future creating something that he didn't want. Your answer of another angel taking his place is just a wild guess and doesn't answer the question. Inevitable doesn't apply to a perfect being that can see into the future.
You know, you are assuming that just because he has the ability to see into the future, that he constantly uses it, or used it in Satan's case at all. Who says he did? So you're assumption that he looked into Lucifer's future, and saw he would become Satan, is even wilder than my guess of him seeing the inevitable. I mean, if I had the power to create perfect moral free agents, with free will, I'm not sure I would wanna fast forward to see what they will do, upon creating them. But clearly he had a purpose for them, and a plan of action if one deviated. That does not mean he looked into the future, just means he had a plan in case one broke his laws.



To answer your claim about evolution, I'm sorry I can't help you anymore with this. You just don't understand genus vs. species. I've tried to explain this to you but you just don't understand. I've given you several examples of transitional species in both human evolution and other animals. "Kinds" doesn't explain them at all. Besides, those examples, that you now understand as once existing, disprove your religion anyway. They existed over 3 million years ago, which goes against your religion (i.e. life began 6,000 years ago).


Kinds does explain how come they either find monkey remains, or human, without a hint of a tweener. That's because one set of bones belongs to one kind, and the other to it's kind. Pretty simple.

And I can't take imaginary drawings of what a homo erectus looks like according to an imperfect man's ideals of what his face would be, no more serious than I can engage in whether Jesus was black or white. We simply can only imagine. The only thing that matters is whether it is tangible. and the remains, that they have found either primate bones, or bones of man, that differ from modern man, but still a man, none the less.

Lastly, you are putting a lot of faith in imperfect science. If you think that science can create something, or have tangible data to date back 6 mil. years, so be it. I'll stick with the 6 thousand years or so of human history that can actually be proven to have existed without the use of carbon dating.
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
LOL... Ok. Last time on this. Pretty easy. If at one time, all were perfect, that means the creator cannot be imperfect. He created perfect beings, that can choose to either remain perfect, and live, or imperfect and die. That is why there is no other answer but free will.

God says "you are now perfect, and have free will. If you obey my laws, you will remain in my love,and perfect, and keep living. If you sin against me, you will no longer be perfect, due to sin, and death is the penalty".
Some chose to follow God's path, some chose follow their own.

Jesus proved the fault does not lie with God. He maintained perfect integrity to God, in a world full of sin, under scrutiny none of us could endure. THAT MEANS WHAT GOD INTENDED TO HAPPEN FOR PERFECT BEINGS CAN HAPPEN IF THEY CHOOSE IT! AND THAT MEANS FREE WILL IS THE ONLY ANSWER. AND THAT MEANS GOD DID NOT CREATE THIS SITUATION, THE BEINGS WITH FREE WILL DID.


Free will does not answer the question...again. It answers why we're not perfect but it doesn't answer the perfect being seeing into the future part and why he would create an evil angel. A perfect being that can see into the future would have known the results ahead of time and would not have created an evil angel to ruin his plans of humans choosing perfect lives. If he did not create Satan, we would still have free will and be living perfect lives because it was the talking snake (Satan) that convinced Adam and Eve to sin. They weren't sinning before and there would have been no reason to sin if it weren't for Satan. So therefore, God did create this situation by creating Satan and knowing ahead of time that Satan would be the one causing us to choose sin. I believe the legal term for that is called entrapment and does not coincide with actions of a perfect being.

Ever thought that your philosophical viewpoint on this matter, hinders your common sense?

This has to be the most ironic statement you've made to date. Because there is nothing that you believe that follows any sort of common sense or pattern of logic.

You believe that:

1.) All of the scientific knowledge we've gained over the last two centuries is wrong. And the millions upon millions of samples and data are wrong.

2.) Scientists all over the world have created some massive worldwide conspiracy to make it seem like your religion is false.

3.) Everyone is being tricked by an invisible evil angel that for some reason was created by a perfect, all-knowing being that can see into the future. And this perfect being that can see into the future wanted us to live perfect lives in peace and harmony but knew that by creating the invisible evil angel we wouldn't live in peace and harmony.

4.) All life on earth began at about the time of the agricultural revolution.

5.) Impossible stories (i.e. Adam and Eve and Noah's Arc). I've shown you multiple times these stories are impossible. Two individuals of a complex species cannot sustain a viable population through sexual reproduction. It is impossible. What part of impossible do you not understand?

Let's see. You believe in impossible stories, massive worldwide conspiracies and non sequitur logic without a shred of physical evidence or proof.

Ever thought that your overwhelming desire to feel special hinders your common sense? That, and your fear of being shunned by your family and friends.

If you are paying attention, then you would see this prophecy is two fold. First, the Good news of the Kingdom has to be preached throughout the entire world, as a WITNESS to all nations.

Jehovah said this once,

Isaiah 43:7everyone that is called by my name and that I have created for my own glory, that I have formed, yes, that I have made.’

10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”


Just so happens that in the worst time in human history, there is a group of people preaching throughout the entire world, something called the "Good news of Jehovah's Kingdom" and they just happen to go by the name, Jehovah's witness.



Everything that Jesus described in mat 24, you have seen happening in your lifetime. keep your eyes closed to that fact if you wish, does not mean the world is not crumbling around you. The Good news about jehovah's Kingdom is being preached, only thing left, is the end of Satan's reign as ruler of the world. If the A part of this prophecy happened, why would you doubt the B part will?



Hmm.

You need to take a history lesson. I read Matthew 24 entirely and there is nothing that is unique to current times. In fact, everything that is mentioned in Mat 24 has been happening since the dawn of civilzation. It was happening before Mat 24 was written, it was happening when Mat 24 was written and it has been happening ever since. It's a part of human society.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am certain those prophecies will never happen. I am so certain, I am willing to wager my entire life's savings. Everything I own. Heck, I'm even willing to wager my family's next generation of savings to make sure the next 100 years are covered. Are you? I'll even contact lawyers to draw up a contract. We can meet in a neutral location and sign it. In 100 years (or whatever date you prefer) I wager everything my and my offspring's families have accumulated, that God will not have brought the end of the world by that time. What do you say?

And do you really think that because the word "witness" is mentioned in Mat 24 and you are part of a group created less than 100 years ago with the name "witnesses" in it, is of some sort of cosmological significance? Come on man. You're smarter than that.

You know, you are assuming that just because he has the ability to see into the future, that he constantly uses it, or used it in Satan's case at all. Who says he did? So you're assumption that he looked into Lucifer's future, and saw he would become Satan, is even wilder than my guess of him seeing the inevitable. I mean, if I had the power to create perfect moral free agents, with free will, I'm not sure I would wanna fast forward to see what they will do, upon creating them. But clearly he had a purpose for them, and a plan of action if one deviated. That does not mean he looked into the future, just means he had a plan in case one broke his laws.

Another wild guess that doesn't answer the question or follow any common sense or logic. So, in the case of his most precious creation's (humans) fate, he chooses to not use his special powers to see into their future, or Satans (our fates are linked it seems). That, my friend, is a perfect being making a mistake.

Kinds does explain how come they either find monkey remains, or human, without a hint of a tweener. That's because one set of bones belongs to one kind, and the other to it's kind. Pretty simple.

And I can't take imaginary drawings of what a homo erectus looks like according to an imperfect man's ideals of what his face would be, no more serious than I can engage in whether Jesus was black or white. We simply can only imagine. The only thing that matters is whether it is tangible. and the remains, that they have found either primate bones, or bones of man, that differ from modern man, but still a man, none the less.

Lastly, you are putting a lot of faith in imperfect science. If you think that science can create something, or have tangible data to date back 6 mil. years, so be it. I'll stick with the 6 thousand years or so of human history that can actually be proven to have existed without the use of carbon dating.

The multitude of examples of transitional species that I have given you are examples of tweeners. Scientists have not just classified them as human or monkey. I don't know why you continue to say this. Humans are Homo sapiens. None of those examples are Homo sapiens. And the term "kinds" does not refer to different species. It was meant as a seperation between beast and man. I think that's pretty obvious. Plus, you never answered how a perfect being that could see into the future wouldn't know that we domesticated animals, not God giving us dogs, cows, etc.

And, they are not just imaginary drawings anymore. It is a well developed science now. Scanning the skulls into 3-d computer models helps develop the models of these extinct creature's appearence. Just looking at the skulls, and the structure of the skeletons, you can tell they were not human or ape. And the millions upon millions of samples that have been tested that show life beginning long before 6,000 years ago are not all mistakes. I'm sorry. But you are wrong. And didn't it ever occur to you that if all of the species that have gone extinct, combined with all of the species that are living today, were all living at the same place at the same time (i.e. beginning of creation), that there wouldn't be any room on the planet? There are millions more species that have gone extinct than there are currently living on the planet today.

And lastly, I don't understand why you continue to say scientists just make stuff up without evidence. Being a scientist myself, I know the scrutiny involved. Scientists are an extremely skeptical bunch. It's their nature. They don't just accept something without overwhelming data and evidence to support it.
 
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OGKnickfan

Enlightened
In response to all this illegible, boring, pointless, stupid, boring, boring, boring shit, which I refuse to read...


 
Free will does not answer the question...again. It answers why we're not perfect but it doesn't answer the perfect being seeing into the future part and why he would create an evil angel. A perfect being that can see into the future would have known the results ahead of time and would not have created an evil angel to ruin his plans of humans choosing perfect lives.
Who says God looked into the future to see if Lucifer would become Satan? There was no reason for God to do that, because angels lived in heaven eons before the Earth was even inhabitable for life (Job 38:4-7). All angels, Lucifer included, saw him create the earth, so therefore all angels had to be abiding by God's laws, at that time. Choosing to live perfectly, even though they did not have to. This proves, that God did not create Satan, that Lucifer's selfishness, made him Satan.

Secondly, Adam is at fault here, because he did not have to disobey Jehovah, as he was perfect too! He could have done what Jesus did, and that was obey God out of love, and choice.

Why should God be of fault here, when his creations who prove to do what he made them very capable of doing, succeed, while some choose to fail? Even imperfect human being can choose to follow God, how much more so can a perfect being?

So there was no need for God to look ahead, when he set angels and humans up perfectly to succeed. It was the choice to do opposite that set the way things are, in motion. If you are mad at God giving free will, say that. I for one am glad I can choose to love him, can't have without choice, or free will.


If he did not create Satan, we would still have free will and be living perfect lives because it was the talking snake (Satan) that convinced Adam and Eve to sin. They weren't sinning before and there would have been no reason to sin if it weren't for Satan. So therefore, God did create this situation by creating Satan and knowing ahead of time that Satan would be the one causing us to choose sin. I believe the legal term for that is called entrapment and does not coincide with actions of a perfect being.
Two assumptions there. One, that on other angel would try the same argument Satan did, and that God chose to look ahead. And, I might add, that Adam was not convicned by the snake, Eve, however, was. Adam deliberately ate, in spite of knowing he was absolutely in the wrong. Hence, why when he ate, they both noticed they were naked. The Bible says Eve ate first, yet when she brought some to Adam, it does not say she noticed he was naked. So it's very safe to say that God held Adam responsible for sin, because he absolutely knew better. Just like Satan did. They chose to disobey God willingly, even though they did not have to.


This has to be the most ironic statement you've made to date. Because there is nothing that you believe that follows any sort of common sense or pattern of logic.

You believe that:

1.) All of the scientific knowledge we've gained over the last two centuries is wrong. And the millions upon millions of samples and data are wrong.

2.) Scientists all over the world have created some massive worldwide conspiracy to make it seem like your religion is false.

3.) Everyone is being tricked by an invisible evil angel that for some reason was created by a perfect, all-knowing being that can see into the future. And this perfect being that can see into the future wanted us to live perfect lives in peace and harmony but knew that by creating the invisible evil angel we wouldn't live in peace and harmony.

4.) All life on earth began at about the time of the agricultural revolution.

5.) Impossible stories (i.e. Adam and Eve and Noah's Arc). I've shown you multiple times these stories are impossible. Two individuals of a complex species cannot sustain a viable population through sexual reproduction. It is impossible. What part of impossible do you not understand?

Let's see. You believe in impossible stories, massive worldwide conspiracies and non sequitur logic without a shred of physical evidence or proof.

Ever thought that your overwhelming desire to feel special hinders your common sense? That, and your fear of being shunned by your family and friends.
Where do I say that all scientific knowledge is wrong? Where do I say that All scientists are basically out to get religionist's? #3, you're assuming again. You're doing that a lot for a guy who uses so much data in his daily life. Funny thing about #4 is that it's the only true gauge of human life on earth. You don't need to use data, or carbon dating to know there was life on earth 6k ago. But you do need to trust that system if you wanna go beyond that, for some strange reason. Kinda fishy for me is all.

#5, The bible says we die, because of Adam and Eve, they both turned to dust when their time came. Let's see, All other humans after them do the same. Bible says we're imperfect because they sinned, and we all do the same. Have not met a perfect human being yet. Neither has science. Bible says that man will live about 70 years, 80 if mighty, for some strange reason, even in the healthiest of lands, the avg live span is between 70-80 years. Science agrees. Just a couple of examples of things in the Bible that science is in harmony with. Therefore, the Bible cannot be impossible.

And you're wrong, being a witness of Jehovah has the opposite effect on a person. A true Jehovah's witness is out for the benefit of others, before themselves. That is what Striving to be God like means. Jehovah made us out of love for us, not himself. And everything he says is good, is for the benefit of ourselves, not himself. That is why Jesus is such a fine model for mankind, because he was the most selfless man in human history. The lowliest (most humble) of mankind the Bible refers to him. So no, I'm not trying to make myself bigger than I am. Everything I have, know and love is because Jehovah granted it out of his love.

You need to take a history lesson. I read Matthew 24 entirely and there is nothing that is unique to current times. In fact, everything that is mentioned in Mat 24 has been happening since the dawn of civilzation. It was happening before Mat 24 was written, it was happening when Mat 24 was written and it has been happening ever since. It's a part of human society.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am certain those prophecies will never happen. I am so certain, I am willing to wager my entire life's savings. Everything I own. Heck, I'm even willing to wager my family's next generation of savings to make sure the next 100 years are covered. Are you? I'll even contact lawyers to draw up a contract. We can meet in a neutral location and sign it. In 100 years (or whatever date you prefer) I wager everything my and my offspring's families have accumulated, that God will not have brought the end of the world by that time. What do you say?

And do you really think that because the word "witness" is mentioned in Mat 24 and you are part of a group created less than 100 years ago with the name "witnesses" in it, is of some sort of cosmological significance? Come on man. You're smarter than that.
There is a verse for people who think the way you do. 2nd Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: ?Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation?s beginning.?

This verse sums up your belief, that all things continue to happen as they always have in human society. It would be a fair point, except, for some strange reason, the last 100 years has been the worst in all recorded human time. The more advanced man becomes, the more deadly he becomes. We've been harder the last 100 years on our natural resources than any other time in history. More advanced weaponry scares people into fear of the apocolypse. Somehow, with all this money available, people are starving at alarming rates. The world now, fully classifies the last days. But there are other things I could show you that would even further stamp it, but it involves invisible men. We know they don't exist to you. But god prepares his followers for that sorta ridicule, as I just duly noted.

As far as the witness thing is concerned, I absolutely feel that is significant. Because Jehovah's witnesses are the only people giving this witness Jesus spoke about. Therefore, they are like the israelites in Is 43:10 whom Jehovah deemed were his only witnesses, due to their belief in him. If a person says they believe in Jehovah, who will you associate them with? Not the Jews, even though they claim to worship the same God. And you won't associate them withother Christian sects either, because they believe that Jesus is God, something Jesus never endorsed. So therefore, I do take that verse seriously. Because only one group of people carry that very serious message on earth.

The multitude of examples of transitional species that I have given you are examples of tweeners. Scientists have not just classified them as human or monkey. I don't know why you continue to say this. Humans are Homo sapiens. None of those examples are Homo sapiens. And the term "kinds" does not refer to different species. It was meant as a seperation between beast and man. I think that's pretty obvious. Plus, you never answered how a perfect being that could see into the future wouldn't know that we domesticated animals, not God giving us dogs, cows, etc.

And, they are not just imaginary drawings anymore. It is a well developed science now. Scanning the skulls into 3-d computer models helps develop the models of these extinct creature's appearence. Just looking at the skulls, and the structure of the skeletons, you can tell they were not human or ape. And the millions upon millions of samples that have been tested that show life beginning long before 6,000 years ago are not all mistakes. I'm sorry. But you are wrong. And didn't it ever occur to you that if all of the species that have gone extinct, combined with all of the species that are living today, were all living at the same place at the same time (i.e. beginning of creation), that there wouldn't be any room on the planet? There are millions more species that have gone extinct than there are currently living on the planet today.

And lastly, I don't understand why you continue to say scientists just make stuff up without evidence. Being a scientist myself, I know the scrutiny involved. Scientists are an extremely skeptical bunch. It's their nature. They don't just accept something without overwhelming data and evidence to support it.

Now see, I looked up the word Homo. Comes from the latin word meaning Man, correct? So when you say homo Erectus, what you are saying is Erectus is in effect a Kind of man that once existed, correct? And when you say, they are not Homo Sapien, you mean to say, that they are not exactly like MODERN MAN, correct? That is all I have been saying as well. That even though these species are not exactly HOMO SAPIEN ( modern man ) They are Homo (man) of some Kind. This is why most scientist's will argue that chimps and Gorillas don't belong in the homo class. So all these findings of Homo species just agrees with the bible when it says every soul, according to their kinds.

Homo is the genus that includes modern humans and their close relatives. The genus is estimated to be about 2.5 million years old, evolving from Australopithecine ancestors with the appearance of Homo habilis. Appearance of Homo coincides with the first evidence of stone tools (the Oldowan industry), and thus by definition with the beginning of the Lower Paleolithic.
Extant Hominoid family tree


All species except Homo sapiens (modern humans) are extinct. Homo neanderthalensis, traditionally considered the last surviving relative, died out 24,000 years ago while a recent discovery suggests that another species, Homo floresiensis, may have lived as recently as 12,000 years ago.
A minority[citation needed] of zoologists consider that the two species of chimpanzees (usually treated in the genus Pan), and maybe the gorillas (usually treated in the genus Gorilla) should also be included in the genus based on genetic similarities. Most[citation needed] scientists argue that chimpanzees and gorillas have too many anatomical differences between themselves and humans to be part of Homo. Given the large number of morphological similarities exhibited, Homo is closely related to several extinct hominin genera, most notably Kenyanthropus, Paranthropus and Australopithecus. As of 2007[update], no taxon is universally accepted as the origin of the radiation of Homo.
Homo is the genus that includes modern humans and their close relatives. The genus is estimated to be about 2.5 million years old, evolving from Australopithecine ancestors with the appearance of Homo habilis. Appearance of Homo coincides with the first evidence of stone tools (the Oldowan industry), and thus by definition with the beginning of the Lower Paleolithic.
Extant Hominoid family tree


All species except Homo sapiens (modern humans) are extinct. Homo neanderthalensis, traditionally considered the last surviving relative, died out 24,000 years ago while a recent discovery suggests that another species, Homo floresiensis, may have lived as recently as 12,000 years ago.
A minority[citation needed] of zoologists consider that the two species of chimpanzees (usually treated in the genus Pan), and maybe the gorillas (usually treated in the genus Gorilla) should also be included in the genus based on genetic similarities. Most[citation needed] scientists argue that chimpanzees and gorillas have too many anatomical differences between themselves and humans to be part of Homo. Given the large number of morphological similarities exhibited, Homo is closely related to several extinct hominin genera, most notably Kenyanthropus, Paranthropus and Australopithecus. As of 2007[update], no taxon is universally accepted as the origin of the radiation of Homo.
 

KING~POETIQ

The One and Only
I was trying to actually get into the topic that you guys were discussing. About how lucifer's selfishness made him become satan and all the other topics. But it seems like y'all are writing scriptures. Are the graphs necessary? You guys should pair up and write your own bible. Just joking though.


I'm guessing the thread topic is irrelevant by now, huh?
 
I was trying to actually get into the topic that you guys were discussing. About how lucifer's selfishness made him become satan and all the other topics. But it seems like y'all are writing scriptures. Are the graphs necessary? You guys should pair up and write your own bible. Just joking though.


I'm guessing the thread topic is irrelevant by now, huh?

You don't need to read it all to find where Lucifer's selfishness comes into play :)

The Graph, I tried to leave out, but it posted anyways. I figure those who it matters to will read, and those it does not, won't.

Anything you wanna know of, biblically speaking, I would be glad to answer your questions, personally.
 

KING~POETIQ

The One and Only
I appreciate the gesture, Knicks4lyfe. Cause ultimately, I may learn something new. But before I ask my question, tell me, what are your qualifications? You know, are you a priest, do you teach religion, go to church a lot, etc?
 
I appreciate the gesture, Knicks4lyfe. Cause ultimately, I may learn something new. But before I ask my question, tell me, what are your qualifications? You know, are you a priest, do you teach religion, go to church a lot, etc?

Not a priest, I don't teach religion, I don't attend Church at all. But I am a Jehovah's witness, I study the bible a lot, and am qualified to teach from the bible.

I'll have you know for a fact that, some of the bibles best teachers were viewed as unlettered, or in our terms, unlearned, or unschooled. So just because you have a degree in theology, does not mean you understand the bible any better. Peter was a lowly fisherman.

So no, Jehovah's witnesses do not have degrees in theology, or attend fancy bible schools, but if you ask anyone if they know the bible, be hard pressed to get a no. Even for those who disagree with us.

This is what I normally tell anyone interested in listening. Compare what we show you about the bible to what you know, or have heard from other Christian faiths. There is not one thing JW's believe, that cannot fully be backed, without a doubt, by the bible. And that should be every Christian's back bone.
 

KING~POETIQ

The One and Only
Not a priest, I don't teach religion, I don't attend Church at all. But I am a Jehovah's witness, I study the bible a lot, and am qualified to teach from the bible.

I'll have you know for a fact that, some of the bibles best teachers were viewed as unlettered, or in our terms, unlearned, or unschooled. So just because you have a degree in theology, does not mean you understand the bible any better. Peter was a lowly fisherman.

So no, Jehovah's witnesses do not have degrees in theology, or attend fancy bible schools, but if you ask anyone if they know the bible, be hard pressed to get a no. Even for those who disagree with us.

This is what I normally tell anyone interested in listening. Compare what we show you about the bible to what you know, or have heard from other Christian faiths. There is not one thing JW's believe, that cannot fully be backed, without a doubt, by the bible. And that should be every Christian's back bone.

Ok, fair enough. I did ask you this because I wanted to know the point of view that you're going to be coming from. Your answer to my question will be your "WORDS OF WISDOM" because you have proven to have knowledge in the subject.


Now, even though the con-con is so fascinating, the question we will discuss is better suited in another thread. So, follow me...
 

Akamu

The King
It's amazing how I create a topic for example: based on an apple, then people on here wanna start talking about rabbit ears and stuff that has nothing to do with what I was addressing.

If you have something to elaborate on do it in another thread, instead of turning into a troll and causing thread inconsistency.
 
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