View Poll Results: Is Marbury the best player on the Celtics?

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  • Starbury >> Magic Johnson

    9 50.00%
  • Rondo lost

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  • Garnott is old

    1 5.56%
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    6 33.33%
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Thread: I feel bad for Marbury, having to carry the Celtics

  1. #91
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    Starbury 6th man of THE PLAYOFFS! hehehe

  2. #92
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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Jackson is a sell out fake Dominican b*tch who was the worst defensive PG in Knicks history...he had a good rookie season but went down hill from there, he never showed any 3pt range for the Knicks or atleast average defense. Passing, he's top 5 of all time. He couldn't carry a depleted Knicks team and take them to the playoffs the way Steph did, that what seperates the two; role player vs all star talent.
    Knicks had a good squad before Jackson. Bernard King was the Carmelo of the league back thing, unstoppable scoring SF, along with the dominant Patrick Ewing, and two potential 20 ppg scorers in Gerald Wilkins and Bill Cartwright, along with a solid bench of Trent Tucker, Gerald Henderson and Kenny Walker.
    Marbury came to one of the ****tiest teams in the league and lead them to the playoffs. The rest after that isn't really Steph's fault, since all the responsibilty lies on Isiah.

    Marbury's 22 ppg and 9 assist season is the greatest since Frazier.

    Charlie Ward lost his job more than a Nuyorican from Fordham road...dudes need to stop ****ing gloryizing Charlie Ward like he was a God, because all he ever was: A more talented Chris Duhon.

    Its understandable you don't like Marbury, but don't speak some nonsense...

    Kidd was the best PPG in the game...did I say Marbury > Kidd? No, so you're just wasting your time writing about nothing

    Speaking of Suck Jackson, I wish we kept Rod Strickland...****, we did make good draft picks, just never kept them.
    Rod Strickland could of been the missing piece to a potential championship.
    Bernard King? He missed the ENTIRE 85-86 season!!! Then played like 7-8 games in the next as far as I know? He played well, but the knicks released him and the Wizards gained a star. Stupid.

    Ewing's first 2 seasons, the Knicks were one of the worst teams in the east. Haven't you watched "Patrick Ewing Standing Tall"?

    Jackson was the ultimate addition for success. His first 4 seasons were really productive, his second being the most impressive stats wise.

    Tucker, Henderson and Walker (wtf?) were all scrubs.

    And Bill Cartwight a potential 20ppg scorer? Ludicrous! Michael Jordan himself complained out right about his acquisition for Oakley in the 89-90 NY-Chicago trade. Bill Cartwright had the 2nd worst shot in history behind Marion who is actually reasonably accurate.

    Marbury lead a crap team in an Eastern Conference that's never been more pathetic than it was the year the Knicks were swept by NJ.

    As far as the Kidd comment, that was merely a comparison between both Marbury & Jackson taking on superior talent at the point (Though in Jackson's case winning). Nothing more.

    Charlie Ward was the great Tim Hardaway's worst nightmare defensively and orchestrated memorable perimeter and on ball defense. He was extremely calculated & every coach at the Knicks had the utmost faith in him at the point. That's not a glorification, it's a fact.

    Marbury, has been each of his teams management's worst nightmares.

    As far as Knicks point guards go:

    Jackson, Ward>>>>>>>>Marbury. Not even close.

    As far as those acquired by NY to be "the face of the franchise":

    Everyone>>>>>>>>Marbury--------pre & post Ewing

    Rod Strickland btw was evicted for much the same reasons as Marbury at each stop. He was a bitch.

  3. #93
    Veteran GetRealistic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    Bernard King? He missed the ENTIRE 85-86 season!!! Then played like 7-8 games in the next as far as I know? He played well, but the knicks released him and the Wizards gained a star. Stupid.

    Ewing's first 2 seasons, the Knicks were one of the worst teams in the east. Haven't you watched "Patrick Ewing Standing Tall"?

    Jackson was the ultimate addition for success. His first 4 seasons were really productive, his second being the most impressive stats wise.

    Tucker, Henderson and Walker (wtf?) were all scrubs.

    And Bill Cartwight a potential 20ppg scorer? Ludicrous! Michael Jordan himself complained out right about his acquisition for Oakley in the 89-90 NY-Chicago trade. Bill Cartwright had the 2nd worst shot in history behind Marion who is actually reasonably accurate.

    Marbury lead a crap team in an Eastern Conference that's never been more pathetic than it was the year the Knicks were swept by NJ.

    As far as the Kidd comment, that was merely a comparison between both Marbury & Jackson taking on superior talent at the point (Though in Jackson's case winning). Nothing more.

    Charlie Ward was the great Tim Hardaway's worst nightmare defensively and orchestrated memorable perimeter and on ball defense. He was extremely calculated & every coach at the Knicks had the utmost faith in him at the point. That's not a glorification, it's a fact.

    Marbury, has been each of his teams management's worst nightmares.

    As far as Knicks point guards go:

    Jackson, Ward>>>>>>>>Marbury. Not even close.

    As far as those acquired by NY to be "the face of the franchise":

    Everyone>>>>>>>>Marbury--------pre & post Ewing

    Rod Strickland btw was evicted for much the same reasons as Marbury at each stop. He was a bitch.

    Well said. Great post.

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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    Bernard King? He missed the ENTIRE 85-86 season!!! Then played like 7-8 games in the next as far as I know? He played well, but the knicks released him and the Wizards gained a star. Stupid.

    Ewing's first 2 seasons, the Knicks were one of the worst teams in the east. Haven't you watched "Patrick Ewing Standing Tall"?

    Jackson was the ultimate addition for success. His first 4 seasons were really productive, his second being the most impressive stats wise.

    Tucker, Henderson and Walker (wtf?) were all scrubs.

    And Bill Cartwight a potential 20ppg scorer? Ludicrous! Michael Jordan himself complained out right about his acquisition for Oakley in the 89-90 NY-Chicago trade. Bill Cartwright had the 2nd worst shot in history behind Marion who is actually reasonably accurate.

    Marbury lead a crap team in an Eastern Conference that's never been more pathetic than it was the year the Knicks were swept by NJ.

    As far as the Kidd comment, that was merely a comparison between both Marbury & Jackson taking on superior talent at the point (Though in Jackson's case winning). Nothing more.

    Charlie Ward was the great Tim Hardaway's worst nightmare defensively and orchestrated memorable perimeter and on ball defense. He was extremely calculated & every coach at the Knicks had the utmost faith in him at the point. That's not a glorification, it's a fact.

    Marbury, has been each of his teams management's worst nightmares.

    As far as Knicks point guards go:

    Jackson, Ward>>>>>>>>Marbury. Not even close.

    As far as those acquired by NY to be "the face of the franchise":

    Everyone>>>>>>>>Marbury--------pre & post Ewing

    Rod Strickland btw was evicted for much the same reasons as Marbury at each stop. He was a bitch.
    I guess Crazy 8's isn't so crazy after all cause he's keepin' it way too real. Great post!!!!

  5. #95
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    King actually played 6...get your stats correct next time.

    Jackon's first four season:
    Points/Assist
    13/10
    16/8
    9/7
    8/6

    Thats not "really productive".
    Do you know how to use words?

    Thats called a declining career.
    No progression.
    Lack of efficiency.
    Career role player/journey man. The man played for 7 teams...he never was a key addition to ****.

    What makes Jackson "ultimate", but Ewing?

    Knicks had success much success after Jackson's exit.
    Winning 60 games. and going to the Eastern Conference Finals in 6 games against The Chicago Jordans.

    The previous season?
    Only Semifinals under the "ultimate" Jackson.

    Previous to that in 90-91?
    Lost NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-0) versus Chicago Bulls.


    So where did Jackson come into all this "ultimate winning" process you made up? Seems like you caught yourself in a bubble of stupidity.

    Oh btw, Jackson in his first two seasons led the Knicks to two series lost in the semifinals.

    Damn, so you're the new fool of the forum now?

    Tucker, Henderson and Walker = scrubs now? With no explaination...aahhh, you're so insightful here.

    Let me give you a hand, pendejo.

    Tucker = one of the best 3pt shooters in Knicks history, good for 10 points off the bench, contributed for the Knicks throughout the 80's...spent more seasons (almost ten) as a Knick than Jackson did in his career. He was a nice piece, I'm not going to be a f*cking moron like you and title Tucker as "ultimate" or anything, he was just a nice guy to have off the bench. No scrub scores 10 points a game and shoots 40%. Certinely you can't.

    Kenny Walker/Henderson = another solid bench guy for 10 point, being on the bench doesn't make you a scrub, especially if you're coming off the bench for 10ppg

    Again, I feel like this is the first time in your life you're using words...because you've been all f*cked up here.

    You said Bill Cartwright being a 20 ppg scorer was "ludacris" when he averaged in the 20 ppg range from 1980-1988 and then went down to the 12-15 ppg range from 1989 to 1992, thus age decline happen. Don't you know anything about 80's basketball? No one compares to the Oak, but you're dumbass saying a 20 ppg scorer being a 20 ppg scorer is ludacris is whats killing you here buddy.

    "Bill Cartwright had the 2nd worst shot in history"

    Again, you're ignorant punk self never seems to stop failing after each trial. You're really hopeless of learning or even improving...theres no progression in your text...you just seem to get worse.

    Bill Cartwright was 7"1 man, 7 footers are known to for not being able to shoot.

    But, Cartwright was a .771 FT shooter, thats actually above average for most players. So once again, enjoy your fail.

    Oh wow man, you really got this studied well...
    so would you know....the depleted/injured newly built Knicks lead by Starbury from lottery bound into the playoffs got swept by the best team in the East that year....that is so horrofic in Marbury's resume. I'm sure the speedy defensive lock down player in Marky Jackson could do much more with a roster of Micheal Doleac, Frank Williams, Shandon Anderson, with the amazing 2nd scoring option in Tim Thomas and Kurt Thomas's 18ft jumper off the pick and pop.

    O Mark Jacksn where art thou in the season of Marbury horror? Shooting 28% from 3pt and losing minutes to Carlos Arroyo as Stockon's back up in Salt Lake City. Lame.

    Ward was no doubt a defenisve wizard, but could not pick up a team of soon to retire NBA players and lead them into the playoffs. Ward was just a solid role on a great team, where as Marbury was an elite team on a bad team. Thats the difference. Thats what seperates them and will never chance. You put Charlie Ward on the 2002-03 Knicks, and you get one of the worst teams in the NBA. Charlie Ward wasn't efficient enough to play 35 minutes either, he always been inconsistant and lost minutes or even his job to the back up.


    Oh btw, this crush this debate into pieces, even though you probably gave up by the first paragraph, this ends the Ward vs Marbury debate.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Head to Head, Career

    Ward vs Marbury

    Ward
    7.1 ppg
    43% FG
    4.2 assist
    2 rebs
    1.2 stl

    Marbury
    22 ppg
    41% FG
    8.4 assit
    4.1 steal
    1.6 stl


    Marbury vs Jackson

    Jackson
    7.9 ppg
    49% FG
    7.1 assist

    Marbury
    20 ppg
    44% FG
    9.2 assist


    Obviously, its no contest...Marbury is the more superior and dominant player, it shouldn't even be mentioned.

    Charlie Ward's contributions are Chris Duhon quality. Marbury in the 2002-03 season was Frazier'eque.


    The best way to finalize this termination of "crazy 8s" is to post a Marbury article that answers and shuts down all his critics.





    By: Charles Modiano
    RealGM.com Writer
    March 1, 2009 1:06 PM


    “Cartoon Character”

    “King of Fools”

    “He is a loser”.

    These were some of the early media descriptions of Stephon Marbury after he parted ways with the Knicks to join the Celtics. If Marbury is a “cartoon character”, we can thank our sports media for drawing the daily comic strip. For those innocent souls who have so mistakenly bought into the cartoon journalism, then... "You Don't Know Marbury"!

    If he is also a “loser”, we can thank a misleading media once again [1]. We are told how his former teams improved “after he left”, but not that those overall rosters also improved [2]. Sure, after two playoff appearances with Minnesota, Marbury would play on many losing teams. But how often have we read how those same rosters fared without Marbury?

    41% - winning % of his games after leaving Minnesota 29% - winning % (62-152) of those teams in his absence [3].


    Translation: Marbury has played on some god-awful teams!…

    Stephon Xavier Marbury is the most mismanaged, miscoached, and misunderstood Knick talent that I have ever seen [4].

    Please allow Bill Simmons to warm us up:

    “As a basketball fan, I can't fathom why the Clippers would sign Baron [Davis] then bog him down in a half-court offense. It's like hiring Simon Cowell to judge a reality show then preventing him from being mean.” – Bill Simmons

    As a basketball fan, I know exactly how you feel Bill. And welcome to Marbury-land Baron, and sorry about your shooting drop from 43% to 36%. Maybe one day coach Dunleavy will allow you to call your own plays again like Nellie once did. Maybe he will also break up that clogged Clipper frontcourt next year. Or maybe your next four years will be just like Steph’s last four. Let’s hope not…

    Much has been written about Marbury’s feuds with past coaches, and everyone has an opinion [4]. However, this analysis is strictly X’s and O’s. It’s time for some real basketball questions:

    1) Why would you start line-ups that minimize or eliminate the exceptional skills of your best player?

    2) How can you justify taking the ball out of the hands of your best point guard?

    3) How on mother earth does an elite “penetrate-and-dish” point guard go his entire career without playing alongside top 3-point shooters?… or even just good ones?

    Before answering these questions let’s first revisit our main Knick characters. No, not current Knick coach Mike D’Antoni. His inexplicable benching of Marbury was simply the culmination of coaching that Larry Brown started and Isiah Thomas perfected. Brown and Thomas were once former all-star point-guards in the ABA and NBA. Instead of coaching Stephon according to his strengths, each coached him to THEIR strengths. The only Knick coach that ever grasped Marbury’s exceptional skills was that other former all-star point guard: Lenny Wilkens.


    Stephon and His Knick Coaches


    Stephon: Marbury’s success begins with his ability to penetrate, draw double-teams, score, or find the open man on a crisp kick out. He is not a “pure point guard” in the mold of Jason Kidd or Steve Nash, but resembles that third all-star PG on that 1996 Suns team: Kevin Johnson. Just like KJ, Marbury could destroy his man off the dribble; use his strength; finish strong; pass; get to the line; run the fast break well; and excel at running tightly executed pick-and-rolls, and pick-and-pops. This type of point-guard is usually maximized with one strong low-post threat, floor-spacing shooters (more than slashers), and two “dirty-work” guys who don’t need the ball. While KJ would consistently have players that complemented his strengths [5]. Marbury’s post-Minnesota career would be the exact opposite.

    Lenny – Right Coach, Wrong Talent: All-time wins leader Wilkens was hired in January 2004 just days after trading for Marbury. At the time GM Isiah said Lenny was “the perfect person” to coach Stephon, and he was right. Prior to Steph’s arrival, this old slow Knicks team was 14 -21, and its only top player (Allan Houston) had bum knees and a pending retirement. Enter instant turnaround. Marbury and Wilkens would lead the team to a 25 – 22 finish and into the playoffs while averaging 20 points and 9.3 assists. The following year, Stephon would average 22 points and 8.1 assists with an efficient 46% shooting. Because the team won only 33 games, Marbury’s greatest career season went unnoticed on a squad that had no business winning 23. With the exception of fast breaks, Wilkens would harness all of Marbury’s strengths. However, Isiah would fire him at midseason, leaving him with a 40-41 record as a Knicks coach (succeeded by Herb Williams).

    Larry – Young Talent, Wrong Coach:
    Brown arrived to NYC with a special media moniker never afforded to Wilkens: “Hall-of-Fame Coach”. The shield title – repeated ad nauseum – had a distinct purpose: “Larry Brown was always right.” Just check the resume. Unlike Wilkens, Pat Riley, and other great coaches, Brown is a great coach like Jack Nicholson is a great actor – he only plays one role. Seasoned veterans? Brown might land a championship. Young players? Brown might blow an Olympic gold medal [6]. Brown decided to forget coaching that season in favor of his mantra to “play the right way” – even if that way meant losing. “Play the right way” was much more than a phrase -- it was a stand. It symbolized a basketball, generational, and racial “culture war” where everyone took a side. Where Wilkens saw amazing talent worth harnessing, Brown saw a point guard who did not play the position “the right way”. So Brown basically tried to turn him into Eric Snow. An often mechanical looking Marbury would post career low stats, and Brown would produce a 23-59 record.

    Isiah – Best Talent, Wrong Coach:
    After inheriting possibly the worst roster in NBA history (no hyperbole), Isiah received brutally unfair criticism for his tenure as Knicks GM. That criticism should have been reserved for Isiah the coach. His famous benching of Marbury would overshadow his dysfunctional starting line-ups, head-scratching substitution patterns, and few set plays beyond “can Jamal or Nate take his man off the dribble?”. After an adequate first year (33-49) that involved key injuries, the second year was like watching ball at Rucker Park – except with fewer team assists. Finishing where Larry started, Thomas would render Marbury useless.


    CRIME #1: LINE-UP LUNACY - From 42 to 45


    Lenny: The 2004 turnaround was a remarkable feat considering that year’s most common starting line-up was 1) Marbury; 2) Shandon Anderson; 3) Tim Thomas; 4) Kurt Thomas; 5) Nazr Mohammed. While most were usually bench players for other teams, together with Marbury, the Thomas-Thomas-Mohammed frontline was 30-31 over two seasons. Tim could still help spread the floor, Kurt brought gritty defense and his best season of rebounding, and Nazr would play his finest ball in his career. Marbury was particularly efficient at running 15-foot “pick and pops” with teammates like Kurt, Nazr, and Keith Van Horn (before Nazr). He even made Michael Doleac look good. Was this frontline talented? No. Good floor balance? Yes. The entire frontline would soon be traded traded for long-term benefit [7].

    Larry: Mad scientist Brown would: start a front-line of shot vets over promising youngsters; give no steady minute patterns; and set an NBA record with 42 line-ups. That year’s lone bright spot brought a 6-game winning streak where Marbury started alongside rookies Nate Robinson and David Lee. The latter two would soon find themselves into Brown’s infamous rookie doghouse, out of the starting line-up, and receiving 30 or three minutes on any given night. Lee, in particular, would be underutilized by both Brown and Thomas. That year, Marbury’s injuries would leave the Knicks 5-17 without him. If Larry could never make up his mind about line-ups, Isiah could never change his.

    Isiah: Starting Marbury alongside a 5-scorer line-up is absurd. Starting Eddy Curry and Zach Randolph together is absurd. Starting a can’t-shoot-unrecovered-from-surgery Q Richardson is absurd. Doing all of the above requires a new word… Don’t spread the floor. Check. Clog up the middle. Check. Eliminate point-guard penetration. Check. Eliminate ball movement. Check. Duplicate defensive liabilities. Check. Blame it all on your point guard. Check… Despite plenty of better fits on the bench, Isiah would not break Eddy-Zach-Q frontline for four months! The Knicks would get crushed every first quarter, but magically play teams even in the 2nd quarter (check the stats). If the number 42 is Brown’s Knick coaching legacy, Isiah’s should be 45: the amount of games that Eddy-Zach-Q started together.

    Stephon: Eddy-Zach joined the Marbury-Steve Francis backcourt as Isiah’s second disastrous starting pair. Injuries had robbed Francis of his once great athleticism, but not his head-down-ball-stopping style. In 2006 the Knicks rolled out to a 7-14 record before Isiah decided to bench Francis. For the next 41 games or half-a-season Marbury and Eddy Curry would lead the Knicks to a 21-19 record before injuries to Lee, Jamal, and Q would end their playoff hopes (and bring return of Francis as starter). The young team was running, exciting, and even losing heart breakers with passion. The media would often credit Marbury’s suddenly new “leadership”, or claim that the December 2006 fight with Denver “brought the team together”. The truth? A simple line-up change. In 2005-2006:

    Marbury with Francis: 12 points on 38% shooting

    Marbury w/o Francis: 18 points on 44% shooting


    During this same time, Eddy Curry’s dominance would also rise. Marbury – starving for an inside presence since his Suns playoff year with rookie Amare Stoudemire was more than happy to play second-fiddle. By that summer Stephon would say:

    “This is Eddy Curry's team, not Steph's team. This is Eddy Curry's team, and we all have to understand that.”


    CRIME #2:
    COACHING CRAZINESS - Jamal is Not A Point Guard!

    By 2007-2008, it was neither Eddy nor Steph’s team – it was Jamal’s team. Crawford’s ankle-breaking crossover, and monthly career game scoring outbursts often worked to seduce fans into thinking one-night-stands might ever become true love. Coupled with his mature off court demeanor and poised interviews, it also seemed to work on his coaches. It seemed as if one play was called in any close game: Jamal-take-man-off-dribble-from-top-of-key. The play calling became so ludicrous that one game the Knicks would lose in overtime as Crawford missed his final 12 shots including the final three taken in regulation. Such an instance is symbolic of both Isiah’s and Larry’s coaching of Crawford. There was none.

    Worst of all, both coaches also decided that Marbury share ball-handling duties with Jamal as was once done with Francis. Insanity… Let’s start here.

    Marbury Assists Per Game:

    9.0 - under Lenny

    6.4 - under Larry

    5.3 - under Isiah


    In Stephon’s first two years under Lenny, the Knicks averaged more than 20 assists per game despite inferior team talent. Under Larry (17.9) and Isiah (18.7) the Knicks were dead last in NBA assists. Transferring partial point-guard duties did not just hurt Stephon – it hurt the Knicks.


    Having Jamal bring the ball up meant less team assists, less ball movement, less-fatigued opponents, and less wins. On the plus side, Jamal did throw nice alley-oops to Curry. On the down side, Jamal is a low percentage shooter, is a poor finisher near the rim, does not get to the line much, and can barely run the pick-and-roll. Most importantly, he doesn’t draw double-teams on his drives. Jamal can only break down his man, but Marbury can break down team defenses.

    By last year, the combination of crazy line-ups, reduced ball-handling, and even the abandonment of two-man pick plays [8] would make Marbury more liability than asset. The coaching of Thomas and Brown was so perplexing that fan theories of sabotage were just as likely as coach incompetence. The most benign explanation just might be this: Marbury as a ball dominating point guard offended Brown’s “pure-point-guard” sensibilities, and Isiah could never accept that the double-point backcourt just might fail if the other guy isn’t named Joe Dumars.

    CRIME #3: MANAGEMENT MANGLING - Where are the 3-Point Shooters?

    In sports it’s like peanut butter and jelly. Pair a great quarterback with a great wide-receiver (sorry Donovan); get a great hitter some back-up protection (sorry Barry), and get an elite “drive-and-dish” point guard some 3-point shooters.

    With a one year exception of Kerry Kittles (Nets), Marbury never started alongside another sharp-shooting guard. Beyond one season, his best two 3-point shooters were forwards Keith Van Horn (Nets), and Shawn Marion (Suns) – neither of whom could shoot prior to his arrival. In his two full seasons with Stephon, Marion would shoot 39% from behind the arc, but never higher than 34% in any other season despite playing with both Kidd and Nash.

    The minute he arrived to the Knicks, Marbury’s drives to the hoop had amazing results. Spreading the floor widened Marbury’s penetration lanes, and in-turn, his ability to break down defenses aided those shooters right back. Stephon’s kick-outs often began an “around the horn” passing sequence that resulted in no assist, but three points. As a result, every single Knicks long range shooter benefited:

    3-Point Shooting Before and After Marbury Trade (2003-2004 season):

    Allan Houston: 38% to 51%

    Keith Van Horn: 31% to 46%

    Tim Thomas: 36% to 41%

    Shandon Anderson: 24% to 34%


    It is amazing what can happen when a hand is removed from one’s face! Sadly, Houston would only get to play 38 total games with Marbury, and the Knicks would never sign a top long-range shooter after him [9]. That no GM actively and deliberately sought to spread the floor for Marbury is a crime of NBA management.

    Perhaps it was because so few could see through awful rosters, the villainizing journalism, and their own “pure point guard” biases to realize that:

    Stephon makes his teammates better.

    It just has to be the right teammates.


    No, he won’t make Crawford better. Jamal, reliant only on his crossover, will shoot 41% with the Bulls, the Knicks, the Warriors, or the Showtime Lakers. No, he won’t make Randolph better. Zach will get his 20 whether Stephon, Baron, or Mardy Collins throws that entry pass. And he definitely won’t make Steve Francis better… But he made the entire 2004 Knicks much better. During the few glimpses of sensible line-ups, he also made Eddy Curry, Channing Frye, David Lee, and Nate Robinson better. A prime Marbury would not just make the currently constructed Orlando Magic better, but possibly champions. Ditto for a younger Allan Houston coupled with an older Ewing.


    Sorry Larry, there are no “right ways” to play the point, just “right systems”. Says Marbury’s newest coach and former point guard Doc Rivers: “I never thought he was a pure point guard”. Nor does he care, even if Marbury has lost a step.

    This is just how it goes with point guards. High-flyers like Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, and Kenyon Martin will thrive under Jason Kidd – but Josh Howard won’t. Steve Nash goes from a borderline all-star to a borderline Hall-of-Famer -- just by changing his coach. Gary Payton (at any age) goes from an all-star to bum should you reduce him to a spot-up shooter role in a triangle offense. Styles make fights, styles make perceptions, and when misunderstood by media -- styles make villains. But…

    What if Joe Dumars spent his whole career with the Pistons cast that averaged 24 wins in back-to-back seasons from 93-95?

    What if John Stockton was told to be great, but just forget that whole “pick-and-roll” thing?

    What if Baron Davis never gets to runs the break or drive to the hoop again?

    And if a player like Stephon Marbury can reach a .500 plateau with the right system and the wrong talent, what could he have done if equipped with both?

    These are the real questions we should be asking. Even if it might take away from our favorite “cartoon character”.

    Notes:

    [1] Marbury’s rookie season helped bring the Timberwolves a 14-game improvement and first-ever playoff berth, but his departure began the “selfish” label. In New Jersey, a “loser” label was added, but few reminders that he joined a 3-16 squad. His Suns experience would not be defined by the respectable 2003 playoff showing, but their poor start the following injury-plagued year. Despite averaging over eight assists per game, all of the above would contribute to a “Marbury-as-selfish” narrative before playing a single Knick game.

    [2]
    Marbury's old teams were followed by the era’s best two point guards, but few reports that Jason Kidd and Steve Nash also received vastly improved rosters. The Nets did not just receive Kidd, but had Kerry Kittles return from injury, had Kenyon Martin move past rookie year growing pains, and drafted Richard Jefferson. The Suns actually got worse after Marbury left. The following year they signed Nash, had Amare return past his second year injuries, and had a maturing Joe Johnson. By comparing Marbury’s tenure to overhauled rosters, Steve Nash is also loser because his Dallas Mavericks team went to the finals “after he left”.

    [3] The 29% winning percentage takes into account his games missed due to injuries and how his past/new teams fared without him from the two midseason trades. Marbury’s winning totals while playing: New Jersey (66-106), Phoenix (92-105), and New York (113-174). Winning totals in Marbury’s absence: Nets (7-35); Suns (17-32); Knicks (38-85).

    [4] A friend tells me of Marbury’s coaching feuds: “if you get into five car accidents, then you are a bad driver!” This makes sense on the surface, but is overly simplistic. Marbury is not blameless by any stretch, but he is both perpetrator and victim. Firstly, Marbury’s last three coaches (D’Antoni, Thomas, Brown) all have their own share of car accidents (Brown’s license should have been revoke 20 years ago!). More accurately, Marbury is that kid with a past felony on his record and cops know full well that they could treat him any way they choose while receiving immunity. His last three coaches all knowingly took advantage of this power dynamic in initiating unfair treatment while Marbury’s reactions to feeling wronged would often help their cause.

    [5] After trading for KJ in 1988, the Suns soon signed a big man complement in all-star Tom Chambers. KJ would run the pick-and-roll all day and night with Chambers when not driving-and-dishing to sharp-shooters like Hornacek and Eddie Johnson. Those latter two names marked an entire career that featured two long-range marksmen (also Dan Majerle, Danny Ainge, Wesley Person, Rex Chapman, etc) for KJ to spread the floor. In a couple of years, the Suns would sign Charles Barkley and go from a perennial playoff team to legitimate title contenders.

    [6] After winning a championship with the Detroit Pistons , Brown would fail to win the Olympic Gold medal. Most notably, he would leave a young Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony on the bench while Lamar Odom and Richard Jefferson logged heavy minutes.

    [7]
    Seeking youth and athleticism, Isiah soon traded the entire frontline in what eventually netted David Lee, Nate Robinson, Eddy Curry, and Wilson Chandler.

    [8] Isiah virtually abandoned the pick play in favor of one-on-one play by his second year. Gone was Channing Frye’s floor-spacing an occasional pick-and-pops, and in came Zach – the starting line-ups third ball-stopping vacuum. Like Eddy, Zach is only effective for a team as the only low post presence. Marbury was essentially reduced to throwing entry passes – and not very good ones at that.

    [9]
    In Brown and Isiah’s tenure, the best 3-point shooter would be Nate Robinson, but he and Marbury would rarely play together – presumably for defensive reasons. When not bothered by his back injuries, Quentin Richardson is still only an adequate shooter.

  6. #96
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    02-03
    We averaged 92 points per game, but only gave up 93 points per game.(great backcourt defense from Shandon Anderson and Marbury)

    Our line up was
    Marbury
    Houston
    Tiny Tim
    Thomas
    Mutumbo

    We had a deadly back court
    This season Marbury averaged 9.3 assist for the Knicks and about 20 points per game with 3 rebs and 1.3 steals.
    Houston shot 43% from 3pt and averaged almost 19 points per game on 2 two turnovers per game.
    Because of all the injuries was most used line up was
    Marbury
    Anderson
    Tim Thomas
    Kurt Thomas
    Mohammed

    This season we made the PLAYOFFS but fell short to the Nets.
    From NBA.com...
    THE NEW YORK KNICKERBOCKERS marked their 58th season as a charter member of the NBA with a 39-43 (.476) regular season mark. . . Knicks earned their first NBA Playoff berth since 2001, as they finished in third in the Atlantic Division (eight games behind division champion New Jersey) and were seeded seventh in the Eastern Conference.

    CANCEL THAT VACATION. . .AGAIN: After a two-year absence from the post-season tournament, the Knicks advanced to the NBA Playoffs for the first time since 2001, and for the 15th time in the last 17 seasons. . . Knicks made the Playoffs for a club record 14 consecutive seasons, 1988-2001. . . Knicks mathematically clinched a Playoff berth on April 7 (game no. 79) with a 96-82 victory over Chicago at Madison Square Garden, and with Cleveland’s subsequent 92-74 loss at Memphis.

    THE RECORD (39-43): With a two-victory improvement over their 37-45 mark of 2002-03, Knicks joined the Indiana Pacers as the only two Eastern Conference teams who have increased their win totals over each of the last two seasons. Knicks have gone 30-37-39 in the win column in the last three seasons, Pacers have gone 42-48-61 (Detroit just misses joining the group, going 50-50-54 in last three years). . . Knicks were 29-25 following the Dec 22 appointment of Isiah Thomas as president, basketball operations. . . Knicks have recorded three consecutive sub-.500 campaigns for the first time since they finished below .500 for four straight seasons, 1984-85 through 1987-88.


    ON THE LEADER BOARD: Stephon Marbury was the only NBA player to rank among League’s Top 20 in scoring (15th with 20.2 ppg), assists (8.9 apg, second to Jason Kidd's 9.2), steals (15th with 1.59 spg) and assist-to-turnover ratio (tied for 11th with 2.89). Steph led the NBA in total assists (719). . . Dikembe Mutombo was 14th in the NBA in blocks per game (1.89). . . Kurt Thomas tied for 20th in rebounding (8.3 rpg), and tied for 27th in FG pct. (.473). . .Despite his injury-shortened season, Allan Houston ranked third in the League in FT pct. (.913, behind only Peja Stojakovic’s .927 and Steve Nash’s .916) and seventh in 3PT FG pct. (.431).

    WON-LOST STREAKS: Knicks’ longest winning streak was five games (Jan 30-Feb 8 over Boston, Phoenix, Indiana, Miami and Clippers), their longest winning streak since they won five straight from March 11-20, 2001. . . Longest losing streak was six games, twice (Dec 1-10 and Feb 20-29).

    BY THE MONTHS:
    Knicks were 0-1 in October, 7-9 in November, 7-9 in December, 8-8 in January, 4-8 in February, 9-5 in March and 4-3 in April. . . Knicks’ 9-5 March marked their winningest month since January 2003 (10-8). . .Winning months in March (9-5) and April (4-3) marked NY’s first back-to-back winning months since March-April 2001 (9-7, 6-4).

    EAST/WEST:
    Knicks were 31-23 against the Eastern Conference, recording their highest win total against the East since 2000-01 (32-22). . . Knicks went 17-7 against the Atlantic Division, their best mark vs. the Atlantic since 1996-97 (19-6). . . Knicks recorded season sweeps over Atlanta (3-0) and Washington (4-0), and also won season series against Boston (3-1), Miami (3-1), Orlando (3-1), Philadelphia (3-1), New Orleans (2-1) and Toronto (3-1). . . They defeated every Eastern Conference team at least once, except Cleveland (0-4). . . However, Knicks were just 8-20 against the Western Conference (2-12 on the road).


    NEW FACES OF ’04: Almost immediately upon appointment, Thomas embarked on a series of player moves that decisively changed the face of the Knicks. . .Moochie Norris and John Amaechi (waived on Jan 5) were acquired on Dec 30 from Houston for Clarence Weatherspoon. . . Then in a stunning Jan 5 megadeal, two-time All-Star Stephon Marbury, four-time All-Star Anfernee Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski were acquired from Phoenix for senior Knick Charlie Ward, Howard Eisley, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, the draft rights to Milos Vujanic and two future draft picks. . . DerMarr Johnson was signed as a free agent on Feb 3. . .At the All-Star break (Feb 15), Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed were acquired in a three-team deal that sent Keith Van Horn to Milwaukee and Michael Doleac and Joel Przybilla to Atlanta. . .Four-time All-Star Vin Baker was signed as a free agent on March 12. . .At the close of the season, only seven players remained on the Knicks’ 15-man roster from Opening Night: Shandon Anderson, Othella Harrington, Allan Houston, Dikembe Mutombo, Michael Sweetney, Kurt Thomas and Frank Williams.

    DEE-FENSE: Improvement on the defensive end was a key to Knicks’ return to post-season play. . .Knicks finished 13th in the NBA in ppg allowed (93.5), and eighth in opposition FG pct. (.429). . . By comparison, in 2002-03, they ranked 20th in opposition ppg (97.2) and 26th in opposing FG pct. (.457). . . Knicks recorded their lowest opposition ppg and lowest opposition FG pct. since 2000-01 (86.1 ppg, .417 opposing FG pct.). . . This season, the Knicks recorded their 18th, 19th and 20th sub-70 opposition games of the shot clock era (68 points by Orlando on Nov 3; 64 points by Miami on Feb 7; 65 points by New Jersey on March 19).

    DEE-FENSE, PART II: Knicks pulled down 3,493 total rebounds (42.6 rpg, 14th in NBA), their highest rebound total since 1993-94 (3,717). . .Thanks in great measure to Dikembe Mutombo (123) and Kurt Thomas (80), the Knicks recorded 391 total blocks (4.77 bpg), their highest total since 1990-91 (418 total, 5.10 bpg). . . Knicks held the opposition under .400 shooting 26 times in 2003-04, going 20-6 in those games. In 2002-03, the defense recorded just 14 sub-.400 shooting games (9-5).

    THAT WAS THE WEEK THAT WAS. . .TWICE: Dikembe Mutombo (period ending Nov 30) and Stephon Marbury (period ending Jan 18) were both honored as the NBA’s Eastern Conference Player of the Week. . . It was Deke’s eighth career POTW honor, Stephon’s sixth. . . Knicks had two POTW honorees in the same season for the first time since 1991-92, when Patrick Ewing (period ending Jan 5) and Mark Jackson (period ending March 29) were honored.

    20-20 VISION: Eleven different Knicks recorded 20+ point games in 2003-04: Stephon Marbury (25), Allan Houston (20), Keith Van Horn (18), Tim Thomas (6), Shandon Anderson (4), Kurt Thomas (3), Nazr Mohammed (2), Howard Eisley (1), Anfernee Hardaway (1), Moochie Norris (1) and DerMarr Johnson (1). . .Knicks had their highest number of single-game 20+ scorers since 1965-66, when they also produced 11 members of the 20+ club: Jim “Bad News” Barnes, Dick Barnett, Walt Bellamy, Emmette Bryant, Barry Clemens, Tom Gola, Jumpin’ Johnny Green, Howard Komives, Willis Reed, Dave Stallworth and Dick Van Arsdale.


    INJURIES: Knicks recorded 234 manpower games lost due to injury, the 15th-highest figure in the NBA and the third time in the last four years Knicks have recorded 200+ games missed. . . Among those who missed double-figure games due to injury were Allan Houston (30), Michael Sweetney (22), Antonio McDyess (17), Dikembe Mutombo (15) and Frank Williams (13). . . In all, 17 different players missed at least one game due to injury/illness.

    LINEUPS: Through a season marked with player moves and injuries to key starters, the Knicks used a staggering 23 different starting lineups in 2003-04 (as opposed to just six starting lineups in both 2001-02 and 2002-03). . . Knicks recorded their highest number of starting lineups since 1986-87, when Hubie Brown and Bob Hill employed 25 different lineups. . . Most-used lineup was the season-ending lineup of Marbury/Anderson/Mohammed/Kurt Thomas/Tim Thomas (12 games, 6-6).


    FROM THE LINE: After recording a club record .815 FT pct. in 2002-03 (2nd in NBA), Knicks finished third in the League with a .793 FT pct. (1,374-1,732 FTA), trailing only Dallas (.796) and Sacramento (.795). . .Allan Houston finished third in the NBA with a .913 mark from the line (second-best in Knicks history to Allan’s .919 in 2002-03), while three-fifths of the season-ending starting lineup -- Stephon Marbury (.833 w/NY), Kurt Thomas (.835) and Tim Thomas (.813 w/NY) – all shot .800+ from the stripe.


    THREEEEEE-POINT GOAL: Knicks finished fourth in the NBA in three-point FG pct. (.364 on 406-1,115 from Downtown). . .
    Knicks trailed only Sacramento (.401), Seattle (.373) and Houston (.366) in three-point FG pct. in 2003-04. . .Knicks recorded six games with at least 10 3PT FGM this season. . . Knicks nailed a season-high 15 (of 26) home runs in 114-86 win at Orlando on Dec 29, falling one shy of club record 16 (Jan 10, 2003 at Philadelphia).

    ON THE OFFENSIVE: Knicks finished 16th in the NBA in ppg (92.0) and 12th in FG pct. (.442). . . They were 16-1 when scoring 100+ points (lone loss came on Jan 12, when they lost to Dallas in OT, 127-121).


    March 14, 2004: Tim Thomas' 20 points and 8 rebounds helped the Knicks overcome a 26 point deficit and record their biggest comeback win since the 1991-92 season.

    COMEBACKS: [/B]Knicks won 11 games this season in which they trailed by double figures (most since 14 in 1999-2000). . . Heading the list of comebacks was an amazing 103-100 ABC win at Milwaukee on March 14, in which the Knicks trailed by as many as 26 points and recorded their biggest comeback win since the stat was first charted in 1991-92. Michael Redd’s layup gave the Bucks a 26-point lead (65-39) with 10:43 left in the third quarter, but Knicks outscored Milwaukee 64-35 over the game’s last 22:29. . . Knicks eclipsed their prior biggest post-1991-92 comeback: from 22 points down in win vs. Chicago on March 2, 1995. Knicks also rebounded from a 22-point halftime deficit (61-39), one point shy of their biggest halftime comeback (from 23 points down at halftime to beat Philadelphia on April 6, 1987). . . On the flip side, Knicks lost nine games this season in which they led by double figures (fewest since six in 2000-01). Biggest blown lead in loss was 19 points in 88-81 loss at Portland, Dec 5.

    MARGINS: Knicks were 6-6 in games decided by three points or less, 4-6 in games decided by 20 points or more. . . Biggest winning margin was 29 points (Dec 30 vs. Miami, 102-73), the last of three consecutive 20+ point wins (also 100-80 at Miami on Dec 27; 114-86 at Orlando, Dec 29). Knicks recorded three consecutive 20+ point wins for the first time since Nov 20-21-23, 1997 (over Atlanta, Washington and Vancouver). . . Biggest losing margin was 32 points (Jan 8 vs. Houston, 111-79).

    BACK TO BACKS: Knicks played 20 sets of back-to-back games. . .In back-to-backs, Knicks swept six sets, lost five, and split nine. . . Knicks’ first back-to-back sweep this season came on Dec 13-14 (95-88 vs. Denver, 89-87 vs. Washington), and marked their first back-to-back sweep since Jan 23-24, 2002 (96-92 at Toronto, 96-91 vs. Phoenix). Since then, Knicks played 33 sets of back-to-back games without a sweep, until finally ending the dry spell. . . Knicks also swept a four-games-in-five-days set from Dec 26-30, beating Miami (twice), Memphis and Orlando. It was their first sweep of a four-in-five since Jan 29-Feb 2, 1994 (over Seattle, Portland, Boston and Washington).

    WIRE TO WIRE: Knicks recorded four wire-to-wire wins in 2003-04 (games in which they never trailed). . . Included were back-to-back wins on Dec 26 at Memphis (98-94) and Dec 27 at Miami (100-80), their first consecutive wire-to-wire triumphs since Feb 19 and 21, 1999 (over Philadelphia and Chicago). . . Conversely, Knicks had 10 wire-to-wire losses (never led).



    And after that we just went down hill.

    A smart GM would of let these contracts expiring, save the draft picks and just build from there.

    Marbury was the real ultimate key to the Knicks, too bad Isiah failed to build around him.

  7. #97
    12th man
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    In conclusion, you're a moron.

    Doing

    (insert random name here) >>>>>>> (marbury).

    Really shows your flexiblity and insight to the forum

    btw, Rod Strickland owns Charlie Ward and Miss Jackson

    Rod Strickland
    13.2 ppg
    7.5 assist
    5 free throw attempts per game

    Charlie Ward
    6 ppg
    3 assist
    1 free throw attempt per game(one of the worst penatrating PG's of all time, always hanging on the perimeter, cannot create at an efficient level for his teammates)

    only played 21 minutes due to the penetration giventh by Strickland, Ward's bitch ass was unable to put a stop to Hot Rod.

    Rod vs Miss Jackson

    Hot Rod
    14.5 ppg
    8.1 assist
    48% FG
    5 free throw attempts per game
    only 2 turnovers a game

    Miss Jackson
    8 ppg
    45% FG
    1 free throw attems per game
    8 assist on 2 turnovers


    Go eat a dick, you ****ing suck.

  8. #98
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    Too hot.

  9. #99
    OG GoKnIcKsDLEE42's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    Marbury, has been each of his teams management's worst nightmares
    explain please

  10. #100
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Thumbs down You put a lot of time into being a **** don't you.

    As if I have time to read all your self glorifying bean curd bull****.... Did I ever insult you throughout my post? No.

    Are you obsessed with your own opinion of yourself on this site? Yes. To the point where you make a thread about yourself being so awesome. Pendeho. Stop wasting your time fostering turds.

    Call me what you like non-hetrotard.... If someone argues with you, you don't have to get your clitoris in a cramp.

    Spending so much time on here protecting yourself with 3 hour posts. Sad.

    Go and prepare for your Quinceañeros puto.おかま、金玉 なめてるのあほマザファカー.

  11. #101
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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    As if I have time to read all your self glorifying bean curd bull****.... Did I ever insult you throughout my post? No.

    Are you obsessed with your own opinion of yourself on this site? Yes. To the point where you make a thread about yourself being so awesome. Pendeho. Stop wasting your time fostering turds.

    Call me what you like non-hetrotard.... If someone argues with you, you don't have to get your clitoris in a cramp.

    Spending so much time on here protecting yourself with 3 hour posts. Sad.

    Go and prepare for your Quinceañeros puto.おかま、金玉 なめてるのあほマザファカー.




    Damn, you're weak.

    I did like 3 meaningless insults.
    and you come back at me like a b*tch.
    The information was too much for you, so you focus on the meaningless insults.

    Not suprise, you're not the first.
    Defeat taste like shyt, right? Next time don't come to a debate with ignorant opinions backed up by your stupidty. Its mad fail.

    lol...your swag tells me you have no life or do nothing with your life, I just come on here for a quick visit and post...my life is indescribable really, I sense the envy in your text.

    Keep throwing, because you'll keep missing.



  12. #102
    Veteran TunerAddict's Avatar
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    Ad hominid is pretty much an admission of defeat.

    "I can't fight your argument, so I'll attack the arguer."

  13. #103
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    It not defeat princess... It's your obsession.....

    All you ever seem to do is google stats and articles that you think make you sound like you're a prophet.

    So, if i must reply to you for the sake of helping you feed the belly of your gloating beast, I will.
    Bernard King was the Carmelo of the league back thing, unstoppable scoring SF, along with the dominant Patrick Ewing, and two potential 20 ppg scorers in Gerald Wilkins and Bill Cartwright, along with a solid bench of Trent Tucker, Gerald Henderson and Kenny Walker.
    followed up by

    King actually played 6...get your stats correct next time.
    The only reason I didn't get my stats right, was because I don't rely on google and or the articles made by others for regurgitation.

    You didn't actually know Bernard King was out for an entire season, that much is clear.

    Tucker = one of the best 3pt shooters in Knicks history, good for 10 points off the bench, contributed for the Knicks throughout the 80's...spent more seasons (almost ten) as a Knick than Jackson did in his career. He was a nice piece, I'm not going to be a f*cking moron like you and title Tucker as "ultimate" or anything, he was just a nice guy to have off the bench. No scrub scores 10 points a game and shoots 40%. Certinely you can't.

    Kenny Walker/Henderson = another solid bench guy for 10 point, being on the bench doesn't make you a scrub, especially if you're coming off the bench for 10ppg
    Yeah and I'm sure you were there watching it all weren't you. I've actually watched these guys play and they were crap. All of them. Tucker was a good shooter but so is JJ Red Dick.

    Kenny Walker/Henderson = another solid bench guy for 10 point, being on the bench doesn't make you a scrub, especially if you're coming off the bench for 10ppg
    You don't know what you're talking about. Did you ever watch Kenny Walker attempt to shoot or dribble? Obviously not.

    Stop googling.

    "Bill Cartwright had the 2nd worst shot in history"

    Again, you're ignorant punk self never seems to stop failing after each trial. You're really hopeless of learning or even improving...theres no progression in your text...you just seem to get worse.

    Bill Cartwright was 7"1 man, 7 footers are known to for not being able to shoot.
    Dirk Nowitzki
    Patrick Ewing
    Yao Ming
    The Admiral
    The Dream
    Big Z
    Ralph Sampson
    Andrew Bogut
    Blah
    Blah
    ****ing
    Blah

    Previous to that in 90-91?
    Lost NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-0) versus Chicago Bulls.
    Shall we go through a list of teams that got stamped by the Bulls in the 90's? Let's not for the sake of saving time from a google search for you.

    Obviously, its no contest...Marbury is the more superior and dominant player, it shouldn't even be mentioned.
    I was referring solely to achievements as winners in my comparison. Man, apparently pulling your dick too much (over yourself) does make you blind.

    I have nothing to say to your copy and pastes because they're not your opinions, they're your diet. Stop thinking you're the man.....

    Googling and regurgitating the opinions of those you consider correct, doesn't make you worthy of starting threads about yourself.

    Vicarious failure.

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    I guess even the great Stephony couldn't carry the Celts tonight. Do or Die in Boston. Hopefully DIE!!!!

  15. #105
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    I thought Knicks fans ALWAYS hated the Celtics and ALWAYS wanted them to lose?For those on here that are rooting for the Celtics to win just b/c of Marbury should be ashamed.Don't tell me that you are just rooting for them just b/c your player is playing for them either.If you want them to win then you are Celtics fan and should post this Marbury crap on your new teams site(Celtics)

    Marbury fans are going to have to face the fact that Marbury is gone!! He isn't a Knick no more and never will be again.So its time for you to make a choice and that is are you going to stay a Knick and quit bringing Marbury up with thread after thread OR are you going to switch teams and become a Celtics fan and join their bandwagan.

    I could be all wrong I might be the only one on here that feels this way about seeing Marbury thread after Marbury thread.If nobody else feels the same way that I do and and don't get tired of reading Marbury threads then I won't bring it up again.GO KNICKS!!!!!

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