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Thread: 'Missing Link' in human evolution found

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Yo. You're not THAT smart guy. You're really kinda avg when it comes to what you think you know. Stop tooting you're horn so much as if you're this ultra intellect lol.

    I totally get what you're trying to say. That being said I do not agree with whoever and whatever you posted about Luke's writings being written say what 90 ce? That would have given the Christians no time to be prepared to leave. And being a Jehovah's witness, which the Christians in the 1st century were also, I know that they would not have moved so drastically without input from the written word and the governing body at the time. So this is deeper than you can imagine. Jehovah's people are united. The Christians would have not left based on what any other group was doing at the time. The Christians were not involved in the wars of that day, or the political process of that day, so them leaving was purely independent reasoning. So again, I ask you WHY WOULD THEY LEAVE? Especially if Luke's writings were not around?
    I've never stated that I was an "ultra intellect" or "tooted my horn" as you say. I don't know where you get that from.

    Why would they leave you ask? Geez. I explained that in the previous post. There was a war coming. Many people left. Jews and Christians. Why is that hard for you to understand? People leave when they know a war is coming. Even King Agrippa left.

    Wikipedia and this website were my sources:
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    Are you allowed to read the true history? Since you mentioned in the next post that you must stay away from secular education.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Josephus sad this: Then, according to Jewish historian Josephus, the Roman commander “suddenly called off his men, abandoned hope though he had suffered no reverse, and flying in the face of all reason retired from the City.”

    Now If this man was around at that time and he said they retired for no reason, and was working for ROME, what is to debate? Seriously? You're acting as if it's made up. Now I'm sure he had his reason for calling it off, but whatever it was clearly it had to look crazy to Josephus because it was not like he was in danger of losing. The Romans were a world power. Jerusalem was divided and beaten. What they did 3 years later could have been done at the time. Which is probably why Josephus wrote what he did.
    I went through all 20 books of the Antiquities of the Jews and all 7 books of the War of the Jews. I did a search for that quote and parts of that quote to make sure, and did not get any results. When I do a search for that quote in Google, many religious websites come up. It's obvious you copied and pasted this from a creationist website.

    So yes, at this point it looks as if that quote was made up. Religious websites are well known for manilpualting, misquoting and sometimes just flat out lying. It was not written by Josephus. Maybe some religious author read Josephus' work and summarized what he thought, but I can't find it. Maybe it's in a different book. If you could please cite it and provide the link, I would appreciate it, for I would like to read this for myself.

    Plus, in wikipedia and in the other link I provided you, it explains what happened in 66. There is no mention in any history reference that I can find that suggests the Romans just left for no reason.

    Which leads me to ask the question again. Are you allowed to read real history books or are they forbidden? Because you seem to be only using creationist websites and making up your own history to match prophecies.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Why would they fear for their lives? Dude called off the first attack. The army left!!!!! They felt they had won. There was no larger army being amassed. Where did you read this? If the army was being amassed How then would people be allowed to leave? That makes no sense. It makes more sense if the army pulled back some and sent for more troops in the initial attack of 66 ce. But since they fled for no reason, that would give anyone who wanted to leave a chance to. But again, I'm not nearly as smart as you, so maybe you have a better explanation?!
    Again, this is wrong. They didn't just flee for no reason. They were ambushed, defeated and humiliated by the jews. Please read your history. I don't have time to give you a proper freaking history lesson. Stop with the creationists websites...please!

    They feared for their lives because everybody knew the Romans were returning. In response to the humiliating defeat in Jerusalem in 66, the Romans started destroying and conquering every city on there way to Jerusalem and crushing the Jewish resistance north of Jerusalem and working their way southward, crucifying 500 people a day...and the Christians weren't supposed to fear for their lives?


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Lemme put you on a bit about Jehovah's witnesses. They are and have always been a very well organized people. From Moses time, to the early Christian era, and especially today. At no time, would their decisions to make drastic moves come from any other threat of life, or government. They were hated in Jerusalem, stoned and killed, crucified in Rome.. All that. Stayed. Why? Because they had a commission from God to complete. So tell me.. If they are willing to get stoned for their beliefs, why would a general calling off his troops scare them into leaving? Because that is essentially what you are saying. Nowhere did I read a larger army was being amassed during the time they fled for no reason. In fact, it was a completely different general who came the 2nd time. Which hints to a completely different agenda.

    People willing to get stoned, flogged, jailed, beaten, crucified but yet flee when an army was called off? Adds up? No. They fled because they remembered Jesus words in Luke. Point blank.
    Do you know why a second general was placed? Vespian returned because the emporer Nero had committed suicide. He placed his son Titus in charge.

    So if the Christians fled because of Jesus' prophecy, how come many non-christians fled as well? There were many jews that fled. King Agrippa fled as well. Jews were jailed, beaten and crucified as well.

    Fact is, you have no proof at all. None. You can't just say they fled because of a prophecy written after the event actually happened. And you can't change history to make it seem like a prophecy was fulfilled.

    Oh, and you can't claim the people then were Jehovah's Witnesses. The JWs weren't created until 1870. And you can't claim that those peolpe lived the same lifestyle as you. You don't know that. You have no proof. You guys really like to just make **** up to make it seem like you're the best religious people in the world, don't you? SMH.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Im not arguing if live is only 6000 years old guy. Never have. That has never been a Jehovah's witness teaching. Again, what we disagree on is evolution and the origin of man. Not whether all life (animal, plant, human) is only 6k.
    Ok. Now it seems like you are changing your story. I specifically remember you arguing for the creationist's side of a young earth. If we agree that life on earth is very old, then why did you argue with me so much about the fossils of 3.5 billion year old single-celled creatures? Why did you argue with me about Neanderthal paintings? Why did you argue with me about radioactive carbon dating? What a waste of time.

    Wait, the bible says that god created the universe in 6 days. So, yes the bible is still wrong about creation. Even if 1000 years to us is 1 day to god (as you've said many times before), we know the universe is at least 14 billion years old. This is a fact. We know that life on earth is at least 3.4 billion years old. This is a fact (and it seems now that suddenly you are willing to agree with me). The math doesn't add up. Even if we factor in 1000 years = 1 day.

    So, yes the bible is wrong about creation. It is flat out wrong. This is a fact. An indisputable fact. There is nothing you have to argue against this. So again, if the bible is wrong about creation, how can it be right about the end of the world.



    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Honestly never seen this question posed. Please oblige.
    Geez. It's moot now. You suddenly agree life on earth is very old. But it is a question I proposed about three posts back in this thread. It is how fossil fuels are from the compressed, decaying carbon lifeforms of 100 million years ago. But now that you agree life on earth existed 100 million years ago, there is no point to it.

    But again, if life existed 100 million years ago, the math doesn't add up to the bible's version of creation.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Again, no one knows how long each day to God was before man. A day to God could have been thousands to us. And he created all other forms of life before mankind was made. So therefore this could have been several thousands of years. Could have. what we do know now is that a day to God is as a 1k to us. But That does not mean it was that way before man.

    Wow. Complete made up bull****. So the passage of time to us before he created us was changed after he created us. Honestly dude. How can you believe this without laughing at yourself for believing this. Sounds like someone is changing their stories again to make it match with the evidene. You're beginning to run out of options.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    We are debating whether we're monkey men. And you or science have yet to show any such being.
    I've shown you many, many examples. But unfortunately you require a man with monkey hands. Which is utterly ridiculous and just shows how helpless you really are.

    Do you have any pictures of you as a baby with man hands? How come? Because you gradually changed over time. You have pictures of you as a baby, a child, a young man and as an adult. But not any baby-men. With your reasoning, you must have never existed as a child because there is no evidence of YOU as you currently are as a child. It's the same for evolution. The fossils are like pictures of the past. It was a gradual change over millions of years.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    This is simply not true. If it were, EVERY SCIENTISTS WOULD AGREE. Since they don't, you're beat. If it's as cut and dry and you make it out to be, there would not be a hint of disagreement in the science world. But there is. Why? Cuz the scientists who disagree are stupid and uneducated like Jehovah's witnesses?
    Please give me evidence that has contradicted evolution. Please give me a scientist that has published data in a peer-reviewed journal that refutes the evidence.

    There are scientists that are like you. In the face of overwhelming evidence they can't give up their religion. But they still haven't actually published any findings that contradict evolution.

    Publishing in a peer-review journal is the gold standard for science. It allows the scientific community to read, study and test the data supplied by the scientist. How come there are no publications contradicting evolution? You would think creationists would want this data out in the public.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Actually, I'm not complaining at all. just saying science which in theory only deals with precision, should never have to revise it's basis. Unless of course it's not a perfect science, which then will lead to many questions. And if it's not perfect, why should one trust it? Because of strength of numbers? 10/17 is a good night in the NBA, but if my life depended on it, I don't know...
    There is no such thing as a perfect science. There is no perfect thing anywhere. You even agreed earlier in this thread that the bible is an imperfect book written by imperfect people. So why do you believe the imperfect book? I've already proven the prophecies false, or at least disputable within reason and I've already proven it wrong about creation.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    And secondly, we never change the prophecy, but we have had wrong thoughts on when prophecy will take place, or later revelations have helped to shed light on a point or two we may have misapplied. I'm not ashamed to admit this, because we are not a perfect people. But our misunderstanding does not mean that God's word is tainted or wrong. And the very same thing happened to Christians in Jesus day. He simply corrected them and kept them on the path necessary until the time came for more light to be shed on a subject matter. And that is what Jehovah's people have done today.

    Jehovah will not be late. The end will come right on time. But his time. We preach the good news and wait til that time. But the Bible does hint on worldly activities during that time, and if one is paying attn, we been in that time for quite awhile. And it's just getting worse and worse. Won't be much longer, and certainly not 50 or 60 years.
    In other words, you've changed your story. So what will happen in 60 years when the world will not end? The JWs will finally go away. What will your children do when they realize they've been brought up with lies?

    I gaurantee it's not coming. With the utmost certainty.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    You just proved my point. It only has 120 people, and still does business in its seaport. drying yard for dragnets.
    I hope this is a type-o and not your delusions again. It's a city of 120,000 people. Not 120. Maybe a type-o. Ok moving on.

    The prophecy also states that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, "never to be rebuilt again". Nebuchadnezzar failed, which is why I pasted the wikipedia history of Tyre. Also it was rebuilt. It's the fourth largest city in Lebanon. It's a large seaport not a small fishing village. Oh, and it is still called Tyre.

    But for some reason you focus on the fact that fishing exists in Tyre and that is the reason the prophecy is true. Seems like you are again trying to force something into making it look like a fulfilled prophecy.

    So, the bible predicted that a city where fishing occurs would become a city where fishing occurs. Wow!! Bravo bible! Meanwhile, you messed up on the whole Nebuchadnezzar destroying it to "never to be rebuilt again". What a magical book. I should ignore every piece of indisputable evidence disproving the bible because of this. *sarcasm*

    And I think possibly you are misinterpreting the saying of spreading fishnets. The prophecy talks about the city being destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, never to be rebuilt again and "I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets". It's a metaphor, meaning it will be leveled to bare rock. Bare rock is where people in those days spread their fishnets to dry. To be destroyed and never to be rebuilt again but to be rebuilt as a place for fishing. That doesn't make sense and is contradictory in itself.

    Geez. I thought you guys were great at understanding the bible. And little ol' me, an atheist, understands the bible better than you. Ha!

    But it's moot anyway. The prophecy is false because Nebuchadnezzar failed to conquer Tyre. He never leveled it to bare rock and Tyre has been rebuilt. = Failed prophecy.


    I can't believe we're still debating this. I proved this prophecy to be false long ago with the same evidence. It's quite evident it will take more than facts an logic to bring you out of your delusion.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    The uninhabitable waste land I referred to, was the place where ancient Babylon now sits. Jehovah said no arab will pitch a tent there. Meaning it will never fully be inhabited again. Now since you are the one famous for posting pictures and videos, please, help us out and post some recent pics and videos of what ancient Babylon now looks like. Because I'm pretty sure the last time I seen pics of it, it was a desert in ruins that many have tried to resurrect and have not. Including sadaam once.

    Didn't your teachers say pay attn to the board in class? Or did you miss that part getting that grand education of yours? come on smart guy... follow along properly. Tyre and Babylon, two diff outcomes. Keep this up we'll have to get the dunce cap out and put you in the corner!
    Ok. I got confused. Because the bible does say for Tyre to be destroyed and never rebuilt again. I never said I was the smartest guy. For some reason you misinterpreted my posts as coming off that way. I apologize for seeming pompous. I didn't mean it.

    Phew. Running out of time. I will have to edit this later but...

    from wikipedia
    Reconstruction
    In 1983, Saddam Hussein started rebuilding the city on top of the old ruins (because of this, artifacts and other finds may well be under the city by now), investing in both restoration and new construction. He inscribed his name on many of the bricks in imitation of Nebuchadnezzar. One frequent inscription reads: "This was built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar, to glorify Iraq". This recalls the ziggurat at Ur, where each individual brick was stamped with "Ur-Nammu, king of Ur, who built the temple of Nanna". These bricks became sought after as collectors' items after the downfall of Hussein, and the ruins are no longer being restored to their original state. He also installed a huge portrait of himself and Nebuchadnezzar at the entrance to the ruins, and shored up Processional Way, a large boulevard of ancient stones, and the Lion of Babylon, a black rock sculpture about 2,600 years old.

    When the Gulf War ended, Saddam wanted to build a modern palace, also over some old ruins; it was made in the pyramidal style of a Sumerian ziggurat. He named it Saddam Hill. In 2003, he was ready to begin the construction of a cable car line over Babylon when the invasion began and halted the project.

    An article published in April 2006 states that UN officials and Iraqi leaders have plans for restoring Babylon, making it into a cultural center. [36][37]

    As of May 2009, the provincial government of Babil has reopened the site to tourism.

    Picture of rebuilt section of Babylon by Sadaam:


    Also, currently we have troops stationed where Babylon was, at Camp Alpha. So this prophecy is wrong too. There are arabs in tents there.

    Again you misinterpret the bible. When it says "neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation; neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there"

    it means: No one will live in Babylon. Even people won't camp there, and shepherds won't let their sheep rest there.

    The US Army is curently camped there. = Failed Prophecy

    LJ 2, Bible 0. Come to think of it, is the bible right about anything? I mean really, anything? Give me one indisputable fact or evidence that the bible is correct on. Just one.

    And why does god want to destroy so many cities? He has a temper problem. He should have known this before, since he can see in the future and all.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Dec 15, 2009 at 12:39.

  2. #77
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I've never stated that I was an "ultra intellect" or "tooted my horn" as you say. I don't know where you get that from.

    Why would they leave you ask? Geez. I explained that in the previous post. There was a war coming. Many people left. Jews and Christians. Why is that hard for you to understand? People leave when they know a war is coming. Even King Agrippa left.

    Wikipedia and this website were my sources:
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    Are you allowed to read the true history? Since you mentioned in the next post that you must stay away from secular education.
    Because the Christian congregation would not move based on any other people's moves. that part you will never understand because you do not value the organization of God's people. So you're explanation is invalid because they would not have simply left for fear of what you say. So you are wrong. If they were so scared for their lives they would have never been Christian! They were being slaughtered as is, correct?

    And again, silly, no one said to stay away from secular education. They said to be mindful of putting any form of education before God. Some people can handle both, some can't. That's a far cry from staying away from secular education.

    You really just don't like to listen lol.





    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I went through all 20 books of the Antiquities of the Jews and all 7 books of the War of the Jews. I did a search for that quote and parts of that quote to make sure, and did not get any results. When I do a search for that quote in Google, many religious websites come up. It's obvious you copied and pasted this from a creationist website.

    So yes, at this point it looks as if that quote was made up. Religious websites are well known for manilpualting, misquoting and sometimes just flat out lying. It was not written by Josephus. Maybe some religious author read Josephus' work and summarized what he thought, but I can't find it. Maybe it's in a different book. If you could please cite it and provide the link, I would appreciate it, for I would like to read this for myself.

    Plus, in wikipedia and in the other link I provided you, it explains what happened in 66. There is no mention in any history reference that I can find that suggests the Romans just left for no reason.

    Which leads me to ask the question again. Are you allowed to read real history books or are they forbidden? Because you seem to be only using creationist websites and making up your own history to match prophecies.
    When I get that for you what will you say? That Josephus was lying? On it asap.











    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Oh, and you can't claim the people then were Jehovah's Witnesses. The JWs weren't created until 1870. And you can't claim that those peolpe lived the same lifestyle as you. You don't know that. You have no proof. You guys really like to just make **** up to make it seem like you're the best religious people in the world, don't you? SMH.
    It's laughable that you would even suggest you have more biblical knowledge or understanding when you can't even see that there have been Jehovah's witnesses basically from the dawn of humanity.

    Hebrews 11:4 starts with the very first Jehovah's witness on earth. It reads:
    4 By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain, through which [faith] he had witness borne to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness respecting his gifts; and through it he, although he died, yet speaks.


    Then the rest of the chapter goes on to speak of many other witnesses of Jehovah. Noah, Abraham, Enoch, etc. But To be assured that they are witnesses chapter 12 opens like this: 12:1


    So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,


    Who were these people witnesses of? Who bore witness that they were righteous? Jehovah, that's who. That is why they are his witnesses. This is first grade level stuff here, hope you can follow.


    Also, here, the jews were considered his witnesses too. Isaiah 43:10

    10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”


    So it's very simple. If you recognize Jehovah as the only true God and worship him because of it, then you are a witness that he is God. Therefore, it is false to believe that Jehovah's witnesses have only been around for 139 years, because God himself views anyone recognizing him as God in faith is a witness. kabeesh??? I hope we're done with this at least.





    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Ok. Now it seems like you are changing your story. I specifically remember you arguing for the creationist's side of a young earth. If we agree that life on earth is very old, then why did you argue with me so much about the fossils of 3.5 billion year old single-celled creatures? Why did you argue with me about Neanderthal paintings? Why did you argue with me about radioactive carbon dating? What a waste of time.
    You clearly have misunderstood my side of the issue this whole time. The reason we argued was because you believe in evolution. And you believe you're a monkey. Which is fine. But we can't find your people's remains nowhere. so the whole debate about neanderthal, and carbon dating and fossil was all linked to that same point for me. I have issues with being a monkey. You don't. I have issues with strength of numbers (carbon dating tests 10-14, yadda yadda) you don't. I once read a scientist say that instead of a reading being millions of years, it could likely only be thousands. That is a big jump. thousands to millions. If some scientists say this, why should I believe the others who disagree? Strength in numbers? Tough for me.

    summary: Carbon dating is unreliable even to some scientists, and they all are not religious, so stop assuming they are. Humans did not evolve from monkeys, that's why I argued against neanderthal paintings, tools and such, along with unreliable carbon dating. the fossil record does not prove we evolve gradually. Hope this helps.


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Wait, the bible says that god created the universe in 6 days. So, yes the bible is still wrong about creation. Even if 1000 years to us is 1 day to god (as you've said many times before), we know the universe is at least 14 billion years old. This is a fact. We know that life on earth is at least 3.4 billion years old. This is a fact (and it seems now that suddenly you are willing to agree with me). The math doesn't add up. Even if we factor in 1000 years = 1 day.

    So, yes the bible is wrong about creation. It is flat out wrong. This is a fact. An indisputable fact. There is nothing you have to argue against this. So again, if the bible is wrong about creation, how can it be right about the end of the world.
    I'm posting a seperate article to deal with this. Hope it helps.





    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Wow. Complete made up bull****. So the passage of time to us before he created us was changed after he created us. Honestly dude. How can you believe this without laughing at yourself for believing this. Sounds like someone is changing their stories again to make it match with the evidene. You're beginning to run out of options.
    That would sound crazy, but I could not find the article to help explain it better. I have. Will be addressed.




    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I've shown you many, many examples. But unfortunately you require a man with monkey hands. Which is utterly ridiculous and just shows how helpless you really are.
    You're telling me I'm from a monkey, but you can't find the remains of one half monkey, half man, But I'm helpless? did I tell you you were helpless when you said if God was real why wont he reveal himself to you? every specis they have found have been from a monkey, or a man. Even neanderthal is considered a different type of man. Still a man. But I'm nut for wanting to see a ape man remains? Im not even asking for half and half. just sufficient enough to spring doubt in creation. But there is none. i don't think I'm any more helpless in that regard than you do wanting to see God (which would kill you by the way)

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Do you have any pictures of you as a baby with man hands? How come? Because you gradually changed over time. You have pictures of you as a baby, a child, a young man and as an adult. But not any baby-men. With your reasoning, you must have never existed as a child because there is no evidence of YOU as you currently are as a child. It's the same for evolution. The fossils are like pictures of the past. It was a gradual change over millions of years.
    I will give you an E for effort, but the analogy suffers because, my adult hands are just bigger versions of my baby hands. I just gradually grew into a bigger human, not a bigger half and half species. So the bible is right there, because it said let the earth spring forth living souls according to their kinds. So I grow bigger, but still according to my kind.

    You tried it.




    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Please give me evidence that has contradicted evolution. Please give me a scientist that has published data in a peer-reviewed journal that refutes the evidence.

    There are scientists that are like you. In the face of overwhelming evidence they can't give up their religion. But they still haven't actually published any findings that contradict evolution.

    Publishing in a peer-review journal is the gold standard for science. It allows the scientific community to read, study and test the data supplied by the scientist. How come there are no publications contradicting evolution? You would think creationists would want this data out in the public.

    Please refer back to what does the fossil record really prove? That should help.

    And Not every scientist who disagrees with the so called inexplicable evidence of evolution is religious. You cannot possibly believe that.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    There is no such thing as a perfect science. There is no perfect thing anywhere. You even agreed earlier in this thread that the bible is an imperfect book written by imperfect people. So why do you believe the imperfect book? I've already proven the prophecies false, or at least disputable within reason and I've already proven it wrong about creation.
    so you admit that science could be wrong with its strength in numbers in say carbon dating? Especially in light that you say it's not perfect? So essentially you are going with the in crowd here?

    I said I don't argue whether the bible is perfect or not. But it was written by many imperfect men. And for it to be written by imperfect men, the internal harmony is outstanding. And there is no way they could have been in cahootes, because it was written over a long period of time, diff places, diff types of people.

    I believe in it because of it's Internal harmony, scientific accuracy, prophetic word, and the writers candor. I'm living in prophetic times predicted several times throughout the bible. none more than Daniel who said that the truth would be abundant in the time of the end. I look up and see that. So no way he could have maneuvered it. he has long been dead.

    and you have not proven creation wrong. you only think you have.





    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    In other words, you've changed your story. So what will happen in 60 years when the world will not end? The JWs will finally go away. What will your children do when they realize they've been brought up with lies?

    I gaurantee it's not coming. With the utmost certainty
    our understanding on some things has been refined, so of course when you understand things differently, your explanation changes some, yes. but we are imperfect right? Are we not allowed to misunderstand for awhile, and then get a grasp on it later? Has that not ever happened to you, or science? So now because we say we have the truth, we somehow better be absolutely perfect? That's retarded.

    And the end is so close, one looking around can smell it. You keep thinking you have 60 years. we'll destroy ourselves long before then if we continue as is. And i don't need the Bible to see that much.




    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I hope this is a type-o and not your delusions again. It's a city of 120,000 people. Not 120. Maybe a type-o. Ok moving on.

    The prophecy also states that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, "never to be rebuilt again". Nebuchadnezzar failed, which is why I pasted the wikipedia history of Tyre. Also it was rebuilt. It's the fourth largest city in Lebanon. It's a large seaport not a small fishing village. Oh, and it is still called Tyre.

    But for some reason you focus on the fact that fishing exists in Tyre and that is the reason the prophecy is true. Seems like you are again trying to force something into making it look like a fulfilled prophecy.

    So, the bible predicted that a city where fishing occurs would become a city where fishing occurs. Wow!! Bravo bible! Meanwhile, you messed up on the whole Nebuchadnezzar destroying it to "never to be rebuilt again". What a magical book. I should ignore every piece of indisputable evidence disproving the bible because of this. *sarcasm*

    And I think possibly you are misinterpreting the saying of spreading fishnets. The prophecy talks about the city being destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, never to be rebuilt again and "I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets". It's a metaphor, meaning it will be leveled to bare rock. Bare rock is where people in those days spread their fishnets to dry. To be destroyed and never to be rebuilt again but to be rebuilt as a place for fishing. That doesn't make sense and is contradictory in itself.

    Geez. I thought you guys were great at understanding the bible. And little ol' me, an atheist, understands the bible better than you. Ha!

    But it's moot anyway. The prophecy is false because Nebuchadnezzar failed to conquer Tyre. He never leveled it to bare rock and Tyre has been rebuilt. = Failed prophecy.
    Is Tyre as powerful a nation now as it was in biblical times? No. So they never rebuilt their powerful nation. all it is is a seaport with 120k people (typo). If because of wars it never rebuilds itself to previous power, how can it be rebuilt? It never said no one would live there. And if the prophecy says that it will become a drying yard for dragnets, and its a seaport now, then clearly the Bible accounted for it being rebuilt enough to be inhabited. so "rebuilt" has to logically mean in power and prestige. and that has never been rebuilt. You do realize that rebuilt can have several meanings, right? You can rebuild pride, land, power, etc. So please, lets not debate that rebuilt can apply to Tyre never rebuilding it's power it once had. It can totally apply.









    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Phew. Running out of time. I will have to edit this later but...

    from wikipedia



    Picture of rebuilt section of Babylon by Sadaam:


    Also, currently we have troops stationed where Babylon was, at Camp Alpha. So this prophecy is wrong too. There are arabs in tents there.

    Again you misinterpret the bible. When it says "neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation; neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there"

    it means: No one will live in Babylon. Even people won't camp there, and shepherds won't let their sheep rest there.

    The US Army is curently camped there. = Failed Prophecy

    LJ 2, Bible 0. Come to think of it, is the bible right about anything? I mean really, anything? Give me one indisputable fact or evidence that the bible is correct on. Just one.

    And why does god want to destroy so many cities? He has a temper problem. He should have known this before, since he can see in the future and all.
    Nothing in here says that people live there. All this says is sadaam wanted to do blah blah blah, but because of xyz, it was called off.

    that prophecy refers to inhabitable life there. anyone with half a brain can see that based on the words from generation to generation. Where can you find shepherds and sheep in the desert? That clearly means established habitat. the Smithsonian called the place flat hot deserted and dusty. And army camping there, a failed attempt at a building project, to only become a tourist site is a far cry from the prophecy failing. You are reaching. per usual.

    Will address this more too in the next couple of threads.

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    Default Can you trust the Bible?

    Reasons to Trust the Bible

    1. Historical Soundness

    It would be hard to trust a book that is found to contain inaccuracies. Imagine reading a modern history book that dated the second world war to the 1800’s or that called the president of the United States a king. Would such inaccuracies not raise questions in your mind about the overall reliability of the book?
    NO ONE has ever successfully challenged the historical accuracy of the Bible. It refers to real people and real events.

    People. Bible critics questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea who handed Jesus over to be impaled. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Evidence that Pilate was once ruler of Judea is etched on a stone discovered at the Mediterranean seaport city of Caesarea in 1961.
    Before 1993, there was no proof outside the Bible to support the historicity of David, the brave young shepherd who later became king of Israel. That year, however, archaeologists uncovered in northern Israel a basalt stone, dated to the ninth century B.C.E., that experts say bears the words “House of David” and “king of Israel.”
    Events. Until recently, many scholars doubted the accuracy of the Bible’s account of the nation of Edom battling with Israel in the time of David. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Edom, they argued, was a simple pastoral society at the time and did not become sufficiently organized or have the might to threaten Israel until much later. However, recent excavations indicate that “Edom was a complex society centuries earlier [than previously thought], as reflected in the Bible,” states an article in the journal Biblical Archaeology Review.
    Proper titles. There were many rulers on the world stage during the 16 centuries that the Bible was being written. When the Bible refers to a ruler, it always uses the proper title. For example, it correctly refers to Herod Antipas as “district ruler” and Gallio as “proconsul.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] refers to Tattenai, the governor of the Persian province “beyond the River,” the Euphrates River. A coin produced in the fourth century B.C.E. contains a similar description, identifying the Persian governor Mazaeus as ruler of the province “Beyond the River.”
    Accuracy in seemingly minor details is no small matter. If we can trust the Bible writers in even small details, should that not bolster our confidence in the other things they wrote?

    2. Candor and Honesty

    Honesty provides the foundation for trust. A man who has a reputation for honesty may win your trust, but if he lies to you even once, he may lose it.
    THE Bible writers were honest men who wrote with openness of heart. Their candor gives their writing the clear ring of truth.
    Mistakes and shortcomings. The Bible writers openly admitted their own failures and weaknesses. Moses told of a mistake he made that cost him dearly. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Asaph explained that for a time he found himself envying the prosperous life of the wicked. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Jonah told of his disobedience and the bad attitude he initially had when God showed mercy to repentant sinners. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Matthew freely related that he had abandoned Jesus on the night of Jesus’ arrest.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Bible writers, such as Jonah, recorded their own mistakes

    The writers of the Hebrew Scriptures laid bare the repeated grumbling and rebellion of their own people. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) The writers spared no one, not even the rulers of their nation. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) With similar candor, the letters of the apostles reported the serious problems experienced by individual Christians, including responsible ones, as well as by some congregations in the first century C.E.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Unflattering truth. The Bible writers did not try to gloss over what some might have viewed as embarrassing truth. The first-century Christians frankly acknowledged that they were not admired by the world around them but were looked upon as foolish and ignoble. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) The writers noted that Jesus’ apostles were seen as “unlettered and ordinary.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    The Gospel writers did not color the facts in order to cast Jesus in a more favorable light. Rather, they reported honestly that he was born under humble circumstances into a working-class family, that he did not study at the prestigious schools of his day, and that the majority of his listeners rejected his message.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Clearly, the Bible gives ample evidence that it is the product of honest writers. Does their honesty win your trust?

    3. Internal Harmony

    Imagine asking 40 men from varied backgrounds to write a book, each writing a section. The writers live in a number of lands and do not all know one another. Some do not know what the others have written. Would you expect a book thus produced to be harmonious?
    THE Bible is such a book.* Written under even more unusual conditions than those described above, its internal harmony is nothing less than profound.
    Unique circumstances. The Bible was written over a span of some 1,600 years, from 1513 B.C.E. to about 98 C.E. Many of the approximately 40 writers thus lived centuries apart. Their occupations were varied. Some were fishermen, others were shepherds or kings, and one was a physician.
    A harmonious message. The Bible penmen developed one central theme: the vindication of God’s right to rule mankind and the fulfillment of his purpose by means of his heavenly Kingdom, a world government. That theme is introduced in Genesis, expanded on in the books that follow, and brought to a climax in Revelation.
    Agreement on details. The Bible writers agreed on even minute details, but often this harmony was clearly unintentional. Note an example. The Bible writer John tells us that when a large crowd came to hear Jesus, Jesus specifically asked Philip where to buy some loaves to feed the people. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) In a parallel account, Luke says that this took place near the city of Bethsaida. Earlier in his book, John happened to have said that Philip was from Bethsaida. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) So Jesus naturally addressed his question to one of the men who had lived nearby. The details agree—but with an obvious lack of intent to make them harmonious.#
    Reasonable differences. There are some differences between certain accounts, but should we not expect this? Suppose a group of people witnessed a crime. If each one mentioned the same details using the same words, would you not suspect collusion? Reasonably, the testimony of each would vary somewhat according to his particular angle of view. So it was with the Bible writers.
    Was Jesus’ garment purple or scarlet?

    Consider an example. Did Jesus wear a purple garment on the day of his death, as Mark and John report? ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Or was it scarlet, as Matthew says? ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Really, both can be correct. Purple has components of red in it. Depending on the observer’s angle of view, light reflection and background could have subdued certain hues, giving different casts to the garment.%
    The harmony of the Bible writers, including their unintentional consistency, further stamps their writings as trustworthy.
    * The Bible is a collection of 66 books, or subdivisions, starting with Genesis and ending with Revelation.
    # For more examples of such harmony, see pages 16-17 of the brochure A Book for All People, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    % For further information, see chapter 7, “Does the Bible Contradict Itself?,” of the book The Bible—God’s Word or Man’s? published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    4. Scientific Accuracy

    Science has made great strides in modern times. As a result, old theories have given way to new ones. What was once accepted as fact may now be seen as myth. Science textbooks often need revision.
    THE Bible is not a science textbook. Yet, when it comes to scientific matters, the Bible is noteworthy not only for what it says but also for what it does not say.
    Free of unscientific views. Many mistaken beliefs gained wide acceptance in ancient times. Views about the earth ranged from the idea that it was flat to the notion that tangible substances or objects held it aloft. Long before science learned about the spread and prevention of disease, physicians employed some practices that were ineffective at best, lethal at worst. But not once in its more than 1,100 chapters does the Bible endorse any unscientific views or harmful practices.

    Far ahead of its time, the Bible correctly stated that the earth is circular and hangs “upon nothing”

    Scientifically sound statements. Some 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated that the earth is hanging “upon nothing.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah clearly referred to “the circle [or, sphere] of the earth.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) A spherical earth held in empty space without any visible or physical means of support—does not that description sound remarkably modern?
    Written about 1500 B.C.E., the Mosaic Law (found in the first five books of the Bible) contained sound laws regarding quarantining of the sick, treatment of dead bodies, and disposal of waste.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Partly as a result of turning powerful telescopes toward the heavens, scientists have concluded that the universe had a sudden “birth.” Not all scientists like the implications of this explanation. One professor noted: “A universe that began seems to demand a first cause; for who could imagine such an effect without a sufficient cause?” Yet, long before telescopes, the very first verse of the Bible plainly stated: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Even though it is an ancient book and touches on many subjects, the Bible contains no scientific inaccuracies. Does not such a book merit, at the very least, our consideration?^
    ^ For more examples of the Bible’s scientific accuracy, see pages 18-21 of the brochure A Book for All People, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    5. Fulfilled Prophecy

    Imagine a weather forecaster who has a long record of being right—every time. If he predicted rain, would you carry an umbrella?
    THE Bible is filled with predictions, or prophecies.** Its record, as documented by history, is clear. Bible prophecy is always right.
    Distinguishing features. Bible prophecies are often specific and have been fulfilled down to the smallest of details. They usually involve matters of great importance and predict the opposite of what those living at the time of the writing might have been expecting.
    The Bible accurately foretold that a leader named Cyrus would conquer mighty Babylon

    An outstanding example. Strategically built astride the Euphrates River, ancient Babylon has been called “the political, religious, and cultural centre of the ancient Orient.” About 732 B.C.E., the prophet Isaiah penned an ominous prophecy—Babylon would fall. Isaiah provided specifics: A leader named “Cyrus” would be the conqueror, the protective waters of the Euphrates would “dry up,” and the city’s gates would “not be shut.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Some 200 years later, on October 5, 539 B.C.E., the prophecy was fulfilled in all its details. Greek historian Herodotus (fifth century B.C.E.) confirmed the manner of Babylon’s fall.##
    A bold detail. Isaiah made a further startling prediction regarding Babylon: “She will never be inhabited.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) To predict permanent desolation for a sprawling city occupying a strategic location was bold indeed. You would normally expect that such a city would be rebuilt if ruined. Although Babylon lingered on for a while after its conquest, Isaiah’s words eventually came true. Today the site of ancient Babylon “is flat, hot, deserted and dusty,” reports Smithsonian magazine.
    It is awesome to contemplate the magnitude of Isaiah’s prophecy. What he foretold would be the equivalent of predicting the exact manner in which a modern city, such as New York or London, would be destroyed 200 years from now and then emphatically stating that it would never again be inhabited. Of course, most remarkable is the fact that Isaiah’s prophecy came true!%%
    In this series of articles, we have considered some of the evidence that has convinced millions of people that the Bible is trustworthy. They therefore look to it as a reliable guide to direct their steps. Why not learn more about the Bible so that you can decide for yourself whether you too can trust it?
    ** Weather forecasts are likelihoods. Bible prophecy is inspired by God, who can maneuver events if he chooses to do so.
    ## For more details regarding the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy, see pages 27-29 of the brochure A Book for All People, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    %% For more examples of Bible prophecies and the historical facts documenting their fulfillment, see pages 117-33 of the book The Bible—God’s Word or Man’s? published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

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    Default does science contradict the genesis account?

    The Bible’s Viewpoint
    Does Science
    Contradict the
    Genesis Account?



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    MANY people claim that science disproves the Bible’s account of creation. But the real contradiction is between science and, not the Bible, but the opinions of so-called Christian Fundamentalists. Some of these groups falsely assert that according to the Bible, all physical creation was produced in six 24-hour days some 10,000 years ago.
    The Bible, however, does not support such a conclusion. If it did, then many scientific discoveries over the past hundred years would indeed discredit the Bible. A careful study of the Bible text reveals no conflict with established scientific facts. For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses disagree with “Christian” Fundamentalists and many [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. The following shows what the Bible really teaches.
    When Was “the Beginning”?

    The Genesis account opens with the simple, powerful statement: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Bible scholars agree that this verse describes an action separate from the creative days recounted from verse 3 onward. The implication is profound. According to the Bible’s opening statement, the universe, including our planet Earth, was in existence for an indefinite time before the creative days began.
    Geologists estimate that the earth is approximately 4 billion years old, and astronomers calculate that the universe may be as much as 15 billion years old. Do these findings—or their potential future refinements—contradict [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]? No. The Bible does not specify the actual age of “the heavens and the earth.” Science does not disprove the Biblical text.
    How Long Were the Creative Days?

    What about the length of the creative days? Were they literally 24 hours long? Some claim that because Moses—the writer of Genesis—later referred to the day that followed the six creative days as a model for the weekly Sabbath, each of the creative days must be literally 24 hours long. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Does the wording of Genesis support this conclusion?
    No, it does not. The fact is that the Hebrew word translated “day” can mean various lengths of time, not just a 24-hour period. For example, when summarizing God’s creative work, Moses refers to all six creative days as one day. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) In addition, on the first creative day, “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Here, only a portion of a 24-hour period is defined by the term “day.” Certainly, there is no basis in Scripture for arbitrarily stating that each creative day was 24 hours long.
    How long, then, were the creative days? The wording of Genesis chapters [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] indicates that considerable lengths of time were involved.
    Creations Appear Gradually

    Moses wrote his account in Hebrew, and he wrote it from the perspective of a person standing on the surface of the earth. These two facts, combined with the knowledge that the universe existed before the beginning of the creative periods, or “days,” help to defuse much of the controversy surrounding the creation account. How so?

    Genesis does not teach
    that the universe was created
    in a short period of time
    in the relatively
    recent past

    A careful consideration of the Genesis account reveals that events starting during one “day” continued into one or more of the following days. For example, before the first creative “day” started, light from the already existing sun was somehow prevented from reaching the earth’s surface, possibly by thick clouds. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) During the first “day,” this barrier began to clear, allowing diffused light to penetrate the atmosphere.*
    On the second “day,” the atmosphere evidently continued to clear, creating a space between the thick clouds above and the ocean below. On the fourth “day,” the atmosphere had gradually cleared to such an extent that the sun and the moon were made to appear “in the expanse of the heavens.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) In other words, from the perspective of a person on earth, the sun and moon began to be discernible. These events happened gradually.
    The Genesis account also relates that as the atmosphere continued to clear, flying creatures—including insects and membrane-winged creatures—started to appear on the fifth “day.” However, the Bible indicates that during the sixth “day,” God was still in the process of “forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Clearly, the Bible’s language makes room for the possibility of some major events during each “day,” or creative period, to have occurred gradually rather than instantly, perhaps some of them even lasting into the following creative “days.”
    According to Their Kinds

    Does this progressive appearance of plants and animals imply that God used evolution to produce the vast diversity of living things? No. The record clearly states that God created all the basic “kinds” of plant and animal life. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ], [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Were these original “kinds” of plants and animals programmed with the ability to adapt to changing environmental conditions? What defines the boundary of a “kind”? The Bible does not say. However, it does state that living creatures “swarmed forth according to their kinds.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) This statement implies that there is a limit to the amount of variation that can occur within a “kind.” Both the fossil record and modern research support the idea that the fundamental categories of plants and animals have changed little over vast periods of time.
    Contrary to the claims of some Fundamentalists, Genesis does not teach that the universe, including the earth and all living things on it, was created in a short period of time in the relatively recent past. Rather, the description in Genesis of the creation of the universe and the appearance of life on earth harmonizes with many recent scientific discoveries.
    Because of their philosophical beliefs, many scientists reject the Bible’s declaration that God created all things. Interestingly, however, in the ancient Bible book of Genesis, Moses wrote that the universe had a beginning and that life appeared in stages, progressively, over periods of time. How could Moses gain access to such scientifically accurate information some 3,500 years ago? There is one logical explanation. The One with the power and wisdom to create the heavens and the earth could certainly give Moses such advanced knowledge. This gives weight to the Bible’s claim that it is “inspired of God.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

    “In the beginning
    God created the heavens
    and the earth.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    * In the description of what happened on the first “day,” the Hebrew word used for light is ’ohr, light in a general sense; but concerning the fourth “day,” the word used is ma·’ohr´, which refers to the source of light.

    HAVE YOU WONDERED?

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    RECONCILING Science and Religion


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    "Science and religion [are] no longer seen as incompatible."— The Daily Telegraph, London, May 26, 1999.
    BOTH science and religion, in their noblest forms, involve the search for truth. Science discovers a world of magnificent order, a universe that contains distinctive marks of intelligent design. True religion makes these discoveries meaningful by teaching that the mind of the Creator lies behind the design manifest in the physical world.
    "I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion," says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
    What will help one to reconcile science and religion?

    Science has discovered a world full of distinctive marks of intelligent design
    An Enduring Quest

    Accept the limits: No end is in sight in our quest for answers about the infinite universe, space, and time. Biologist Lewis Thomas noted: "There will be no end to this process, being the insatiably curious species that we are, exploring, looking around and trying to understand things. We're not ever going to get it solved. I can't imagine any terminal point where everyone will breathe a sigh and will say, 'Now we understand the whole thing.' It's going to remain beyond us."
    Similarly, when it comes to religious truth, the reach is boundless. One of the Bible writers, Paul, stated: "Now we see only puzzling reflections in a mirror . . . My knowledge now is partial."—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ], The New English Bible.
    Partial knowledge concerning both scientific and religious questions, however, does not prevent us from reaching sound conclusions based on the facts we have. We don't need a detailed knowledge of the origin of the sun in order to be absolutely sure that it is going to rise tomorrow.
    Let the known facts speak: In the quest for answers, we need to be guided by sound principles. Unless we stick to the highest standards of evidence, we can easily be misled in our search for scientific and religious truth. Realistically, none of us can begin to evaluate all scientific knowledge and ideas, which today fill huge libraries. On the other hand, the Bible provides a manageable compendium of spiritual teachings for our consideration. The Bible is well supported by known facts.*
    However, concerning knowledge in general, earnest effort is required to distinguish between fact and speculation, between reality and deception—in both science and religion. As the Bible writer Paul advised, we need to reject "the contradictions of the falsely called 'knowledge.'" ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) To reconcile science and the Bible, we must let the facts speak for themselves, thereby avoiding conjecture and speculation, and examine how each fact supports and adds to the other.
    For example, when we understand that the Bible uses the term "day" to represent various periods of time, we see that the account of the six creative days in Genesis need not conflict with the scientific conclusion that the age of the earth is about four and a half billion years. According to the Bible, the earth existed for an unstated period before the creative days began. (See the box "The Creative Days—24 Hours Each?") Even if science corrects itself and suggests a different age for our planet, the statements made in the Bible still hold true. Instead of contradicting the Bible, science in this and many other cases actually provides us with voluminous supplemental information about the physical world, both present and past.
    The Creative Days—24 Hours Each?

    Some fundamentalists claim that creationism rather than evolution explains pre-human history. They assert that all physical creation was produced in just six days of 24 hours each sometime between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago. But in doing so, they promote an unscriptural teaching that has caused many to ridicule the Bible.
    Is a day in the Bible always literally 24 hours in length? [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] speaks of "the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." This one day encompasses all six of the creative days of [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. According to Bible usage, a day is a measured period of time and can be a thousand years or many thousands of years. The Bible's creative days allow for thousands of years of time each. Further, the earth was already in existence before the creative days began. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) On this point, therefore, the Bible account is compatible with true science.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Commenting on claims that the creative days were only 24 literal hours in length, molecular biologist Francis Collins remarks: "Creationism has done more harm to serious notions of belief than anything in modern history."
    Faith, not credulity: The Bible provides us with knowledge of God and his purposes that cannot be gleaned from any other source. Why should we trust it? The Bible itself invites us to test its accuracy. Consider its historical authenticity, its practicality, the candor of its writers, and its integrity. By investigating the accuracy of the Bible, including statements of a scientific nature and, even more convincingly, the unerring fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies throughout the ages and into our present day, one can acquire firm faith in it as the Word of God. Faith in the Bible is not credulity but a proven confidence in the accuracy of Scriptural statements.
    Respect science; acknowledge belief: Jehovah's Witnesses invite open-minded people, both scientific and religious, to share in a sincere quest for truth in both realms. In their congregations the Witnesses nurture a healthy respect for science and its proven findings as well as a profound belief that religious truth can be found only in the Bible, which forthrightly and with abundant evidence declares itself to be the Word of God. The apostle Paul stated: "When you received God's word, which you heard from us, you accepted it, not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God."—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Of course, as with science, damaging falsehoods and practices have infiltrated religion. Thus, there is true religion and false religion. That is why many people have left organized, mainstream religion to become members of the Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. They have been disappointed by the unwillingness of their previous religions to disavow human tradition and myth in favor of discovered or revealed truth.
    What is more, true Christians find real meaning and purpose in life, based on an intimate knowledge of the Creator, as he is revealed in the Bible, and of his expressed intentions for humankind and the planet we live on. Jehovah's Witnesses have been satisfied with reasonable, Bible-based answers to such questions as, Why are we here? Where are we going? They would be more than glad to share these insights with you.
    Jehovah's Witnesses nurture respect for true science and belief in the Bible

    Has Science Taken the Moral High Ground?

    Understandably, religion has been rejected by many people of science for its resistance to scientific progress, its dismal record, and its hypocrisy and cruelty. Professor of microbiology John Postgate points out: "The world's religions have . . . brought the horrors of human sacrifice, crusades, pogroms and inquisitions. In the modern world this darker side of religion has become dangerous. For unlike science, religion is not neutral."
    Comparing that with the assumed rationality, objectivity, and discipline of science, Postgate claims that "science has come to occupy the high ground of morality."
    Has science really seized the moral high ground? The answer is no. Postgate himself admits that "scientific communities have their share of jealousy, greed, prejudice and envy." He adds that "a few scientists have shown themselves capable of murder in the name of research, as happened in Nazi Germany and Japanese prison camps." And when National Geographic assigned an investigative reporter to find out how a fossil hoax ended up in its pages, the reporter spoke of "a tale of misguided secrecy and misplaced confidence, of rampant egos clashing, self-aggrandizement, wishful thinking, naive assumptions, human error, stubbornness, manipulation, backbiting, lying, [and] corruption."
    And, of course, it is science that has given mankind horrific instruments of warfare, such as weapons-grade disease organisms, poison gas, missiles, "smart" bombs, and nuclear bombs.

    * See The Bible—God's Word or Man's? published by Jehovah's Witnesses.

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    Ha! I knew I was interpreting the bible better than you.

    Ezekiel 26 (Contemporary English Version)

    Ezekiel 26
    Judgment on the City of Tyre
    1Eleven years [a] after King Jehoiachin and the rest of us had been led away as prisoners to Babylonia, the LORD spoke to me on the first day of the month. He said: 2Ezekiel, son of man, the people of the city of Tyre [b] have celebrated Jerusalem's defeat by singing, "Jerusalem has fallen!
    It used to be powerful,

    a center of trade.

    Now the city is shattered,

    and we will take its place."

    3Because the people of Tyre have sung that song, I have the following warning for them: I am the LORD God, and I am now your enemy! I will send nations to attack you, like waves crashing against the shore. 4They will tear down your city walls and defense towers. I will sweep away the ruins until all that's left of you is a bare rock, 5where fishermen can dry their nets along the coast. I promise that you will be robbed 6and that the people who live in your towns along the coast will be killed. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

    7King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia is the world's most powerful king, and I will send him to attack you. He will march from the north with a powerful army, including horses and chariots and cavalry troops. 8First, he will attack your towns along the coast and kill the people who live there. Then he will build dirt ramps up to the top of your city walls and set up rows of shields around you. 9He will command some of his troops to use large wooden poles to beat down your walls, while others use iron rods to knock down your watchtowers. 10He will have so many horses that the dust they stir up will seem like a thick fog. And as his chariots and cavalry approach, even the walls will shake, especially when he proudly enters your ruined city. 11His troops will ride through your streets, killing people left and right, and your strong columns will crumble to the ground. 12The troops will steal your valuable possessions; they will break down your walls, and crush your expensive houses. Then the stones and wood and all the remains will be dumped into the sea. 13You will have no reason to sing or play music on harps, 14because I will turn you into a bare rock where fishermen can dry their nets. And you will never rebuild your city. I, the LORD God, make this promise.

    15The people of the nations up and down the coast will shudder when they hear your screams and moans of death. 16The kings will step down from their thrones, then take off their royal robes and fancy clothes, and sit on the ground, trembling. They will be so shocked at the news of your defeat that they will shake in fear 17and sing this funeral song:

    "The great city beside the sea

    is destroyed! [c] Its people once ruled the coast

    and terrified everyone there.

    18But now Tyre is in ruins,

    and the people on the coast

    stare at it in horror

    and tremble in fear."

    19I, the LORD God, will turn you into a ghost-town. The ocean depths will rise over you 20and carry you down to the world of the dead, where you will join people of ancient times and towns ruined long ago. You will stay there and never again be a city filled with people. [d] 21You will die a horrible death! People will come looking for your city, but it will never be found. I, the LORD, have spoken.


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    And this is from a bible website! I knew your translation didn't quite add up to the actual words in the bible. It contradicted itself in order to make it seem true.

    = failed prophecy. Argument over.

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    Hey LJ are you atheist or agnostic?

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    Originally Posted by StreetDreams21
    Hey LJ are you atheist or agnostic?
    I am an atheist.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Ha! I knew I was interpreting the bible better than you.

    Ezekiel 26 (Contemporary English Version)

    Ezekiel 26
    Judgment on the City of Tyre
    1Eleven years [a] after King Jehoiachin and the rest of us had been led away as prisoners to Babylonia, the LORD spoke to me on the first day of the month. He said: 2Ezekiel, son of man, the people of the city of Tyre [b] have celebrated Jerusalem's defeat by singing, "Jerusalem has fallen!
    It used to be powerful,

    a center of trade.

    Now the city is shattered,

    and we will take its place."

    3Because the people of Tyre have sung that song, I have the following warning for them: I am the LORD God, and I am now your enemy! I will send nations to attack you, like waves crashing against the shore. 4They will tear down your city walls and defense towers. I will sweep away the ruins until all that's left of you is a bare rock, 5where fishermen can dry their nets along the coast. I promise that you will be robbed 6and that the people who live in your towns along the coast will be killed. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

    7King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia is the world's most powerful king, and I will send him to attack you. He will march from the north with a powerful army, including horses and chariots and cavalry troops. 8First, he will attack your towns along the coast and kill the people who live there. Then he will build dirt ramps up to the top of your city walls and set up rows of shields around you. 9He will command some of his troops to use large wooden poles to beat down your walls, while others use iron rods to knock down your watchtowers. 10He will have so many horses that the dust they stir up will seem like a thick fog. And as his chariots and cavalry approach, even the walls will shake, especially when he proudly enters your ruined city. 11His troops will ride through your streets, killing people left and right, and your strong columns will crumble to the ground. 12The troops will steal your valuable possessions; they will break down your walls, and crush your expensive houses. Then the stones and wood and all the remains will be dumped into the sea. 13You will have no reason to sing or play music on harps, 14because I will turn you into a bare rock where fishermen can dry their nets. And you will never rebuild your city. I, the LORD God, make this promise.

    15The people of the nations up and down the coast will shudder when they hear your screams and moans of death. 16The kings will step down from their thrones, then take off their royal robes and fancy clothes, and sit on the ground, trembling. They will be so shocked at the news of your defeat that they will shake in fear 17and sing this funeral song:

    "The great city beside the sea

    is destroyed! [c] Its people once ruled the coast

    and terrified everyone there.

    18But now Tyre is in ruins,

    and the people on the coast

    stare at it in horror

    and tremble in fear."

    19I, the LORD God, will turn you into a ghost-town. The ocean depths will rise over you 20and carry you down to the world of the dead, where you will join people of ancient times and towns ruined long ago. You will stay there and never again be a city filled with people. [d] 21You will die a horrible death! People will come looking for your city, but it will never be found. I, the LORD, have spoken.


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    And this is from a bible website! I knew your translation didn't quite add up to the actual words in the bible. It contradicted itself in order to make it seem true.

    = failed prophecy. Argument over.
    Nothing you have said here changes anything. Nations (plural) did attack Tyre. It is now a bare rock for nets (fishing) and it's not called by Tyre any longer, and it's power and prestige was never rebuilt. Sorry, but you cannot possibly outsmart God. You're exercise in hermeneutical gymnastics is pretty fun to watch at times though, admittedly

    Have another prophecy that has come true ( I wonder how you will try and flip this one)

    What I will do here is interpret it properly for you, and see if you still stand defiantly as if it is not happening today. Because this prophecy concerns the very time we live in. So even a casual observer SHOULD see this.

    Isaiah 2: 2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream.

    3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.

    4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

    Now here goes.
    And it must occur in the final part of the days (THIS MEANS RIGHT NOW AND FOR THE PAST 95 YEARS[)
    that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. Since it says the mountain is Jehovah's house, it must clearly then refer to Worship of him, since that is where worship of Jehovah is done. The hills refer to other forms of worship in the world, that will never be able to match the pure worship of the True God. And Jehovah's house most certainly hold some of every nationality on earth. So, far so good. Let's continue.


    And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. So we have many peoples all walks wanting to serve Jehovah, and be instructed by him. How can one be instructed by God? diligent prayer and peering into his word, the Bible, daily. That is the only way you can walk in his paths, which 1 group of people on earth try and do, without watering down his moral standards. So still, so far so good.


    And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. Now comes the refinement of Jehovah. Once you seek him, and learn his word, will either proceed to be refined, or spit out, meaning you do not want the refinement. This is setting matters straight. Especially in light of the fact that they will not lift of sword against nation, nor even learn war anymore. Now, Jehovah's witnesses are made up of every nation on earth, and are well known throughout the world for their stance on peace and not being involved in any wars. Even in the face of prison sentences, beatings, and in some places, even killings.

    Please, find another faith that this all would apply to. Or some way that this does not apply at all to any peoples. I'm interested.

    And while at it, let's compare Jehovah's people's stand for true worship, versus what is happening in other sects of Christendom in our current age, to further see how The Mountain of the House Of Jehovah stands out. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Nothing you have said here changes anything. Nations (plural) did attack Tyre. It is now a bare rock for nets (fishing) and it's not called by Tyre any longer, and it's power and prestige was never rebuilt. Sorry, but you cannot possibly outsmart God. You're exercise in hermeneutical gymnastics is pretty fun to watch at times though, admittedly
    This is beyond ridiculous. You are certifiable. And the fact that you can not accept reality proves how delusional you are and makes it pointless to debate with you any longer.

    I also find it interesting that you conveniently and consistently omit the latter half of Ezekiel 26. This part, without doubt, proves the prophecy to be false. It states that Tyre will be "destroyed to bare rock, never to be rebuilt, washed to the sea, never to be inhabited and will never be found again". Essentially wiped off the face of the earth forever. This never happened. There is no part of this passage that says Tyre will never become a powerful and prestigious society again. I don’t know how you can misinterpret this. It is plain as day that the prophecy states that Tyre will be destroyed forever and people will never live there again.

    It is clearly false and you are purposely changing the bible to make it fit reality. Shame on you. I thought you guys were supposed to be the moral ones. I really don't know how you can continue to knock on people's doors, look them in the eyes and tell them this prophecy is true and still have a straight face.

    Also:
    History states that rather than destroy the city completely, Alexander peopled it with new colonists and appointed a new king over Tyre. The city revived so rapidly that 18 years later it had the strength to hold out for 15 months against one of Alexander's former generals (Nina Jidejian, Tyre Through the Ages, Beirut, 1969, pp. 80-81). History further declare that in the Roman period Tyre's "population overflowed its bounds and occupied a strip of the opposite mainland including the ancient Palaetyrus" (Encyclopaedia Biblica, p. 5,226).

    Bible prophecies false….check



    In that 3 page Jehovah’s Witness propaganda excerpt you copied and pasted, it essentially confesses that you interpret and change the bible any way you like so it keeps up with reality (e.g. God changes the passage of time). What you don’t account for is in Genesis the bible says god created plants. Then the next day he creates the seasons and day and night on earth. Plants cannot exist without day and night. So, if 1000 years is 1 day to god, plants cannot exist for 1000 years without the seasons and day/night. = bible wrong about creation.

    But with your rational, God created the universe, changed time from 1 day to equal 2.8 billions years, created plants, changed 1 day to equal 1 day, created the seasons and day/night, then again changed 1 day to equal 2.8 billion years, created everything else and then changed 1 day to equal 1 day. Yeah, sure. That makes sense. SMH.


    Bible wrong about creation….check


    You really have nothing left to argue for your side. Give it up. You are wrong. The bible is wrong about creation and its prophecies are false. This is a fact. Plain and simple. Any reasonable, rational and sane person can see this. But you are neither. So keep believing what you want. Keep making **** up to make it seem like the bible is right.

    I only wish you didn’t force this crap on your children. At least allow them to get a proper education and objectively make the decision for themselves.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Dec 20, 2009 at 14:50.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    This is beyond ridiculous. You are certifiable. And the fact that you can not accept reality proves how delusional you are and makes it pointless to debate with you any longer.

    I also find it interesting that you conveniently and consistently omit the latter half of Ezekiel 26. This part, without doubt, proves the prophecy to be false. It states that Tyre will be "destroyed to bare rock, never to be rebuilt, washed to the sea, never to be inhabited and will never be found again". Essentially wiped off the face of the earth forever. This never happened. There is no part of this passage that says Tyre will never become a powerful and prestigious society again. I don’t know how you can misinterpret this. It is plain as day that the prophecy states that Tyre will be destroyed forever and people will never live there again.

    It is clearly false and you are purposely changing the bible to make it fit reality. Shame on you. I thought you guys were supposed to be the moral ones. I really don't know how you can continue to knock on people's doors, look them in the eyes and tell them this prophecy is true and still have a straight face.
    19I, the LORD God, will turn you into a ghost-town. The ocean depths will rise over you 20and carry you down to the world of the dead, where you will join people of ancient times and towns ruined long ago. You will stay there and never again be a city filled with people. [d] 21You will die a horrible death! People will come looking for your city, but it will never be found. I, the LORD, have spoken.

    Is this the part you refer too? Because if it is, I'm lost as to how the prophecy is wrong. Tyre is no longer called Tyre, and I'm sure at the time it was in it's prime, it held more than 120k people. Staten Island is probably a smaller place than modern day Tyre and by contrast in the country's 13th most populated city with over 400k. If Staten Island had only 120 k people, it certainly would look like a ghost town by comparison. Heck, I live here now and at times it appears that way now!

    You will stay there and never again be a city filled with people. This seems to imply that Tyre would survive the onslaught of wars and survive, but never fully recover. It still still exists(You will stay there) 120k people (not really a lot, kinda ghost town ish). What's the problem? Why can this not be interpreted this way? Why do you say never be inhabited? I looked over the whole passage from that Bible website, and uninhabited is nowhere to be found there. Why did you write such a thing, when My 5 year old can understand that if a place becomes a drying yard for dragnets, some one has to lay them???????????????????????





    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    In that 3 page Jehovah’s Witness propaganda excerpt you copied and pasted, it essentially confesses that you interpret and change the bible any way you like so it keeps up with reality (e.g. God changes the passage of time). What you don’t account for is in Genesis the bible says god created plant Then the next day he creates the seasons and day and night on earth. Plants cannot exist without day and night. So, if 1000 years is 1 day to god, plants cannot exist for 1000 years without the seasons and day/night. = bible wrong about creation.

    But with your rational, God created the universe, changed time from 1 day to equal 2.8 billions years, created plants, changed 1 day to equal 1 day, created the seasons and day/night, then again changed 1 day to equal 2.8 billion years, created everything else and then changed 1 day to equal 1 day. Yeah, sure. That makes sense. SMH.
    Actually, all it says is that the Hebrew word for Day does not have to be a strict 24 hour rule. It can apply to diff lengths of time and gave valid examples. That should not be too difficult for a man to of your educated status to understand. But again, I keep saying you're a man, but you can't be, you have monkey genes. That may explain it.


    You wrote "What you don’t account for is in Genesis the bible says god created plant Then the next day he creates the seasons and day and night on earth" Let's see here... Gen 1:
    2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.



    So during the first day of creation, the already created earth was in deep darkness. What happens next?




    3 And God proceeded to say: “Let light come to be.” Then there came to be light. 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness.

    So God called for light to come upon the earth, and even made a division between the light and dark. let's continue.

    5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.

    You said this "What you don’t account for is in Genesis the bible says god created plant Then the next day he creates the seasons and day and night on earth. Plants cannot exist without day and night"

    You're right, plants cannot exist without day and night. Good thing God allowed for such a provision before he made plants! Let's see when God made plants, shall we? Now which day was it.. Ah! Here goes!

    Gen 1:11 And God went on to say: “Let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yielding fruit according to their kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth.” And it came to be so. 12 And the earth began to put forth grass, vegetation bearing seed according to its kind and trees yielding fruit, the seed of which is in it according to its kind. Then God saw that [it was] good. 13 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a third day.

    So let's recap, God causes light to come upon the earth, because the earth was already here, and it was already dark. he makes a division between light and dark. This would then eventually be what is necessary to sustain the plant life that would come TWO CREATIVE DAYS AFTER NIGHT AND DAY.

    So why then do you say this? "What you don’t account for is in Genesis the bible says god created plant Then the next day he creates the seasons and day and night on earth. Plants cannot exist without day and night"?


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You really have nothing left to argue for your side. Give it up. You are wrong. The bible is wrong about creation and its prophecies are false. This is a fact. Plain and simple. Any reasonable, rational and sane person can see this. But you are neither. So keep believing what you want. Keep making **** up to make it seem like the bible is right.
    I normally would be insulted, But now that I remembered what you are, and I'm impressed a monkey can be so intelligent!!!

    Listen Lucy, I'm trying my best here, ok? I think the Bible presents very rational explanations to things. It's quite evident that you just do not fully understand it, as with your "day and night, plant" Fail. Along with your lack of correct prophecy interpretation. But I get it now, you're smart for a monkey, but still a monkey.


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I only wish you didn’t force this crap on your children. At least allow them to get a proper education and objectively make the decision for themselves.
    k, at this I am insulted. Since when can a MAN take orders from a monkey, on raising a human?

    I've asked on more than one occasion for you to keep all your thoughts on the topic. I don't tell you what is appropriate for you and yours, so please, oblige me. This is like the 10th time you've mentioned how I should raise my kids. It's not necessary. When I go school shopping for them, you're not there pitching in. When it's time to eat, you donate nada. My son, 9 months, can only take Similac Allimentum, because of stomach sensitivity. 28 bucks a can. He goes through that every 3 days or so. You helping out? No. So that tells me you don't give a hoot about me, or mine. So stop. Again, not necessary. I will raise my kids according to what I feel is best, and that is my God given right. As is yours.

    But, just so you know, Jehovah implores that all parents to raise their kids to know him. However, when they get of age, they have to make their own conscious choice to serve him, or go their own way. All I am essentially doing is giving them a good start. But my kids go to normal school, get good grades, and sometimes act a fool like all other normal kids. Hence, they are not deprived of what you call " a proper education"

    And I just laughed really hard because this advice comes from a man who thinks he has monkey genes.
    Last edited by Knicks4lyfe; Dec 21, 2009 at 00:59.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    [You will stay there and never again be a city filled with people. This seems to imply that Tyre would survive the onslaught of wars and survive, but never fully recover. It still still exists(You will stay there) 120k people (not really a lot, kinda ghost town ish). What's the problem? Why can this not be interpreted this way? Why do you say never be inhabited? I looked over the whole passage from that Bible website, and uninhabited is nowhere to be found there. Why did you write such a thing, when My 5 year old can understand that if a place becomes a drying yard for dragnets, some one has to lay them???????????????????????
    No. If you look at the previous statement it says "The ocean depths will rise over you 20and carry you down to the world of the dead, where you will join people of ancient times and towns ruined long ago".

    It then says...

    "You will stay there and never again be a city filled with people. [d] 21You will die a horrible death! People will come looking for your city, but it will never be found."

    Meaning it will stay a ruined, dead city. This is pretty easy to understand. Since you keep calling me a monkey, and since I can understand the bible better than you...what does that make you?


    This is the problem you have with interpreting the bible. You just look at one word or one sentence and that's it. You don't put them in the context they were meant. Which leads to you misunderstanding the bible all the time.



    Here is the English Standard Version:

    19"For thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a city laid waste, like the cities that are not inhabited,(AJ) when I bring up the deep over you, and the great waters cover you, 20then(AK) I will make you go down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the world below, among ruins from of old,(AL) with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set beauty in the land of the living. 21I will bring you(AM) to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more.(AN) Though you be sought for, you will never be found again, declares the Lord GOD."


    Why is this so hard for you to understand? What's your problem? The prophecy is false. You have no argument. Just admit it. You're wrong.

    Honestly man. How can you knock on people's doors, look them in the eyes and tell them this is a true prophecy and still keep a straight face. Deep down, inside you know you are not telling the truth.

    Like I said before, you are manipulating the bible for your own wants. The prophecy clearly calls for the destruction of Tyre. To be wiped off the face of the earth, to never be inhabited and to never be found. I think it's funny when you say I can't understand the bible. Clearly, I can understand it better than you.



    Genesis debate:

    It says he creates the seasons after he creates plants. Plants cannot survive without the different seasons. = wrong about creation.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Dec 21, 2009 at 10:07.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    No. If you look at the previous statement it says "The ocean depths will rise over you 20and carry you down to the world of the dead, where you will join people of ancient times and towns ruined long ago".

    It then says...

    "You will stay there and never again be a city filled with people. [d] 21You will die a horrible death! People will come looking for your city, but it will never be found."

    Meaning it will stay a ruined, dead city. This is pretty easy to understand. Since you keep calling me a monkey, and since I can understand the bible better than you...what does that make you?


    This is the problem you have with interpreting the bible. You just look at one word or one sentence and that's it. You don't put them in the context they were meant. Which leads to you misunderstanding the bible all the time.



    Here is the English Standard Version:

    19"For thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a city laid waste, like the cities that are not inhabited,(AJ) when I bring up the deep over you, and the great waters cover you, 20then(AK) I will make you go down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the world below, among ruins from of old,(AL) with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set beauty in the land of the living. 21I will bring you(AM) to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more.(AN) Though you be sought for, you will never be found again, declares the Lord GOD."


    Why is this so hard for you to understand? What's your problem? The prophecy is false. You have no argument. Just admit it. You're wrong.

    Honestly man. How can you knock on people's doors, look them in the eyes and tell them this is a true prophecy and still keep a straight face. Deep down, inside you know you are not telling the truth.

    Like I said before, you are manipulating the bible for your own wants. The prophecy clearly calls for the destruction of Tyre. To be wiped off the face of the earth, to never be inhabited and to never be found. I think it's funny when you say I can't understand the bible. Clearly, I can understand it better than you.
    Actually, that's not at all what We're doing. We happen to take into account the entire prophecy. If we listen to your version, then there would be no room for the entire prophecy. You say Tyre, should not exist, no one should ever live there and that's that. However, then that would not be the completion of the prophecy, because it says that it must become a yard for nets. That means there will have to still be activity there. So then clearly the destruction cannot be one of complete and utter annihilation. It leaves room for what Tyre now is.

    Also, I am now made to understand that their was a mainland and an island that made up all of Tyre. The mainland was utterly destroyed by Neb, but the Island remains down to now. Alex the great then destroyed the Island, using debris from the ruined mainland to make a causeway to get to the Island and destroy it.

    Tyre is now called Sur, a place none of us have ever been to, or probably ever heard of until reading about this prophecy. Even you have mentioned that the inhabitants make a living basically fishing. It's a seaport.

    So Tyre goes from a world leading commercial capitol, gets pummeled by many nations, rebuilds, gets destroyed, rebuilds until its now not even called Tyre, and it is just a seaport. All of these things the prophecy accounted for. You just want it to be a fail. But the bottom line is, if the prophecy says it must become a drying yard for nets, and that is what it is today, then only a fool would continue to say it should not exist. Because the prophecy says that it must, in order to become just what it is.

    for future reference. If you will try and disprove bible prophecy, you will have to account for the entire prophecy. You're explanation of it does not account for it. If God wanted it to be uninhabited, sure he would not have said it will become a seaport.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Genesis debate:

    It says he creates the seasons after he creates plants. Plants cannot survive without the different seasons. = wrong about creation.
    Now I know you're not as smart as you think you are.

    1:14 And God went on to say: “Let luminaries come to be in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night; and they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years.

    At this point, he is starting to divide the days. Most likely into 24 hr increments for purpose of life. And it does not say he created the seasons this day, it says the div between day and night, and the luminaries in heaven will now start to serve as SIGNS for seasons and days and years. That is different from saying God created seasons. This means the earth was just about ready for life. This is very reasonable since we can discern the day and night and season and times of year based on these things now.

    it is NOT to say that the necessary seasons were not around to support plant life, before this point. You are assuming as much. Clearly the SIGNS were to be for life on earth, as God would not need signs to discern the time of day or year, since he is the creator. Who would be able to discern signs of times of day or night and seasons and years? All forms of life on earth. This is why, after this day was complete, life was brought about. because the earth was now ready for it.

    fail.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Actually, that's not at all what We're doing. We happen to take into account the entire prophecy. If we listen to your version, then there would be no room for the entire prophecy. You say Tyre, should not exist, no one should ever live there and that's that. However, then that would not be the completion of the prophecy, because it says that it must become a yard for nets. That means there will have to still be activity there. So then clearly the destruction cannot be one of complete and utter annihilation. It leaves room for what Tyre now is.

    Also, I am now made to understand that their was a mainland and an island that made up all of Tyre. The mainland was utterly destroyed by Neb, but the Island remains down to now. Alex the great then destroyed the Island, using debris from the ruined mainland to make a causeway to get to the Island and destroy it.

    Tyre is now called Sur, a place none of us have ever been to, or probably ever heard of until reading about this prophecy. Even you have mentioned that the inhabitants make a living basically fishing. It's a seaport.

    So Tyre goes from a world leading commercial capitol, gets pummeled by many nations, rebuilds, gets destroyed, rebuilds until its now not even called Tyre, and it is just a seaport. All of these things the prophecy accounted for. You just want it to be a fail. But the bottom line is, if the prophecy says it must become a drying yard for nets, and that is what it is today, then only a fool would continue to say it should not exist. Because the prophecy says that it must, in order to become just what it is.

    for future reference. If you will try and disprove bible prophecy, you will have to account for the entire prophecy. You're explanation of it does not account for it. If God wanted it to be uninhabited, sure he would not have said it will become a seaport.
    Exactly!! You need to account for the whole prophecy! Which is what you are not doing. All you do is focus on "spreading nets" and don't account for the whole prophecy of Tyre being destroyed, never to be rebuilt, never inhabited and never found again.

    Besides, the term "spreading nets" is a metaphor referring to destroying Tyre to bare rock. People in those days would dry their nets on bare rock. Once again, you misunderstand the bible. You focus on one word and don't account for the context in which it was meant.

    Like you said, the prophecy doesn't make sense if it says destroy Tyre to bare rock, laid waste, never to be rebuilt, never to be inhabited, never to be found...but eventually to be rebuilt, where people live and fish. That's contradicitng itself and is not what the bible is saying. So again, you are manipulating the bible to make it seem true.

    It's hilarious that you say that I should take into account the whole prophecy, when clearly you are ignoring the whole premise of the prophecy. Just the part of "People will come looking for your city, but it will never be found" is false. The part of "so that you will not be inhabited" is false.

    What part of destroyed to bare rock, never to be rebuilt, never inhabited again and never to be found do you not understand? Why is this so difficult for you to see? Anybody can see that is what Ezekiel 26 is saying.

    But you don't want to see it. You change the meaning of the bible so it seems true. This is deceitful.

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    Going back to the basis of this thread....

    Evolution.

    Its biggest problem?

    Everyone thinks they understand it....

    Evolution is a theory....So is gravity. So is Einstein's theory of relativity, so is plate tectonics....

    All these theories are overwhelmingly true based on evidence...

    The earth is far far far older than 10k years... If the earth was only that old we'd be able to see Spain from NYC

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