WTF Is Going On?

I agree we haven't had a good defensive presence at Center since Kurt Thomas was playing out of position. I don't understand why we can't pick up a defensive center tho. Like someone at samuel de lamberts level. At the very least to clog up the middle on d to slow down the slashers a little bit.

Edit: I mean...we should at least make a run at Theo Ratliff.

I have no desire at all to get Hinrich in a sign and trade or anything else. He's simpy not that good and certainly not as productive as Lee.

We definitely have needed a big man to defend the paint for a long time, but it isn't any accident that we sucked when we had Marbury and Crawford over and above that need.

Crawford is not that efficient a scorer and played no defense.

Marbury was also not that efficient a scorer.

Anyone can score a lot of points if they take a lot of shots. That goes double if they have some athletic ability and create shots for themselves. However, there is a big difference between taking a lot of shots and scoring a lot of points vs. taking all smart shots and being an excellent shooter. The latter will have a very high TS%, draw fouls, be excellent on the FT line etc..

Billups doesn't have have fancy scoring stats, but he's great because he takes smart shots, draw fouls often, is terrific from beyond the 3 point line etc... So he gets a lot of points PER SHOT.

Those other guys take tons of shots, but many of them are stupid, they aren't that great as shooters etc... so they pile up points based on volume but get fewer points PER SHOT and hurt their team will all that stupidity.

Of course real novices look at POINT PER GAME, love them, and never really understand why their teams always suck. So they externalize it all and say it's the other players fault.

clumsy said:

I agree we haven't had a good defensive presence at Center since Kurt Thomas was playing out of position. I don't understand why we can't pick up a defensive center tho. Like someone at samuel de lamberts level. At the very least to clog up the middle on d to slow down the slashers a little bit.

Edit: I mean...we should at least make a run at Theo Ratliff.

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Darko??? :crossfingers:

Heinrich

NYKnicks15 said:

With Nate looking at a one year deal and if Lee doesnt sign one as well you can bet on a sign and trade with Chicago. Chicago wants him badly.. they wanted him when we drafted him. We would ask for Hinrich and they want to give us Tyrus Thomas. Well probably get Jerome James back in any deal woo hoo! ahaha I would welcome both Hinrich or Thomas. I have a feeling Thomas would excel in this system. and of course Hinrich would.


anything is possible at the moment. and its nice to be able to say that we actually have options for once.!

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Why would we want Hinrich?

His contract for this year is $9.5M, for 2010 $9M and for 2011 $8M. I think that is a problem.

TR1LL10N said:

Darko??? :crossfingers:

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sorry man not a dreamer...can't foresee darko even getting meaningful minutes this year. More important to force feed curry to ship his ass out.

We definitely need interior defense. But not just any defender/shot-blocker will do. Somebody that can run the floor well would be ideal.

Now that I think about it, Sean Williams is probably still available. There are rumors that NJ is going after Hakim Warrick which would leave Sean Williams on the out. He's worth taking a chance on. Low-cost contract and can run the floor well. He would excel in D'Antoni's system if he can stop being an idiot.

Unfortunately, I don't think Donnie or D'Antoni are willing to take a chance on him. Too bad.

my point is, what would you have done if you were donnies position,

nothing because nothing is all that he can do,
you cant squeeze blood out of a turnip man
and you certainly cant fool Gms into believing that the knicks have players worth trading for. Donnie did the right thing, he tested the market within his realm of finances, and that was it, was he supposed to keep his arms crossed and not go after kidd or hill who were available, he had to entertain the thought, or he would not of been doing his job.

There isnt a lebron or wade or bosh to be had this summer.
if that was the case he would be all over them as we speak throwing as much money as he can in their direction.

he went after the few FA's available, and played it safe as to not over pay any one.

good work donnie.

patience is a virtue.

clumsy said:

sorry man not a dreamer...can't foresee darko even getting meaningful minutes this year. More important to force feed curry to ship his ass out.

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I agree on Curry needing to be shipped ASAP. I do however think that Darko has the POTENTIAL to thrive in our system...after all he is a 7 footer who can run the floor, hit a jump shot and block shots. At the very least we can finally play a true center for better or worse. My prediction is that Darko has a career year and hopefully gets the most improved player award. Yes, I can dream...even if you can't.

i honestly do not know what the beef is.we all know what donnie's plan was when he got here.there is no need to be impatient.we got 1 season left to see if we become an instant championship contender with james in 2010, or wait for michael gilchrist in 2011(lol).

nothing has happened with the sessions situation becuase of the lee situation, nothing has happened with lee becuase of the 2010 plan.personally i'd rather have the opportunity to sign LBJ(no matter how much bitchassness has taken a hold of him) than sign a hardly all star in lee to a max deal.and don't talk about loyalty.lee is only loyal to his bank account.this is a business, and I'm on the knicks side of the business cause I'm a knicks fan.

the nightmare will soon be over.no need to panic when we're so close to not being what we've been for such a long time.

in the meantime, I believe both lee and nate will be re-signed, and i think hill will get dealt believe it or not.there's too much of a glut up front if lee returns, and the knicks need to get curry some playing time.

The truth is that Lebron isn't coming to NY in 2010. A year ago, I say he would have. Right now, Lebron exists in a state of humility, of the sort that keeps him up late at night, thinking on how much he can't do it alone.

As I said in my previous post to this thread, players like Lebron and Wade know that Crawford and Marbury were offensively talented players, like them, though not as the same level. They know that, if they come to the Knicks, they'll be surrounded by the same type of lazy, incompetent bigs.

Wade and James, in my opinion, are too experienced, coveted, and will be flooded with enough better offers (monetarily and otherwise), to go for anything the Knicks can offer.

They know that they'll be playing alongside bigs that can't help them on D, get rebounds for them, etc. They know they can at least get the Knicks an 8th seed entry into the playoffs, as opposed to what the Knicks were doing with Crawford and Marbury; but do you think this is what they want to incorporate into their respective basketball legacies?


The 2010 dream is just that, a dream. The Knicks would be well-served to focus on looking for intelligent, athletically-gifted players, the most beautiful thing you can see in this sport. The knicks need guys that box out, move the ball, move to their spots on time, help on D, etc.

OGKnickfan said:

The truth is that Lebron isn't coming to NY in 2010. A year ago, I say he would have. Right now, Lebron exists in a state of humility, of the sort that keeps him up late at night, thinking on how much he can't do it alone.

As I said in my previous post to this thread, players like Lebron and Wade know that Crawford and Marbury were offensively talented players, like them, though not as the same level. They know that, if they come to the Knicks, they'll be surrounded by the same type of lazy, incompetent bigs.

Wade and James, in my opinion, are too experienced, coveted, and will be flooded with enough better offers (monetarily and otherwise), to go for anything the Knicks can offer.

They know that they'll be playing alongside bigs that can't help them on D, get rebounds for them, etc. They know they can at least get the Knicks an 8th seed entry into the playoffs, as opposed to what the Knicks were doing with Crawford and Marbury; but do you think this is what they want to incorporate into their respective basketball legacies?


The 2010 dream is just that, a dream. The Knicks would be well-served to focus on looking for intelligent, athletically-gifted players, the most beautiful thing you can see in this sport. The knicks need guys that box out, move the ball, move to their spots on time, help on D, etc.

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OG I'd have to disagree...

1. The FA class is so talented that a players "leverage" is reduced inherently

2. Not too many teams will have cap space to "please them all" (greedy bastards)

3. Players don't NEED a big or surrounding cast to chase fame, success and the ever popular dollar which I may add...

4. A max contract is a max contract, and as I understand can only be eclipsed if they sign with their home team

My point is If we weren't part of only a hand full of teams that planned ahead and put ourselves in position to at least bid on a star player in 2010 we would still be unhappy.

So far (although I question D'Antoni's no defense) we observed the following:

Walsh got rid of Jerome James useless ass
Z-Bo's overblown contract
Crawfords' inconsistent ass

Most dead weight is almost gone.

I cant blame D'Antoni if he doesnt have the players he needs (every coach does need their type of players)

They improved the record slightly

and they got Something out of Jared Bumass Jeffries and Chris Bumass Duhon

+ Made N8 better (career year) and got Curry to lose weight (lol)

Sure we didn't make the playoffs but in retrospect NOT many 1st YEAR coaches GM combo's could have with the highest payroll/ [1 of the] lowest talented teams in the league

Just be patient...

At least we can say we are moving in position to become very good in the next few seasons be it slowly.

All it takes is one day, one good move or a few good moves and in a matter of minutes we could transform instantly. Isn't it good to know thats at least a possibility?

:smokin::smokin::smokin:

Can someone explain to me how you attract all star free agents when you have a team that doesn't play defense or even make an attempt at playing defense and can't win or finish games? So some how because it's New York everyone is going to come running next season right? Just like they did this off season? Oh wait, that didn't happen.
My point is there needs to be a back up plan. I give Donnie credit for not giving a max contract to Lee (Something Isiah would have done immediately) but, letting Lee go without acquiring a rebounder in his place would be an epic mistake. Letting Lee go will create another void. Instead of being a team that doesn't play defense, block shots and is inconsistent we will be a team that doesn't play defense, doesn't block shots or 'rebound' and is inconsistent. Maybe his thinking is Hill will be an adequate replacement. That's a gamble considering Hill will be a backup forward at best.

Maybe we should be patient but Walsh is putting it all on 2010. If this year doesn't pan out to be as big as the media would like us to believe, and I think it wont be, then what? 5 more years of mediocrity.

Red said:

OG I'd have to disagree...

1. The FA class is so talented that a players "leverage" is reduced inherently

2. Not too many teams will have cap space to "please them all" (greedy bastards)

3. Players don't NEED a big or surrounding cast to chase fame, success and the ever popular dollar which I may add...

4. A max contract is a max contract, and as I understand can only be eclipsed if they sign with their home team

My point is If we weren't part of only a hand full of teams that planned ahead and put ourselves in position to at least bid on a star player in 2010 we would still be unhappy.

So far (although I question D'Antoni's no defense) we observed the following:

Walsh got rid of Jerome James useless ass
Z-Bo's overblown contract
Crawfords' inconsistent ass

Most dead weight is almost gone.

I cant blame D'Antoni if he doesnt have the players he needs (every coach does need their type of players)

They improved the record slightly

and they got Something out of Jared Bumass Jeffries and Chris Bumass Duhon

+ Made N8 better (career year) and got Curry to lose weight (lol)

Sure we didn't make the playoffs but in retrospect NOT many 1st YEAR coaches GM combo's could have with the highest payroll/ [1 of the] lowest talented teams in the league

Just be patient...

At least we can say we are moving in position to become very good in the next few seasons be it slowly.

All it takes is one day, one good move or a few good moves and in a matter of minutes we could transform instantly. Isn't it good to know thats at least a possibility?

:smokin::smokin::smokin:

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You'd be right, except that we're talking about two of the three best players in the game, today: Lebron James and Dwyane Wade.

The money will be there, for the both of them... from numerous teams. They will definitely have their pick of places to play in. Unless NY proves itself a stable environment for them to flourish, I don't see them coming here.

Now, if you're talking about other FA's, like Bosh and Stoudamire, they can indeed be enticed with money. Wade and James, on the other hand, are going to get paid, period.

donchris said:

Maybe we should be patient but Walsh is putting it all on 2010. If this year doesn't pan out to be as big as the media would like us to believe, and I think it wont be, then what? 5 more years of mediocrity.

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5 more years of mediocrity beats the last seven years of being the joke of the NBA

Walsh's 2010 plan isn't the greatest but you know he'll at least get us to the playoffs in 2010 with whomever he signs. Yeah, Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudamire might not be the greatest players we all want, but they'd get us to the playoffs, which is way more than what Isiah can really say.

Where was this team going under Isiah? Stephon Marbury as our starting PG? A frontcourt of Curry, Lee, and Randolph? That team wasn't going anywhere and we all know that. At the very least Walsh is getting together a squad that might go to the playoffs in 2-3 years. Beats being the worst team in our division like we were for so long.

Put it this way if Walsh wasn't betting on 2010 we would all be blasting him for missing out on the greatest free agent class of all time...

I wonder why six (6) years ago the Pacers hired Larry Bird as their G.M.?
Who do we have as our G.M.? while Walsh vacation for the 2nd summer in a row. And Dantoni play politics by spending his summer with the Olympic team.

So far this offseason the best move Walsh made was resigning Nate Robinson.
Now the $3M he spent to get Douglas was wisely spent.

Board members u better hope like hell Walsh resign David Lee....this way our 8th pick in the future would be considered the best available player at that selection.

PG-Duhon
Combo-Guard-Nate & Douglas
SG-Empty, open for suggestions (Hughes)
SF-Harrington, Chandler, Gallo
PF-Lee & Hill
C-Curry & Darko

donchris said:

Can someone explain to me how you attract all star free agents when you have a team that doesn't play defense or even make an attempt at playing defense and can't win or finish games?

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Being able to stay in a game and losing it because we don't have a finisher actually is actually a factor that could attract Allstar-caliber players. Why else would you bring a go-to guy?

Right now our problem is that we have supporting cast without a legitimate first option. Neither Lebron, nor Wade have to fear any leadership-issues coming to NY.

donchris... If having a top defensive team was a prerequisite to sign a FA then lots of players wouldn't have moved. I think you're exagerating. As for it being NY that will attract that's no myth. What we have to consider is this: NY isn't a small market i.e. Charlett or OKC and thus inherently players expect their salaries to reflect this. That's why NY teams payrolls are amongst the highest. Yanks, Mets, Knicks etc... One thing a player knows is he can achieve his highest pay potential in this market. And sorry to say PAY means more than winning 99% of the time. Look at Lee and N8... they expect the same. You would think in order to win they would take less (fair) to achieve success but no they think of their pockets first. Next I would say LOOK AT DONNIE FROM DA BRONX!!!!! I have to give him props for the way he is handling Lee masterfully. Last season everyone was begging to resign him, Walsh stood pat and figured Lee was overated and now holds all the cards. That's right m*ther****ers Thanks to the recession we are headed toward EQUILIBRIUM!!!! Where supply actually meets demand and the best players get paid the most. Its a shock to Lee and N8 and some fans alike b/c most aren't used to this. In the past we would have thrown $ at these mediocre players to appease them and be stuck.... Donnie says NO MORE! Has he not proven this? This is what we need! The formula is Very Simple.... If there is a player that's younger-as good or better-and cheaper then you become expendable period! That's how it should be. No more over paying amd pricing ourselves out of FA opportunities. Teams with proper FO and contracts based on Market value (or below) have OPTIONS THAT can be excersised at will season in and out. Ex Lakers & Spurs- aren't you happy we are being put into that position? Donnie from da Bronx has givin us one of the most sought after things in the world.... OPTIONS AND CHOICES! Now have patience and see if he can get players who excell in this system. It doesn't have to be Wade or Lebron but when u th

cont'd.....think how we almost beat most of these teams w/ allstars without having 1 ourselves, we aren't really that far off. As for this offseason what happened is what I expected and i'll break it down: Donnie's plan is simple/consise/and obvious... 1. Get under the cap 2. Become competitive 3. Restore respectability. For #1 he moved many overblown contracts even if it sacraficed (the unknown) wins. Built up those expiring contracts to increase trade value see Duhon, Lee and Jeffries. Lee is crashing back to earth... everything Lee haters said (no D can't score) is coming to fruition, the league has spoken (or not). He acquired a cheaper potentially better N8 and Lee in the draft giving us further leverage. #2 we are more competitive with a better coach/system, more expectations/accountability with new players and less of a rotation. #3 restoring respectability is done through competing and winning. Our record didn't show it but we hung w/ the leagues best (@ times) with this unstable roster, imagine when players know they're staying and know their roles! Like I said NO MORE OVERBLODED CONTRACTS and ALL IT TAKES IS 1 DAY.... YOU WAKE UP NO RUMORES OR INUINDO and BAM THE KNICKS LAND (fill in the blank)... your memory of the past is erased and its the dawn of a new era. Could we possibly say that in the past 10 yr barring a miracle? I Feel Great!!!!

sorry to go on..... No more paying above market value b/c you play in 1 of the biggest markets. F*ck Lee and N8 and anyone who will put their pockets above the team. Raping us and holding us hostage!!!! It reminds me of Jerry Rease from the Giants. If you can't be a team player on field and contractually you're gone period. The stars get the highest contracts, role players fall in line or get replaced. NO ONE IS GREATER THAN THE TEAM!!!! That's means ME FIRST Marbury, Crawford, Z-Bo anyone. Donnie is achieving this and We Need To Support Him!!!!! Trust me... if you're a NY giants fan you know what I'm talking about. In other words we would rather lose as a team then let an individual's wants deter us. That said this off season we weren't going to jeoperdize our work to get there. That would be counter productive. So take your ill faded memories and forget them, don't refer to the past because it's a new day. We need a new state of mind. Winning isn't everything it's the Only Thing and we are becoming a TEAM being built for winning not butt-rapage by corny limited scrubs. Its a new day m*ther****ers... you made it this far can't you support the TEAM through this transition?

donchris said:

Can someone explain to me how you attract all star free agents when you have a team that doesn't play defense or even make an attempt at playing defense and can't win or finish games? So some how because it's New York everyone is going to come running next season right? Just like they did this off season? Oh wait, that didn't happen.
My point is there needs to be a back up plan. I give Donnie credit for not giving a max contract to Lee (Something Isiah would have done immediately) but, letting Lee go without acquiring a rebounder in his place would be an epic mistake. Letting Lee go will create another void. Instead of being a team that doesn't play defense, block shots and is inconsistent we will be a team that doesn't play defense, doesn't block shots or 'rebound' and is inconsistent. Maybe his thinking is Hill will be an adequate replacement. That's a gamble considering Hill will be a backup forward at best.

Maybe we should be patient but Walsh is putting it all on 2010. If this year doesn't pan out to be as big as the media would like us to believe, and I think it wont be, then what? 5 more years of mediocrity.

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The reason Kidd and Hill didn't come to NY isn't because of the team its because of money flat out. The Suns and Mavs outbid us point blank. Phoenix has absolutely no shot of winning a title next year and frankly Dallas has little to no shot at winning a title so they didn't pick those teams over NY for winning potential they chose those teams for money...

This proves why the 2010 plan is the only way to go. If we spend money on average players or trade for average players with big contracts we will be in the same boat as this year. In order to sign players you have to spend money and we will have plenty of money to spend next offseason. And let me tell you something... Once you land one big piece the other pieces fall in line at a cheaper price. If we were to sign a Wade or Lebron I 100% percent guarantee you players like Bosh, Boozer, Amare, and Joe Johnson would come at a slightly discounted rate. They won't be cheap but once you add a superstar to that mix the price drops.

A core of:
Gallo
Chandler
Douglas
Hill
Nate (if resigned we'd still have his bird rights)
Lee (same as nate)
and possibly Sessions

Thats a quality young core. Its a better young core then the team Wade took to the playoffs last season. And it's a better core then the Cavs. By the end of next season Big Z and Shaq will be one year old and one year slower and as shown in the playoffs this year the other pieces aren't that good.

Lee > or = Varejo
Nate > Boobie Gibson
Gallinari > Anthony Parker
Chandler = Delonte West

In 2010 we have the potential to add 3 free agents. Two big money free agents and one player at the mid level exception. If you were to add any of these two players; Lebron, Wade, Amare, Bosh, Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Ginobili, Dirk, and Yao plus a solid veteran mid level exception player to the young core we have now i'd take our chances against anytime in the East. Boston and Cleveland are getting older by the day folks.

Oh yea 2011 also has a pretty solid cast of free agents. So even if we swung and missed and didn't land Lebron or Wade in 2010 we'd atleast get a combo of Joe Johnson and a big man and then go shopping in 2011 with the extra money coming off Jefferies and Curry's deal. Here's a few 2011 free agents.

Al Horford
J.R. Smith
Melo
Prince
Kevin Durant
Jeff Green
Thadeus Young
Richard Jefferson
Tony Parker
Caron Butler

So too sum it up.. I'd take my chances having a slow summer this year (which still isn't over my friends) then going out there trying to find a quick fix and leaving us a non player in 2010 and 2011. You know how upset some of us were this offseason when Kidd and Hill used us to get better offers? Well if we don't have any money in 2010 and 11 all the free agents are going to use us for money.

And DonChris the reason a star player would come to a Knicks team that you think plays no defense and has no room to improve is simple. Money and there own personal ego. Players are driven by money and they all have massive egos that make them believe them and them alone can turn around a team. Why did A-Rod sign with Texas? To win? No he wanted the cash.

One more thing in my rant. I don't see why we can't compete for an 8th seeed with no changes to the roster this season. Looks like we're going to bring back Nate and Lee and hopefully have Gallinari all season. We've added some depth to the frontline ( Hill and Darko) and a backup point guard (Douglas). If the young core continues to devolop and we can find one shooter to play alongside Gallinari we should atleast be able to win 38-42 games and be in the hunt for the 8th seed.