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Thread: WTF Is Going On?

  1. #31
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    The truth is that Lebron isn't coming to NY in 2010. A year ago, I say he would have. Right now, Lebron exists in a state of humility, of the sort that keeps him up late at night, thinking on how much he can't do it alone.

    As I said in my previous post to this thread, players like Lebron and Wade know that Crawford and Marbury were offensively talented players, like them, though not as the same level. They know that, if they come to the Knicks, they'll be surrounded by the same type of lazy, incompetent bigs.

    Wade and James, in my opinion, are too experienced, coveted, and will be flooded with enough better offers (monetarily and otherwise), to go for anything the Knicks can offer.

    They know that they'll be playing alongside bigs that can't help them on D, get rebounds for them, etc. They know they can at least get the Knicks an 8th seed entry into the playoffs, as opposed to what the Knicks were doing with Crawford and Marbury; but do you think this is what they want to incorporate into their respective basketball legacies?


    The 2010 dream is just that, a dream. The Knicks would be well-served to focus on looking for intelligent, athletically-gifted players, the most beautiful thing you can see in this sport. The knicks need guys that box out, move the ball, move to their spots on time, help on D, etc.
    OG I'd have to disagree...

    1. The FA class is so talented that a players "leverage" is reduced inherently

    2. Not too many teams will have cap space to "please them all" (greedy bastards)

    3. Players don't NEED a big or surrounding cast to chase fame, success and the ever popular dollar which I may add...

    4. A max contract is a max contract, and as I understand can only be eclipsed if they sign with their home team

    My point is If we weren't part of only a hand full of teams that planned ahead and put ourselves in position to at least bid on a star player in 2010 we would still be unhappy.

    So far (although I question D'Antoni's no defense) we observed the following:

    Walsh got rid of Jerome James useless ass
    Z-Bo's overblown contract
    Crawfords' inconsistent ass

    Most dead weight is almost gone.

    I cant blame D'Antoni if he doesnt have the players he needs (every coach does need their type of players)

    They improved the record slightly

    and they got Something out of Jared Bumass Jeffries and Chris Bumass Duhon

    + Made N8 better (career year) and got Curry to lose weight (lol)

    Sure we didn't make the playoffs but in retrospect NOT many 1st YEAR coaches GM combo's could have with the highest payroll/ [1 of the] lowest talented teams in the league

    Just be patient...

    At least we can say we are moving in position to become very good in the next few seasons be it slowly.

    All it takes is one day, one good move or a few good moves and in a matter of minutes we could transform instantly. Isn't it good to know thats at least a possibility?


  2. #32
    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    Can someone explain to me how you attract all star free agents when you have a team that doesn't play defense or even make an attempt at playing defense and can't win or finish games? So some how because it's New York everyone is going to come running next season right? Just like they did this off season? Oh wait, that didn't happen.
    My point is there needs to be a back up plan. I give Donnie credit for not giving a max contract to Lee (Something Isiah would have done immediately) but, letting Lee go without acquiring a rebounder in his place would be an epic mistake. Letting Lee go will create another void. Instead of being a team that doesn't play defense, block shots and is inconsistent we will be a team that doesn't play defense, doesn't block shots or 'rebound' and is inconsistent. Maybe his thinking is Hill will be an adequate replacement. That's a gamble considering Hill will be a backup forward at best.

    Maybe we should be patient but Walsh is putting it all on 2010. If this year doesn't pan out to be as big as the media would like us to believe, and I think it wont be, then what? 5 more years of mediocrity.

  3. #33
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    OG I'd have to disagree...

    1. The FA class is so talented that a players "leverage" is reduced inherently

    2. Not too many teams will have cap space to "please them all" (greedy bastards)

    3. Players don't NEED a big or surrounding cast to chase fame, success and the ever popular dollar which I may add...

    4. A max contract is a max contract, and as I understand can only be eclipsed if they sign with their home team

    My point is If we weren't part of only a hand full of teams that planned ahead and put ourselves in position to at least bid on a star player in 2010 we would still be unhappy.

    So far (although I question D'Antoni's no defense) we observed the following:

    Walsh got rid of Jerome James useless ass
    Z-Bo's overblown contract
    Crawfords' inconsistent ass

    Most dead weight is almost gone.

    I cant blame D'Antoni if he doesnt have the players he needs (every coach does need their type of players)

    They improved the record slightly

    and they got Something out of Jared Bumass Jeffries and Chris Bumass Duhon

    + Made N8 better (career year) and got Curry to lose weight (lol)

    Sure we didn't make the playoffs but in retrospect NOT many 1st YEAR coaches GM combo's could have with the highest payroll/ [1 of the] lowest talented teams in the league

    Just be patient...

    At least we can say we are moving in position to become very good in the next few seasons be it slowly.

    All it takes is one day, one good move or a few good moves and in a matter of minutes we could transform instantly. Isn't it good to know thats at least a possibility?


    You'd be right, except that we're talking about two of the three best players in the game, today: Lebron James and Dwyane Wade.

    The money will be there, for the both of them... from numerous teams. They will definitely have their pick of places to play in. Unless NY proves itself a stable environment for them to flourish, I don't see them coming here.

    Now, if you're talking about other FA's, like Bosh and Stoudamire, they can indeed be enticed with money. Wade and James, on the other hand, are going to get paid, period.

  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by donchris
    Maybe we should be patient but Walsh is putting it all on 2010. If this year doesn't pan out to be as big as the media would like us to believe, and I think it wont be, then what? 5 more years of mediocrity.
    5 more years of mediocrity beats the last seven years of being the joke of the NBA

    Walsh's 2010 plan isn't the greatest but you know he'll at least get us to the playoffs in 2010 with whomever he signs. Yeah, Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudamire might not be the greatest players we all want, but they'd get us to the playoffs, which is way more than what Isiah can really say.

    Where was this team going under Isiah? Stephon Marbury as our starting PG? A frontcourt of Curry, Lee, and Randolph? That team wasn't going anywhere and we all know that. At the very least Walsh is getting together a squad that might go to the playoffs in 2-3 years. Beats being the worst team in our division like we were for so long.

    Put it this way if Walsh wasn't betting on 2010 we would all be blasting him for missing out on the greatest free agent class of all time...

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    I wonder why six (6) years ago the Pacers hired Larry Bird as their G.M.?
    Who do we have as our G.M.? while Walsh vacation for the 2nd summer in a row. And Dantoni play politics by spending his summer with the Olympic team.

    So far this offseason the best move Walsh made was resigning Nate Robinson.
    Now the $3M he spent to get Douglas was wisely spent.

    Board members u better hope like hell Walsh resign David Lee....this way our 8th pick in the future would be considered the best available player at that selection.

    PG-Duhon
    Combo-Guard-Nate & Douglas
    SG-Empty, open for suggestions (Hughes)
    SF-Harrington, Chandler, Gallo
    PF-Lee & Hill
    C-Curry & Darko

  6. #36
    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by donchris
    Can someone explain to me how you attract all star free agents when you have a team that doesn't play defense or even make an attempt at playing defense and can't win or finish games?
    Being able to stay in a game and losing it because we don't have a finisher actually is actually a factor that could attract Allstar-caliber players. Why else would you bring a go-to guy?

    Right now our problem is that we have supporting cast without a legitimate first option. Neither Lebron, nor Wade have to fear any leadership-issues coming to NY.

  7. #37
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    donchris... If having a top defensive team was a prerequisite to sign a FA then lots of players wouldn't have moved. I think you're exagerating. As for it being NY that will attract that's no myth. What we have to consider is this: NY isn't a small market i.e. Charlett or OKC and thus inherently players expect their salaries to reflect this. That's why NY teams payrolls are amongst the highest. Yanks, Mets, Knicks etc... One thing a player knows is he can achieve his highest pay potential in this market. And sorry to say PAY means more than winning 99% of the time. Look at Lee and N8... they expect the same. You would think in order to win they would take less (fair) to achieve success but no they think of their pockets first. Next I would say LOOK AT DONNIE FROM DA BRONX!!!!! I have to give him props for the way he is handling Lee masterfully. Last season everyone was begging to resign him, Walsh stood pat and figured Lee was overated and now holds all the cards. That's right m*ther****ers Thanks to the recession we are headed toward EQUILIBRIUM!!!! Where supply actually meets demand and the best players get paid the most. Its a shock to Lee and N8 and some fans alike b/c most aren't used to this. In the past we would have thrown $ at these mediocre players to appease them and be stuck.... Donnie says NO MORE! Has he not proven this? This is what we need! The formula is Very Simple.... If there is a player that's younger-as good or better-and cheaper then you become expendable period! That's how it should be. No more over paying amd pricing ourselves out of FA opportunities. Teams with proper FO and contracts based on Market value (or below) have OPTIONS THAT can be excersised at will season in and out. Ex Lakers & Spurs- aren't you happy we are being put into that position? Donnie from da Bronx has givin us one of the most sought after things in the world.... OPTIONS AND CHOICES! Now have patience and see if he can get players who excell in this system. It doesn't have to be Wade or Lebron but when u th
    Last edited by Red; Jul 28, 2009 at 08:58.

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    cont'd.....think how we almost beat most of these teams w/ allstars without having 1 ourselves, we aren't really that far off. As for this offseason what happened is what I expected and i'll break it down: Donnie's plan is simple/consise/and obvious... 1. Get under the cap 2. Become competitive 3. Restore respectability. For #1 he moved many overblown contracts even if it sacraficed (the unknown) wins. Built up those expiring contracts to increase trade value see Duhon, Lee and Jeffries. Lee is crashing back to earth... everything Lee haters said (no D can't score) is coming to fruition, the league has spoken (or not). He acquired a cheaper potentially better N8 and Lee in the draft giving us further leverage. #2 we are more competitive with a better coach/system, more expectations/accountability with new players and less of a rotation. #3 restoring respectability is done through competing and winning. Our record didn't show it but we hung w/ the leagues best (@ times) with this unstable roster, imagine when players know they're staying and know their roles! Like I said NO MORE OVERBLODED CONTRACTS and ALL IT TAKES IS 1 DAY.... YOU WAKE UP NO RUMORES OR INUINDO and BAM THE KNICKS LAND (fill in the blank)... your memory of the past is erased and its the dawn of a new era. Could we possibly say that in the past 10 yr barring a miracle? I Feel Great!!!!
    Last edited by Red; Jul 28, 2009 at 10:18.

  9. #39
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    sorry to go on..... No more paying above market value b/c you play in 1 of the biggest markets. F*ck Lee and N8 and anyone who will put their pockets above the team. Raping us and holding us hostage!!!! It reminds me of Jerry Rease from the Giants. If you can't be a team player on field and contractually you're gone period. The stars get the highest contracts, role players fall in line or get replaced. NO ONE IS GREATER THAN THE TEAM!!!! That's means ME FIRST Marbury, Crawford, Z-Bo anyone. Donnie is achieving this and We Need To Support Him!!!!! Trust me... if you're a NY giants fan you know what I'm talking about. In other words we would rather lose as a team then let an individual's wants deter us. That said this off season we weren't going to jeoperdize our work to get there. That would be counter productive. So take your ill faded memories and forget them, don't refer to the past because it's a new day. We need a new state of mind. Winning isn't everything it's the Only Thing and we are becoming a TEAM being built for winning not butt-rapage by corny limited scrubs. Its a new day m*ther****ers... you made it this far can't you support the TEAM through this transition?

  10. #40
    Veteran GetRealistic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by donchris
    Can someone explain to me how you attract all star free agents when you have a team that doesn't play defense or even make an attempt at playing defense and can't win or finish games? So some how because it's New York everyone is going to come running next season right? Just like they did this off season? Oh wait, that didn't happen.
    My point is there needs to be a back up plan. I give Donnie credit for not giving a max contract to Lee (Something Isiah would have done immediately) but, letting Lee go without acquiring a rebounder in his place would be an epic mistake. Letting Lee go will create another void. Instead of being a team that doesn't play defense, block shots and is inconsistent we will be a team that doesn't play defense, doesn't block shots or 'rebound' and is inconsistent. Maybe his thinking is Hill will be an adequate replacement. That's a gamble considering Hill will be a backup forward at best.

    Maybe we should be patient but Walsh is putting it all on 2010. If this year doesn't pan out to be as big as the media would like us to believe, and I think it wont be, then what? 5 more years of mediocrity.


    The reason Kidd and Hill didn't come to NY isn't because of the team its because of money flat out. The Suns and Mavs outbid us point blank. Phoenix has absolutely no shot of winning a title next year and frankly Dallas has little to no shot at winning a title so they didn't pick those teams over NY for winning potential they chose those teams for money...

    This proves why the 2010 plan is the only way to go. If we spend money on average players or trade for average players with big contracts we will be in the same boat as this year. In order to sign players you have to spend money and we will have plenty of money to spend next offseason. And let me tell you something... Once you land one big piece the other pieces fall in line at a cheaper price. If we were to sign a Wade or Lebron I 100% percent guarantee you players like Bosh, Boozer, Amare, and Joe Johnson would come at a slightly discounted rate. They won't be cheap but once you add a superstar to that mix the price drops.

    A core of:
    Gallo
    Chandler
    Douglas
    Hill
    Nate (if resigned we'd still have his bird rights)
    Lee (same as nate)
    and possibly Sessions

    Thats a quality young core. Its a better young core then the team Wade took to the playoffs last season. And it's a better core then the Cavs. By the end of next season Big Z and Shaq will be one year old and one year slower and as shown in the playoffs this year the other pieces aren't that good.

    Lee > or = Varejo
    Nate > Boobie Gibson
    Gallinari > Anthony Parker
    Chandler = Delonte West

    In 2010 we have the potential to add 3 free agents. Two big money free agents and one player at the mid level exception. If you were to add any of these two players; Lebron, Wade, Amare, Bosh, Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Ginobili, Dirk, and Yao plus a solid veteran mid level exception player to the young core we have now i'd take our chances against anytime in the East. Boston and Cleveland are getting older by the day folks.

    Oh yea 2011 also has a pretty solid cast of free agents. So even if we swung and missed and didn't land Lebron or Wade in 2010 we'd atleast get a combo of Joe Johnson and a big man and then go shopping in 2011 with the extra money coming off Jefferies and Curry's deal. Here's a few 2011 free agents.

    Al Horford
    J.R. Smith
    Melo
    Prince
    Kevin Durant
    Jeff Green
    Thadeus Young
    Richard Jefferson
    Tony Parker
    Caron Butler

    So too sum it up.. I'd take my chances having a slow summer this year (which still isn't over my friends) then going out there trying to find a quick fix and leaving us a non player in 2010 and 2011. You know how upset some of us were this offseason when Kidd and Hill used us to get better offers? Well if we don't have any money in 2010 and 11 all the free agents are going to use us for money.

    And DonChris the reason a star player would come to a Knicks team that you think plays no defense and has no room to improve is simple. Money and there own personal ego. Players are driven by money and they all have massive egos that make them believe them and them alone can turn around a team. Why did A-Rod sign with Texas? To win? No he wanted the cash.

    One more thing in my rant. I don't see why we can't compete for an 8th seeed with no changes to the roster this season. Looks like we're going to bring back Nate and Lee and hopefully have Gallinari all season. We've added some depth to the frontline ( Hill and Darko) and a backup point guard (Douglas). If the young core continues to devolop and we can find one shooter to play alongside Gallinari we should atleast be able to win 38-42 games and be in the hunt for the 8th seed.

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    When the NBA sent out a memo to its teams on July 7 with the salary cap information for the 2009-10 season, it also included an attachment with some precautionary projections for 2010-11.

    The league said it was possible that the $58 million cap could drop 2.5 to five percent, which would be as much as $8 million. And at that point, with cap flexibility in 2010 the primary goal, Knicks president Donnie Walsh hit the pause button on his plans to upgrade the roster this summer.
    I guess that puts us in a 23 win 2009-10 season mess
    It is July 30th and we still have our MLE.
    It looks like the Knicks has become the FA last resort.
    Will we be the last resort for the 2010 FA too?

    It will be August, and look where we stand in next season playoff race:
    1) Boston
    2) Cleveland
    3) Orlando
    4) Toronto
    5) Atlanta
    6) Philly
    7) Miami
    8) Washington
    9) Chicago
    10) Charlotte
    11) New Jersey
    12) Detroit
    13) Lottery Team<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

  12. #42
    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    It's good that most of you have high hopes for the Knicks. We've all had high hopes time and time again and saw fruitless results. We agree that the top free agents will go where the money is but guess what, their existing teams will be able to match any offer we make. Lets not pretend that money is the only factor. For players at the Kobe/LeBron/Wade level winning is as important, or at very least a very close second to finance. They will get paid regardless. The notion that teams will come to N.Y. just because it's N.Y. is delusional. Sure someone on a losing team in the middle of nowhere would like to make the jump to the big apple, no question, but let's be real, LeBron made it to the eastern finals, a heartbeat away from the finals. LeBron to N.Y. would be three steps backward for a guy that wants an NBA championship. Put your fandome aside and think logically. No one that wants a title will come to N.Y. with this current roster. Had Walsh gotten a shot blocker (Not Darko) and a real point guard (Not Tinsely) things would be different. I respect him staying the course. He hasn't added cap which is great but this team is not competitive. I'm not trying to be a killjoy but we've got to be realistic.

    Get ready for Bosh and Redd

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    Veteran JayJ44's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by donchris
    It's good that most of you have high hopes for the Knicks. We've all had high hopes time and time again and saw fruitless results. We agree that the top free agents will go where the money is but guess what, their existing teams will be able to match any offer we make. Lets not pretend that money is the only factor. For players at the Kobe/LeBron/Wade level winning is as important, or at very least a very close second to finance. They will get paid regardless. The notion that teams will come to N.Y. just because it's N.Y. is delusional. Sure someone on a losing team in the middle of nowhere would like to make the jump to the big apple, no question, but let's be real, LeBron made it to the eastern finals, a heartbeat away from the finals. LeBron to N.Y. would be three steps backward for a guy that wants an NBA championship. Put your fandome aside and think logically. No one that wants a title will come to N.Y. with this current roster. Had Walsh gotten a shot blocker (Not Darko) and a real point guard (Not Tinsely) things would be different. I respect him staying the course. He hasn't added cap which is great but this team is not competitive. I'm not trying to be a killjoy but we've got to be realistic.

    Get ready for Bosh and Redd
    It's not like the Cavs minus Lebron are that good. We have a much better core than they do. The only reason they made it to the ECF, is Lebron's outstanding play. If we were to add Lebron to this roster, as is, we could probably make the finals. In fact, Lebron would have a much more long term success in NY rather than Cleveland.

    Gallo, Chandler, Hill, Douglas>Mo Williams, Delonte West, Varejao

    Shaq and Ilgaulskus are both on their last legs, and will retire soon. The Cavs don't really have any young talent that to go forward with. We have a pretty solid young core, not to mention the possibility of us acquiring Ramon Sessions.

  14. #44
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Default I can't believe this....smh

    Originally Posted by donchris
    Had Walsh gotten a shot blocker (Not Darko) and a real point guard (Not Tinsely) things would be different. I respect him staying the course. He hasn't added cap which is great but this team is not competitive. I'm not trying to be a killjoy but we've got to be realistic.

    Get ready for Bosh and Redd
    Had we gotten a PG and a shot blocker that fit our system WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO AFFORD A FA STAR NEXT SEASON!! What about "wait til' 2010- we're clearing cap space- it's gonna take 2 yrs" don't you understand? I'm sick of "Fans" saying they understand the plan then b*tchin and moaning b/c they can't wait! What you want is SHORT TERM, and I undrstnd' you don't agree (which could of and was stated 1000x's) but it is what it is. Walsh told you guys the plan from jump and now m*therf*ckers are STILL COMPLAINING. Wake up. I respect you donchris but these statements!!?!? No one will want to come to NY?! So Bostons team was all that before they got the "big three"? People were fiending to go to Utah or Orlando or Charlt. Stop... You can't say people don't want to go to a team that's building for the future with unlimited resources and a top ten coach not to mention a savvy GM. Your fandome hasn't allowed you to embrace this new regime and thus you group all your Isaiah memories and let downs together. Now its you've been waiting years when THESE guys have been on the job 1 YEAR HELLO 1 YEAR!!!!!! After this year we will actually be under the cap- Are There Any Knick Fans Who Are Smart Enough To Comprehend This? Please tell me there are...

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    Originally Posted by Red
    Had we gotten a PG and a shot blocker that fit our system WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO AFFORD A FA STAR NEXT SEASON!! What about "wait til' 2010- we're clearing cap space- it's gonna take 2 yrs" don't you understand? I'm sick of "Fans" saying they understand the plan then b*tchin and moaning b/c they can't wait! What you want is SHORT TERM, and I undrstnd' you don't agree (which could of and was stated 1000x's) but it is what it is. Walsh told you guys the plan from jump and now m*therf*ckers are STILL COMPLAINING. Wake up. I respect you donchris but these statements!!?!? No one will want to come to NY?! So Bostons team was all that before they got the "big three"? People were fiending to go to Utah or Orlando or Charlt. Stop... You can't say people don't want to go to a team that's building for the future with unlimited resources and a top ten coach not to mention a savvy GM. Your fandome hasn't allowed you to embrace this new regime and thus you group all your Isaiah memories and let downs together. Now its you've been waiting years when THESE guys have been on the job 1 YEAR HELLO 1 YEAR!!!!!! After this year we will actually be under the cap- Are There Any Knick Fans Who Are Smart Enough To Comprehend This? Please tell me there are...

    Red....I took the time to read all your post in this thread, and there is one important thing u left out....the large population of people in New York State is 4 times as large than the average state. Which makes our sport-fans increasingly large, so when Lakers Kobe, Nuggets Carmelo, Spurs Duncan, Dallas Dirk, Phoenix Amare, Utah Deron, or CP3, show up to MSG the word on 33rd st. is "SOLD-OUT". And that is just the teams in the West Coast.
    Plus win or lose since the arrival of Marbury in 2003-4 the Knicks MSG have average 19 thousand Fans in their stadium. The Knicks gross income the last 4 years the same amount of $$$MONEY$$$ as the top 5 winning teams.
    Marbury may have been a team Loser, but his number # 3 Jersey in New York for 2 and half season sold more and top any NBA Super-Star to the point where Marbury opened up his own Franchise.

    Isiah may have been clueless on how to win with Marbury, but on the "real" money making bussiness tip he was a genius in making millions in profit for Owner Dolan who kept spending big dollars.

    The only players in the league the Dolan's private Front Office see that can do the samething money-wise is super-star Lebron James or D.Wade.
    So if Walsh & Dantoni cant keep the profit flowing a year after the 2010 Plan.....we are onto the next President and headcoach.
    It's a BUSSINESS!!!

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