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Thread: Should Knicks approach Atlanta about Johnson trade?

  1. #16
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DANUTZ39
    As for buying out Curry and/or Jefferies, we will save some money depending on what the buyout sum they agree upon. The biggest problem is that I just dont see Curry and Jeffries leaving guranteed money on the table(not much anyway) based on their performance and phisical condition(curry).

    This how the buyout works and how it affects the salary cap:

    ''How do buy-outs affect a team's salary cap?

    The agreed-upon buy-out amount is included in the team salary instead of the salary called for in the contract. If the player had more than one season left on his contract, then the buy-out money is distributed among those seasons in proportion to the original salary. For example, say a player had three seasons remaining on his contract, with salaries of $10 million, $11 million and $12 million. The player and team agree to a buyout of $15 million. The $15 million is therefore charged to the team salary over the three seasons. Since the original contract had $33 million left to be paid, and $10 million is 30.3% of $33 million, 30.3% of the $15 million buyout, or $4.545 million, is included in the team salary in the first season following the buyout. Likewise, 33.33% of $15 million, or $5 million, is included in the team salary in the second season, and 36.36% of $15 million, or $5.455 million, is included in the team salary in the third season.
    The distribution of the buy-out money is a matter of individual negotiation. Changing the number of years in which the money is paid does not change the number of years in which the team's team salary is charged. In the above example in which the player's contract is bought out with three seasons remaining, the buyout amount is always charged to the team salary over three seasons. It does not matter if the player is actually paid in a lump sum or over 20 years (a spread provision).''

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    Yes, I know. That's what I was saying. Buying out a player may save us a few mil but it is still part of our salary next year.

    You should be responding to hometheaterguy and the others that make ridiculous claims like getting Lebron, Johnson and Bosh. The numbers don't work. I realize this, OldTimer does, and so do you. Thanks for providing the actual legal info though. Appreciate it.

  2. #17
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    Default The CBA Is Not An Easy Read

    The NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement is tough reading. I have read portions but cannot guarantee that I have read them correctly.

    The Salary Cap is a function of prior year revenues and is set some time around the July moratorium period of the Cap year in question. By that time first round draft picks have been made, but probably not yet signed.

    When the Cap number is set, one can then compare the "Team Salary" with the cap amount. The CBA tells you what is included in the "Team Salary" and it is substantially more than existing player contracts. We must also be careful not to confuse exceptions from the Salary Cap restrictions with the calculation of "Team Salary" in determining the existence or not of Cap space for signing free agents.

    In addition to existing contracts, the "Team Salary" includes (1) unsigned first round draft picks at the Rookie Scale amounts, (2) the team's free agents at amounts that are substantially more than the prior year contract amounts, and (3) unused bi-annual, mid-level and some other exceptions to the Salary Cap restrictions.

    We do not have a 2010 first round pick so our "Team Salary" will not be burdened with a rookie scale amount. We have plenty of free agents. We can avoid inclusion of salary amounts attributed to them by renouncing our Bird or other rights. If we renounce, we can only use Salary Cap space or salary cap exceptions to resign. We can also renounce unused salary cap exceptions, i.e., bi-annual, mid-level, etc. to free them from inclusion in the "Team Salary."

    Once we reduce our "Team Salary" to a number below the Salary Cap, we can use the difference to sign free agents.

    After we sign any free agent we can use whatever Salary Cap amount that may be left and, thereafter, any exceptions to the Salary Cap we have not renounced. Apparently one exception always available is the "Minimum Player Salary Exception."

    There must be a roster of at least 12. We could use the "Minimum Player Salary Exception" to fill up the roster. I believe a "veteran" could be signed at the veteran's minimum.

    It would help if we could move Jefferies and/or Curry before the trade deadline.

  3. #18
    Member DANUTZ39's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    The mid-level exception was set up so teams over the cap can sign free agents. The salary is still part of the team's total team salary which is against the cap.

    Jeffries was signed for the mid-level and his salary counts against our cap space. If not, then why wouldn't teams always just use the mid-level every year and never be over the cap?

    Why wouldn't the Bucks have given Sessions the mid-level?

    Because it subtracts from the available cap-space. Hence why the T-Wolves only have $14 mil in cap space after they signed Sessions.
    1) My response was in regard to the MLE. Although it counts toward the cap is a exeption. That means we can use it last to go over the cap. Let's say the cap next year will be 54 mill. So we will have 6 players and 28 mill on the books then we can add 17 mill for a max player and 9mill for lee and that will be 54 mill total salary for 8 players. That's when we can use the Mle to go over the cap and add either 2 players or one(nate?). Then will have 9-10 players. Then after that there are few more exeptions that can be used to sign scrubs to fill out the roster. Those are the bi-annual exception which we did not used this year, the rookie exception if we buy or trade for a late 1st round pick or a 2nd round pick) and the trade player exeption (TPE). So we can still sign a max, lee, nate or 2 lesser players a rookie and couple more scrubs to have a full roster (even though not a contender calliber). I'm not even saying if we can get somthig out of mid seasson trade time. Then after next seasson Curry and jeffreis get off the books and we can go for more talent that will make us contenders.

    2) The Bucks did not give session the mle because they were 1mill below the luxury tax. If they match the 4mill /year offer for session or Eeven worse give him the full mle) they will be paying dollar for dollar for whatever amount is over the luxury tax. And because they are not the Knicks they said no.

    3) The wolves will have only 14 mill because by giving session 4mill per year for 4 years (mle or not) they added sallary to their next year salary. We did not used our mle this year therefore did not added any guranteed money to the next year cap.

  4. #19
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DANUTZ39
    1) My response was in regard to the MLE. Although it counts toward the cap is a exeption. That means we can use it last to go over the cap. Let's say the cap next year will be 54 mill. So we will have 6 players and 28 mill on the books then we can add 17 mill for a max player and 9mill for lee and that will be 54 mill total salary for 8 players. That's when we can use the Mle to go over the cap and add either 2 players or one(nate?). Then will have 9-10 players. Then after that there are few more exeptions that can be used to sign scrubs to fill out the roster. Those are the bi-annual exception which we did not used this year, the rookie exception if we buy or trade for a late 1st round pick or a 2nd round pick) and the trade player exeption (TPE). So we can still sign a max, lee, nate or 2 lesser players a rookie and couple more scrubs to have a full roster (even though not a contender calliber). I'm not even saying if we can get somthig out of mid seasson trade time. Then after next seasson Curry and jeffreis get off the books and we can go for more talent that will make us contenders.

    2) The Bucks did not give session the mle because they were 1mill below the luxury tax. If they match the 4mill /year offer for session or Eeven worse give him the full mle) they will be paying dollar for dollar for whatever amount is over the luxury tax. And because they are not the Knicks they said no.

    3) The wolves will have only 14 mill because by giving session 4mill per year for 4 years (mle or not) they added sallary to their next year salary. We did not used our mle this year therefore did not added any guranteed money to the next year cap.
    Again. I know this. This is exactly what I've been saying the whole time. I understand the exceptions and so forth. So say we use the mid-level exception to sign a player to a multi-year deal next year (Nate or Harrington) to try and fill out the roster. That eats into 2011's available cap.

    Essentially, what I've been saying is there is no possible way we can sign 2 max players, this year or next...unless of coarse we trade Jeffries and Curry before the deadline or have a shell of a team next year (the 8 players mentioned previously and a bunch of 1 year contracts to fill out the roster).

  5. #20
    The One and Only KING~POETIQ's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Oldtimer
    The NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement is tough reading. I have read portions but cannot guarantee that I have read them correctly.

    The Salary Cap is a function of prior year revenues and is set some time around the July moratorium period of the Cap year in question. By that time first round draft picks have been made, but probably not yet signed.

    When the Cap number is set, one can then compare the "Team Salary" with the cap amount. The CBA tells you what is included in the "Team Salary" and it is substantially more than existing player contracts. We must also be careful not to confuse exceptions from the Salary Cap restrictions with the calculation of "Team Salary" in determining the existence or not of Cap space for signing free agents.

    In addition to existing contracts, the "Team Salary" includes (1) unsigned first round draft picks at the Rookie Scale amounts, (2) the team's free agents at amounts that are substantially more than the prior year contract amounts, and (3) unused bi-annual, mid-level and some other exceptions to the Salary Cap restrictions.

    We do not have a 2010 first round pick so our "Team Salary" will not be burdened with a rookie scale amount. We have plenty of free agents. We can avoid inclusion of salary amounts attributed to them by renouncing our Bird or other rights. If we renounce, we can only use Salary Cap space or salary cap exceptions to resign. We can also renounce unused salary cap exceptions, i.e., bi-annual, mid-level, etc. to free them from inclusion in the "Team Salary."

    Once we reduce our "Team Salary" to a number below the Salary Cap, we can use the difference to sign free agents.

    After we sign any free agent we can use whatever Salary Cap amount that may be left and, thereafter, any exceptions to the Salary Cap we have not renounced. Apparently one exception always available is the "Minimum Player Salary Exception."

    There must be a roster of at least 12. We could use the "Minimum Player Salary Exception" to fill up the roster. I believe a "veteran" could be signed at the veteran's minimum.

    It would help if we could move Jefferies and/or Curry before the trade deadline.
    Don't waste time on it...have a heineken...

  6. #21
    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    With all due respect, you don't have a clue. Buying out Curry's and Jeffries' contracts count against the cap for the entire span of their contracts.

    The full mid-level exception does add to the cap.

    Best case projections have us at around $28 mil in cap space next year if Jeffries and Curry are not traded (highly likely).

    $17 mil for max free agent
    $9 mil for Lee
    = $26 mil

    Add the full mid-level exception around $7 mil and we're $5 mil over the cap (- $2 mil cap space).

    So, now we have an 8 man roster for next year: Jeffries, Curry, Gallo, Chandler, Hill, Douglas, max free agent and Lee. No starting PG and not enough players to fill the 13 roster minimum.

    Someone please let me know how we're going to get a max-star and still have a team next year. I would like to know.
    With all due respect back at ya, buying out Curry's and Jeffries contracst does NOT count against the cap after the season is over, it only counts during the current season. Hence, they will still have to pay the luxury tax against it this season but the cap will be freed up during the off season when they are trying to sign some big name players; it takes it off the books. Since both players have option years, the team could negotiate a buy out and the player, in curry's case, could not pick up his final year option and JJ has an early termination clasue in his. Now their salaries would be off the books after the season is over. Now, if they didn't have these options, then you would be correct. And if a team cuts a player, the team is still responsible for the contract; that is a different story. A player can refuse the buy out and then the team is screwed... As far as the mid-level goes, once again you missed my point... Even if a team is over the cap they can use their mid-level exception to sign a player... That's why there is a mid-level EXCEPTION!!! Yes it goes towards the cap but it doesn't affect their ability to sign free agents....That's why the NBA set's the CAP and Mid-Level
    That is how I understand it.... Correct me if I am wrong...

  7. #22
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    With all due respect back at ya, buying out Curry's and Jeffries contracst does NOT count against the cap after the season is over, it only counts during the current season. Hence, they will still have to pay the luxury tax against it this season but the cap will be freed up during the off season when they are trying to sign some big name players; it takes it off the books. Since both players have option years, the team could negotiate a buy out and the player, in curry's case, could not pick up his final year option and JJ has an early termination clasue in his. Now their salaries would be off the books after the season is over. Now, if they didn't have these options, then you would be correct. And if a team cuts a player, the team is still responsible for the contract; that is a different story. A player can refuse the buy out and then the team is screwed... As far as the mid-level goes, once again you missed my point... Even if a team is over the cap they can use their mid-level exception to sign a player... That's why there is a mid-level EXCEPTION!!! Yes it goes towards the cap but it doesn't affect their ability to sign free agents....That's why the NBA set's the CAP and Mid-Level
    That is how I understand it.... Correct me if I am wrong...
    I think you are wrong...if that were the case the Knicks could just buy-out everyone since money is not a problem for the DOlans. Why wait 2-3 years for the Walsh 2010 plan when we could have just bought everyone out? Why would Curry still be in a Knicks uniform? Why did we have JJ clogging up a spot for years before trading him?

  8. #23
    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I think you are wrong...if that were the case the Knicks could just buy-out everyone since money is not a problem for the DOlans. Why wait 2-3 years for the Walsh 2010 plan when we could have just bought everyone out? Why would Curry still be in a Knicks uniform? Why did we have JJ clogging up a spot for years before trading him?
    The reason why is not everyone has an option on the last year of their contract, whether a team option or player option. Also, money is an issue when you have to dish it out up front plus pay the cap tax hit... You could be looking at 50 mil between the 2 with the salary combo and cap tax. Most players have guaranteed contracts for the entire length.

  9. #24
    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I think you are wrong...if that were the case the Knicks could just buy-out everyone since money is not a problem for the DOlans. Why wait 2-3 years for the Walsh 2010 plan when we could have just bought everyone out? Why would Curry still be in a Knicks uniform? Why did we have JJ clogging up a spot for years before trading him?

    Let me put it this way to you, if Curry and Jefferies opt out of the last year of their contract, like I said both of their contracts next season is an option year, will the Knicks still have to take a cap hit on their salaries?

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    With all due respect back at ya, buying out Curry's and Jeffries contracst does NOT count against the cap after the season is over, it only counts during the current season. Hence, they will still have to pay the luxury tax against it this season but the cap will be freed up during the off season when they are trying to sign some big name players; it takes it off the books. Since both players have option years, the team could negotiate a buy out and the player, in curry's case, could not pick up his final year option and JJ has an early termination clasue in his. Now their salaries would be off the books after the season is over. Now, if they didn't have these options, then you would be correct. And if a team cuts a player, the team is still responsible for the contract; that is a different story. A player can refuse the buy out and then the team is screwed... As far as the mid-level goes, once again you missed my point... Even if a team is over the cap they can use their mid-level exception to sign a player... That's why there is a mid-level EXCEPTION!!! Yes it goes towards the cap but it doesn't affect their ability to sign free agents....That's why the NBA set's the CAP and Mid-Level
    That is how I understand it.... Correct me if I am wrong...
    I'm sorry but you're wrong with this one. I don't know how else to say it. Read the previous posts between my self and DANUTZ39.

    Plus, you're banking on Curry and Jeffries opting out of their final years of their contracts. That's not going to happen.

    Unfortunately we're stuck with Curry until his contact runs out. Jeffries may be traded but that is still unlikely. Translation...the 2010 plan is in serious jeopardy.

  11. #26
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    Default Player Option Contracts and teh Salary Cap

    I cannot cite a specific CBA provision covering the subject, and I would prefer taking SLY1984's advice and have a Heinekin instead of looking for it, but I believe that under the CBA in either a buy-out or a waiver, the original contract salary years continue for cap purposes.


    HomeTheatreGuy makes an imaginative observation. He says that if the last of the contract years is a player option year, perhaps it is treated differently. For example, Curry could opt out of his post-2010 contract year sometime on or just prior to July 1, 2010. Suppose the Knicks were to pay him something for opting out of his last contract year before he exercises his option. If Curry then declines, as is his right, to remain with the Knicks, what if anything will count as "Team Salary" going forward?

    My guess is that the Knicks will be stuck with the full opt-out salary amount. It is imaginative, but just too cute. In any event, if it could work to eliminate a last year, someone would have thought of it already.



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    Member Arod2k9's Avatar
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    Why would the Hawks trade their best player? Why would they trade him to us when we don't have what it takes to pull it off? This is the reason that I don't come to this site any longer, for threads like this. I know that there aren't any big news concerning the Knicks, but the season hasn't begun and what you see on team rosters is what you will see in December. Teams don't trade during training camp and early on the season. And no the Clippers and Knicks trade last season doesn't count since that trade should have been made in the offseason and not after we got to a 6-3 start.

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    I would love to see joe johnson come to NY... I followed him when he was on the bench in phoenix and i watch now more often now that i live in atlanta, and as a huge knick fan i think he is what are team needs and it would still allow us to attract another quality player to build with some of out youth... I say Joe,gallo,lee,chandler and either a bosh or maybe amare(dont llike how injury prone he is) cp3

  14. #29
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    Originally Posted by Arod2k9
    Why would the Hawks trade their best player? Why would they trade him to us when we don't have what it takes to pull it off? This is the reason that I don't come to this site any longer, for threads like this. I know that there aren't any big news concerning the Knicks, but the season hasn't begun and what you see on team rosters is what you will see in December. Teams don't trade during training camp and early on the season. And no the Clippers and Knicks trade last season doesn't count since that trade should have been made in the offseason and not after we got to a 6-3 start.
    STFU!!!!!!!!! Maybe because if they don't trade him before the deadline hes going to take his talent elswhere(more$$$)... They already offered him a extension and he denied it for a reason..

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    An interesting article suggesting that Atlanta should consider trading Joe Johnson. I would love to see the Knicks put together a trade for Johnson!!
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    If the Knicks could trade for him, I believe they could sin him after making 2 free agent signings. You could potentially have a starting lineup with Bosh, James, Johnson! NICE!!!
    Yea Johnson = No Lebron

    You need an all star guard with an all star forward...I'm more content with Johnson and Amare or Lebron and Bosh if you know what I mean.

    And i always saw Johnson being a Knick...funny thing is that when i play basketball video games i always wind up signing Joe Johnson on the Knicks lol In all seriousness...Mike and Donnie should go for a top Big man and a top guard.

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