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Thread: Knicks Won't Use Mobley In Trade

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Default Knicks Won't Use Mobley In Trade

    Seems like a wasted asset to me. Could have at least helped to move Jeffries. Sounds like Donnie was telling the truth when he said he didn't expect any trades this year.

    Great! In 2010 we will have a 6 man roster and not enough cap space to build a team.

    Knicks Won't Use Mobley In Trade

    Donnie Walsh said the Knicks are no longer seeking to use the contract of Cuttino Mobley in a trade.

    Insurance will cover much of the contract because Mobley retired due to a heart condition. That insurance made Mobley's contract an attractive asset for teams to acquire.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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    Member the portable man's Avatar
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    i cant believe im actually looking forward to the whole nets arena project

    and honestly, if any good free agent joins next year it'll look like david stern assignment

    these guys turned into a halfcourt team and end up taking even more threes than the suns and warriors fastbreak squads combined

    pathetic

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    The knicks are like the Buffalo Bills of the nba, it just makes me sick we went from the ewing and oakley era to this b.s. today..

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Seems like a wasted asset to me. Could have at least helped to move Jeffries. Sounds like Donnie was telling the truth when he said he didn't expect any trades this year.

    Great! In 2010 we will have a 6 man roster and not enough cap space to build a team.
    My thoughts exactly. I don't get why they wouldn't at least TRY to use him? Clear some space for somebody else and hopefully get some talent here doesn't sound so awful to me.

    I just wonder what the logic is behind not choosing to move what is essentially a useless piece...

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    Default Saving Money?

    The Madison Square Garden Corporation, which prominently includes the Knicks, was "spun off' from Cablevision earlier this year. It is now a "stand-alone" company, but still controlled by the Dolans. As a stand alone company it can no longer obscure its expenses within the consolidated bookkeeping of the obscenely profitable Cablevision.

    I am afraid that the Knicks are watching the bottom line with a little more care than in the past. I recall that when Isiah offered Jefferies his free agent contract, it was known that the $30M plus to Jefferies over the life of his contract would end up costing the Knicks $60M plus as the result of the luxury tax.

    Mobley's contract is valuable because it is 80% insured. If his contract were used in a trade, we would presumably be taking back a similar contract but payable at 100%. And I believe that Mobley's contract, though it counts against the cap, may not count for luxury tax purposes.

    Other than the generous one year contracts to Lee and Nate, the Knicks have avoided taking on any extra salary this year. But, given the fact that we remain subject to the luxury tax, the contracts to Lee and Nate were considerably above the team option amounts and the luxury tax will double the difference.

    Perhaps Walsh believes that he will be able to trade Jefferies
    for a similar but expiring contract and that even if he were to sweeten a deal for Curry with the Mobley contract, no one will be taking Curry.

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    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    It's all words.... TRUST ME. Just like we say last year, when Wash pulled the trigger as soon as he got the chance with Zach Randolph, Donnie is just bidding his time to deal Curry & Jeffries.

    When it comes to Mobley's contract, perchance nobody wants it. It was pssoibly valuable before the season started, but now that it's near.... it's clear what its value is.

    UNTIL the Knicks dump hi.... we'll see what happens.

    As for Jeffries, I think D'ant really likes his effort and team play, and ability to defend and do the dirty work. I think they hope they can find a taker come the trade deadline?

    I think a lot rides on Eddie Curry. Knicks need him to return, play well, so they can spin him off ASAFP to the first team who offers a bag of balls.

    We can live with Jeffries next year.... Curry is the killer (and even if we tossed in MObley's contract he'll be TOUGH to deal).

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mafra
    It's all words.... TRUST ME. Just like we say last year, when Wash pulled the trigger as soon as he got the chance with Zach Randolph, Donnie is just bidding his time to deal Curry & Jeffries.

    When it comes to Mobley's contract, perchance nobody wants it. It was pssoibly valuable before the season started, but now that it's near.... it's clear what its value is.

    UNTIL the Knicks dump hi.... we'll see what happens.

    As for Jeffries, I think D'ant really likes his effort and team play, and ability to defend and do the dirty work. I think they hope they can find a taker come the trade deadline?

    I think a lot rides on Eddie Curry. Knicks need him to return, play well, so they can spin him off ASAFP to the first team who offers a bag of balls.

    We can live with Jeffries next year.... Curry is the killer (and even if we tossed in MObley's contract he'll be TOUGH to deal).
    Honestly, what teams would give up expiring contracts for Jeffries or Curry? Expiring contracts are very valuable these days. The only teams willing to give up expiring contracts are contending teams that need that last piece to put them over the top. Curry and Jeffries are not that last piece for any team.

    Although Donnie was able to move Crawford and Zach, there are two important facts about those deals that are different. 1.) Both players were leading scorers and contributors. 2.) They were traded for deals that expired two years from the time they were traded.

    1.) Jeffries and Curry contribute jack ****. 2.) We need expiring deals for this year (too valuable).

    It will be a miracle if both those players are moved. I think it's time Donnie start looking into other options. Maybe adjust the 2010 plan a little.

    As it stands right now, we will be left with a roster of 6 players (Curry, Jeffries, Gallo, Chandler, Hill and Douglas) and only $28 mil to get 6-7 players. And that's a best case scenario. I hate to think about how ****ty this team will be next year if the cap is lower. We will be much, much worse.

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Honestly, what teams would give up expiring contracts for Jeffries or Curry? Expiring contracts are very valuable these days. The only teams willing to give up expiring contracts are contending teams that need that last piece to put them over the top. Curry and Jeffries are not that last piece for any team.

    Although Donnie was able to move Crawford and Zach, there are two important facts about those deals that are different. 1.) Both players were leading scorers and contributors. 2.) They were traded for deals that expired two years from the time they were traded.

    1.) Jeffries and Curry contribute jack ****. 2.) We need expiring deals for this year (too valuable).

    It will be a miracle if both those players are moved. I think it's time Donnie start looking into other options. Maybe adjust the 2010 plan a little.

    As it stands right now, we will be left with a roster of 6 players (Curry, Jeffries, Gallo, Chandler, Hill and Douglas) and only $28 mil to get 6-7 players. And that's a best case scenario. I hate to think about how ****ty this team will be next year if the cap is lower. We will be much, much worse.
    Well put, except in the last paragraph you miss something huge...We have $28 million to get 6-7 players yes, but we own Bird Rights to Lee, Robinsons and (I believe) Harrington. Therefore, we CAN go over the cap to get them.

    I'm not sure how their Bird Rights are counted, but presuming we sign 4 guys at an average of 7 million a piece, we can go over the top for Lee, Robinson and Harrington (if we want to), at least that's my understanding of the rule. Additionally, rookie contracts are excepted from the salary cap, not that we have a first round pick, but we could make a trade for one to clear up a ton of cap room in one felt swoop.

    Also, there is a bi-annual exception. Granted it's only like a million dollars, but assuming we haven't used that yet we can use that to reduce our cap hit.

    And of course everyone is talking about the mid-level exception, remember it CAN be split amongst several free agents to reduce our hit across the board.

    This team will be fine, honestly the flexibility we have right NOW, though it looks grim, is way better than what we had in the Isiah days...It's not as bad as it looks.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Well put, except in the last paragraph you miss something huge...We have $28 million to get 6-7 players yes, but we own Bird Rights to Lee, Robinsons and (I believe) Harrington. Therefore, we CAN go over the cap to get them.

    I'm not sure how their Bird Rights are counted, but presuming we sign 4 guys at an average of 7 million a piece, we can go over the top for Lee, Robinson and Harrington (if we want to), at least that's my understanding of the rule. Additionally, rookie contracts are excepted from the salary cap, not that we have a first round pick, but we could make a trade for one to clear up a ton of cap room in one felt swoop.

    Also, there is a bi-annual exception. Granted it's only like a million dollars, but assuming we haven't used that yet we can use that to reduce our cap hit.

    And of course everyone is talking about the mid-level exception, remember it CAN be split amongst several free agents to reduce our hit across the board.

    This team will be fine, honestly the flexibility we have right NOW, though it looks grim, is way better than what we had in the Isiah days...It's not as bad as it looks.
    I agree with you that things are better than the Isiah days. But you are incorrect about owning the Bird Rights to the aforementioned players. It costs 1.5 times the player's final year salary to retain their Bird Rights. For example, Lee is making $7 mil this year so it will cost $10.5 mil to retain his Bird Rights. This money counts against our available cap space.

    So essentially we will not own the Bird Rights to any of our players. We can't afford to retain anybody's Bird Rights and still get a max free agent. Everyone will be unrestricted free agents next year and we will only have $28 mil in cap space and only 6 players on the roster. Any other players added (e.g. long term deals w/ the mid-level exception) will count against the available cap space in 2011.

    This is why I've been saying that Donnie needs to begin exploring other options. If Jeffries and Curry could be traded for expiring contracts I would say everything is fine. But I don't think they can be traded for something so valuable.

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I agree with you that things are better than the Isiah days. But you are incorrect about owning the Bird Rights to the aforementioned players. It costs 1.5 times the player's final year salary to retain their Bird Rights. For example, Lee is making $7 mil this year so it will cost $10.5 mil to retain his Bird Rights. This money counts against our available cap space.

    So essentially we will not own the Bird Rights to any of our players. We can't afford to retain anybody's Bird Rights and still get a max free agent. Everyone will be unrestricted free agents next year and we will only have $28 mil in cap space and only 6 players on the roster. Any other players added (e.g. long term deals w/ the mid-level exception) will count against the available cap space in 2011.

    This is why I've been saying that Donnie needs to begin exploring other options. If Jeffries and Curry could be traded for expiring contracts I would say everything is fine. But I don't think they can be traded for something so valuable.
    Hmmm...I see what you are saying, it's pretty accurate except I believe there is a loophole.

    You CAN renounce a player's Bird rights, and as such it will not count against your cap...but if that player resigns with the team the Bird rights are renewed. Now, this is going to get complex but bear with me:

    If the Knicks renounce the rights to Lee and Nate, then split the MLE on the two of them (about 3 million per), they COULD, in theory, resign the two of them to one year deals (again) at about 8 million (which is a little high), which, after the MLE 5 million per year, or 10 million for the two of them. That means the Knicks would have 18 million to spend in cap room on the rest of their roster, attempt to move Al Harrington and the rest during the season for draft picks (which, upon signing, do not count against the cap). This would leave room for a max player and we'd still have room to maneuver. It IS complex, but it CAN be done.

    I agree with you though, Donnie needs to keep all of his options open. At the very least what the 1 year contracts of Lee and Robinson and the expiring deal of Harrington do is provide insanely valuable trading chips. A team that wants and can afford the Bird rights to any of the three will be salivating for these players. I think they'll be fine.
    Last edited by KBlack25; Oct 14, 2009 at 20:17.

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Hmmm...I see what you are saying, it's pretty accurate except I believe there is a loophole.

    You CAN renounce a player's Bird rights, and as such it will not count against your cap...but if that player resigns with the team the Bird rights are renewed. Now, this is going to get complex but bear with me:

    If the Knicks renounce the rights to Lee and Nate, then split the MLE on the two of them (about 3 million per), they COULD, in theory, resign the two of them to one year deals (again) at about 8 million (which is a little high), which, after the MLE 5 million per year, or 10 million for the two of them. That means the Knicks would have 18 million to spend in cap room on the rest of their roster, attempt to move Al Harrington and the rest during the season for draft picks (which, upon signing, do not count against the cap). This would leave room for a max player and we'd still have room to maneuver. It IS complex, but it CAN be done.

    I agree with you though, Donnie needs to keep all of his options open. At the very least what the 1 year contracts of Lee and Robinson and the expiring deal of Harrington do is provide insanely valuable trading chips. A team that wants and can afford the Bird rights to any of the three will be salivating for these players. I think they'll be fine.
    Creative, but highly unlikely. I don't see Lee and Nate signing 1 year deals with us again. Especially since they will be unrestricted free agents next year.

    I suppose with $28 mil in cap space (remember, this is best case cap scenario) we could give Lee $9 mil, Harrington $9 mil, Duhon/or Nate $5 mil, and Darko $5 mil. We would have the same ****ty team next year but at least we will still have a team. And then wait for Jeffries' and Curry's contract to expire in 2011 and go after max players then.

    This is probably the more likely scenario. Although I have a feeling Knick fans patience will be really tested this year and I doubt anybody would stand for another year of crap after sacrificing so much already.

    As currently construced the 2010 plan will not build a team. Plus, I don't see any max player wanting to sign with a team of Jeffries, Curry, Chandler, Hill, Gallo and Douglas. That collection of players is much worse than any one of the max-players current rosters.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Creative, but highly unlikely. I don't see Lee and Nate signing 1 year deals with us again. Especially since they will be unrestricted free agents next year.

    I suppose with $28 mil in cap space (remember, this is best case cap scenario) we could give Lee $9 mil, Harrington $9 mil, Duhon/or Nate $5 mil, and Darko $5 mil. We would have the same ****ty team next year but at least we will still have a team. And then wait for Jeffries' and Curry's contract to expire in 2011 and go after max players then.

    This is probably the more likely scenario. Although I have a feeling Knick fans patience will be really tested this year and I doubt anybody would stand for another year of crap after sacrificing so much already.

    As currently construced the 2010 plan will not build a team. Plus, I don't see any max player wanting to sign with a team of Jeffries, Curry, Chandler, Hill, Gallo and Douglas. That collection of players is much worse than any one of the max-players current rosters.


    I AGREE 100 % there is no point to get a max player when you have these bums left over. resign the people who will bring talent then go all out 2011.......lebron would be nice though....

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    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    Hey, I'm not saying I approve of the DW plan, or that it'll work, but it's clear that DW wanted to do 3 things when he arrived (and I was against his hiring- I felt Colangelo would be a better fit):

    1- Clear cap space and change the culture.
    2- Draft wisely
    3- Seek prime free agent horses in 2010, 2011

    I think Zach's attitude (and contract) made him priority #1. Ship him out of town.

    I think the Crawfird deal had more to do with opportunity than anything else. I mean, DW knows (and likes) Harrington. This had more to do with that fact than it had to do about Crawford. I think the 2010 contract made the deal sweater. BUT, to be honest, these 2 players are almost clones of one another- except for the fact that Al is taller. SO, this was a win-win all around.

    NOW, let's look at the DW drafts. Sure, having Gordon or Lopez seems like a better bargain right now. I wanted Eric Gordon. I felt he was strong, and was the most reliable selection. IF WE REALLY were planning on 2010 free agency, I felt it best to take the SAFEST bet in that draft. Gordon was that guy. BUT, we saw last year how a guy like Turkoglu, Odom or Lewis is a rare gem in this modern NBA. A BIG body who can handle the rock, run the offense and shoot. SO, while Gordon and Lopez seem like solid players, Danillo does have a higher ceiling than those players.... Will it pan out? Maybe not.

    With this draft we had little choice. We couldn't deal Wilson Chandler for Curry or Rubio. We were left with little choice. We might look back and say Henderson (or some other guy) appears to be the better pick; but right now our future is in the hands of Danillo, Hill & Douglas.

    Toss in Chandler. I think Lee and Harrington will be retained.

    There's our future. OUr only hope to recruit a Lebron James is for these core guys to show it this year. IF they can break out and prove they have potential, TRUST ME it will go a long way to sway a star to come aboard.

    This is where a guy like Darko can have an impact to. He can play the role of defensive C, who can run the floor. BAM! Another role filled.

    NOW, as for J-Jeffries. I think he does have value. It seems like he improved on his offensive game. We will see. If he hits open shot, and continues do everything else he does (guard the post and the perimeter) he will have value. A team like WAS already sort of likes him. WHO KNOWS what happens with injuries. If Jeffries plays well, he might draw interest from a potential playoff team with a need. Who knows.

    As for Curry. He has little chance to be moved. I concur. I felt the only hope was for him to come back and return to his old form, when he scored in the paint. An aging team like DALLAS feels like an ideal fit. They have an owner who is williing to spend, they don't have much offense in the paint, and their time is NOW. They need a big body to bang in the Western Conf. Our only hope to rid ourselves of Curry is for him to return and score 18 ppg in the post, and then ship him to DAL.

    BUT, for the most part, you are right. DW has put all his eggs in one basket. If we get spurned again next summer, we are in trouble. We will be doomed if DW failed to procur talent in the last 2 years. You cannot blow those opportunities and survive. If he cannot get Lebron, and then plan-B fails (to attract 2 all-star players like Bosh and Johnson), and if Danillo and Hill don't show much this year.... DW would have failed, and set the Knicks back another decade.

    Let's go Yankees. Let CC dominate. Make Lebron happy, and have his good buddy show Lebron how special it is to win in NYC!

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mafra

    Toss in Chandler. I think Lee and Harrington will be retained.

    There's our future. OUr only hope to recruit a Lebron James is for these core guys to show it this year. IF they can break out and prove they have potential, TRUST ME it will go a long way to sway a star to come aboard.

    This is where a guy like Darko can have an impact to. He can play the role of defensive C, who can run the floor. BAM! Another role filled.
    Problem. We can't afford Lebron, Lee, Harrington and Darko with the available cap space. We can only afford 1 max player and 1 of those players.

    $28 mil - $17 mil (max player) = $11 mil. $9 mil to Lee leaves us with $2 mil to fill 5 more roster spots.

    We can't get a max player and still have a team in 2010.

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    I like how as Knick fans we've all become so damn intelligent when it comes to cap and contract issues.

    Eat your heart out rest of the league.

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