Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27

Thread: Walsh Blames IT's scouts for the Brandon Jennings Error

  1. #1
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,318
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Walsh Blames IT's scouts for the Brandon Jennings Error

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Knicks see patience as an asset

    NEW YORK -- Brandon Jennings could have helped the Knicks, as president Donnie Walsh realized last July while watching the 6-foot-1 rookie attack the Las Vegas Summer League.

    Walsh tried to turn the episode into one of those "teachable moments."

    "When I saw him play in Vegas, I did go to our scouts and I told them, 'Look, if you knew he was that good you should have come to me every day in my office and said, 'You've got to look at this guy,'" said Walsh. "I said, 'I listened to you. You said, 'He's good,' but that was about it."

    Instead of drafting Jennings to fill their need for a leader at point guard, the Knicks used the No. 8 pick on power forward Jordan Hill, who is so raw he has earned no more than 7.8 minutes in nine games for 4-14 New York. The Knicks' choice created gasps of relief in Milwaukee, where the Bucks used the No. 10 pick on Jennings, who was the top player on their board. The 20-year old has turned out better than even the Bucks envisioned while averaging 21.8 points, 5.7 assists and 1.2 steals to lift them to a surprising 9-7 start.

    This was not a franchise-killing mistake by the Knicks. Jennings may cool down after his hot start, and Hill may yet learn to fulfill his athletic potential.

    The decision to pass on Jennings is above all an example of how Walsh is steadily attempting to transform his franchise without resorting to quick fixes. For one thing, he has continued to rely on a scouting staff assembled by predecessor Isiah Thomas. "When I come in anywhere, I don't fire everybody," said Walsh. "I wanted to give the scouts, the front office people, the opportunity to show me what they can do. So I just haven't [replaced them]."

    It's not like he hasn't had other things to do: Walsh has created cap space for 2010 while instilling the Knicks with newfound financial discipline across the board. "I could have hired some amazing people," said Walsh, who was rumored to be courting Billy Knight, Chris Mullin and Mark Warkentien as prospective GMs. "But there are some things you can't ask the owner to do, and that's eat some of these (front-office and scouting department) numbers."

    It's fair to assume that Cablevision's ongoing spin-off of Madison Square Garden involves a scrutiny of the books and a demand for fiscal responsibility. But Walsh would be pursuing restraint under any circumstances.

    "This is a true rebuilding job in a lot of ways, other than just personnel," he said. "It's culture, it's everything."

    That's why he takes a big-picture view of the decision to bypass Jennings. Ultimately the responsibility for that move falls on Walsh, who made astute draft picks thanks to the deep scouting staff he assembled in Indiana during his 22 years in charge of the Pacers. "When the draft room opens up, you've got to tell me what you think and don't play politics with it," he said, while acknowledging that he must differentiate the boldly-opinionated scouts from the fence-sitters who bend with the prevailing opinion. "Unfortunately, every scouting room does do that -- they check out where the coach is, you know, and they try to align themselves. I knew who they were in Indiana; here I didn't quite know.

    "But I'm in good company," added Walsh of his ambivalent view of Jennings before the draft. "Because there were a lot of guys who passed on him and didn't know his game."

    Eventually Walsh will keep some current staffers for the long-term and replace others. But it goes without saying that some of the people he inherited were unwilling to stick their necks out for him, if for no other reason than they didn't know him and lacked rapport with the new boss. "It could be that," he said. "And I'm trying to change it. I put Misho (Ostarcevic, the Knicks' new player personnel director) -- a guy I had in Indiana -- in charge of [scouting] for that reason."

    Walsh has also hired former Orlando GM John Gabriel as director of pro scouting and free agency. "It's kind of like what I'm hearing with the players: They don't think they're going to be here, so they don't want to play hard," said Walsh. "I'm like, 'What are you talking about?' They've got to play hard, and I haven't said I wouldn't take them back (as free agents), because if they're good enough, that would be one of my options. So that doesn't compute to me, the same way if you've got scouts working for you -- they work for the New York Knicks."

    More important to Walsh was his 2008 hiring of coach Mike D'Antoni, who had won 232 games over four full seasons with Phoenix. D'Antoni remains the Knicks' biggest asset as they move toward free agency with cap space for one max player this summer in addition to a second free agent who can be paid more than the mid-level exception. Walsh has noticed that opposing stars personally greet D'Antoni on the sideline before playing against his Knicks. "Oh yeah, every one of them," said Walsh. "I think a lot of it had to do with the Olympic team (which D'Antoni served as assistant). The word got around about the way he plays, the way he coaches, and people have liked it."

    "He's the most positive guy I've ever met," said Walsh, who then recalled how D'Antoni tried last summer to convince himself that New York's transitional roster could be a big winner this season. "He'd tell me that, and I'd say, 'Mike ... be careful.' He might over-emphasize what they can do and what they can't do." D'Antoni's optimism was rewarded as the Knicks shocked the West-leading Suns -- and themselves -- with a 126-99 upset Tuesday, but D'Antoni wisely declined to make too much of one win by his 4-14 team.

    The NBA separation of church and state -- the checks and balances that balance winning in the short term and planning for the years ahead -- is clearly defined in New York. When the Knicks upgrade their roster they'll have a coach capable of exploiting that talent. In the meantime they have a 68-year-old president who is capable of absorbing the painful transformation.

    "If a younger guy took this job, the pressures on him [would] be tremendous to do something to make this team better this year," said Walsh from his courtside seat Tuesday during the pregame warmups. "I'm not there anymore. In fact, a couple of young GMs called me up (after the Knicks hired him in April 2008) and said, 'Congratulations on New York ... but boy, you've got a tough job.'

    "I said, 'Let me tell you something. If you're going to take a job like this, make sure it's your last job. Because if you're trying to build your reputation it might be harder on a (young) guy. I've had my day in the sun and all that."

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    122
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    There is no excuse for them to have passed on Jennings for Hill. He failed, as did his scouts. And he should not be trying to say his scouts didnt pull for Jennings enough.

  3. #3
    Superstar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    962
    Rep Power
    8

    Default

    Honestly no one could have predicted Jennings...his jumper wasn't good in Euro League....there are usually very few 100% hit players in the draft who came pretty much outta high school.

  4. #4
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,845
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Man...can't stand this donkeysht excuse about how "alllllllllllll" these many teams supposedly just passed on Jennings, as if he wasn't that well thought of his during his workouts leading up to the draft.

    1, we needed a PG...more than *ANYONE*, given our roster and our coach.

    We don't do diddly**** to trade for one, and we then **** the bed when our pick comes.

    2,we then take a shot on a supremely raw FORWARD, vs. a very raw yet very skilled and more accomplished PG? A PG who *publically* declared he wanted to play for us in The Garden.

    I'm too sickened to relive the draft right now, but *not* many teams passed on Jennings to pick anyone but supremely skilled, less-risky guards. But ya, tons of teams passed on him after we picked Hill...o wait....
    Last edited by iSaYughh; Dec 03, 2009 at 16:19.

  5. #5
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,318
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Man...can't stand this donkeysht excuse about how "alllllllllllll" these many teams supposedly just passed on Jennings, as if he wasn't that well thought of his during his workouts leading up to the draft.

    1, we needed a PG...more than *ANYONE*, given our roster and our coach.

    We don't do diddly**** to trade for one, and we then **** the bed when our pick comes.

    2,we then take a shot on a supremely raw FORWARD, vs. a very raw yet very skilled and more accomplished PG? A PG who *publically* declared he wanted to play for us in The Garden.

    I'm too sickened to relive the draft right now, but *not* many teams passed on Jennings to pick anyone but supremely skilled, less-risky guards. But ya, tons of teams passed on him after we picked Hill...o wait....
    I have to say this.... I was against drafting BJ, mainly b/c I bought into the hype about his poor humper, poor attitude and low basketball IQ. I was adamant that there were 2 guys I didn't want- Hill and Jennings.

    I loved Evans, Curry & Rubio. I also loved Lawson, although I wondered if 8th was too high (mabe trade back a little). BUT, I was high on Terence Williams & Gerald Henderson as safe, fallback options.

    OK.... now that I admitted such....

    THIS IS SUCH BS THAT ALL THESE TEAMS PASSED ON JENNINGS. REALLY!

    There are 30 NBA teams. MIL went pick BJ with the 10th pick. MIN had 2 picks. SO, in reality, only 8 teams passed on BJ. EIGHT! That hardly qualifies as most or alot.

    AND, if we look even further.... LAC didn't pass on BJ. They had the #1 pick and drafted the draft's best player in Blake Griffin.

    MEM didn't realy pass on BJ either. They drafted Mayo the year before and had Mike Conley. They needed (and wanted) a center- and so they drafted Thabet.

    OKC didn't pass on BJ either.... They drafted a PG (Westbrook) last year.

    SO, the first 3 teams get a free pass b/c none were looking for a PG (and they all had the pick of the litter if they wished).

    BASICALLY, FIVE TEAMS PASSED ON BRANDON JENNINGS. Last I checked, 5 of 30 is 1/6. Less than 20 percent is a huge majority. SO, only a select few morons are in the WE PASSED/MISSED on BJ Club!

    Can we blame SAC for passing on BJ? They got Tyreke Evans. A legit player, who many had rated as high as BJ. SO, still hard to fault them (and the dude is playing well).

    SO, it might boil down to MIN-GSW-NYK-TOR as the fools. MIN took TWO PGs. GSW grabbed a PG. At least NYK didn;t take a PG (but it appears they were set to take Evans or Curry over BJ anyway), and then TOR passed.

    I guess you can toss in WAS as another team who declined or differed.

    SO.... there you have it. Let's stop with the mantra that most teams passed on BJ. That just isn't true. Only a few select idiots did that.

  6. #6
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,050
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    I can't believe Walsh is even claiming ignorance on Jennings. Walsh knew enough to draft that big donut Gallinari sight unseen, and he played in Italy also. At least Jennings was a us born player, so somebody should have known something along the way. Thats lottery picks we have blown two years running. Look no further than that when you wonder why this team sucks so badly.

  7. #7
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,845
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Mafra, precisely! I had reservations about BJ pre-draft, too.....BUT, our team **** the bed, plain and simple:

    It is their job to be correct more than *any* fan could ever be, and their two big excuses are, as you pointed out in a dif thread, that they didn't know enuff (SMH), and now it's, 'well, the world passed on BJ...not like we are super-geniuses to pick BJ when we badly needed a PG more than anyone..the world was passing on BJ!" (SMMFH).

    *And*, we drafted a BIG risk.....BIG project....it's not like we took Lawson let alone anything resembling a "sure thing" over BJ.

    We basically took a BIGGER risk on a BIGGER project on a position we don't really need. While shafting the position we needed more than ANYONE.

    You broke it down perfectly....there were VERY few fools who passed on BJ; and given the context of team needs and rosters, WE are the biggest fool.

  8. #8
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,318
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    I can't believe Walsh is even claiming ignorance on Jennings. Walsh knew enough to draft that big donut Gallinari sight unseen, and he played in Italy also. At least Jennings was a us born player, so somebody should have known something along the way. Thats lottery picks we have blown two years running. Look no further than that when you wonder why this team sucks so badly.
    BJ was the #1 rated player coming out of High School. Mcdonald's All American. I think when he skipped a Euro workout, teams took that snub as s sign and wanted to stick it to him.

    BUT, talent is talent. Even if he wasn't the future.... You think Walsh would have been able to trade BJ after this season for a draft pick? For Rubio? Or even to NO in a package for the disgruntled Chris Paul?

    As for Gallo.... Jury is still out. Dude is 6"10 and can shoot (leads NBA in made 3s). Guys like Eric Gordon grow on trees. A TALL shooter is rare.

  9. #9
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,318
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Mafra, precisely! I had reservations about BJ pre-draft, too.....BUT, our team **** the bed, plain and simple:

    It is their job to be correct more than *any* fan could ever be, and their two big excuses are, as you pointed out in a dif thread, that they didn't know enuff (SMH), and now it's, 'well, the world passed on BJ...not like we are super-geniuses to pick BJ when we badly needed a PG more than anyone..the world was passing on BJ!" (SMMFH).

    *And*, we drafted a BIG risk.....BIG project....it's not like we took Lawson let alone anything resembling a "sure thing" over BJ.

    We basically took a BIGGER risk on a BIGGER project on a position we don't really need. While shafting the position we needed more than ANYONE.

    You broke it down perfectly....there were VERY few fools who passed on BJ; and given the context of team needs and rosters, WE are the biggest fool.
    It was just insane to pass on a PG in a draft full of PGs. AND, if we grabbed a PG we could have taken a Dejuan Blair, Chase Buddinger, Marcus Thornton with our 2nd first round selection.

    I mean, here you have D'ant and his SSOL offense is predicated on having a true, legitimate quick PG who can shoot the 3 and have loads of energy (They loved Curry and Evans, but BJ and Lawson both fit the mold, no). Not to mention they had no other options to play PG on the roster come 2010, and nothing available on the free agent market?

    THEN, as you said, they take a PF when this team has loads of PFs?

    I threw up in my mouth when I heard Hill. I was chanting while we were on the clock, uttering this phrase: ANYONE BUT HILL, ANYONE BUT HILL.

    It was more than having to stomach watching a 1-year wonder in Hill shoot 6-18 w/ 4 turnovers in NCAA against Louisville.

    The point was we had TWO lottery picks to prepare for 2010. We had to hit. We went risky with Gallo (passing on Gordon on Hill); so you would think you would compliment that pick in 2009, right?

    So they drafted another PF? WHAT? Another project?

    This was my main beef with the Hill selection. We could afford to reach with one pick, but not with both.

    Gallo-Lawson/BJ-Blair would've been nice.

    And to be told they weren't prepared, when thwy had ALL YEAR to research?

    That's unacceptable.

    NOW I will admit that Hill has real potential to be something in D'ant's system. Like a Boris Diaw. Just don't know if any potential free agent next summer will read much into that!

  10. #10
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,845
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Originally Posted by mafra
    BJ was the #1 rated player coming out of High School. Mcdonald's All American. I think when he skipped a Euro workout, teams took that snub as s sign and wanted to stick it to him.

    BUT, talent is talent. Even if he wasn't the future.... You think Walsh would have been able to trade BJ after this season for a draft pick? For Rubio? Or even to NO in a package for the disgruntled Chris Paul?

    As for Gallo.... Jury is still out. Dude is 6"10 and can shoot (leads NBA in made 3s). Guys like Eric Gordon grow on trees. A TALL shooter is rare.
    Gallo pick was a ballsy pick, for sure, but you're right that you really can't rag on it. Dude is showing a beautiful shot, he is *still* essentially something like a rook while acclimating to the NBA, and his slashing ability is what he was known for and we are seeing more and more develop.

    I'd 100% want to have Gallo on the team vs. Eric Gordon. Brook Lopez, though....meh...

    Seems like Gallo can be a blend of Turkuglo and Rashard Lewis, and get there faster than anyone thought.

    The two drafts really can't be compared, IMO. The Gallo draft remains to be seen for sure, but no matter what it's tough to crucify us for what we did, and Gallo looks like a hybrid beast in the making.

    This last draft, however....looks to be a total abortion to our franchise, and reeks of Isiahtardation already.

  11. #11
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,581
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Not going to blame the Knicks for passing on Jennings, smallish PG, 19 years old, looked like he was a few years from being ready but why take a guy like Hill who looks raw as hell. If you were going to draft a project, draft someone at a position you need. Guess Donnie wanted someone to take the place of Lee when he leaves.

  12. #12
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,318
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Originally Posted by tiger0330
    Not going to blame the Knicks for passing on Jennings, smallish PG, 19 years old, looked like he was a few years from being ready but why take a guy like Hill who looks raw as hell. If you were going to draft a project, draft someone at a position you need. Guess Donnie wanted someone to take the place of Lee when he leaves.
    I agree 1000%.

    BJ is small. How will his body hold up during the course of 82 games, year in and year out.

    What impresses me with BJ (even more than his ppg avg) is his mentality- avoiding the nightlife, wanting to make others aorund him better, his swagger. STILL, I think Toney Douglas is a poor man's version of BJ, who actually plays better defense. It's easier to teach a guy to pass the ball than play defense.

    I think we're going to be surprised with the Hill selection. This was a classic case of BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE. He was rated as the #2 best big man on their draft board. He can shoot, and is the perfect fit for D'ants offensive system. In 2-3 years we might be WOWed about this pick.

    I also will reserve judgement until I wait to see how the PG position is addressed. Maybe he thinks he can still get Rubio. Maybe Walsh felt there was a PG he could trade for this year (that would prove to be better than BJ or Lawson).

    Who knows.

  13. #13
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,845
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Originally Posted by mafra
    I mean, here you have D'ant and his SSOL offense is predicated on having a true, legitimate quick PG who can shoot the 3 and have loads of energy (They loved Curry and Evans, but BJ and Lawson both fit the mold, no). Not to mention they had no other options to play PG on the roster come 2010, and nothing available on the free agent market?

    This was my main beef with the Hill selection. We could afford to reach with one pick, but not with both.

    Gallo-Lawson/BJ-Blair would've been nice.

    And to be told they weren't prepared, when thwy had ALL YEAR to research?
    Right on. It is insane to think *just* how superior our team would be if we picked Lawson or BJ....let alone throwing in the obv valuepick of Blair. A core of Lawson/BJ--Blair--Gallo....we then showcase-trade Chandler/Lee/Harrington/N8/etc to give us a shot at 2 FA's, and/or picks...and to be able to get 2 FA's is HUGE to our "plan", because there is a premium on us showing LeBron & Co. that we have the goods to be a title-team ASAP.

    Speaking of Blair....ppl mainly worried his body will fail at some point in his career and he'd be done for good. Ok, fine, but THAT is a spot you make a reach and gamble for a guy, and for a forward. Especially because of the way a Blair could/would produce in the immediate future, it is something we NEED as we move forward with the "2010 plan".

    All we hear about is the 2010-Plan...how come we don't seem to be actually doing all the things we can to make that plan a success?

    We'll see if Walsh whips out some jedi mind tricks and get's us a PG this FA....we need Minny or Nets to wind up with Wall.

    EDIT -- if Walsh ends up w/ a PG somehow....Fernandez, Harris...let alone Rubio or Flynn...and we keep Hill....I'd bow down, but it seems like a total reach unless he has inside info we have no clue about.
    Last edited by iSaYughh; Dec 03, 2009 at 17:39.

  14. #14
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,318
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    That's why I'll wait until next summer before I really start to judge what Walsh has done.

    I do agree about going BIG in the draft. If you're going to swing and miss, might as well do it reaching for a BIG body. Especially those BIGS with rare skill sets (athleticism and shooting ability).

    One thing we forget about Gallo and Hill is their work ethic. They're only going to improve.

    This time last year we wanted to scream b/c LAC got Eric Gordon. NOW, most of us would take Gallo over Gordon.

    Let's just hope HIll proves all of us wrong.

    I think Walsh has two missions ths season, and he MUST acocmplish one before next July- (1) Trade Curry and/or Jeffries; (2) Find a PG.

    Get on it DW.

  15. #15
    Sexy Stud knickzrulezH20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,781
    Rep Power
    8

    Default

    Originally Posted by mafra
    That's why I'll wait until next summer before I really start to judge what Walsh has done.

    I do agree about going BIG in the draft. If you're going to swing and miss, might as well do it reaching for a BIG body. Especially those BIGS with rare skill sets (athleticism and shooting ability).

    One thing we forget about Gallo and Hill is their work ethic. They're only going to improve.

    This time last year we wanted to scream b/c LAC got Eric Gordon. NOW, most of us would take Gallo over Gordon.

    Let's just hope HIll proves all of us wrong.

    I think Walsh has two missions ths season, and he MUST acocmplish one before next July- (1) Trade Curry and/or Jeffries; (2) Find a PG.

    Get on it DW.

    was watchin the knicks game on the orlando magic broadcast online, and those announcers were sayin hill isnt the hardest worker. it says something when a guy drafted 21 spots under you is getting significantly more time that you, and is significantly better than you. hopefuly hill isnt a slacker, cause he has a ****LOAD of room for improvement.

Similar Threads

  1. I Told You So!!!
    By TR1LL10N in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Nov 19, 2009, 17:52
  2. Walsh Transcript
    By Crazy⑧s in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Jun 23, 2009, 14:20
  3. Brandon Jennings on Ricky Rubio: He is all hype
    By DANUTZ39 in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: Jun 17, 2009, 16:40
  4. Replies: 11
    Last Post: Jun 08, 2009, 14:35
  5. Replies: 219
    Last Post: Apr 15, 2009, 06:35

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •