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    1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

    DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

    As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations [“the times of the Gentiles,” King James Version] are fulfilled.” Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on “Jehovah’s throne” as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.

    How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be “trampled on by the nations”? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. “Jehovah’s throne” became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has “the legal right” to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.

    When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: “Let seven times pass over it.”—Daniel 4:10-16.

    In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of “seven times.” How long a period is that?

    Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal “a thousand two hundred and sixty days.” “Seven times” would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of “a day for a year,” the “seven times” would cover 2,520 years.

    The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

    Just as Jesus predicted, his “presence” as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of “the last days” of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

    [Footnote]
    From October 607 B.C.E. to October 1 B.C.E. is 606 years. Since there is no zero year, from October 1 B.C.E. to October 1914 C.E. is 1,914 years. By adding 606 years and 1,914 years, we get 2,520 years. For information on Jerusalem’s fall in 607 B.C.E., see the article “Chronology” in Insight on the Scriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    [Diagram/Pictures on page 216]
    (For fully formatted text, see publication)
    “SEVEN TIMES”
    2,520 years
    606 1/4 years 1,913 3/4 years
    October 607 B.C.E. to January 1, 1 C.E. to
    December 31, 1 B.C.E. October 1914
    607 ← B.C.E C.E. → 1914
    “Jerusalem will be “He comes who has
    trampled on by the nations” the legal right”

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Paul, I have practiced Christianity, probably over ten years ago. I don't believe in it. I will never believe in it. I can respect some of its teachings, many of which most Christians cannot even understand. However, I cannot believe in something that I have no evidence of.

    This is why I like many of the Eastern religions, they teach people how to be good, how to grow in freedom and understanding of the world and themselves. It does not use reward and punishment to keep you prisoner, either.

    You should give it a try.
    AH! I see were your views come from now....Eastern Mysticism that has now branched into the New Age movement.
    I respect your honesty but you have to understand the growing movement you are a part of.
    I copied this from a guy that use to follow Eastern Mysticism all the way and then was born again but his understanding of the New Age movement is top notch:What is the New Age Movement?
    The New Age (NAM) movement has many sub-divisions, but it is generally a collection of Eastern-influenced metaphysical thought systems, a conglomeration of theologies, hopes, and expectations held together with an eclectic teaching of salvation, of "correct thinking," and "correct knowledge." It is a theology of "feel-goodism," "universal tolerance," and "moral relativism."
    In the NAM Man is central. He is viewed as divine, as co-creator, as the hope for future peace and harmony. A representative quote might be: "I am affected only by my thoughts. It needs but this to let salvation come to all the world. For in this single thought is everyone released at last from fear." (A course in Miracles, The Foundation for Inner Peace, Huntington Station, N.Y. Lesson 228, p. 461.)
    Unfortunately for the NAM, the fear from which they want to be released might very well be the fear of damnation, of conviction of sin, and it is even, sometimes, fear of Christianity and Christians. Though the NAM is tolerant of almost any theological position, it is opposed to the "narrow-mindedness" of Christianity that teaches Jesus is the only way and that there are moral absolutes.
    The NAM is difficult to define because "there is no hierarchy, dogma, doctrine, collection plate, or membership." It is a collection, an assortment of different theologies with the common threads of toleration and divergence weaving through its tapestry of "universal truth."
    The term "New Age" refers to the "Aquarian Age" which, according to New Age followers, is dawning. It is supposed to bring in peace and enlightenment and reunite man with God. Man is presently considered separated from God not because of sin (Isaiah 59:2), but because of lack of understanding and knowledge concerning the true nature of God and reality.

    Some problems with this:

    There are no moral absolutes in the New Age. Therefore, they claim to have a spiritual tolerance for all "truth systems." They call this "harmonization."
    There is an obvious problem here. To say that there are no moral absolutes is an absolute in itself which is self contradictory. Also, if morality is relative, then stealing may be right sometimes, along with lying, adultery, cheating, etc. Living in a world of moral relativism would not bring a promising future.
    It would follow that if reality is relative and truth is too, then driving a car would be difficult. After all, if one New Ager thinks the light is red and another thinks its green, when they collide, their different realities will come crashing down on them. That is something most interesting about New Agers, they don't live what they believe. That is because in reality, New Age thinking doesn't work.
    The New Age movement does espouse honesty, integrity, love, peace, etc. It just wants to do it without the true God. It wants to do it not on His terms, but on its own.

    I only scratched the surface but I just sent this over because you said you believe in Eastern religions....in the past you, in my opinion, seem to be described as the common New Ager........this is one of the fastest growing religions in the world and it's main enemy is Christianity so I can now understand your sometimes hostile moments =)

    What do you think about this?

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Yes typically, you are correct. But typically is circumstantial, none the less. That is not enough proof that the person will or is actually lying. And again, keeping silent about something is different from opening your mouth and telling a falsehood, which is actually lying. Keeping silent is just that, staying quiet. And again, it did not tell us to tell a lie. It said, if you speak, you MUST TELL THE TRUTH!!!!!!!! IF YOU SPEAK!!!! You keep talking down to me as if I am the one lacking understanding of the difference here, when it is you who wants to speak in a circumstantial fashion.

    All I have been saying is pleading the 5th, while probably making the person seem guilty of hiding something, is technically not a lie. And seriously, you are alone if you think that a person choosing not to speak is lying. How? HE SAID NOTHING?

    Last time. Manual said if a witness speaks, he CANNOT tell a falsehood. So they are Imploring God's people to speak truth. It gave an example of an option to not speak, which then means you don't speak truth or lie, you remain silent. If anything, you could say that is cowardly, or looking out for whoever they may be. That is acceptable. You don't have to like it. But to say a person keeping silent is being untruthful is almost dogmatic. You just wanna be right here , when clearly you have no leg to stand on. YOU ARE WRONG! I know it hurts, but you are. You'll live.






    First, the elders are not in charge. Jehovah is. They are an extension of his Kingdom on earth. They guide, not set the rules. Get it straight.

    Secondly, by speaking the truth, WE ARE FOLLOWING GOD'S LAWS! Lying would break them. However, there is no law in the Bible against CHOOSING TO NOT SPEAK!!!!! And apparently, the same holds true in the United States.

    And being evasive to God's enemies has at times been what was appropriate, biblically even. But being evasive, is not the same as lying. You just want it to be, because of your philosophical dogma. But, it's a fail.






    In your mind, you have dismantled prophecy. The same way you foolishly continue to try to equate a person not speaking at all to the person speaking and lying. It's all so you can feel smarter than you actually are with your silly rhetoric, and illogical philosophies.

    I'm gonna try and put you on though. This is what you said "the Koran tells muslims to slay the infidels". The word "TELLS" signifies a command, correct? Good. On the flip side, Isaiah 2 speaks of future events that will take place, and gives very specific details of what will happen. That is different from a command. So in order for your analogy to stick, you'd have to compare a prophecy to a prophecy, not a command to a prophecy. Since the Koran is not a book of prophecy, it will be very tough for you to do this. This is what makes the Bible stand out. Prophetic word.

    And since I can look up and see exactly what Isaiah 2 said would happen, take place, why should I ignore it? Why didn't this happen centuries ago? Why didn't people of all nations decide to worship Jehovah a long time before the worst time period known to man? BECAUSE IF IT DID, THEN ISAIAH 2 WOULD NOT BE PROPHETIC!

    Also, prophecy is not always revealed in the same span. It usually takes time to unfold, bit by bit. Which would explain why it all has not happened yet. But if some of it has taken place, why doubt that the rest will? Unless of course, you'd rather be philosophically dogmatic in opposition.

    I see things for what they are, and not for what I wish them to be. Brainwashing? This from the man who has never seen an ape man, and is never going to, but says "That's my ancestors". Yikes


    Come on man. You're just making excuses now. Saying nothing for fear of incriminating yourself, your religion or one of your own is dishonest. Flat out dishonest. You can't deny it. If someone asks you a question and you know the answer but choose to say nothing because you can't lie is still dishonest.

    It seems more like using a loophole in the "can't lie" rule than truly being honest. You live a very strange life.

    When you knock on someone's door and they seem interested but ask you about being disfellowshipped, you will not tell the truth. You will either use illogical language like you use frequently to explain the ridiculousness of your beliefs, or you will stay silent. That is being dishonest.

    If a fellow JW is arrested and you are asked to testify against him, you will plead the 5th. That is dishonest and a clear example of how the JWs are a cult. No matter how you try and explain yourself, you are told to be dishonest in order to preserve your cult.

    Same with the prophecies. Deep in your mind, you know they are false. I have shown this to you. But you will go on telling people that "spreading fishnets" means turning Tyre into a fishing village when any objective person can easily see that the prophecy is about wiping Tyre off the map to never be found again, which is false. You will take things in the bible out of context for your own purpose. This is dishonest.

    You talk about the JWs being the greatest religion and only doing good. But they have destroyed many families because of disfellowship and even caused the death of several children because of your silly beliefs about blood transfusions. How can such a good religion cause so much harm? Another sign of cult.

    --------------------------------------------

    And yes, you are brainwashed and are in a cult. Your explanations for the above will only prove that more. It's obvious you cannot be convinced on an internet forum. It will take an intervention. Possibly your wife leaving first.

    I understand why it will be difficult to give up your false beliefs. You probably had a very difficult childhood/life. You probably were in a very bad place before the JWs came into your life. The JWs have probably given you everything good in your life (stability/children/wife/feeling loved). That would be very difficult for any person to give up. Especially with the fear of likely having that good in your life forced away from you because of a disagreement.

    I bet the minute you entered the door you were probably surrounded by people hugging you and expressing their love for you. This is what cults do. But it is a false love. They only want to bring people into their cult. Try giving up the JW religion and see how much they love you then. Just pretend that you are leaving so you can see what their reaction will be. You will be dropped quickly and shunned from your friends and family. How can such a good religion do these things?

    How many new members are from a good, happy, well educated life/upbringing? I wonder why? How many disfellowshipped members have you been friends with? Do you still maintain a friendship with them? I wonder why?

    You are exactly the type of person cults seek out and the type of person that joins. Either that or a person is raised in the cult from a child and doesn't know any better. Although, these people are typically the type that leave first.

    Maybe your wife is one of these types of members? If so, will you allow me to chat with her? I am not trying to break up your family. That will happen sooner or later. Maybe not between you and your wife but eventually your children will realize the religion is false. It may be when they are 50 years old and the end of the world still hasn't arrived. But eventually they will leave. And this will be devastating to them. The sooner the whole family leaves, the better.

    I am certain of this. 100% certain. The world will not end because of God. Have you ever considered how illogical it is to think of a god that apparently loves everyone, is all powerful and all knowing, and wants everyone to love him. Yet he will kill 99% of the population because they either wanted to love him but misunderstood his very cryptic and unclear book or because they happen to be born in the wrong place.

    Think about it. If only JWs are saved and there are roughly 7 mil of them and the total population of the earth is 7 billion, over 99% of the population will be killed by god. That's not even taking into account that you believe only 144,000 people will be saved. So make that number more like 99.9998%.

    And what about all the christians that truly wanted to love him but were not JWs? Simply because they interpreted a cryptic and and unclear book incorrectly? And you can't argue that the bible is clear and easy to understand. The fact that it takes you such intricate explanations, interpretations and translations to explain so many parts of your beliefs is proof. Even the missed prophecies of the end of the world (aren't you guys like 0-14 now?) is clear proof that the bible is not clear and easy to understand. Wouldn't an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-seeing being have known this?

    And what about the hundreds of millions of innocent children brought up in the part of the world where the JW religion (or even christianity all together) is not widely known. Seems rather petty, unfair and cruel for a loving and all-knowing, all-powerful being to kill all of them because they didn't love him properly.

    And just the concept of heaven or eternal paradise is obvious that it was a human invention to make us all feel better and not be so afraid of death. I mean come on. How obvious is that?

    Essentially reality really only leaves 3 possible explanations for God.
    1.) He is all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful but he doesn't care
    2.) He cares but is not all-powerful
    3.) He doesn't exist

    That's it. But, with the added pressure of being disfellowshipped and losing everything, the chance of you accepting this reality and leaving is very slim. It is sad that you would lose your wife, children and all your friends, simply because you disagree with them about an invisible being. Just another reason why the JWs are a cult, much like the Mormons.

    Good luck to you sir and remember these words when you are old. Hopefully then you will be able to warn those close to you so they don't waste their lives as you have done.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Mar 18, 2010 at 09:17.

  4. #34
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    AH! I see were your views come from now....Eastern Mysticism that has now branched into the New Age movement.
    I respect your honesty but you have to understand the growing movement you are a part of.
    I copied this from a guy that use to follow Eastern Mysticism all the way and then was born again but his understanding of the New Age movement is top notch:What is the New Age Movement?
    The New Age (NAM) movement has many sub-divisions, but it is generally a collection of Eastern-influenced metaphysical thought systems, a conglomeration of theologies, hopes, and expectations held together with an eclectic teaching of salvation, of "correct thinking," and "correct knowledge." It is a theology of "feel-goodism," "universal tolerance," and "moral relativism."
    In the NAM Man is central. He is viewed as divine, as co-creator, as the hope for future peace and harmony. A representative quote might be: "I am affected only by my thoughts. It needs but this to let salvation come to all the world. For in this single thought is everyone released at last from fear." (A course in Miracles, The Foundation for Inner Peace, Huntington Station, N.Y. Lesson 228, p. 461.)
    Unfortunately for the NAM, the fear from which they want to be released might very well be the fear of damnation, of conviction of sin, and it is even, sometimes, fear of Christianity and Christians. Though the NAM is tolerant of almost any theological position, it is opposed to the "narrow-mindedness" of Christianity that teaches Jesus is the only way and that there are moral absolutes.
    The NAM is difficult to define because "there is no hierarchy, dogma, doctrine, collection plate, or membership." It is a collection, an assortment of different theologies with the common threads of toleration and divergence weaving through its tapestry of "universal truth."
    The term "New Age" refers to the "Aquarian Age" which, according to New Age followers, is dawning. It is supposed to bring in peace and enlightenment and reunite man with God. Man is presently considered separated from God not because of sin (Isaiah 59:2), but because of lack of understanding and knowledge concerning the true nature of God and reality.

    Some problems with this:

    There are no moral absolutes in the New Age. Therefore, they claim to have a spiritual tolerance for all "truth systems." They call this "harmonization."
    There is an obvious problem here. To say that there are no moral absolutes is an absolute in itself which is self contradictory. Also, if morality is relative, then stealing may be right sometimes, along with lying, adultery, cheating, etc. Living in a world of moral relativism would not bring a promising future.
    It would follow that if reality is relative and truth is too, then driving a car would be difficult. After all, if one New Ager thinks the light is red and another thinks its green, when they collide, their different realities will come crashing down on them. That is something most interesting about New Agers, they don't live what they believe. That is because in reality, New Age thinking doesn't work.
    The New Age movement does espouse honesty, integrity, love, peace, etc. It just wants to do it without the true God. It wants to do it not on His terms, but on its own.

    I only scratched the surface but I just sent this over because you said you believe in Eastern religions....in the past you, in my opinion, seem to be described as the common New Ager........this is one of the fastest growing religions in the world and it's main enemy is Christianity so I can now understand your sometimes hostile moments =)

    What do you think about this?
    Well, I don't like to be labeled anything, so I won't call myself "new age." I actually associate new age with healing crystals, UFOs and other types of wierdnesss. I am into Eastern Philosophy, as can be found in the Tao, other sacred texts, books like "The Prophet," the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti, etc.

    I have a concept of God as being the collective consciousness of all living things, because it is tangible to me: all living things, collectively, create the world, in addition to providing the energy to shape the future.

    I have morals and values, but they are based on what has resulted from my own search, my own hunger for an understanding of compassion, love, etc.

    And none of this is about feeling good, for me. It is, instead, about finding "the truth." I do respect, and value, people's spiritual opinions, but not as truth, instead as wisdom.

    And I do care about truth, objectively. I do not believe in everyone having their own truth. I do, however, believe that everyone sees something true that one is not necessarily able to see on one's own. In such a case, it is important to listen, with a critical ear.

    I am not afraid of burning or going to heaven, because I do not believe either exists. I do not believe your God, which is the clan God of the Hebrews, is the supreme force of the universe. I believe the universe is the supreme force of the universe and that we are the universe.

    My beliefs are bigger than some rebellion against Christianity. I believe in what makes sense to me, what gives me freedom and allows me to create my own thoughts and beliefs. Christianity does not do that, it is stale, oppressive and stunts personal enquiry and growth.

    Here is a poem by Gibran, which will hopefully help you.


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



    On Religion, Kahlil Gibran
    Have I spoken this day of aught else?
    Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,
    And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?
    Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?
    Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself; This for my soul, and this other for my body?"
    All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.
    He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.
    The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.
    And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.
    The freest song comes not through bars and wires.
    And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.


    Your daily life is your temple and your religion.
    Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.
    Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute,
    The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.
    For in revery you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.
    And take with you all men:
    For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.


    And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.
    Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
    And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.
    You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees.



    J. Krishnamurti, on religion


    Krishnamurti: Sir, what is religion? Actually, what is religion? First of all to find out what is religion we must negate what it is not. What it is not; then it is. It's like seeing what is not love. Love is not hate, love is not jealousy, love is not ambition, love is not violence. When you negate all that, the other is, which is compassion. In the same way if you negate what is not religion then you find out what is true religion; that is, what is the truly religious mind. Belief is not religion, and the authority which the churches, the organized religions assume, is not religion. In that there is all the sense of obedience, conformity, acceptance, the hierarchical approach to life. The division between the Protestant, the Catholic, the Hindu, the Moslem, that's not religion. When you negate all that, which means you are no longer a Hindu, no longer a Catholic, no longer belonging to any sectarian outlook, then your mind questions, asks what is true religion? This is free from their ritual, without their masters, without their Saviour; all that is not religion.

    When the mind discards that, intelligently, because it has seen that it's not religion, then it can ask what is religion. Religion is not what I think, but religion is the sense of comprehension of the totality of existence, in which there is no division between you and me. Then if there is that quality of goodness which is virtue, real virtue not the phony virtue of society, but real virtue, then the mind can go beyond and find out, through meditation, through a deep, quiet silence, if there is such a thing as reality. Therefore a religious mind is a mind that is constantly aware, sensitive, attentive, so that it goes beyond itself into a dimension where there is no time at all.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Mar 18, 2010 at 10:58.

  5. #35
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Well, I don't like to be labeled anything, so I won't call myself "new age." I actually associate new age with healing crystals, UFOs and other types of wierdnesss. I am into Eastern Philosophy, as can be found in the Tao, other sacred texts, books like "The Prophet," the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti, etc.

    I have a concept of God as being the collective consciousness of all living things, because it is tangible to me: all living things, collectively, create the world, in addition to providing the energy to shape the future.

    I have morals and values, but they are based on what has resulted from my own search, my own hunger for an understanding of compassion, love, etc.

    And none of this is about feeling good, for me. It is, instead, about finding "the truth." I do respect, and value, people's spiritual opinions, but not as truth, instead as wisdom.

    And I do care about truth, objectively. I do not believe in everyone having their own truth. I do, however, believe that everyone sees something true that one is not necessarily able to see on one's own. In such a case, it is important to listen, with a critical ear.

    I am not afraid of burning or going to heaven, because I do not believe either exists. I do not believe your God, which is the clan God of the Hebrews, is the supreme force of the universe. I believe the universe is the supreme force of the universe and that we are the universe.

    My beliefs are bigger than some rebellion against Christianity. I believe in what makes sense to me, what gives me freedom and allows me to create my own thoughts and beliefs. Christianity does not do that, it is stale, oppressive and stunts personal enquiry and growth.

    Here is a poem by Gibran, which will hopefully help you.


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



    On Religion, Kahlil Gibran
    Have I spoken this day of aught else?
    Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,
    And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?
    Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?
    Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself; This for my soul, and this other for my body?"
    All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.
    He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.
    The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.
    And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.
    The freest song comes not through bars and wires.
    And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.


    Your daily life is your temple and your religion.
    Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.
    Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute,
    The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.
    For in revery you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.
    And take with you all men:
    For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.


    And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.
    Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
    And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.
    You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees.



    J. Krishnamurti, on religion

    Krishnamurti: Sir, what is religion? Actually, what is religion? First of all to find out what is religion we must negate what it is not. What it is not; then it is. It's like seeing what is not love. Love is not hate, love is not jealousy, love is not ambition, love is not violence. When you negate all that, the other is, which is compassion. In the same way if you negate what is not religion then you find out what is true religion; that is, what is the truly religious mind. Belief is not religion, and the authority which the churches, the organized religions assume, is not religion. In that there is all the sense of obedience, conformity, acceptance, the hierarchical approach to life. The division between the Protestant, the Catholic, the Hindu, the Moslem, that's not religion. When you negate all that, which means you are no longer a Hindu, no longer a Catholic, no longer belonging to any sectarian outlook, then your mind questions, asks what is true religion? This is free from their ritual, without their masters, without their Saviour; all that is not religion.

    When the mind discards that, intelligently, because it has seen that it's not religion, then it can ask what is religion. Religion is not what I think, but religion is the sense of comprehension of the totality of existence, in which there is no division between you and me. Then if there is that quality of goodness which is virtue, real virtue not the phony virtue of society, but real virtue, then the mind can go beyond and find out, through meditation, through a deep, quiet silence, if there is such a thing as reality. Therefore a religious mind is a mind that is constantly aware, sensitive, attentive, so that it goes beyond itself into a dimension where there is no time at all.
    unfortunetly everybody is labeled something...for example, even if you believe in nothing and that nothing has meaning, your a Nihilist lol But I see what you mean about not wanting to be labeled something, this is a common view that is growing among people these days.

    I focused on what you said about finding truth, this is interesting because in my church today the pastor was talking about this exact topic. How many people have adopted Eastern Philosophies and are "seekers" or people who constantly look for "the truth."

    Just want your opinion on something he said, "Many people adopt the life long journey of always seeking the "truth" because if they found the truth, then they would have to submit to it. Thus, they constantly seek the truth and will never find it because they never want to submit to anything that is not their own opinion or what they feel is the truth." I paraphrased some of it but I remember him saying that.

    I always point out when someone says that they don't care about Heaven or Hell....i always ask this question... "putting aside your opinion of why God has a heaven and hell, what if your wrong, don't you fear even a 1% possbility of this place being real and you suffering for eternity with no one to help you because you rejected God countless times?" In your case, its a hypothetical question, but a question of truth. If I am right about God and the afterlife, then you have countlessly rejected Him and basically have no excuse to not be in Hell to suffer. It's the #1 fear you can ever imagine...this obviously sounds like a question to just put fear in you to repent just like the Catholic Church abused during the Dark Ages...but it is a question worth asking because no one wants to be in Hell, I don't care how confident you sound saying that you can handle Hell or don't care about it....if this place is real...and your wrong...then you will make the biggest mistake of your life....just something to think about.

    In my opinion, you see my God as this hostile and contradictory God so instead of looking at it from another angle, you just do whatever you want to do, which is understandable because of your free will and the everyday distractions in this world that view Jesus and Christianity in a negative light.

    Honestly, I'm not just talking about you but many people I have discussed this topic with about God. People don't understand my God entirely. They take stuff out of context and say "look you see how bad your God is!" Without looking at why a loving God would even consider something besides forgiveness.
    Think of my God this way, the most mis-understood being that has his creation mis-understanding Him because He gave them free will- to do whatever you want to do and believe whatever you want. BUT he gives you free will not because he enjoys the punishment of those who miss-understand him to suffer in Hell, because He loves you so much that He doesn't want to force you to believe in Him. He wants you to seek Him, find Him, and understand Him because He is the Truth.

    You say you look for truth, compassion, and love. I say that when it comes to those topics, the Bible shows it more than any thing I have ever seen, and shows the experiences and themes of why we even have love, and compassion. You say your looking for truth and Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." We would not have the ability to love if there was not someone who created us that possessed those same abilities.
    God made man in His own image, gave everything to his creation, and gave free will so that He would know who would honestly and truthfully love Him and understand Him.

    This is where everything fell apart....God gave us everything as I explained and gifted us with free will....BUT the common experience happened with man on this Earth, man was tempted by evil desires, did what he felt was proper and just, rejecting God's word, biting the hand that fed him.....so then ask yourself...does a man who rejects God and everything He gave us, even deserve to be in Heaven? Think logically, intellectually, and simply...the answer is NO. But you see that is still man's opinion...
    I say that but God can still forgive someone like you or whoever who has spit on his name countless times, arguing against him like Saul of Tarsus did persecuting and killing Christians as a Pharisee, then realizing that he was persecuting God's people and doing what man felt neccessary....Saul was then transformed completely into Paul, probably the most famous of all of God's followers for writing ten books in the Bible and being accused countless times and evading death everytime until his last days as a Martyr.

    Every apostle was martyred because they knew that what they believed in was the Truth....you will say that they were brainwashed and that they are no different from radical Muslims dying for Allah Akbar. The apostles were not martyred because they felt that if they died for Christ that they would be in Heaven with all these rewards, they understood that there were rewards but were against all odds and had everyone against them, but they trusted in God, who they saw and lived with who was named Jesus. They were convinced and even Judas was decieved. He performed so many miracles that not even half of them were recorded as it says in the Bible. The Book of Isiah talked about Jesus in countless chapters in detail talking about Him in the name of Messiah and then describing His life...the book of Isiah was written in 700-500 B.C!

    So what I am saying is be open minded and think outside a box. You think you know everything about Christianity because if I remember correctly you were a Christian at one point and rejected it thinking it was a farse. Many have had your experience but what I am saying is that something led you away from the Truth and now you are arguing against it....it takes an experience like yours to understand the road you have gone down. We learn from trials and all of God's followers have trials that are almost impossible to imagine...the apostles had it the worst.

    Christianity has it's false teachers, I will never say that Christianity is 100% pure because there are too many teachers in the world that spread false information about the Bible. I learn everyday about the Bible, but I know I am on the right path and everything I see in the Bible I also see in the world around me. This book was written thousands of years ago and it relates to my life more than anything else I have ever experienced.

    The hardest thing to do in your life is to accept that you are wrong and submit to someone or something. Human nature does not want to submit to anything but itself. I realized that there are two paths...just like every story, just like every extreme has two sides....there are two sides to everything...Good and Evil stems from this. Everyone is fighting in that grey area and in the end you will know whether you are in the black or white....I don't want you to be in the black. If any Christian rejects you OG, then I will strike him myself for that is not what the Lord taught His people to do. You can slander me all you want and say all day how wrong I am and how wrong my God is, but I will love you and everyone else in this world because that is the man that Jesus was. With love comes compassion, and with compassion comes honesty, and with honestly comes truth. And with truth comes the answer you were always seeking.

    I found the truth and it wasn't easy or a lullaby story, it's never easy, but it is worth every second. I hope you find the truth, brother.

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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    unfortunetly everybody is labeled something...for example, even if you believe in nothing and that nothing has meaning, your a Nihilist lol But I see what you mean about not wanting to be labeled something, this is a common view that is growing among people these days.

    I focused on what you said about finding truth, this is interesting because in my church today the pastor was talking about this exact topic. How many people have adopted Eastern Philosophies and are "seekers" or people who constantly look for "the truth."

    Just want your opinion on something he said, "Many people adopt the life long journey of always seeking the "truth" because if they found the truth, then they would have to submit to it. Thus, they constantly seek the truth and will never find it because they never want to submit to anything that is not their own opinion or what they feel is the truth." I paraphrased some of it but I remember him saying that.

    I always point out when someone says that they don't care about Heaven or Hell....i always ask this question... "putting aside your opinion of why God has a heaven and hell, what if your wrong, don't you fear even a 1% possbility of this place being real and you suffering for eternity with no one to help you because you rejected God countless times?" In your case, its a hypothetical question, but a question of truth. If I am right about God and the afterlife, then you have countlessly rejected Him and basically have no excuse to not be in Hell to suffer. It's the #1 fear you can ever imagine...this obviously sounds like a question to just put fear in you to repent just like the Catholic Church abused during the Dark Ages...but it is a question worth asking because no one wants to be in Hell, I don't care how confident you sound saying that you can handle Hell or don't care about it....if this place is real...and your wrong...then you will make the biggest mistake of your life....just something to think about.

    In my opinion, you see my God as this hostile and contradictory God so instead of looking at it from another angle, you just do whatever you want to do, which is understandable because of your free will and the everyday distractions in this world that view Jesus and Christianity in a negative light.

    Honestly, I'm not just talking about you but many people I have discussed this topic with about God. People don't understand my God entirely. They take stuff out of context and say "look you see how bad your God is!" Without looking at why a loving God would even consider something besides forgiveness.
    Think of my God this way, the most mis-understood being that has his creation mis-understanding Him because He gave them free will- to do whatever you want to do and believe whatever you want. BUT he gives you free will not because he enjoys the punishment of those who miss-understand him to suffer in Hell, because He loves you so much that He doesn't want to force you to believe in Him. He wants you to seek Him, find Him, and understand Him because He is the Truth.

    You say you look for truth, compassion, and love. I say that when it comes to those topics, the Bible shows it more than any thing I have ever seen, and shows the experiences and themes of why we even have love, and compassion. You say your looking for truth and Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." We would not have the ability to love if there was not someone who created us that possessed those same abilities.
    God made man in His own image, gave everything to his creation, and gave free will so that He would know who would honestly and truthfully love Him and understand Him.

    This is where everything fell apart....God gave us everything as I explained and gifted us with free will....BUT the common experience happened with man on this Earth, man was tempted by evil desires, did what he felt was proper and just, rejecting God's word, biting the hand that fed him.....so then ask yourself...does a man who rejects God and everything He gave us, even deserve to be in Heaven? Think logically, intellectually, and simply...the answer is NO. But you see that is still man's opinion...
    I say that but God can still forgive someone like you or whoever who has spit on his name countless times, arguing against him like Saul of Tarsus did persecuting and killing Christians as a Pharisee, then realizing that he was persecuting God's people and doing what man felt neccessary....Saul was then transformed completely into Paul, probably the most famous of all of God's followers for writing ten books in the Bible and being accused countless times and evading death everytime until his last days as a Martyr.

    Every apostle was martyred because they knew that what they believed in was the Truth....you will say that they were brainwashed and that they are no different from radical Muslims dying for Allah Akbar. The apostles were not martyred because they felt that if they died for Christ that they would be in Heaven with all these rewards, they understood that there were rewards but were against all odds and had everyone against them, but they trusted in God, who they saw and lived with who was named Jesus. They were convinced and even Judas was decieved. He performed so many miracles that not even half of them were recorded as it says in the Bible. The Book of Isiah talked about Jesus in countless chapters in detail talking about Him in the name of Messiah and then describing His life...the book of Isiah was written in 700-500 B.C!

    So what I am saying is be open minded and think outside a box. You think you know everything about Christianity because if I remember correctly you were a Christian at one point and rejected it thinking it was a farse. Many have had your experience but what I am saying is that something led you away from the Truth and now you are arguing against it....it takes an experience like yours to understand the road you have gone down. We learn from trials and all of God's followers have trials that are almost impossible to imagine...the apostles had it the worst.

    Christianity has it's false teachers, I will never say that Christianity is 100% pure because there are too many teachers in the world that spread false information about the Bible. I learn everyday about the Bible, but I know I am on the right path and everything I see in the Bible I also see in the world around me. This book was written thousands of years ago and it relates to my life more than anything else I have ever experienced.

    The hardest thing to do in your life is to accept that you are wrong and submit to someone or something. Human nature does not want to submit to anything but itself. I realized that there are two paths...just like every story, just like every extreme has two sides....there are two sides to everything...Good and Evil stems from this. Everyone is fighting in that grey area and in the end you will know whether you are in the black or white....I don't want you to be in the black. If any Christian rejects you OG, then I will strike him myself for that is not what the Lord taught His people to do. You can slander me all you want and say all day how wrong I am and how wrong my God is, but I will love you and everyone else in this world because that is the man that Jesus was. With love comes compassion, and with compassion comes honesty, and with honestly comes truth. And with truth comes the answer you were always seeking.

    I found the truth and it wasn't easy or a lullaby story, it's never easy, but it is worth every second. I hope you find the truth, brother.
    Really? You found the truth, and it wasn't easy? Well, in this country, becoming a Christian is a cakewalk. Everywhere you turn, there's some Christian trying to recruit you to their religion. And it's an orgy session, each time you attend "service:" you spend your time stroking one another's egos, "we're going to be saved, we're true believers."

    And what makes your book any truer than any other? You believe in yours, so you will offer a compelling explanation as to why the evidence is all in the book. If I ask the same of a Muslim, Hindu, etc., they will say the same thing, even though they follow an entirely different religion and set of texts. So... why am I supposed to believe in your book and drop what fulfills me spiritually? Because you, like them, believe, in full splendor of your attachment to the future promise of reward, that you are right?

    And searching for truth is actually THE true way of submitting to truth, because truth does not live in your book or in the words of the mere mortal you call a pastor. It does not reside with the God of the Hebrews or that of the Babylonians: the people from whom their, and your, religion comes. Truth is transient, it has no beginning, no end, no one can monopolize it. Truth fits the definition, in fact, of your God: omnipresent, omniscient, etc.

    Truth is everywhere, in uncountable places. While the writers of your bible knew nothing of the world outside of the immediate area, Truth held there were more people, who lived and experienced richly. Submission to truth means one has submitted to constantly evaluating, honestly, without the distraction of devils and demons as the cause of our problems. It also pushes us to be responsible for what we do and does not simply give us a reward for being a member of a religion.

    You truly cannot see how cheap your religion is? You use threats of suffering and pain to try to intimidate the weak and the selfish into following your beliefs and making you feel better. Fortunately, I am not weak, I am not selfish. I know that which I write about, it's not a fad, it's not superficial.

    And any being that would punish a person for refusing to believe in a book that provides no evidence of its veracity, while forgiving and accepting the countless scum that claim to be Christian, and sport crucifixes around their necks, is evil.

    As I told KFL, truth goes everywhere and touches everything, whether you perceive it or not. Your problem is that your spirituality has, instead, limited your understanding of truth to rules and interpretations that don't inspire thought, contemplation or disinterested action.

    Any being that would want that from you would be utterly devoid of care, in regards to your spiritual, emotional and psychological growth. You might not feel this to be the case, because you are self indulging, your pastor, fellow parishioners, etc., make you feel good about the gilded cage you have locked yourself in.

    Meanwhile, you are likely conflicted. You don't understand why things are as they are. You act one way, in front of the church and another way at home. You are not satisfied that you understand all of the things in the world, in spite of having read so much church material.

    I'll let Lord Buddha (Mr. Truth), no threats, no fairy-tales, take over this debate:

    "Learn to distinguish between Self and Truth. Self is the cause of selfishness and the source of evil; truth cleaves to no self; it is universal and leads to justice and righteousness. Self: that which seems to those who love their self as their being, is not the eternal, the everlasting, the imperishable. Seek not self, but seek the truth.

    If we liberate our souls from our petty selves, wish no ill to others, and become clear as a crystal diamond, reflecting the light of truth, what a radiant picture will appear in us mirroring things as they are, without the admixture of burning desires, without the distortion of erroneous illusion, without the agitation of clinging and unrest.

    All compound things shall be dissolved again, worlds will break to pieces and our individualities will be scattered; but the words of Buddha will remain for ever."
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Mar 21, 2010 at 02:57.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Come on man. You're just making excuses now. Saying nothing for fear of incriminating yourself, your religion or one of your own is dishonest. Flat out dishonest. You can't deny it. If someone asks you a question and you know the answer but choose to say nothing because you can't lie is still dishonest.

    It seems more like using a loophole in the "can't lie" rule than truly being honest. You live a very strange life.
    This is nuts. It never told them to lie. You just have a vendetta against all faiths, and since you can't disprove Jehovah with all your vast knowledge you possess, you rant. Call it what you like.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    When you knock on someone's door and they seem interested but ask you about being disfellowshipped, you will not tell the truth. You will either use illogical language like you use frequently to explain the ridiculousness of your beliefs, or you will stay silent. That is being dishonest.
    I would expect nothing else from an ape, but you're human man, I'mma need you to get it together. Disfellowshipping is a bible based provision if needed, and again, the brothers do not decide to disfellowship a person, the person does. They do that when they exibit behavior contrary to Christian teachings and morals. If the bible warns against bad association spoiling useful habits, why then should a person remain among those with useful habits, when they no longer exibit them? Would that not be a dangerous thing for those trying to do as Jehovah asks? I mean, come on genius, wake up!

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    If a fellow JW is arrested and you are asked to testify against him, you will plead the 5th. That is dishonest and a clear example of how the JWs are a cult. No matter how you try and explain yourself, you are told to be dishonest in order to preserve your cult.
    So you know what I will do? How? You have the ability to foresee now?

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Same with the prophecies. Deep in your mind, you know they are false. I have shown this to you. But you will go on telling people that "spreading fishnets" means turning Tyre into a fishing village when any objective person can easily see that the prophecy is about wiping Tyre off the map to never be found again, which is false. You will take things in the bible out of context for your own purpose. This is dishonest.
    You have shown me what you think the prophecy is. But what I have learned makes more sense honestly. Your interpretations lack the full scope. If you took into account the full prophecy, it might open you up to new thinking. But new thinking requires humility. That may be a problem for a know it all.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You talk about the JWs being the greatest religion and only doing good. But they have destroyed many families because of disfellowship and even caused the death of several children because of your silly beliefs about blood transfusions. How can such a good religion cause so much harm? Another sign of cult.
    Again, you wanna blame Jehovah's standards of good, for the flaws of wrong doers. For the last time, a person disfellowships themselves by breaking God's laws without repentance. Therefore, if the person is so loving and caring of God, themselves and their fam, would they put those relationships in jeopardy by turning away from God and those who love him? NO!!!! The brothers will try everything in their power to help a person see the erring in their ways according to Jehovah. If they do not repent they are effectively telling Jehovah F_U. That's unacceptable. Their fault, not anyone elses. They can go and cry foul all they wish, but in their heart they'll always know the fault lies within.

    As far as blood goes, very clear counsel on that. Better to die upholding Jehovah's laws and principles than not. Yes, death hurts and it may seem like a stupid rule, but blood transfusions have helped spread diseases and such as well. Not fulproof. And today there are advances that make transfusion not even necessary. So get over it.

    --------------------------------------------

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    And yes, you are brainwashed and are in a cult. Your explanations for the above will only prove that more. It's obvious you cannot be convinced on an internet forum. It will take an intervention. Possibly your wife leaving first.
    My wife was church of Christ all of her life before she started learning the truth. She knows Jehovah Hates divorce. Fat chance she is leaving me bud.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I understand why it will be difficult to give up your false beliefs. You probably had a very difficult childhood/life. You probably were in a very bad place before the JWs came into your life. The JWs have probably given you everything good in your life (stability/children/wife/feeling loved). That would be very difficult for any person to give up. Especially with the fear of likely having that good in your life forced away from you because of a disagreement.
    Grew up in a Baptist household. We converted to the truth. Life is hard for everyone, if you have not been paying attention. But I'm logical. Jehovah has provided logical answers for why things are and how to fix it. and yes, they are better than the ones you give. In fact, you are hopeless. Because you have no answers of hope for mankind. Just impending doom. This is it, enjoy it and die. The earth will blow up in a few million years anyways. Etc. Enjoy that.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I bet the minute you entered the door you were probably surrounded by people hugging you and expressing their love for you. This is what cults do. But it is a false love. They only want to bring people into their cult. Try giving up the JW religion and see how much they love you then. Just pretend that you are leaving so you can see what their reaction will be. You will be dropped quickly and shunned from your friends and family. How can such a good religion do these things?
    You will only continue to get shunned if you show an unrepentant attitude, which most disfellowshipped persons exibit. If one turns back from shunning Jehovah, they will be accepted with open arms... Like the prodigal son. But it takes that first step.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    How many new members are from a good, happy, well educated life/upbringing? I wonder why? How many disfellowshipped members have you been friends with? Do you still maintain a friendship with them? I wonder why?
    Plenty of Jehovah's witnesses come from the so called "good life" Money, power, prestige. But find doing things Jehovah's way lend to a much more fulfilling life. Only a fool would imply that all new Jehovah's witnesses were lacking education and the good life. Are you a fool?

    You've run disfellowshipping into the ground. Common sense should tell you why it's necessary. You have that ability, I'm sure...

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You are exactly the type of person cults seek out and the type of person that joins. Either that or a person is raised in the cult from a child and doesn't know any better. Although, these people are typically the type that leave first.
    You are pretending to know me now. Comical.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Maybe your wife is one of these types of members? If so, will you allow me to chat with her? I am not trying to break up your family. That will happen sooner or later. Maybe not between you and your wife but eventually your children will realize the religion is false. It may be when they are 50 years old and the end of the world still hasn't arrived. But eventually they will leave. And this will be devastating to them. The sooner the whole family leaves, the better.
    Why can we never discuss these matters without you bringing up my family? I don't get it. I have asked very nicely on more than one occasion that we keep it relatively civil and family free. I address, you and vice versa. You're really getting ridiculously personal now.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I am certain of this. 100% certain. The world will not end because of God. Have you ever considered how illogical it is to think of a god that apparently loves everyone, is all powerful and all knowing, and wants everyone to love him. Yet he will kill 99% of the population because they either wanted to love him but misunderstood his very cryptic and unclear book or because they happen to be born in the wrong place.
    Excuses, excuses. Jehovah cannot bring the end of this wicked system without giving everyone ample chance to know the truth and be saved. People are doing just what you are doing. Saying "there is no Jehovah", in one form or the other. But when it hits the fan, no one will be able to say "I never got my Watchtower" Or never heard of Jehovah's witnesses. No, he will not provide that excuse. Jehovah's witnesses are completing the most thorough preaching in human history. There is very little ground left uncovered in the world by them. No one will be able to say I was not given a chance. Excuses...

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Think about it. If only JWs are saved and there are roughly 7 mil of them and the total population of the earth is 7 billion, over 99% of the population will be killed by god. That's not even taking into account that you believe only 144,000 people will be saved. So make that number more like 99.9998%.
    Actually, the 144k are almost all secure. Less than 10 k remain alive on earth today. The process of them being chosen started in pentecost 33. That is when the way to heaven was open. The rest of the witnesses have the earthly hope. And what's the problem with 7 million being saved? You do know Jehovah plans to resurrect billions of people, correct? Or did you not take time to learn that?


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    And what about all the christians that truly wanted to love him but were not JWs? Simply because they interpreted a cryptic and and unclear book incorrectly? And you can't argue that the bible is clear and easy to understand. The fact that it takes you such intricate explanations, interpretations and translations to explain so many parts of your beliefs is proof. Even the missed prophecies of the end of the world (aren't you guys like 0-14 now?) is clear proof that the bible is not clear and easy to understand. Wouldn't an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-seeing being have known this?
    If a person truly wants to love God, they will love him his way, not theirs. Therefore, a person seeking the truth of God, will receive the truth, because Jehovah would NEVER deny a person truly seeking him access. Which is why Most of Jehovah's witnesses come from other faiths, because they were truly seeking him, and he in turn let them find him. EVERYONE will have a chance to learn the truth. Even Christians of other sects. It's on them to accept it.

    And we're not prophets in that sense. So no we're not 0-14.


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    And what about the hundreds of millions of innocent children brought up in the part of the world where the JW religion (or even christianity all together) is not widely known. Seems rather petty, unfair and cruel for a loving and all-knowing, all-powerful being to kill all of them because they didn't love him properly.
    There will be no such excuse provided. Jesus said the Good news of the Kingdom will be preached in the ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH... AND THEN THE END WILL COME. That is why Jehovah's people are everywhere..... Because everyone must have a chance. There will be no such excuse.


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    And just the concept of heaven or eternal paradise is obvious that it was a human invention to make us all feel better and not be so afraid of death. I mean come on. How obvious is that?

    Essentially reality really only leaves 3 possible explanations for God.
    1.) He is all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful but he doesn't care
    2.) He cares but is not all-powerful
    3.) He doesn't exist
    Adam already had that prospect of life everlasting. He chose to go away from it. If he never sins we're all good. So it's not far fetched to believe.

    1.) He is all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful and caring, but is allowing suffering to continue for a time to show who has the right to rule, him or mankind. Fixed.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    That's it. But, with the added pressure of being disfellowshipped and losing everything, the chance of you accepting this reality and leaving is very slim. It is sad that you would lose your wife, children and all your friends, simply because you disagree with them about an invisible being. Just another reason why the JWs are a cult, much like the Mormons.

    Good luck to you sir and remember these words when you are old. Hopefully then you will be able to warn those close to you so they don't waste their lives as you have done.
    Trying to figure out why you want me to lose my family and friends so much, monkey man?

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    The answers you gave were expected. I don't want you to lose your family. That will eventually happen if you stay with the JW's. I am warning you to prevent it. But an internet forum can not help brainwashed cult followers. Something else will have to happen.

    Perhaps the end of the world not occurring? How many years will it take before you realize your religion is wrong? 25 years? 50 years? Give me an approximate number that you would feel comfortable with.

    If 25 years go by and the world still has not ended will you agree that you were wrong?
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Apr 11, 2010 at 16:56.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    The answers you gave were expected. I don't want you to lose your family. That will eventually happen if you stay with the JW's. I am warning you to prevent it. But an internet forum can not help brainwashed cult followers. Something else will have to happen.
    I'm brainwashed because the information I received from the Bible training I have incurred, has convinced me that Jehovah is God, and what I have learned is the truth. Yet, you're not brainwashed, but enlightened and considered a free thinker, because of the info you have received in science, apes and mankind? Great.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Perhaps the end of the world not occurring? How many years will it take before you realize your religion is wrong? 25 years? 50 years? Give me an approximate number that you would feel comfortable with.

    If 25 years go by and the world still has not ended will you agree that you were wrong?
    I have told you before that I doubt this system has ten years left in it, and you keep talking 25 and 50. But the truth is no man knows the exact time the end will come. But based on the signs, won't be much longer. I highly doubt we have ten years left in this system. The world is the worst it's ever been with no relief in sight. Even if I did not believe in Jehovah's word, I could look up and see a future full of hopelessness. The smarter man gets, the more dangerous they become, and the more disillusioned. The world outside of Jehovah is not good. There is no better alternative. And, the world is growing more and more fed up with religion by the second. Honestly, can you not see the end of religion as we know it on the horizon? I'm sure you can see it, and cannot wait for it to be a reality. But know that the day religion dies, is the day that Jehovah said time is up.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    I'm brainwashed because the information I received from the Bible training I have incurred, has convinced me that Jehovah is God, and what I have learned is the truth. Yet, you're not brainwashed, but enlightened and considered a free thinker, because of the info you have received in science, apes and mankind? Great.
    Yep. Pretty much.

    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    I have told you before that I doubt this system has ten years left in it, and you keep talking 25 and 50. But the truth is no man knows the exact time the end will come. But based on the signs, won't be much longer. I highly doubt we have ten years left in this system. The world is the worst it's ever been with no relief in sight. Even if I did not believe in Jehovah's word, I could look up and see a future full of hopelessness. The smarter man gets, the more dangerous they become, and the more disillusioned. The world outside of Jehovah is not good. There is no better alternative. And, the world is growing more and more fed up with religion by the second. Honestly, can you not see the end of religion as we know it on the horizon? I'm sure you can see it, and cannot wait for it to be a reality. But know that the day religion dies, is the day that Jehovah said time is up.
    10 years it is then. I will remind you every year, for the next 10 years that God still hasn't come down and ended the world. But since you are incappable of accepting the truth, you will then say "well, definitely in the next 10 years". This is how cults like yours survive. The JW's have been doing this same thing for over 100 years now. Every 10 years or so, they say "we promise, in the next 10 years...".

    And yes, I think religion is one of the worst things man has ever invented. But unfortunately because of uneducated people despereate to believe and willing to ignore facts and evidence, and forcing their superstitions on their children and threatening them with punishment from an invisible being if they don't believe, religion will always exist.

    But less and less people will believe the more we educate them, the more we learn about the universe, the natural world and genetics and the longer we go with God still not coming down to destroy us all. Like you, hopefully in 10 years, when God still hasn't come down to end the world.

    Because eventually you will have to realize that your religion is wrong. If you expect God to come down within the next 10 years, how will you still believe in 20 years?

    I am 100% certain of this. Without a shadow of a doubt. It is only a shame that it will take you so many years of your life completely wasted for you to realize. And that is why I am warning you now. Someday you will look back on these debates and remember.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Apr 13, 2010 at 10:30.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Yep. Pretty much.
    I don't get your justification though. I can say the same about you. So I'm lost. But whatever.



    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    10 years it is then. I will remind you every year, for the next 10 years that God still hasn't come down and ended the world. But since you are incappable of accepting the truth, you will then say "well, definitely in the next 10 years". This is how cults like yours survive. The JW's have been doing this same thing for over 100 years now. Every 10 years or so, they say "we promise, in the next 10 years...".
    Actually, Jehovah's people have not set a date on anything in almost 40 years. But lemme hip you. Jesus said to be on the watch, for you do not know the day or hour the son of man will appear. So that is what we do. We watch the world scene, and also watch the growth within the organization and how much it has sped up in recent years. The annointed (144k) are dwindling down every year. The Bible promises that a fraction of these people will live to see the end of this system before taking their place in heaven. We are under ten K who partake of the emblems at the memorial of Jesus death every year. I would think that under 10 k out of 144 k is some what of a fraction of the whole. So with the world in deep dookie, and the organization speeding up and the anointed slowly passing (These guys are old man) It's only a short matter of time before it has to pass.

    It is deeper than you can imagine from where you sit. It's goin down.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    And yes, I think religion is one of the worst things man has ever invented. But unfortunately because of uneducated people despereate to believe and willing to ignore facts and evidence, and forcing their superstitions on their children and threatening them with punishment from an invisible being if they don't believe, religion will always exist.
    Pay attention. The governments are having less and less tolerance worldwide with religious factions. The Pope of all people now is losing his grip of power. The faiths are changing as time goes to suit the world today, just to add members. Almost all conflicts in past and present have had to do with some sort of religious basing. Basically, false religion is falling apart. Couple that with advances in science, it's dogmatic teachings and findings that people put faith in, it's simply a matter of time. Jehovah tells us exactly how it will go down you know. The U.N. will finally get the power it seeks, and will be responsible for ending false religion. Because right now, the main powers involved with it, refuse to give their combined power to the U.N. for the toughest sanctions. But soon, that will change. In fact... Look around... slowly it's happening. The main cog, the U.S. has slowly come back to the pack and now has to bargain with other countries, instead of bullying. One day really soon, it will be over as far as the governments are concerned for religion. But that won't hold true for believers. People will still believe, but it won't change anything. Then the people will go nuts, and the powers will have wished they had not killed religion, simply to keep the masses in check. Yes, goin down. And you think you will be happy about it, until you really see how crazy religious people can be when their hope is killed. Won't be a happy time for anyone.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    But less and less people will believe the more we educate them, the more we learn about the universe, the natural world and genetics and the longer we go with God still not coming down to destroy us all. Like you, hopefully in 10 years, when God still hasn't come down to end the world.
    If you find one half ape half man remain, I'll be one of the more vocal leaders for science and evolution. Since I'm positive you never will, because evolution never happened, well, you know the rest...

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I am 100% certain of this. Without a shadow of a doubt. It is only a shame that it will take you so many years of your life completely wasted for you to realize. And that is why I am warning you now. Someday you will look back on these debates and remember.
    I wonder when things do not go your way, will you pray to Jehovah then?

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    You know the reasons why you are wrong. I have no desire to keep going over and over with you. The only thing remaining is to wait and see.

    In 10 years God will not have come down and destroyed the world. I guarantee this with 100% certainty.

    When this happens your only choice will be to admit you are wrong, and I will be there to remind you.

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    The problem with this whole exercise is that K4L is not interested in the truth, and neither is anyone else who has posted in this thread. This is where all the anger comes from. Everyone feels offended by anyone that is not in agreement with their ideas, which comes from who they are and what they want.

    This is because everyone is trying to promote selfish idea, rather than understanding that which is not subject to idea or self.

    K4L, and the rest, live in illusion, and this is not some sort of joke or player thread. These are their sincere opinions.

    You cannot see what has a mind of its own K4L, through the minds of so-called prophets and the books they have written. They might help you to someday see for yourself, but this is not in the nature of what you study, what they teach and how you study it.

    Comfort is not truth, comfort is the fulfillment of the desires to be, become or effect existence, that have long lived within you and will continue to live within you, unless you see its true nature and root, and the futility of trying to satiate IT. IT exists to perpetuate ITSELF, through your need to posts these threads and proselytize.

    I hope, someday, you all awaken and realize that your explanations, addenda, and rationalizations are not reality, they keep you from reality, which relies upon no self, or mind. It has a mind of its own.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Apr 23, 2010 at 22:36.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    The problem with this whole exercise is that K4L is not interested in the truth, and neither is anyone else who has posted in this thread. This is where all the anger comes from. Everyone feels offended by anyone that is not in agreement with their ideas, which comes from who they are and what they want.
    Do you include yourself in this? Because you surely believe you have the truth. You make yourself seem like some sentient being of truth and light. The only thing left it seems is for you to evaporate into thin air and join Yoda on the other side somewhere.



    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    K4L, and the rest, live in illusion
    This is a complete and utter joke. You are the one living in illusion. Everything the Bible says will happen, either has, or is on the horizon. I have shown scriptures that apply only to specific people and times and you, blinded by the propaganda machine just ignore the facts. Truth is fact. Truth is not some warped philosophical viewpoint. You have no answers. You just keep seeking to satisfy your philosophical agenda's, that make you feel as if you've got it all figured out. I'm glad you're in a happy place though.



    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Comfort is not truth, comfort is the fulfillment of the desires to be, become or effect existence, that have long lived within you and will continue to live within you, unless you see its true nature and root, and the futility of trying to satiate IT. IT exists to perpetuate ITSELF, through your need to posts these threads and proselytize.

    I hope, someday, you all awaken and realize that your explanations, addenda, and rationalizations are not reality, they keep you from reality, which relies upon no self, or mind. It has a mind of its own.
    My old self has the mind to ask wtf are you talking about? Reality has a mind of it's own? You really do think you're the ultimate intellect. This is nuts.

    The reality of the world's situation is this: The world is worst than it's ever been, and it's almost over. Jehovah has provided ample time for man to rule himself, and it has proven to be an epic fail. False religion is about to be wiped out for good. All one needs to do is read cnn and see what the governments are starting to do about religion. In the meanwhile, Jehovah still has a people for his name out there trying to help "HONEST HEARTED ONES" to learn the REAL truth, not some philosophical mumbo jumbo, exhorted by imperfect, very flawed human beings, which is a never ending search to nothingness.

    All the signs are in everyone's faces. You're choice to heed or ignore them.

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    What you call yourself cannot understand what I say, thus you say WTF. I am not interested, as I said in my post, in competing. This diverts attention from a sincere search for truth and makes the whole issue about me and you and what we think.

    And yes, I do include myself in my comment, if that was not obvious. I should not have engaged in any sort of debate, to try to prove anything that I believed. Truth is there, it is people who cannot see it, because, even if they subtly do so, without realizing it, they put their personal ideas ahead of it.

    And everything you say is the product of self. It is from the bible, but now it is coming from self. This is the only thing to know, and then be liberated from: self. This is why you are upset at my words, because JWs is what you are, who you are. When I challenge JW, in some way, it is not JW to you, it is you.

    And you are not replying with truth, you are replying with ideas. You are challenged and you come up with elaborate illusion after elaborate illusion. When you see that these are only defense mechanisms and illusions, and that definitions and words are not truth, you will be free.

    It is your right to be a JW or a Christian, but I recommend you think about why YOU (self) care about all these ideas, the stagnation that results from your belief, the anger (evident here), and the constant chase which, as a result, you are subjected to.

    Don't wait for peace, for liberation. It is something that is here for you now.

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