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Thread: Mike D'antoni = Back to Back seasons with 50+ losses

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    Originally Posted by AnnoyedNYsportsFan
    In my book, Back to Back 50+ loss seasons = getting fired....
    Agreed

    I don't want to hear how the Knicks have a lack of talent, because the Knicks had opportunities to get talent, and they had talent on their roster before they butchered up the team for the same 2010 capspace they could have had in 2011, without having to give up the two first round picks and former lottery pick they gave Houston.

    Did the Knicks have a chance to draft Brook Lopez? Yes
    Did D'Antoni want Gallinari ahead of Lopez, even though the Knicks already had Wilson Chandler and did not have a shot blocker at center? Yes
    Did the Knicks have a chance to develop Jordan Hill, by starting him at center with Lee at power forward? Yes
    Did D'Antoni pass up on Andre Miller for Chris Duhon? Yes
    "Over the summer, D'Antoni wasn't thrilled by the idea of the Knicks pursuing free agent Andre Miller and he had no interest in signing Jayson Williams and Jamaal Tinsley, two point guards that worked out for the club. Also, D'Antoni favored Jordan Hill over Brandon Jennings in the draft."
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Did D'Antoni pass up on Stephon Marbury for Chris Duhon? Yes
    Did D'Antoni do anything to make the team better? No
    Isiah Thomas' record, as coach of the Knicks: 56-108(.341)
    Mike D'Antoni's record, as coach of the Knicks: 52-88(.371)

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Agreed

    I don't want to hear how the Knicks have a lack of talent, because the Knicks had opportunities to get talent, and they had talent on their roster.

    Did the Knicks have a chance to draft Brook Lopez? Yes
    Did D'Antoni want Gallinari ahead of Lopez, even though the Knicks already had Wilson Chandler and did not have a shot blocker at center? Yes
    Did the Knicks have a chance to develop Jordan Hill, by starting him at center with Lee at power forward? Yes
    Did D'Antoni pass up on Andre Miller for Chris Duhon? Yes
    "Over the summer, D'Antoni wasn't thrilled by the idea of the Knicks pursuing free agent Andre Miller and he had no interest in signing Jayson Williams and Jamaal Tinsley, two point guards that worked out for the club. Also, D'Antoni favored Jordan Hill over Brandon Jennings in the draft."
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Did D'Antoni pass up on Stephon Marbury for Chris Duhon? Yes
    Did D'Antoni do anything to make the team better? No
    Isiah Thomas' record, as coach of the Knicks: 56-108(.341)
    Mike D'Antoni's record, as coach of the Knicks: 52-88(.371)
    Dant came in here knowing this was a 3 year rebuild. How can you fire him when Walsh traded away all our talent to clear room? It makes no sense to blame Dant for our record when we have a medicore squad of mismatched players.

    No center, no PG and no star = 50+ losses no matter who the coach is.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Dant came in here knowing this was a 3 year rebuild. How can you fire him when Walsh traded away all our talent to clear room? It makes no sense to blame Dant for our record when we have a medicore squad of mismatched players.

    No center, no PG and no star = 50+ losses no matter who the coach is.
    You obviously didn't read my post, because I addressed the reason why the Knicks don't have a center or a point guard. The reasons are listed on my previous post.

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    All coaches make mistakes as they are human like the rest of us. Dant is under a microscope so those mistakes are magnified by impatient fans and know-it-all reporters. NYC is very demanding. I will say that Dant clearly has made mistakes with play calls, rotation and personal relationships but if he was perfect we would still be a sub .500 team and not make the playoffs. The time to fire Dant is when he has the players and talent yet underachieves. I would argue Dant had us overachieving until DuDu reverted back to being the worst PG in the league and Gallo disappeared.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    You obviously didn't read my post, because I addressed the reason why the Knicks don't have a center or a point guard. The reasons are listed on my previous post.
    I must have missed it. If you know that then why call for him being fired? Is he perfect? Nah but even if he was we would still suck. I say give dude a chance with some real talent. If we are underachieving this time next year then he needs to go. I will hold my final judgment till then.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Agreed

    I don't want to hear how the Knicks have a lack of talent, because the Knicks had opportunities to get talent, and they had talent on their roster before they butchered up the team for the same 2010 capspace they could have had in 2011, without having to give up the two first round picks and former lottery pick they gave Houston.

    Did the Knicks have a chance to draft Brook Lopez? Yes
    Did D'Antoni want Gallinari ahead of Lopez, even though the Knicks already had Wilson Chandler and did not have a shot blocker at center? Yes
    Did the Knicks have a chance to develop Jordan Hill, by starting him at center with Lee at power forward? Yes
    Did D'Antoni pass up on Andre Miller for Chris Duhon? Yes
    "Over the summer, D'Antoni wasn't thrilled by the idea of the Knicks pursuing free agent Andre Miller and he had no interest in signing Jayson Williams and Jamaal Tinsley, two point guards that worked out for the club. Also, D'Antoni favored Jordan Hill over Brandon Jennings in the draft."
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Did D'Antoni pass up on Stephon Marbury for Chris Duhon? Yes
    Did D'Antoni do anything to make the team better? No
    Isiah Thomas' record, as coach of the Knicks: 56-108(.341)
    Mike D'Antoni's record, as coach of the Knicks: 52-88(.371)
    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I must have missed it. If you know that then why call for him being fired? Is he perfect? Nah but even if he was we would still suck. I say give dude a chance with some real talent. If we are underachieving this time next year then he needs to go. I will hold my final judgment till then.
    You misread my post. I want Mike D'Antoni fired, because it is partially his fault why the team doesn't have a point guard or a center.

    D'Antoni made SEVERAL mistakes, so he doesn't deserve a pass. I can name 50 mistakes he made off the top of my head.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    You misread my post. I want Mike D'Antoni fired, because it is partially his fault why the team doesn't have a point guard or a center.

    D'Antoni made SEVERAL mistakes, so he doesn't deserve a pass. I can name 50 mistakes he made off the top of my head.
    Advocating on behalf of who you want to draft is not a mistake. Dant is entitled to give his opinion. If anyone is to be blamed for that it has to be Walsh. Further no one knew Lopez was going to be as good as he is. Did you advocate at the time for Lopez? (not saying you didn't just curious because hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to look back and say "shoulda, coulda, woulda)

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    I actually had Roy Hibbert high on my Knick draft list. When Gallo was selected, I was pissed because we already had about 4 SF at the time. I was thinking they would either go after a pg or center.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Advocating on behalf of who you want to draft is not a mistake. Dant is entitled to give his opinion. If anyone is to be blamed for that it has to be Walsh. Further no one knew Lopez was going to be as good as he is. Did you advocate at the time for Lopez? (not saying you didn't just curious because hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to look back and say "shoulda, coulda, woulda)
    Yes, I advocated for Lopez from the start, and people did know that Lopez was going to be very good. He ranked #1 in centers, in the 2008 draft, and many mock drafts had him projected at #5.
    Brook Lopez's Stanford stats
    <TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=stathead><TD colSpan=11>Season Totals</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    <TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD>19.3ppg</TD><TD>8.2rebounds</TD><TD>1.4</TD><TD>2.1 blocks</TD><TD>.64</TD><TD>.6</TD><TD>2.1</TD><TD>2.4</TD><TD>.468</TD><TD>.789</TD><TD>.000</TD><TD>1.33</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=stathead><TD colSpan=11>Season Totals</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    D'Antoni should be blamed for wanting Gallinari ahead of Lopez, because the Knicks needed a center. Anyone with half a brain knew that the Knicks lacked defense and a low post presence. Walsh gets 50% of the blame, and D'Antoni gets 50% of the blame, too. Walsh never even saw Gallinari play in person, so it was obvious that D'Antoni had an influence in his decision.

    D'Antoni also wanted Chris Duhon over Andre Miller.
    Here's the link:
    "Over the summer, D'Antoni wasn't thrilled by the idea of the Knicks pursuing free agent Andre Miller and he had no interest in signing Jayson Williams and Jamaal Tinsley, two point guards that worked out for the club. Also, D'Antoni favored Jordan Hill over Brandon Jennings in the draft."
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    D'Antoni never gave Jordan Hill a chance to start. I'm not saying Hill was going to be good, but he never gave him a chance, and his numbers in college and the 2009 summer league were solid.

    D'Antoni refused to bench Chris Duhon, even after he played poorly for the first 4 months of the season. Stephon Marbury, Nate Robinson, and Toney Douglas were all better options.

  10. #55
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Advocating on behalf of who you want to draft is not a mistake. Dant is entitled to give his opinion. If anyone is to be blamed for that it has to be Walsh. Further no one knew Lopez was going to be as good as he is. Did you advocate at the time for Lopez? (not saying you didn't just curious because hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to look back and say "shoulda, coulda, woulda)
    IF your reaction to D'ant is to say "wait til' he is surrounded by talent"- then you must of advocated for our past 4 coaches... did you? Thought not.

    That's called the double standard.

    Next, when EVERYONE knows (based on STATS) our needs were Big man/ PG and the FO passes b/c of what D'Ant wanted- and it doesn't work out (see Gallo, Hill) its not hind sight. Its called we told you so!

    Finally, PLEASE explain to me how THIS brand of ball WINS. If you know anything about any sport, specifically ball- please tell me when has this brand of ball Won? Not ALMOST won- actually Won.

    I can't stand even watching this, even when we win... because I know this brand of basketball DOES NOT WORK!

    Some can't admit when they're wrong. For instance, WE were wrong about D'Ant. Cut our loses and move on- simple.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Yes, I advocated for Lopez from the start, and people did know that Lopez was going to be very good. He ranked #1 in centers, in the 2008 draft, and many mock drafts had him projected at #5.
    Brook Lopez's Stanford stats
    <table class="tablehead" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="stathead"><td colspan="11">Season Totals</td></tr></tbody></table>
    <table class="tablehead" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="evenrow" align="right"><td>19.3ppg</td><td>8.2rebounds</td><td>1.4</td><td>2.1 blocks</td><td>.64</td><td>.6</td><td>2.1</td><td>2.4</td><td>.468</td><td>.789</td><td>.000</td><td>1.33</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="tablehead" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="stathead"><td colspan="11">Season Totals</td></tr></tbody></table>
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    D'Antoni should be blamed for wanting Gallinari ahead of Lopez, because the Knicks needed a center. Anyone with half a brain knew that the Knicks lacked defense and a low post presence. Walsh gets 50% of the blame, and D'Antoni gets 50% of the blame, too. Walsh never even saw Gallinari play in person, so it was obvious that D'Antoni had an influence in his decision.

    D'Antoni also wanted Chris Duhon over Andre Miller.
    Here's the link:
    "Over the summer, D'Antoni wasn't thrilled by the idea of the Knicks pursuing free agent Andre Miller and he had no interest in signing Jayson Williams and Jamaal Tinsley, two point guards that worked out for the club. Also, D'Antoni favored Jordan Hill over Brandon Jennings in the draft."
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    D'Antoni never gave Jordan Hill a chance to start. I'm not saying Hill was going to be good, but he never gave him a chance, and his numbers in college and the 2009 summer league were solid.

    D'Antoni refused to bench Chris Duhon, even after he played poorly for the first 4 months of the season. Stephon Marbury, Nate Robinson, and Toney Douglas were all better options.
    Well, I am not going to defend our draft history because it is marred with one mistake after another. Point taken on Lopez..I don't really follow college so I had not been aware of his numbers. That said a few things to keep in mind:

    Gallo is far from hitting his ceiling and has the potential to be a really good.

    Dant does not need to give Hill playing time to evaluate his skill. They practice and run scrimmages all season long. (we will see what he does now)

    Dant and the Knicks went all in on Duhon because he was sadly our best PG.

    Nate simply is not a PG, he is an undersized SG. I'll say it again, if N8 was 6'5" no one would expect him to play anything but SG. His height and our lack of talent are the only reasons people want him at PG.

    I'm not going to get into the Marbury debate...just know there are two sides to that story and lets leave it at that.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    IF your reaction to D'ant is to say "wait til' he is surrounded by talent"- then you must of advocated for our past 4 coaches... did you? Thought not.

    That's called the double standard.

    Next, when EVERYONE knows (based on STATS) our needs were Big man/ PG and the FO passes b/c of what D'Ant wanted- and it doesn't work out (see Gallo, Hill) its not hind sight. Its called we told you so!

    Finally, PLEASE explain to me how THIS brand of ball WINS. If you know anything about any sport, specifically ball- please tell me when has this brand of ball Won? Not ALMOST won- actually Won.

    I can't stand even watching this, even when we win... because I know this brand of basketball DOES NOT WORK!

    Some can't admit when they're wrong. For instance, WE were wrong about D'Ant. Cut our loses and move on- simple.
    That's a straw man...I am not going to defend or debate previous coaches. It's apples to oranges, each coach had their failings and their strengths. Further they all had much more talent than what Dant was left with. I could go into Larry "the different lineup every game" Brown or Isaiah "the bubbling idiot" Thomas but what would be the point?

    We are not supposed to be winning, we are right where our talent dictates. Dant came in knowing it was rebuilding process and knew his win/loss % would take a hit.

    We brought Dant in to precisely coach talent...not manage a team of emotional, talentless mediocre players. Again, do you think Phil Jackson would have us contending now? Of course not so all this is moot. People are disgruntled and inpatient because we have sucked for so long..well BEFORE MIKE DANTONI was our coach.

    I equate this to Obama coming in to clean up Bush's mess. No one who is fair minded thinks Obama could turn things around in a year. The same goes for Dant, he came in after years of sad play and mismanagement and can only be measured once he has players that are supposed to win.

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    Yeah... that's what I thought.

    Now it's time to compare D'Ant to Obama (and the situation)- politics?... please.

    I hope you (Trill) read what you post. Realize you are making excuses, and are void of rational thought at times.

    I used to play and I am a coach, I know how to win. What you don't seem to understand is what winning is. Winning doesn't necessarily have to do with "the score".

    More often than not, it's HOW you win/lose that matters. Sure our talent level isn't the best (nor worst) but....

    when WE LOSE DUE TO OUR FLAWED SYSTEM... it's D'Ants fault.

    when WE LOSE GAMES WE ACTUALLY HAD A CHANCE TO WIN.... it's D'Ants fault.

    When WE LOSE due to COACHES desicions such as:
    not fouling late in games
    poor rotations
    not realizing who the hot hands are or who's best at a position (evaluation)
    not building/maintain. chemistry
    not drawing up game winning plays- to get the ball into the right players hands (Lee is an all-star, Gallo is a lottery pick aka the best)
    can't develop players
    showing favoritism
    not having a solid defensive plan
    on and on... then your not losing b/c of player talent. We're losing b/c of a lack of COACHING talent.

    I don't wnat to hear about "TALENT" when MY team blows double digit leads- DUE TO OUR FLAWED SYSTEM!

    Nor do you make sense when considering ALL the games We lost down the stretch- due to this system.

    By your standards (argument) we shouldn't even play, unless we can field a team that was already proven to win- that's illogical & irrational. Stop it!

    Lastly, Joe Torre was thought of as a mid-level coach- until he inherited the highest payroll. It was believed he was perfect for the NY Yanks....

    Until another coach (Gerardi) achieved success. Look at Torre now. Same results. The same happened in PHX, now look, they are achieving w/ the same talent, diff. coach- go figure.

    If a coach can only be good if his talent is good, then there should be only be a handful of...

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    good coaches, and we know that's not true.

    So, when you can develop a logical view of how to asses a good coach including.. system, motivation, development etc...

    then you will be able to realize D'Ant is not that good.

    That whole "only good players equal good coaching" logic is flawed.

    To add...

    I pointed out how none of our previous 4 coaches had telent. You said you were a Knick fan so...

    I can conclude that you supported all of them, since they would be better w/ talent. That's not straws its deductive reasoning. My points are too well made and documented to start the whole politics and Obama thing- that's tangents.

    Other coaches have shown promise w/ less talent. They proved that winning isn't necessarily by score. How do you think coaches on bad teams get recruited to coach better teams? They show their system, philosphy and intangibles are there talent or not!

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    Yeah... that's what I thought.
    You thought? Haven't you run from the only two other debates we have had? (regrading N8 and Lee) Yea...that's what I thought...

    Now it's time to compare D'Ant to Obama (and the situation)- politics?... please.
    It's an analogy and a strong one at that. People think a president can wave a magic wand and create jobs, undo poor practices and solve every structural problem instantly. Unemployment at 9.7%...blame Obama. Health care costs out of control...blame Obama. Still in Iraq...blame Obama. Nevermind what he inherited... etc etc

    You and the Dant haters believe the same thing. The Knicks are out of the playoffs...blame Dant. The Knicks have bad team chemistry...blame Dant. The Knicks can't play defense...blame Dant. You expect Dant to make a team with mediocre talent into a consistent winner. You expect he can take a team devoid of a superstar and make the playoffs. You expect he can take a team with no real center and no defensive presence and make them into a defensive team.

    You put too much weight into what a coach can do just like many put too much weight into what a president can do all while ignoring the facts on the ground. Perfect analogy.

    Winning doesn't necessarily have to do with "the score".


    More often than not, it's HOW you win/lose that matters.
    Actually it has everything to do with winning. That's a nice talking point to teach Little League children who are there to learn and have fun. It does not hold weight with professional athletes who are paid millions to perform a job.

    when WE LOSE DUE TO OUR FLAWED SYSTEM... it's D'Ants fault.
    There you go again talking about a system we have no used since the first week of the season. I explained this with great detail in the other debate about Lee that you decided to walk away from...

    when WE LOSE GAMES WE ACTUALLY HAD A CHANCE TO WIN.... it's D'Ants fault.
    That is a false statement not rooted in reality. Sure, a coach can make a mistake and cost us a game. Certainly a player can lose a close game. Certainly a player can miss an open shot. Certainly the opposing team has a say in who wins and who loses. It's not all about our coach every single close game we lost. Again you are pinning everything on Dant.

    It's funny because you spent pages bashing David Lee but now blame everything on Dant. Lee is easily our best player yet you think he is overrated and just a role player. You can't have it both ways! You can't say our best player sucks and then blame the coach for everything.

    not fouling late in games
    I have seen them foul but agree they should do it more often. It's an oldschool approach and something many coaches no longer due.

    poor rotations
    You can't take a finger painting and turn it into a masterpiece. Dant is handed a bunch of players with limited talent. I would argue his 8 man rotation lead to the best ball we have seen in years. (late November to mid-January)

    not realizing who the hot hands are or who's best at a position (evaluation)
    I agree he could be better with this but remember that our ball distributor is Duhon and we have a team of ISO players who all thik they are Kobe Bryant.

    Kobe and Jordan can make even the worst coach look like a genius. Certainly Jackson doesn't draw up a play calling for a fadeway 3 pointer over two defenders at the buzzer. It's easy to call an ISO play for Kobe and let him go to work.

    not building/maintain. chemistry
    The chemistry has been lacking for years...it's called losing. Dant shares the blame with all the million dollar adults who should be acting like...well adults making millions of dollars playing ball. Nate was immature and Hughes thinks he is the second coming of Jordan. They own just as much blame as Dant.

    hands (Lee is an all-star, Gallo is a lottery pick aka the best)
    Wha?

    can't develop players
    I have a 2 time MVP that would differ with you. Hill is raw and TD is a late round combo guard. This isn't 2k where you can just allocate skillpoints to make a player better.

    showing favoritism
    I can agree with that but I think most coaches have their favorite players.

    not having a solid defensive plan
    It's all about the players...Our zone D is not that bad and only gets exploited because we are undersized and don't have tenacious defenders.

    I don't wnat to hear about "TALENT" when MY team blows double digit leads- DUE TO OUR FLAWED SYSTEM!
    LOL...system again. It's all the system! Put these guys in Phil Jackson's system and they won't be **** either. Nevermind the lack of players...it's the system!. Forget that Dant took the Suns from a sub .500 team to 60+ wins in each year he coached...nah it's his system.

    By your standards (argument) we shouldn't even play, unless we can field a team that was already proven to win- that's illogical & irrational. Stop it!
    WTF are you talking about? Putting words in my mouth? You need to stop.

    Lastly, Joe Torre was thought of as a mid-level coach- until he inherited the highest payroll. It was believed he was perfect for the NY Yanks....

    Until another coach (Gerardi) achieved success. Look at Torre now. Same results. The same happened in PHX, now look, they are achieving w/ the same talent, diff. coach- go figure.
    I am not a baseball fan and even I know this is bunk. Torre had massive amounts of talent Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Clemens, Petite etc etc. The Yanks didn't win **** for years until they bought a new pitching staff. Let me guess...Giradi could have taken the Pirates and coached them to a championship...it had nothing to do with the talent...GTFOH.

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