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Thread: Let's End This Now.

  1. #1
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Default Let's End This Now.

    WARNING WARNING WARNING...very long post.

    In an attempt to merge threads and consolidate thoughts, this thread will cover the following issues that have led to differing opinions:

    1. Firing / Supporting Mike D'Antoni.
    2. Is Gallo over-rated?
    3. Should we keep David Lee?
    4. Arguing

    The following are from recent posts from the threads dealing with these issues. Links to follow.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    In response to me stating my opinion on why I believe D'Antoni was responsible (due to flaws in his system and his personality) for some losses this season, which I conclude leads me to think he's over-rated...

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    You thought? Haven't you run from the only two other debates we have had? (regrading N8 and Lee) Yea...that's what I thought...
    No Trill I didn't run from anything. What I did do was offer a solution. We could just wait and let time tell. If I'm wrong I'll admit it. You neglected to take me up on my offer. Basically I said Lee is too limited and will demand too much $ to be a value to our rebuilding project.

    While you and others try feverishly to post Lee's stats and recent accomplishments...

    You also agree that Bosh would be a better fit if available AND admit "our talent" isn't that good- which is ACTUALLY SAYING WHAT I'M SAYING

    yet you argue (i'll get to that later). If our team isn't that good then that includes Lee. or is he the exception?

    On my request to not compare Barack Obama and bring politics into the situation dealing with D'Antoni.

    notice the generality "people" and the tangents. Recall I stated D'Antoni's system is flawed imo and nothing about I expect him to...


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    It's an analogy and a strong one at that. People think a president can wave a magic wand and create jobs, undo poor practices and solve every structural problem instantly. Unemployment at 9.7%...blame Obama. Health care costs out of control...blame Obama. Still in Iraq...blame Obama. Nevermind what he inherited... etc etc
    I'm guessing your point is to "blame" D'Antoni's predecessors for what he inherited?

    Well again, you want to absolve a coach because he has nothing to work with, in your opinion.

    Where you go wrong is...

    YOU keep praising LEE and GALLO and D'Antoni but neglect to hold them accountable for failures. As I have pointed out it's a classic "Double standard". Along with another "double standard" I pointed out which was...

    If you want to use "were void of talent" as an excuse for coach. then one can reasonably assume you supported keeping our last 4 coaches- since they were in the same situation. Your response to that later...

    Again, comparing D'Antoni to Obama, when considering WHO the PRESIDENT and more specifically Obama really is, is a joke. And a subject YOU never heard me bring up nor do I wish to. Please refrain from putting words into mouths. Next...


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    You and the Dant haters believe the same thing. The Knicks are out of the playoffs...blame Dant. The Knicks have bad team chemistry...blame Dant. The Knicks can't play defense...blame Dant. You expect Dant to make a team with mediocre talent into a consistent winner. You expect he can take a team devoid of a superstar and make the playoffs. You expect he can take a team with no real center and no defensive presence and make them into a defensive team.

    You put too much weight into what a coach can do just like many put too much weight into what a president can do all while ignoring the facts on the ground. Perfect analogy.
    The fact remains D'Antoni has (probably have) 50 loses the two years he coached here. I (I believe) reasonably assumed IF D'Antoni were better our record would reflect this- is that wrong?

    I would request you to show me where I said blame D'Antoni for the Knicks not making the playoffs or comparing him to Obama,

    but I know you can't. One you say he's that good, next you say, but he can only do so much.

    On what WINNING really means...

    I say it's not always necessarily about the score, you say...


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Actually it has everything to do with winning. That's a nice talking point to teach Little League children who are there to learn and have fun. It does not hold weight with professional athletes who are paid millions to perform a job.
    So now their pay dictates what is acceptable as a win? O.K. so if I say "they, including D'Antoni are paid too much to lose like this" then you would still argue right? That's nonsense and just argumentative.

    More on that later.

    I guess the reason why some little leagues dont keep score isn't to teach the children about winning?

    it's because the coaches, managers and administrators "dont get paid enough". SMH...


    On the flawed system (again)...


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    There you go again talking about a system we have no used since the first week of the season. I explained this with great detail in the other debate about Lee that you decided to walk away from...
    You're such an expert on the system. You seem to know it, in and out.
    As an objective person I would think you realized EVERY system has weaknesses. I have listed what I felt are weakness including:

    - taking quicker shots translates into more offensive opportunities for the opponent
    - increased fatigue
    - de-emphasizing defense

    and requested you to show me YOUR criteria for rating a coach. You declined.

    I also included D'Antoni's personality and lack of intangibles such as:
    - leadership
    - motivation
    - communication

    again, you neglected to address this.

    The below link is from December 12th 2009. A full season and a month to change and adapt.

    BTW, I assumed you understood the difference between "SYSTEM" and "PHILOSOPHY" and maybe I wasn't clear. Anyhow, his philosophy is flawed and thus affects the system.

    I'll get into that later....


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    NEW ORLEANS -- Mike D'Antoni, inventor of the "Seven Seconds or Less" offense, admits he has tinkered with his formula during the Knicks' surge, having slowed the attack.
    "As long as it's 24 seconds or less," D'Antoni said jokingly before the Knicks won their fourth straight and fifth in six games in a comeback victory over the Hornets at New Orleans Arena.
    D'Antoni said the dramatic change came after their franchise-worst 1-9 start, finally realizing the talent does not translate to speedball. When D'Antoni accepted the Knicks job before the 2008-09 season, there were questions if D'Antoni would adapt his system to the talent. It took him a while, but he's finally adjusted.

    Once again good technique...

    Over exaggeration mixed with a bit of agreement, all the while leading to another misleading statement: you are pinning everything on Dant.

    No, I didn't.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    That is a false statement not rooted in reality. Sure, a coach can make a mistake and cost us a game. Certainly a player can lose a close game. Certainly a player can miss an open shot. Certainly the opposing team has a say in who wins and who loses. It's not all about our coach every single close game we lost. Again you are pinning everything on Dant.

    It's funny because you spent pages bashing David Lee but now blame everything on Dant. Lee is easily our best player yet you think he is overrated and just a role player. You can't have it both ways! You can't say our best player sucks and then blame the coach for everything.
    Yes, I think Lee is just a role player and for his price and skill set I don't want him.

    He's limited and partly responsible for where we are. I look forward to an upgrade. I said "people are talking about Bron and Bosh, or Bron and Wade"- no one is talking Bron and Lee.

    That's why we cleared space for two, because Lee isn't good enough
    at his asking price. Is that not obvious?

    That's me not straddling on the fence, this is you...





    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Quote:
    At an affordable price he's a role player, at 10-12 mil... he's invisible to me
    This I agree with.
    I left it at that...

    now you talking about how I'm running...wtf?

    and still arguing...


    On my point about not fouling late in games. A D'Antoni decision that directly affected the outcome(s)...


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I have seen them foul but agree they should do it more often. It's an oldschool approach and something many coaches no longer due.


    You can't take a finger painting and turn it into a masterpiece. Dant is handed a bunch of players with limited talent. I would argue his 8 man rotation lead to the best ball we have seen in years. (late November to mid-January)


    I agree he could be better with this but remember that our ball distributor is Duhon and we have a team of ISO players who all thik they are Kobe Bryant.

    Kobe and Jordan can make even the worst coach look like a genius. Certainly Jackson doesn't draw up a play calling for a fadeway 3 pointer over two defenders at the buzzer. It's easy to call an ISO play for Kobe and let him go to work.
    blah, blah, blah...

    Now I must expect a Kobe or Jordan to believe a coach should do whatever to help the club? SMH...

    I'm really wondering do you "know basketball" or "know how to play basketball"? I'm not so sure anymore, and further I'm starting to wonder why I even bother? Next...

    BTW, a post on the SSOL system will follow, so we can all be on the same page as Trillion.

    On my words regarding the lack of chemistry being attributable to coach...

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    The chemistry has been lacking for years...it's called losing. Dant shares the blame with all the million dollar adults who should be acting like...well adults making millions of dollars playing ball. Nate was immature and Hughes thinks he is the second coming of Jordan. They own just as much blame as Dant.
    Wait...
    are you agreeing with me again? Looks like D'Antoni might not be that good...lol

    On my lack of development point and favoritism...


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I have a 2 time MVP that would differ with you. Hill is raw and TD is a late round combo guard. This isn't 2k where you can just allocate skillpoints to make a player better.


    I can agree with that but I think most coaches have their favorite players.


    It's all about the players...Our zone D is not that bad and only gets exploited because we are undersized and don't have tenacious defenders.
    You would think that you already understood that D'Antoni's profile and a byproduct of his offensive philosophy lacks defense and...

    how Nash wasn't that bad prior to the Suns and...

    you realized our D is and has been "that bad" and...

    by undersized that directly reflects Lee (who you will say is playing out of position)and...

    have realized that again, favoritism and rotations are directly attributable to coach but...

    you argue.


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    LOL...system again. It's all the system! Put these guys in Phil Jackson's system and they won't be **** either. Nevermind the lack of players...it's the system!. Forget that Dant took the Suns from a sub .500 team to 60+ wins in each year he coached...nah it's his system.
    And I'm grasping for straws? Good try though!

    I can't forget D'Antoni won 60+ games because you keep reminding me.

    I would like to point out...

    Shouldn't that mean he can do better than 50 loses per?

    "Yesterday was history, tomorrows a mystery... blah blah,

    you get it.


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    WTF are you talking about? Putting words in my mouth? You need to stop.



    I am not a baseball fan and even I know this is bunk. Torre had massive amounts of talent Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Clemens, Petite etc etc. The Yanks didn't win **** for years until they bought a new pitching staff. Let me guess...Giradi could have taken the Pirates and coached them to a championship...it had nothing to do with the talent...GTFOH.
    Ah... I love this technique

    The one when you accuse someone of doing something you actually do.

    Torre had talent but STILL LOST! Do YOU know why????

    When you figure that out let me know. If you don't know baseball, my bad.
    But then after I mistakenly assumed you did, do you write about it as if you know?

    That was rhetorical as most of this thread is.

    I simply mean to point out how the back and forth and countless threads are started to say the same ****- here's one here (lol).

    But also I want to point out that while obviously we differ in opinion (KOL)
    some can't find solace in the fact that remains; the future results will speak for themselves.

    Why argue?

    Why straddle the fence?

    I believe...

    D'Antoni was a mistake and should go. I hope we do, but I dont see him winning a championship or puting us in a better position to do so, with the way he is (system and all).

    Lee is over-rated and will out price himself.

    Gallo was a mistake, but I could live with him because he's cheap.

    If I'm wrong on the stuff that we can measure, I'll admit it when it happens.

    I can respect others opinions but it's hard without a logical explanation.

    Not to offend but the above are who I refer to the great White hypes.

    All three are exactly what I'm not looking for (no homo) to establish something with my team...

    Defense.

    On Seven Seconds or Less aka the Spread Pick & Roll and the NYK's:

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    "I'm a firm believer in whatever system you run has to fit the players you have. The Spread PNR, requires that you have the kind of point guard that can read the defense and make smart instinctual decisions. The Knicks lack that at the moment"

    You would think the coach would know this and pushed as hard for a well enough PG, but he settled for Duhon instead.

    I guess he knows something we don't.

    And, the system has been tweaked, I thought by watching that everyone realized the philosophy remained. O'well.

    On arguing technique...

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    "Be aware that these techniques are deeply flawed from a logical standpoint. But since arguments are inherently foolish, this is not a problem. If you ever want to turn a discussion into an argument, simply start following these suggestions."

    Please refrain from doing this, either by your natural tendency or provocation.

    We all can discuss D'Antoni, Gallo, and Lee...

    we can't argue that we're (some of us) are Knick fans and

    the results will speak for themselves.

    By this time next year, we ALL should be looking forward to the Playoffs!

    One.

  2. #2
    Sexy Stud knickzrulezH20's Avatar
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    No we should not fire D'antoni this year. He wasn't brought to do anything this year. Next year is when things count, if he fails to take us anywhere then we oust him.


    No Gallo is not overrated, he'll be fine. He's in slump he'll get out of it, and continue showing improvement. Next year is when things count, and if he shows no significant improvement next year then we got a problem.

    If the price is right we must keep David Lee. He does everything but defend. His defense is awful, but that what Big Mac-McFlurry's contract is for. We could go get a center like Okafor, Beidrins..etc etc. If Lee is looking for MAX im afraid we can't accomdate that. 8-10 million is a fair price for Lee.

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    Veteran jpz17's Avatar
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    Red listen. I'm giving you a big THUMBS DOWN for this topic. It was a personal attack on TR1LLON and I do not appreciate you doing that to a fellow poster. End the LeBron topics. End the Gallinari to d-league topics. End the fire D'Antoni topics. Lets focus on our next game, some strategies, and maybe some old Knick tributes. Anyways.. thumbs down

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    KnicksonLIN.com
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    Great thread, Red.
    My answers to the questions:
    1. D'Antoni deserves to be fired. He had a chance to get the Knicks talent, but he passed up on Brook Lopez, passed up on Jordan Hill, passed up on
    Andre Miller, passed up on Stephon Marbury, and passed up on Nate Robinson and Toney Douglas. His record with the Knicks: 52-89(.368).
    2. Danilo Gallinari is overrated. He shoots 41% at 6'10. Brook Lopez,
    Eric Gordon, and Roy Hibbert are all better than Gallinari. Gallinari is 21. He will be 22 in August. Eric Gordon and Brook Lopez have better numbers than Gallinari, and they're the same age as Gallinari.
    3. I think the Knicks should keep David Lee, if he accepts 10 million/yr.
    If he wants more than that, sign and trade him for a first round pick and some role players that can also hustle and rebound.

    P.S.-JPZ17, I have no idea what you are talking about.
    Red was simply responding to Tr1ll1on'S posts. I saw absolutely zero insults.
    And what a coinkydink that you have a picture of D'Antoni on your avatar, and you are defending a guy that also supports D'Antoni(Tr1ll1on)?

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    Did I just read "D'Antoni wasn't brought to do anything this year" ?

    SMH....

    SMFH....

    Coaching in the NBA cant be this easy.

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    Sexy Stud knickzrulezH20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Scribbles
    Did I just read "D'Antoni wasn't brought to do anything this year" ?

    SMH....

    SMFH....

    Coaching in the NBA cant be this easy.
    That's right. The 2010 plan basically is giving D'ant a free pass in terms of winning for this and last year. So people can beg and say w.e they want about D'ant, he ain't going anywhere unless he fails next year. That's a fact.

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    Sexy Stud knickzrulezH20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jpz17
    Red listen. I'm giving you a big THUMBS DOWN for this topic. It was a personal attack on TR1LLON and I do not appreciate you doing that to a fellow poster. End the LeBron topics. End the Gallinari to d-league topics. End the fire D'Antoni topics. Lets focus on our next game, some strategies, and maybe some old Knick tributes. Anyways.. thumbs down
    Lol I like this Red vs Trillion debate personally. Two smart posters arguin about diff sides of the spectrum, I side more with Trill though on this debate.

  8. #8
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    IDK red, I like most of your posts, but to me this looks like something you just created to attack TR1L.

    That said I agree with you on some stuff and disagree on other stuff...but for me with D'Antoni, what it comes down to is there's nobody out there that could do much with this talent.

    I know, you can point to the fact that D'Antoni and Isiah had similar records.

    But Isiah also had Steph, Crawford and Z-Bo.

    D'Antoni, midway through last season, lost his two most productive players for essentially nothing.

    Now, if our team is restructured, we actually keep the most effective players on the team and D'Antoni still has this team looking like chickens with their heads cut-off, then yes I am okay with firing him. But let's be real, how many coaches in the league can succeed when one season they lose their 2 most effective players for Al Harrington and Tim Thomas?

    That's not an excuse for this year, Sergio coming in and starting does certainly prove D'Antoni has something against Robinson. Whether you think Robinson is good or not is your opinion (I think he's not). I've seen some people complain about Jordan Hill. Quite honestly, the Hill pick has always confused me. He's not a guy that would ever fit in a D'Antoni system, and ultimately I think Lee will play Hill's position better than Hill ever will. Something about that pick makes me wonder how much power D'Antoni really has in the draft. I know the Gallo pick tends to show otherwise (I wanted Eric Gordon, personally), but I really don't think Hill was a player that D'Antoni ever would have drafted, and the fact that he didn't play him at all sort of proved it.

    And as for Gallinari, I've seen some talk on here about how this guy isn't a rookie. But the fact is, while he technically is a sophomore, he didn't really play at all his rookie year. I know he is not actually a rookie, but for all intents and purposes he is. Now, if you want to talk about what a 21-year-old is doing having serious back problems, that's a whole other issue. Quite honestly, the back problem bothers me. A 21-year-old shouldn't have a bad back (I feel similarly about the knees of Andrew Bynum). This is Gallo's first FULL year in the league, and I think he has hit that wall. I hope I'm right, but if I'm wrong and this guy is a bust, just add it to the list of guys like Mike Sweetney and Frederic Weis who we made a mistake drafting. Doesn't excuse the mistake, but the fact is to pin all our problems on one botched draft pick ignores the tons of other bad draft picks and bad decisions. Yes, passing up Lopez and Gordon for Gallo may prove to be a mistake. But it's not the only mistake this team has ever made.

    I agree with you though about Lee. Him becoming an all-star was the worst thing for us. Why? He's going to want all-star money. Now, I do believe Lee can be a starter on a championship team. But he can't be THE guy. He needs to have talent around him. Unfortunately, for the price he will demand (I'm assuming), he will be unsignable.

    But one interesting thing about Lee that makes me really want to keep this guy. Last week, the Knicks honored the 1970 NBA Champion Knicks, I'm sure many of you watched and heard about it. One guy, one single guy, on the Knicks roster watched that ceremony. His name is David Lee. To me, this is just sad. Nobody in that locker room right now seems to care about this team's legacy, this teams history, and what this team means to New York...except David. He seems to have respect for this franchise, he seems to love this franchise, and of all the guys he seems to want to turn this franchise back to glory. I just wonder if he'd take less than he'll be asking for to do it.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    I'm honored you started a thread to respond to little ole me...I don't have time at the moment but rest assured I will respond point by point. I think we actually agree more than you think I just think the dividing line comes down to how much a coach can change our team. As Ahhhhhnold says...I'll be back!

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Fuk it...I will respond now.


    Okay lets clear something up. It's obvious thay you have your panties in a knot over my "run" comment. I only said it because both the N8 and Lee thread started as a good healthy debate and both ended with me responding point by point and you never posting in that thread again. If you want I can look up the links to show you.

    Further, why didn't you respond in the other thread? Was a new thread dedicated to calling me out really necessary? Anyway to the actual debate...

    No Trill I didn't run from anything. What I did do was offer a solution. We could just wait and let time tell. If I'm wrong I'll admit it. You neglected to take me up on my offer. Basically I said Lee is too limited and will demand too much $ to be a value to our rebuilding project.
    For whatever reason both the thread on N8 and the thread on Lee ended abruptly in the middle of the debate with me responding last. You solution is to wait and see what we pay Lee...okay we can have a debate at the time on Lee's contract to his woth. That does not mean I can't debate the Lee's skills and value. Even here you call him limited yet I posted ample reasons why he is not.

    21 PPG
    11 RPG
    ambidextrous finisher
    high FG%
    League leader in assists for Centers
    Low turnover rate
    high basket ball IQ (does all the intangibles)

    A 20/10 all-star is a rare breed and that can't be disputed. The guy is consistent and only getting better. Each year he gets better and adds another dimension to his game. He was able to develop is midrange jumper which spreads the floor and drive to the basket. These are alll facts that directly counter your assertion that Lee is limited.

    What Lee lacks is defense and I never asserted otherwise. What I said is that his weakness on defense is magnified by him being forced to play out of position. Lee is also not Kobe or Lebron or even Bosh. Those guys are the creme of the crop...they are superstars and Lee is an all-star. They can take over and win games consistently. They can dominate players with their strength and athleticism while Lee needs to be crafty and smart to earn his points. Lee is a second option who can explode on any given night but is reliable for his daily double-double. I never said we should pay Lee max money or close to it. He deserves no more than 10mil because of the things I listed that separate him from a Bosh.

    While you and others try feverishly to post Lee's stats and recent accomplishments..
    Nothing feverish about it...I simply typed an accurate list of stats that proves my point. You can't just dismiss those stats which are steadily improving and consistent. That is how you measure an NBA player. Yes, their are intangibles but I would argue Lee does all the offensive intangibles like picks, passing out of the double team, boxing out and cutting to the basket. Again, what Lee lacks is defense and the STATS prove that.

    yet you argue (i'll get to that later). If our team isn't that good then that includes Lee. or is he the exception?
    Lee is our best player but he is not a 1st option. He is not a superstar who can dominate nightly and take games over. Thats not his game and I never claimed it was. He needs a superstar that commands a doubleteam and a center who can play defense. I don't blame any specific player or coach for our failings I blame our overall talent. BTW, this is to be expected in the last year of a 3 year process to purge as much salary as possible. Simply put, we all hoped the Knicks would overachieve but really they are exactly where they are supposed to be.

    I'm guessing your point is to "blame" D'Antoni's predecessors for what he inherited?

    Well again, you want to absolve a coach because he has nothing to work with, in your opinion.
    I don't want to absolve Dant and I always claimed he is not perfect. I am putting the role of coach in context compared to our talent level. Face facts dude...we do not have a talented enough squad to make the playoffs let alone contend for a title. There isn't a single coach who could change that...we need better players! We have no center. We have no superstar. We only just got a decent PG. Teams missing those pieces lose 50+ games a year!

    YOU keep praising LEE and GALLO and D'Antoni but neglect to hold them accountable for failures.
    You are just flat out making that up. Look at any thread were I discuss Lee or Gallo and you will clearly see me discussing both their pros and cons. I am not an emotional fan who gets mancrushes on players...I evaluate talent objectively. I just recognize that their are factors at work beyond the individual player. You call it an excuse..I call it the truth. Until you can prove something as wrong it is not enough to just dismiss it as an excuse.

    If you want to use "were void of talent" as an excuse for coach. then one can reasonably assume you supported keeping our last 4 coaches- since they were in the same situation. Your response to that later...
    It's not an excuse it's fact. Is your position that talent does not matter and we win or lose based off of our coach alone?

    Further I answered this silly point about bringing up previous coaches. They all had better talent and were brought in to win. Dant was brought in because we had an opportunity to snag an elite NBA coach and made that move even though the plan was 2010. He was hired and clearly made mention of the fact that this is a long term rebuilding process. You cannot compare a team that is shedding players and contracts to our previous coaches that were there to WIN. Yes, we would have liked to beat out expectations and make the playoffs but it was not expected YET.

    Just to crystallize this point...Normally the last thing an organization does is bring in the coach. Typically teams have talent and bring in a new coach to fix a problem or implement a specific system to improve upon a solid foundation. Dant was brought in 2-3 years too early to reap the benefits of what he brings to the table. That means we suffer and wait for the 2010 plan to unfold. Patience is virtue.

    The fact remains D'Antoni has (probably have) 50 loses the two years he coached here. I (I believe) reasonably assumed IF D'Antoni were better our record would reflect this- is that wrong?
    Maybe we have 2-5 more wins. We would still be out of the playoffs and still be waiting till 2010. Further, both years we made massive trades and fundamentally changed our team directly contributing to loses. We could have kept Randolph and Crawford and might be the 7th seed right now. We wouldn't go far though and we would kill any chance at getting a real superstar...but hey we might have a .500 record...

    So now their pay dictates what is acceptable as a win? O.K. so if I say "they, including D'Antoni are paid too much to lose like this" then you would still argue right? That's nonsense and just argumentative.
    Listen, you made an inaccurate statement that winning doesn't have to do with the score. I countered that it clearly does. My comment about their salary is to highlight that they are professionals and do not need the cliche talking point that "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game".

    I guess the reason why some little leagues dont keep score isn't to teach the children about winning?

    it's because the coaches, managers and administrators "dont get paid enough". SMH...
    LOL, I never said anything close to what you just wrote...simmer down guy.

    You're such an expert on the system. You seem to know it, in and out.
    As an objective person I would think you realized EVERY system has weaknesses. I have listed what I felt are weakness including:

    - taking quicker shots translates into more offensive opportunities for the opponent
    - increased fatigue
    - de-emphasizing defense
    DUDE!!!! We ARE NOT PLAYING SEVEN SECONDS OR LESS!!!!!!!!! how many times do I need to point this out to you? We have been playing a classic half-court offense that revolves around the pick and roll and spreading the floor with good passing. We are not RUN AND GUN this year. We just went back to it because we lost the little bit of size and defense we had. When you don't have a true center or a good defense you must rely on outscoring the opponent. That is why we reverted. Again, pthe majority of the season has been a traditional offense!

    Now if you want to have a debate on SSOL that is another topic all together. I would say that defense can be worked into a SSOL offense with the right players. I agree that SSOL is flawed if it is not accompanied by strong defense. I have yet to hear anyone lay out why SSOL precludes a team from playing good defense. People assume that because the Suns and their players played a certain way on defense that it means the system is fundamentally flawed. I would argue again that it had to do with players. Amare is trash on D and Nash is not known for his defense. The Suns still aren't an elite defensive team even though they have another coach.

    I also included D'Antoni's personality and lack of intangibles such as:
    - leadership
    - motivation
    - communication

    again, you neglected to address this.
    All your feelings and the general atmosphere of the Knicks has to do with one thing...losing. The Suns were a cohesive team firing on all cylinders and both Amare and Nash have repeatedly made it clear they would love to play for Dant again. Winning changes everything...when we lose all the bull**** and blaming is what takes center stage. If we were kicking ass no one would be talking about poor Hughes and his lack of playing time.

    Yes, I think Lee is just a role player and for his price and skill set I don't want him.
    Please explain why a team who's best player is a role player should be doing better than what we are. Why is Dant to blame for our failures when you clearly call our best player average? You are basically proving my point about talent every time you attack our best player.

    He's limited and partly responsible for where we are. I look forward to an upgrade. I said "people are talking about Bron and Bosh, or Bron and Wade"- no one is talking Bron and Lee.

    That's why we cleared space for two, because Lee isn't good enough
    at his asking price. Is that not obvious?
    Actually we barely have room for two max players and we will be stretched really thin next year if we did. Some would argue that you sign a max like Lebron along with Lee and leave room for decent role players to fill needs. I argue we sign the best possible talent and worry about filling holes later. If that means Lebron and Bosh than Lee can take a hike. I am not married to Lee nor did I ever give the impression he is a must keeper. I also recognize the additional cap coming at the deadline when we trade Curry and go over the cap.

    If we can't sign Bosh than Lee is the best option available unless we make an unexpected sign and trade. Lee would thrive with a Lebron or Wade claiber player. He would thrive off of the doubleteams those players create and will get all the scrappy hustle plays and second chances. He is the perfect compliment for a superstar since he does not need plays called for him in order to put in work.

    In conclusion, I never claimed Lee was a number one option or that Dant was a perfect coach. Those are words and thoughts you dreamt up to change the dynamic of the debate. I have always put everything in context and recognized both the good and the bad. You give way to much credit to what a coach can do in spite of talent. You wrongly assert that we have been using SSOL and that Lee's stats are somehow inflated because of it. That was a talking point from last year that you can't seem to let go.

    The rest of your post is an incoherent ramble with a splash of personal attacks. You also repeat yourself so I will leave it at that. I made my case.

  11. #11
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    IDK red, I like most of your posts, but to me this looks like something you just created to attack TR1L.

    That said I agree with you on some stuff and disagree on other stuff...but for me with D'Antoni, what it comes down to is there's nobody out there that could do much with this talent.

    I know, you can point to the fact that D'Antoni and Isiah had similar records.

    But Isiah also had Steph, Crawford and Z-Bo.

    D'Antoni, midway through last season, lost his two most productive players for essentially nothing.

    Now, if our team is restructured, we actually keep the most effective players on the team and D'Antoni still has this team looking like chickens with their heads cut-off, then yes I am okay with firing him. But let's be real, how many coaches in the league can succeed when one season they lose their 2 most effective players for Al Harrington and Tim Thomas?

    That's not an excuse for this year, Sergio coming in and starting does certainly prove D'Antoni has something against Robinson. Whether you think Robinson is good or not is your opinion (I think he's not). I've seen some people complain about Jordan Hill. Quite honestly, the Hill pick has always confused me. He's not a guy that would ever fit in a D'Antoni system, and ultimately I think Lee will play Hill's position better than Hill ever will. Something about that pick makes me wonder how much power D'Antoni really has in the draft. I know the Gallo pick tends to show otherwise (I wanted Eric Gordon, personally), but I really don't think Hill was a player that D'Antoni ever would have drafted, and the fact that he didn't play him at all sort of proved it.

    And as for Gallinari, I've seen some talk on here about how this guy isn't a rookie. But the fact is, while he technically is a sophomore, he didn't really play at all his rookie year. I know he is not actually a rookie, but for all intents and purposes he is. Now, if you want to talk about what a 21-year-old is doing having serious back problems, that's a whole other issue. Quite honestly, the back problem bothers me. A 21-year-old shouldn't have a bad back (I feel similarly about the knees of Andrew Bynum). This is Gallo's first FULL year in the league, and I think he has hit that wall. I hope I'm right, but if I'm wrong and this guy is a bust, just add it to the list of guys like Mike Sweetney and Frederic Weis who we made a mistake drafting. Doesn't excuse the mistake, but the fact is to pin all our problems on one botched draft pick ignores the tons of other bad draft picks and bad decisions. Yes, passing up Lopez and Gordon for Gallo may prove to be a mistake. But it's not the only mistake this team has ever made.

    I agree with you though about Lee. Him becoming an all-star was the worst thing for us. Why? He's going to want all-star money. Now, I do believe Lee can be a starter on a championship team. But he can't be THE guy. He needs to have talent around him. Unfortunately, for the price he will demand (I'm assuming), he will be unsignable.

    But one interesting thing about Lee that makes me really want to keep this guy. Last week, the Knicks honored the 1970 NBA Champion Knicks, I'm sure many of you watched and heard about it. One guy, one single guy, on the Knicks roster watched that ceremony. His name is David Lee. To me, this is just sad. Nobody in that locker room right now seems to care about this team's legacy, this teams history, and what this team means to New York...except David. He seems to have respect for this franchise, he seems to love this franchise, and of all the guys he seems to want to turn this franchise back to glory. I just wonder if he'd take less than he'll be asking for to do it.

    Great post! Especially the part about Lee respecting the Knicks legacy. I listen to him in interviews at halftime and the dude is clearly knowledgeable and smart. he says all the right things and knows why a game is going a certain way. I predict he will be a head coach one day. We all know Lee is not a gifted athletic specimen so it's clear he uses his fundamentals and savvy to thrive.

  12. #12
    12th man
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    Wow, Red went deep into this dude.

    1st round KO.

  13. #13
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Default Peep it...

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    "What's fair is fair."

    But somewhat surprisingly, D'Antoni did not take umbrage with Cleveland coach Mike Brown's not-so-subtle shot at the Knicks' style of play. After the Cavs hammered the Knicks by 31 points, Brown said: "I'm not a fan of those old Sacramento, old Dallas and old Phoenix teams. The success of that formula in the playoffs is not very high."

    Told of Brown's comments, D'Antoni noted that the Cavs are trying to win in a more traditional way, emphasizing defense.

    "That's his philosophy, and it's worked, but they haven't won a title yet, you know?" he said. "But everybody has a way they coach and what they think works."

    Despite the Kni
    cks' results since he has been in New York, D'Antoni still believes in his system, which helped Phoenix win at least 60 games twice and helped the Suns make to back-to-back trips to the Western Conference finals.

    But as well as he did with two-time MVP Steve Nash, D'Antoni often came under fire for using a system that never got the postseason stops to reach a Finals. With the Knicks headed toward another 50-loss season, there are questions whether D'Antoni's system will work in New York, even if the Knicks can attract marquee free agents such as LeBron James and Chris Bosh this summer.

    "Different people have different philosophies, but (Brown) is right - we never got past San Antonio," D'Antoni said.

    Brown was with the Spurs as an assistant to Gregg Popovich for three seasons, including the 2003 championship team that defeated the Nets.

    But rather than chalk up Brown's remarks to being on the staff of a former rival, D'Antoni did admit that his team's defensive shortcomings prevented the Suns from getting to a Game 7 in the West finals.

    "Obviously, if we could have played better defense, we'd have been better," he said. "It's not like we didn't try. We did. We were just honed to our offensive talents. I think we maximized them and we had a real good chance to beat San Antonio two or three times and we did not do it. So it's on us."
    Maybe this dude can change and adapt. IDK

    I'll hold out hope.

  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Wow, Red went deep into this dude.

    1st round KO.
    Still on my sack munching away...it must taste really good. Bitches and their acquired tastes...
    Last edited by TR1LL10N; Mar 03, 2010 at 08:43.

  15. #15
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    Honestly I was all for the idea of the thread, to consolidate all of these redundant topics into one thread. The first paragraph had me really excited. But Red went through threads and ONLY quoted Trillion. It's just a red vs. trillion debate thread and doesn't really leave a lot of room for the rest of us.

    Don't get me wrong, I'll grab some popcorn and watch the fireworks, maybe even stoke the fire with some thoughts... but I'm a little disappointed that such a good thread idea was really just a vessel for a personal rebuttal to trillion on the threads that already exist. Easily, you could of broken this thread down and replied to trill in each thread.

    Instead of consolidating threads and ideas, you've just added to the redundancy of the boards. I'm sorry I thought this was going to be a great topic but instead it's just more of the same.

    It's like watching the Knicks after the trade deadline "Oh we got t-mac and eddie house and loads of cap room! Things are gonna be different around here!" but we still suck... :P

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