Red
TYPE-A
WARNING WARNING WARNING...very long post.
In an attempt to merge threads and consolidate thoughts, this thread will cover the following issues that have led to differing opinions:
1. Firing / Supporting Mike D'Antoni.
2. Is Gallo over-rated?
3. Should we keep David Lee?
4. Arguing
The following are from recent posts from the threads dealing with these issues. Links to follow.
http://www.knicksonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7459
In response to me stating my opinion on why I believe D'Antoni was responsible (due to flaws in his system and his personality) for some losses this season, which I conclude leads me to think he's over-rated...
No Trill I didn't run from anything. What I did do was offer a solution. We could just wait and let time tell. If I'm wrong I'll admit it. You neglected to take me up on my offer. Basically I said Lee is too limited and will demand too much $ to be a value to our rebuilding project.
While you and others try feverishly to post Lee's stats and recent accomplishments...
You also agree that Bosh would be a better fit if available AND admit "our talent" isn't that good- which is ACTUALLY SAYING WHAT I'M SAYING
yet you argue (i'll get to that later). If our team isn't that good then that includes Lee. or is he the exception?
On my request to not compare Barack Obama and bring politics into the situation dealing with D'Antoni.
notice the generality "people" and the tangents. Recall I stated D'Antoni's system is flawed imo and nothing about I expect him to...
I'm guessing your point is to "blame" D'Antoni's predecessors for what he inherited?
Well again, you want to absolve a coach because he has nothing to work with, in your opinion.
Where you go wrong is...
YOU keep praising LEE and GALLO and D'Antoni but neglect to hold them accountable for failures. As I have pointed out it's a classic "Double standard". Along with another "double standard" I pointed out which was...
If you want to use "were void of talent" as an excuse for coach. then one can reasonably assume you supported keeping our last 4 coaches- since they were in the same situation. Your response to that later...
Again, comparing D'Antoni to Obama, when considering WHO the PRESIDENT and more specifically Obama really is, is a joke. And a subject YOU never heard me bring up nor do I wish to. Please refrain from putting words into mouths. Next...
The fact remains D'Antoni has (probably have) 50 loses the two years he coached here. I (I believe) reasonably assumed IF D'Antoni were better our record would reflect this- is that wrong?
I would request you to show me where I said blame D'Antoni for the Knicks not making the playoffs or comparing him to Obama,
but I know you can't. One you say he's that good, next you say, but he can only do so much.
On what WINNING really means...
I say it's not always necessarily about the score, you say...
So now their pay dictates what is acceptable as a win? O.K. so if I say "they, including D'Antoni are paid too much to lose like this" then you would still argue right? That's nonsense and just argumentative.
More on that later.
I guess the reason why some little leagues dont keep score isn't to teach the children about winning?
it's because the coaches, managers and administrators "dont get paid enough". SMH...
On the flawed system (again)...
You're such an expert on the system. You seem to know it, in and out.
As an objective person I would think you realized EVERY system has weaknesses. I have listed what I felt are weakness including:
- taking quicker shots translates into more offensive opportunities for the opponent
- increased fatigue
- de-emphasizing defense
and requested you to show me YOUR criteria for rating a coach. You declined.
I also included D'Antoni's personality and lack of intangibles such as:
- leadership
- motivation
- communication
again, you neglected to address this.
The below link is from December 12th 2009. A full season and a month to change and adapt.
BTW, I assumed you understood the difference between "SYSTEM" and "PHILOSOPHY" and maybe I wasn't clear. Anyhow, his philosophy is flawed and thus affects the system.
I'll get into that later....
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/antoni_tweaks_offensive_strategy_zAKK8KmDcEKWzDQuocLQXK
Once again good technique...
Over exaggeration mixed with a bit of agreement, all the while leading to another misleading statement: you are pinning everything on Dant.
No, I didn't.
Yes, I think Lee is just a role player and for his price and skill set I don't want him.
He's limited and partly responsible for where we are. I look forward to an upgrade. I said "people are talking about Bron and Bosh, or Bron and Wade"- no one is talking Bron and Lee.
That's why we cleared space for two, because Lee isn't good enough
at his asking price. Is that not obvious?
That's me not straddling on the fence, this is you...
I left it at that...
now you talking about how I'm running...wtf?
and still arguing...
On my point about not fouling late in games. A D'Antoni decision that directly affected the outcome(s)...
blah, blah, blah...
Now I must expect a Kobe or Jordan to believe a coach should do whatever to help the club? SMH...
I'm really wondering do you "know basketball" or "know how to play basketball"? I'm not so sure anymore, and further I'm starting to wonder why I even bother? Next...
BTW, a post on the SSOL system will follow, so we can all be on the same page as Trillion.
On my words regarding the lack of chemistry being attributable to coach...
Wait...
are you agreeing with me again? Looks like D'Antoni might not be that good...lol
On my lack of development point and favoritism...
You would think that you already understood that D'Antoni's profile and a byproduct of his offensive philosophy lacks defense and...
how Nash wasn't that bad prior to the Suns and...
you realized our D is and has been "that bad" and...
by undersized that directly reflects Lee (who you will say is playing out of position)and...
have realized that again, favoritism and rotations are directly attributable to coach but...
you argue.
And I'm grasping for straws? Good try though!
I can't forget D'Antoni won 60+ games because you keep reminding me.
I would like to point out...
Shouldn't that mean he can do better than 50 loses per?
"Yesterday was history, tomorrows a mystery... blah blah,
you get it.
Ah... I love this technique
The one when you accuse someone of doing something you actually do.
Torre had talent but STILL LOST! Do YOU know why????
When you figure that out let me know. If you don't know baseball, my bad.
But then after I mistakenly assumed you did, do you write about it as if you know?
That was rhetorical as most of this thread is.
I simply mean to point out how the back and forth and countless threads are started to say the same shit- here's one here (lol).
But also I want to point out that while obviously we differ in opinion (KOL)
some can't find solace in the fact that remains; the future results will speak for themselves.
Why argue?
Why straddle the fence?
I believe...
D'Antoni was a mistake and should go. I hope we do, but I dont see him winning a championship or puting us in a better position to do so, with the way he is (system and all).
Lee is over-rated and will out price himself.
Gallo was a mistake, but I could live with him because he's cheap.
If I'm wrong on the stuff that we can measure, I'll admit it when it happens.
I can respect others opinions but it's hard without a logical explanation.
Not to offend but the above are who I refer to the great White hypes.
All three are exactly what I'm not looking for (no homo) to establish something with my team...
Defense.
On Seven Seconds or Less aka the Spread Pick & Roll and the NYK's:
http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2008/11/should-knicks-run-7-seconds-or-less.html
"I'm a firm believer in whatever system you run has to fit the players you have. The Spread PNR, requires that you have the kind of point guard that can read the defense and make smart instinctual decisions. The Knicks lack that at the moment"
You would think the coach would know this and pushed as hard for a well enough PG, but he settled for Duhon instead.
I guess he knows something we don't.
And, the system has been tweaked, I thought by watching that everyone realized the philosophy remained. O'well.
On arguing technique...
http://www.conroyhome.net/alan/Analyst/arguing.htm
"Be aware that these techniques are deeply flawed from a logical standpoint. But since arguments are inherently foolish, this is not a problem. If you ever want to turn a discussion into an argument, simply start following these suggestions."
Please refrain from doing this, either by your natural tendency or provocation.
We all can discuss D'Antoni, Gallo, and Lee...
we can't argue that we're (some of us) are Knick fans and
the results will speak for themselves.
By this time next year, we ALL should be looking forward to the Playoffs!
One.
In an attempt to merge threads and consolidate thoughts, this thread will cover the following issues that have led to differing opinions:
1. Firing / Supporting Mike D'Antoni.
2. Is Gallo over-rated?
3. Should we keep David Lee?
4. Arguing
The following are from recent posts from the threads dealing with these issues. Links to follow.
http://www.knicksonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7459
In response to me stating my opinion on why I believe D'Antoni was responsible (due to flaws in his system and his personality) for some losses this season, which I conclude leads me to think he's over-rated...
You thought? Haven't you run from the only two other debates we have had? (regrading N8 and Lee) Yea...that's what I thought...
No Trill I didn't run from anything. What I did do was offer a solution. We could just wait and let time tell. If I'm wrong I'll admit it. You neglected to take me up on my offer. Basically I said Lee is too limited and will demand too much $ to be a value to our rebuilding project.
While you and others try feverishly to post Lee's stats and recent accomplishments...
You also agree that Bosh would be a better fit if available AND admit "our talent" isn't that good- which is ACTUALLY SAYING WHAT I'M SAYING
yet you argue (i'll get to that later). If our team isn't that good then that includes Lee. or is he the exception?
On my request to not compare Barack Obama and bring politics into the situation dealing with D'Antoni.
notice the generality "people" and the tangents. Recall I stated D'Antoni's system is flawed imo and nothing about I expect him to...
It's an analogy and a strong one at that. People think a president can wave a magic wand and create jobs, undo poor practices and solve every structural problem instantly. Unemployment at 9.7%...blame Obama. Health care costs out of control...blame Obama. Still in Iraq...blame Obama. Nevermind what he inherited... etc etc
I'm guessing your point is to "blame" D'Antoni's predecessors for what he inherited?
Well again, you want to absolve a coach because he has nothing to work with, in your opinion.
Where you go wrong is...
YOU keep praising LEE and GALLO and D'Antoni but neglect to hold them accountable for failures. As I have pointed out it's a classic "Double standard". Along with another "double standard" I pointed out which was...
If you want to use "were void of talent" as an excuse for coach. then one can reasonably assume you supported keeping our last 4 coaches- since they were in the same situation. Your response to that later...
Again, comparing D'Antoni to Obama, when considering WHO the PRESIDENT and more specifically Obama really is, is a joke. And a subject YOU never heard me bring up nor do I wish to. Please refrain from putting words into mouths. Next...
You and the Dant haters believe the same thing. The Knicks are out of the playoffs...blame Dant. The Knicks have bad team chemistry...blame Dant. The Knicks can't play defense...blame Dant. You expect Dant to make a team with mediocre talent into a consistent winner. You expect he can take a team devoid of a superstar and make the playoffs. You expect he can take a team with no real center and no defensive presence and make them into a defensive team.
You put too much weight into what a coach can do just like many put too much weight into what a president can do all while ignoring the facts on the ground. Perfect analogy.
The fact remains D'Antoni has (probably have) 50 loses the two years he coached here. I (I believe) reasonably assumed IF D'Antoni were better our record would reflect this- is that wrong?
I would request you to show me where I said blame D'Antoni for the Knicks not making the playoffs or comparing him to Obama,
but I know you can't. One you say he's that good, next you say, but he can only do so much.
On what WINNING really means...
I say it's not always necessarily about the score, you say...
Actually it has everything to do with winning. That's a nice talking point to teach Little League children who are there to learn and have fun. It does not hold weight with professional athletes who are paid millions to perform a job.
So now their pay dictates what is acceptable as a win? O.K. so if I say "they, including D'Antoni are paid too much to lose like this" then you would still argue right? That's nonsense and just argumentative.
More on that later.
I guess the reason why some little leagues dont keep score isn't to teach the children about winning?
it's because the coaches, managers and administrators "dont get paid enough". SMH...
On the flawed system (again)...
There you go again talking about a system we have no used since the first week of the season. I explained this with great detail in the other debate about Lee that you decided to walk away from...
You're such an expert on the system. You seem to know it, in and out.
As an objective person I would think you realized EVERY system has weaknesses. I have listed what I felt are weakness including:
- taking quicker shots translates into more offensive opportunities for the opponent
- increased fatigue
- de-emphasizing defense
and requested you to show me YOUR criteria for rating a coach. You declined.
I also included D'Antoni's personality and lack of intangibles such as:
- leadership
- motivation
- communication
again, you neglected to address this.
The below link is from December 12th 2009. A full season and a month to change and adapt.
BTW, I assumed you understood the difference between "SYSTEM" and "PHILOSOPHY" and maybe I wasn't clear. Anyhow, his philosophy is flawed and thus affects the system.
I'll get into that later....
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/antoni_tweaks_offensive_strategy_zAKK8KmDcEKWzDQuocLQXK
NEW ORLEANS -- Mike D'Antoni, inventor of the "Seven Seconds or Less" offense, admits he has tinkered with his formula during the Knicks' surge, having slowed the attack.
"As long as it's 24 seconds or less," D'Antoni said jokingly before the Knicks won their fourth straight and fifth in six games in a comeback victory over the Hornets at New Orleans Arena.
D'Antoni said the dramatic change came after their franchise-worst 1-9 start, finally realizing the talent does not translate to speedball. When D'Antoni accepted the Knicks job before the 2008-09 season, there were questions if D'Antoni would adapt his system to the talent. It took him a while, but he's finally adjusted.
Once again good technique...
Over exaggeration mixed with a bit of agreement, all the while leading to another misleading statement: you are pinning everything on Dant.
No, I didn't.
That is a false statement not rooted in reality. Sure, a coach can make a mistake and cost us a game. Certainly a player can lose a close game. Certainly a player can miss an open shot. Certainly the opposing team has a say in who wins and who loses. It's not all about our coach every single close game we lost. Again you are pinning everything on Dant.
It's funny because you spent pages bashing David Lee but now blame everything on Dant. Lee is easily our best player yet you think he is overrated and just a role player. You can't have it both ways! You can't say our best player sucks and then blame the coach for everything.
Yes, I think Lee is just a role player and for his price and skill set I don't want him.
He's limited and partly responsible for where we are. I look forward to an upgrade. I said "people are talking about Bron and Bosh, or Bron and Wade"- no one is talking Bron and Lee.
That's why we cleared space for two, because Lee isn't good enough
at his asking price. Is that not obvious?
That's me not straddling on the fence, this is you...
Quote:
At an affordable price he's a role player, at 10-12 mil... he's invisible to me
This I agree with.
I left it at that...
now you talking about how I'm running...wtf?
and still arguing...
On my point about not fouling late in games. A D'Antoni decision that directly affected the outcome(s)...
I have seen them foul but agree they should do it more often. It's an oldschool approach and something many coaches no longer due.
You can't take a finger painting and turn it into a masterpiece. Dant is handed a bunch of players with limited talent. I would argue his 8 man rotation lead to the best ball we have seen in years. (late November to mid-January)
I agree he could be better with this but remember that our ball distributor is Duhon and we have a team of ISO players who all thik they are Kobe Bryant.
Kobe and Jordan can make even the worst coach look like a genius. Certainly Jackson doesn't draw up a play calling for a fadeway 3 pointer over two defenders at the buzzer. It's easy to call an ISO play for Kobe and let him go to work.
blah, blah, blah...
Now I must expect a Kobe or Jordan to believe a coach should do whatever to help the club? SMH...
I'm really wondering do you "know basketball" or "know how to play basketball"? I'm not so sure anymore, and further I'm starting to wonder why I even bother? Next...
BTW, a post on the SSOL system will follow, so we can all be on the same page as Trillion.
On my words regarding the lack of chemistry being attributable to coach...
The chemistry has been lacking for years...it's called losing. Dant shares the blame with all the million dollar adults who should be acting like...well adults making millions of dollars playing ball. Nate was immature and Hughes thinks he is the second coming of Jordan. They own just as much blame as Dant.
Wait...
are you agreeing with me again? Looks like D'Antoni might not be that good...lol
On my lack of development point and favoritism...
I have a 2 time MVP that would differ with you. Hill is raw and TD is a late round combo guard. This isn't 2k where you can just allocate skillpoints to make a player better.
I can agree with that but I think most coaches have their favorite players.
It's all about the players...Our zone D is not that bad and only gets exploited because we are undersized and don't have tenacious defenders.
You would think that you already understood that D'Antoni's profile and a byproduct of his offensive philosophy lacks defense and...
how Nash wasn't that bad prior to the Suns and...
you realized our D is and has been "that bad" and...
by undersized that directly reflects Lee (who you will say is playing out of position)and...
have realized that again, favoritism and rotations are directly attributable to coach but...
you argue.
LOL...system again. It's all the system! Put these guys in Phil Jackson's system and they won't be shit either. Nevermind the lack of players...it's the system!. Forget that Dant took the Suns from a sub .500 team to 60+ wins in each year he coached...nah it's his system.
And I'm grasping for straws? Good try though!
I can't forget D'Antoni won 60+ games because you keep reminding me.
I would like to point out...
Shouldn't that mean he can do better than 50 loses per?
"Yesterday was history, tomorrows a mystery... blah blah,
you get it.
WTF are you talking about? Putting words in my mouth? You need to stop.
I am not a baseball fan and even I know this is bunk. Torre had massive amounts of talent Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Clemens, Petite etc etc. The Yanks didn't win shit for years until they bought a new pitching staff. Let me guess...Giradi could have taken the Pirates and coached them to a championship...it had nothing to do with the talent...GTFOH.
Ah... I love this technique
The one when you accuse someone of doing something you actually do.
Torre had talent but STILL LOST! Do YOU know why????
When you figure that out let me know. If you don't know baseball, my bad.
But then after I mistakenly assumed you did, do you write about it as if you know?
That was rhetorical as most of this thread is.
I simply mean to point out how the back and forth and countless threads are started to say the same shit- here's one here (lol).
But also I want to point out that while obviously we differ in opinion (KOL)
some can't find solace in the fact that remains; the future results will speak for themselves.
Why argue?
Why straddle the fence?
I believe...
D'Antoni was a mistake and should go. I hope we do, but I dont see him winning a championship or puting us in a better position to do so, with the way he is (system and all).
Lee is over-rated and will out price himself.
Gallo was a mistake, but I could live with him because he's cheap.
If I'm wrong on the stuff that we can measure, I'll admit it when it happens.
I can respect others opinions but it's hard without a logical explanation.
Not to offend but the above are who I refer to the great White hypes.
All three are exactly what I'm not looking for (no homo) to establish something with my team...
Defense.
On Seven Seconds or Less aka the Spread Pick & Roll and the NYK's:
http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2008/11/should-knicks-run-7-seconds-or-less.html
"I'm a firm believer in whatever system you run has to fit the players you have. The Spread PNR, requires that you have the kind of point guard that can read the defense and make smart instinctual decisions. The Knicks lack that at the moment"
You would think the coach would know this and pushed as hard for a well enough PG, but he settled for Duhon instead.
I guess he knows something we don't.
And, the system has been tweaked, I thought by watching that everyone realized the philosophy remained. O'well.
On arguing technique...
http://www.conroyhome.net/alan/Analyst/arguing.htm
"Be aware that these techniques are deeply flawed from a logical standpoint. But since arguments are inherently foolish, this is not a problem. If you ever want to turn a discussion into an argument, simply start following these suggestions."
Please refrain from doing this, either by your natural tendency or provocation.
We all can discuss D'Antoni, Gallo, and Lee...
we can't argue that we're (some of us) are Knick fans and
the results will speak for themselves.
By this time next year, we ALL should be looking forward to the Playoffs!
One.