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Thread: False religion on it's last legs.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    I could see from your perspective why you would think so off hand. But a simple look into bible would reveal the truth. At some point in time, there had to had been one religion. If you trace back to before sin, there was one religion. Obviously, there is a correct way to worship God, which would make it true, and an incorrect way to worship God, false.
    You find truth in books and I find truth in life. I formulate my opinions and beliefs off of my experience not some book written by man thousands of years ago. I do not need the threat of damnation or the reward of eternal bliss to be a good person. Our values are inherent and developed out of a hunter/gatherer society long before man codified those ideas in books.

    Have you ever played the game Operator as a kid? It's the game where kids sit in a big circle and one person whispers a message that is passed in secret from kid to kid. By the time the message gets to the end of the circle it only vaguely resembles the original message. Now take that concept and add politics, different languages and several thousand years and you begin to understand how flawed it is to put ones faith in a book. A book that has been edited, rewritten and translated thousands of times. Entire gospels, chapters and verses completely erased from existence depending on what pope, emperor or king was in power.

    Do you really think if there is a God, he would agree with every form of worship?
    Yes. I believe IF there were a god, an all powerful, all knowing supreme being he/she/it would not be so insecure as to care how one would go about showing respect or worship. Nor do I think god is so needy that he needs humans worshiping him at all. Further an all knowing being knows what is in your heart and does not need you to manifest your feelings outwardly. Praying and religion is for human beings, not god. According to your belief God knows everything that has happened and what will happen so why would one need to prove anything?

    More specifically, I believe if there were a god that just being a good person is enough and one is free to worship (or not) any way they chose. I for one want no part in a supreme dictator that controls our every action and judges us not on our hearts but on what rituals we follow.

    Could you honestly see the many religions on earth all of a sudden being cohesive in heaven, if they were actually going? Or would there be Jihad on the Christians, in heaven?
    The concept that there is some eternal magical place we all go after we die is laughable. Especially a place where we retain our memories and bring the baggage of the physical world with us. NO, I am fairly confident none of us will be sitting on a cloud strumming a gold harp arguing over which religion is best.

    Or would the God of the bible all of a sudden tolerate adultery, or homosexuality?
    Well, the god of the bible does not exist and it is proven by all the flaws and mistakes in nature. Why would a perfect being like god have so many failures? Stars, planets and galaxies that fail to form. Babies born with deformities and genetic defects. etc etc

    Further homosexuality exists in nature not just in humans. Under your belief, god created everything we see including homosexuality. Since homosexuality is not just a human manifestation one can safely conclude that it is not some "test" for humans. SO if there were a god I am sure he would accept homosexuals as he does all his other creations.

    Even if I were not religious, I still would believe in order. And there is no way a supreme being would allow such a lack of order, and call it worship. Good thing I don't have to speculate.
    Yet this supreme being tolerates it every day on earth. God does not need us to walk the path or test us when he knows everything we will ever do or think. Religion is so flawed and easy to pick apart.

    You are entitled to your beliefs and I don't begrudge you for your religion. I take offense to anyone person or doctrine claiming they know the real way to god. The truth is, none of us know anything but what another flawed human being told us. One can be a good person and follow any religion or even no religion at all. Religion is a crutch to many who are looking for answers and nothing more. There are too many contradictions and false certitude in religious dogma for me personally to believe in any one god or book.

    I could cling to the Old Testament, the original book and it's warnings about fake religions and false prophets to totally discount every religion that has come since. (including JW and other forms of Christianity) The truth is people pick and chose what parts they believe and what parts they dismiss. You are no better than the radical Muslim that believes all infidels are wrong and must be converted to Islam or suffer the fate of a punitive, intolerant supreme being.
    Last edited by TR1LL10N; Mar 11, 2010 at 09:08.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    I'm just gonna say that there is not a group on earth who follow the Christ more closely than Jw's. Even Jesus said many will acknowledge him as Lord, but he will turn them away. Meaning that there will be many professed followers of his, that are not truly following him. He says those who do ,NOT HIS WILL, but the will of his Father, will be saved. (Mat chap 7)

    Only Jehovah's witnesses Acknowledge Jesus Father as the only true God. Just as Jesus did in John 17:3. If Jesus is the way, and only one group of people truly follow him, why then should this group shrink back, when they are truly the one's following the Christ?

    There is only one group of true Christians on earth. And again, not because I say so, but because the Bible's description of a true Christian only fits JW's. Can't make this stuff up.
    I would think Paul would disagree with you. Hopefully he will debate you.

    The JWs have their own version of the bible. Different from Paul's and every other christian's version. In your version, there have been changes made to make it seem as though Jesus was not the lord. There are many instances in the real bible that state Jesus as the lord. But I'm sure Paul would like to take this up with you.

    Also, you claim your religion is the only true religion. Interesting enough, devout followers of other religions believe the same thing. And have just as much evidence to support their claims as well.

    How much have you studied Hinduism? What about Islam? What is your knowledge of these religions to make such a claim that they are incorrect?

    Prove, without doubt, that these religions are false. Prove it based on your intimate knowledge of these religions, not by your knowledge of the bible.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    You find truth in books and I find truth in life. I formulate my opinions and beliefs off of my experience not some book written by man thousands of years ago. I do not need the threat of damnation or the reward of eternal bliss to be a good person. Our values are inherent and developed out of a hunter/gatherer society long before man codified those ideas in books.

    Have you ever played the game Operator as a kid? It's the game where kids sit in a big circle and one person whispers a message that is passed in secret from kid to kid. By the time the message gets to the end of the circle it only vaguely resembles the original message. Now take that concept and add politics, different languages and several thousand years and you begin to understand how flawed it is to put ones faith in a book. A book that has been edited, rewritten and translated thousands of times. Entire gospels, chapters and verses completely erased from existence depending on what pope, emperor or king was in power.
    There is less proof of Hunter gatherer's existing hundreds of thousands of years ago, than anything in the Bible. You say I believe in books, you believe in life. Well last i checked, the bible writers were just as human as you and I. We're not exactly speaking humpty dumpty here. Real people, real events that can be proven to have happened. I'm taking Moses word over science's theory of these so called hunter gatherer's any day. He at least can be absolutely without a doubt, proven to have lived.

    Secondly, the Bible is called the word of God. While written by many different men, in different era's and places, somehow, it manages to be harmonious and factual in real time events. some of the time, the specific writer was not even made to understand the meaning of what he was writing (chk the book of Daniel) So while men wrote it, does not mean it stems from them. Be no different from a writer being inspired to tell you're story. They pen it, but it's the book of your story. So the written by man thing pretty much holds no weight. It's just an excuse to ignore what's real.

    Why do I say? Because there is no way these people penning this stuff would be able to know for sure what would take place long after they died unless someone with insight to future times was behind what was written. For example, the Isaiah passage i put up last. Chapter 2 starting in verse 2. How could Isaiah be able to control that prophecy from his grave? How is it that it has come to pass, exactly how it says it would? How did he know? He didn't. Jehovah did. So that is why I take this "book" as truth, because it's the only one with prophecy on earth. And since it only applies to one specific group, and there is a specific group of people in our times that have streamed to worship Jehovah, and they are made of of all nations and tongues, and they are taught Jehovah's ways by studying his word and living them, and they, unlike any other form of Christianity, will not lift up sword against any other people or nation, therefore not learning war anymore, I'd have to say that whoever inspired Isaiah to write this stuff, must know what they hell they are talking about.

    And I don't need a super education to see that. I can just use my eyes and common sense.



    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Yes. I believe IF there were a god, an all powerful, all knowing supreme being he/she/it would not be so insecure as to care how one would go about showing respect or worship. Nor do I think god is so needy that he needs humans worshiping him at all. Further an all knowing being knows what is in your heart and does not need you to manifest your feelings outwardly. Praying and religion is for human beings, not god. According to your belief God knows everything that has happened and what will happen so why would one need to prove anything?
    The problem with that theory is that God created us in his image. And his main attribute is love. Therefore, if he loves, he made us with the ability to love. To be able to love, you have to have free will. One shows a loving attitude because he wants to, not out of compulsion. Jehovah wants us to show him love. Being loving is not doing whatever you wish to a person and they just accept it on your terms. So in essence, you must be saying that God should not care if the humans he made in his image, which is love, shows love. And that's crazy.

    No God does not need us. But out of love he created us. I'm thankful. So I try to show it, by returning it as best I can. One who says, i'll do what i want, he don't need me, he's all supreme and he can deal with whatever. That is an improper viewpoint according to him, and as the creator, guess what? He has the right to set the standard!!!! Just like you have the right to set the standard in your household.

    Prayer is the direct way to speak to God. it is for both parties. Not just human. If you do not pray to God, you cannot posiibly have a relationship with him. Be no different than you not speaking to your parents at all, but saying you know and love them. That would be foolish.

    And the Bible says that God is all knowing. But that does not mean that he chooses to press fast forward or rewind, or pause every chance he gets. Who's to say he does not at times just let it play? Hmmmm.



    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    More specifically, I believe if there were a god that just being a good person is enough and one is free to worship (or not) any way they chose. I for one want no part in a supreme dictator that controls our every action and judges us not on our hearts but on what rituals we follow.
    If God wanted to control humans, he would have made them robots. he would have stopped Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit. You cannot show love without free will. God wants humans to love him because they want to. Especially since his laws and regulations ONLY HELP THE HUMAN FAMILY AVOID CALAMITY!!!!!!!!!!!

    If we don't commit adultery, does that hurt or help the human race? If we don't lie, help or hurt? Steal? Murder? Take care of the earth? All of these things God warns us about. Newsflash, God is doing ok in heaven. We are suffering, because we call God looking out for us, him being a dictator. No wonder the world is jacked up! We got it backwards!! We're smarter than God!!!

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    The concept that there is some eternal magical place we all go after we die is laughable. Especially a place where we retain our memories and bring the baggage of the physical world with us. NO, I am fairly confident none of us will be sitting on a cloud strumming a gold harp arguing over which religion is best.
    Jesus did resurrect Lazarus and a couple others in front of many witnesses(even his enemies). So you're already wrong, you can live again after you die, if Jehovah's permits it. in fact, he plans to bring billions of people back to life, in conditions he set up for Adam and Eve, just to show how he originally intended for mankind to live. And yes, they will have their memories, for the purpose to deciphering which way of life to choose. One apart from God in a wicked world (now) And one with God, and not a trace of wickedness around(new system)


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Well, the god of the bible does not exist and it is proven by all the flaws and mistakes in nature. Why would a perfect being like god have so many failures? Stars, planets and galaxies that fail to form. Babies born with deformities and genetic defects. etc etc

    Further homosexuality exists in nature not just in humans. Under your belief, god created everything we see including homosexuality. Since homosexuality is not just a human manifestation one can safely conclude that it is not some "test" for humans. SO if there were a god I am sure he would accept homosexuals as he does all his other creations.
    I don't know enough about stars and planets, to be honest. It bored me to death in school, lol! But I will venture to say this. Science has done a remarkable job of explaining seemingly unexplainable things. Yet, they are constantly still learning about things they think they've figured out. Who's to say that does not apply to these stars and planets?

    As far as Human deficiencies, simple answer, we're all born in sin. Which means we're sick. God intended for the human family to never die. We die because sin is a disease. It leads to genetic deformities and decay, and sickness and death. That is the penalty for sin. But Jehovah, out of his kindheartedness, has remedied the situation, through his Son, Christ Jesus. This is why Jesus performed such miracles as stopping the wind storm while walking on water, and bringing the dead back to life. If he can do that on a small scale, certainly he can do it on a grand scale. If you can stop a raging windstorm while walking on water, you can prevent natural disasters. If you can bring one dead person back to life, why not billions? If you can feed a crowd of thousands with 3 fish, And had some left over, you certainly can find a way to feed billions. No more hunger, no more death, no more worries of earthquakes and Tsunami's. Nice.



    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Yet this supreme being tolerates it every day on earth. God does not need us to walk the path or test us when he knows everything we will ever do or think. Religion is so flawed and easy to pick apart.

    You are entitled to your beliefs and I don't begrudge you for your religion. I take offense to anyone person or doctrine claiming they know the real way to god. The truth is, none of us know anything but what another flawed human being told us. One can be a good person and follow any religion or even no religion at all. Religion is a crutch to many who are looking for answers and nothing more. There are too many contradictions and false certitude in religious dogma for me personally to believe in any one god or book.
    God tolerates this world begrudgingly, I may add, for very good reason. It is to prove who has the right to rule, Mankind apart from God, or God. Man has failed miserably trying to live apart from the evil dictator, who wants us to Love him and each other and avoid calamity. And even if he does know, he has allowed us to know his plans, which will help us to choose to side with, or against him in this vital issue.

    Good to humans is far beneath what is good to God. His standards are far better than ours. And they are for our benefit. What is good unless it's to our benefit to live? So if it's not as good as god intended for us, it will probably hurt us. So how can good apart from God, really be good?

    There are no contradictions with Jehovah. There is, however, lack of understand. But only a humble person would acknowledge what they don't know or understand. That is precisely the person Jehovah looks for. Which explains why the world as a whole does not accept him, because the world lacks humility and love. Two things that Jehovah has in abundance more than any living creature in existence.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I could cling to the Old Testament, the original book and it's warnings about fake religions and false prophets to totally discount every religion that has come since. (including JW and other forms of Christianity) The truth is people pick and chose what parts they believe and what parts they dismiss. You are no better than the radical Muslim that believes all infidels are wrong and must be converted to Islam or suffer the fate of a punitive, intolerant supreme being.
    Actually you cannot do such a thing, since the Bible is meant, like every other book, to be read in it's entirety. You won't read half of any other book, and try to tell a person who has not read it the whole story, would you? That being said, If one reads Hebrews chapters 11 and 12, they would then have to gather that Jehovah has had his witnesses on earth, as early as Abel!! So it is a laughable thing to say Jehovah's witnesses are a new, radical faith, when God's word says they have been around on earth long before the Jews became God's chosen people, and Christians afterward!

    And it may be true that other Christian faiths pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe and dismiss, but Jehovah's witnesses believe in it ALL!!! We do not pick and choose which parts fit us, which is the reason why our form of worship is acceptable to God, because we choose to allow his word to regulate our lives, And do not stray away from it, or bend it for our purposes!!! This is how come he had Isaiah pen what he did in chapter 2, because he knew he would restore true worship of him to stand out for the world to see! His very name, Jehovah, means "He who causes to become" In Hebrew. How could he live up to that name if he can't establish pure worship from the creatures he created? Will never happen.

    And lastly, seriously, The last religious group on earth you're worried about is Jehovah's witnesses. Let's be real. Every other faith will willingly join their armies to go to war against other nations, even those in the same faith. Save Jehovah's witnesses. You really wanna compare us to radical Jihadist's? C'mon Son!

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I would think Paul would disagree with you. Hopefully he will debate you.
    I will discuss anything with him rationally. Especially the Bible. But he's already called us stupid. So I don't see how that could be.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    The JWs have their own version of the bible. Different from Paul's and every other christian's version. In your version, there have been changes made to make it seem as though Jesus was not the lord. There are many instances in the real bible that state Jesus as the lord. But I'm sure Paul would like to take this up with you.
    You're getting very weak at this. Clearly not your forte. LOL! I sound like Walt Clyde!

    Jehovah's witnesses first and foremost, acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Since he is the Christ, which means "anointed one of God". If God anointed him, Christ, that must mean God has more power. If not, then he would not need to be anointed, for he is God. Make sense? Therefore, one who believes Jesus being Lord, makes his God, or on par, clearly misunderstands what the word "Christ" really means. Christ is not his last name, it is a title that he bears showing authority bestowed upon him.

    So yes, Jesus IS LORD, HE IS CHRIST, HE is Messiah! He however, is not God almighty, and NEVER CLAIMED TO BE. Therefore, in order for anyone to disprove this, they must show where Jesus in fact says he is God. And i've read TONS of versions of the Bible and NEVER seen him say such a thing in any. I have, however seen him say HE HAS A GOD.

    By the way, stop it with the weak argument "we have our own Bible". As if the whole Bible was changed for our doctrine. That's nonsense. JW's will use any Bible in the existence at anytime to show Bible truths. In fact, we used the vaunted KJ Bible for decades before the NWT was produced.

    And a little tidbit about these other Bibles. You gripe about our updated version, which is in modern english, making it easier to understand, But also, it has properly restored the name of the author in places it is left out in these so called "real Bibles" you speak of. Why does the tetragrammaten appear over thousands of times on the torah, but these "real bibles" refuse to put God's name where it belongs when they translate it? Ask about that sometime. Ask why these "real bibles" Translate the word Sheol and haides, which both mean grave in their respective languages, to Pit, grave, hell in their versions?

    But even with those discrepancies, if the theme of the Bible is understood, the bible, ANY BIBLE, is easy to follow.


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Also, you claim your religion is the only true religion. Interesting enough, devout followers of other religions believe the same thing. And have just as much evidence to support their claims as well.

    How much have you studied Hinduism? What about Islam? What is your knowledge of these religions to make such a claim that they are incorrect?

    Prove, without doubt, that these religions are false. Prove it based on your intimate knowledge of these religions, not by your knowledge of the bible.
    Actually, they do not have just as much evidence. They have belief, which is different than proof.

    No matter what anyone says, if you look at Isaiah chapter 2 and it speaks of the separation between true worship of God vs worship of false Gods, Only one group around fits the bill. No matter how much you wanna jump up and down and stomp your feet. That's evidence.

  5. #20
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    There is less proof of Hunter gatherer's existing hundreds of thousands of years ago, than anything in the Bible.
    That is just not true. Even if it was it does not change my point that our values are inherent to being human and we do not need religion or a supreme being in order to be good.

    Well last i checked, the bible writers were just as human as you and I.
    Correct and neither you nor I are infallible. Why do you willingly accept a book as absolute truth when you yourself admit it was written by many men over a long period of time?

    Real people, real events that can be proven to have happened.
    So prove it. All you have is a book of stories, you have no proof, you have faith. Moses may have existed but no one can prove he spoke to a burning bush, split the red sea or wrote the word of God on a stone tablet.

    Secondly, the Bible is called the word of God. While written by many different men, in different era's and places, somehow, it manages to be harmonious and factual in real time events. some of the time, the specific writer was not even made to understand the meaning of what he was writing (chk the book of Daniel) So while men wrote it, does not mean it stems from them. Be no different from a writer being inspired to tell you're story. They pen it, but it's the book of your story. So the written by man thing pretty much holds no weight. It's just an excuse to ignore what's real.
    More proof that the book is man made and should not be accepted as absolute truth.

    Why do I say? Because there is no way these people penning this stuff would be able to know for sure what would take place long after they died unless someone with insight to future times was behind what was written.
    Really? So why is there no mention of electricity in the bible if it was meant to be timeless? Certainly god would have included a moral story of the implications of nuclear weapons...right? What about the moral implications of abortion, genetic engineering or the changing of the environment? If the book was indeed mmade by god and meant to be timeless certainly they would make mention of all these new moral and societal issues that the modern world grapples with. Instead we try jamming a round peg in a square hole. We apply stories in the bible to modern day events but they are not exact. Further the bible goes into specifics about events of that time.

    The bible is clearly shown to be fallible when it gets the age of the earth wrong by a few billion years or asserts dinosaurs walked the earth with man. Before you say that God has a different concept on the length of a day or year remember there are countless other references to the length of a day in the bible that are accurate. Jesus rose after three literal days according to your beliefs so you cannot say that the bible uses some mysterious unit of measurement that in not quantifiable by us mere mortals.

    Why do I say? Because there is no way these people penning this stuff would be able to know for sure what would take place long after they died unless someone with insight to future times was behind what was written. For example, the Isaiah passage i put up last. Chapter 2 starting in verse 2. How could Isaiah be able to control that prophecy from his grave? How is it that it has come to pass, exactly how it says it would? How did he know? He didn't. Jehovah did. So that is why I take this "book" as truth, because it's the only one with prophecy on earth. And since it only applies to one specific group, and there is a specific group of people in our times that have streamed to worship Jehovah, and they are made of of all nations and tongues, and they are taught Jehovah's ways by studying his word and living them, and they, unlike any other form of Christianity, will not lift up sword against any other people or nation, therefore not learning war anymore, I'd have to say that whoever inspired Isaiah to write this stuff, must know what they hell they are talking about.
    You make arguments predicated on the teachings in a book you believe and state them as fact. You cannot argue the validity of the stories by using the stories as examples of record.

    The problem with that theory is that God created us in his image. And his main attribute is love. Therefore, if he loves, he made us with the ability to love. To be able to love, you have to have free will. One shows a loving attitude because he wants to, not out of compulsion. Jehovah wants us to show him love. Being loving is not doing whatever you wish to a person and they just accept it on your terms. So in essence, you must be saying that God should not care if the humans he made in his image, which is love, shows love. And that's crazy.
    This did not address my point at all. In essence we do not have free will since god already knows exactly what we are going to do. Why would one need to walk the path to prove anything if god is all knowing?

    No God does not need us. But out of love he created us. I'm thankful. So I try to show it, by returning it as best I can. One who says, i'll do what i want, he don't need me, he's all supreme and he can deal with whatever. That is an improper viewpoint according to him, and as the creator, guess what? He has the right to set the standard!!!! Just like you have the right to set the standard in your household.
    You can love who you want and chose to express that love how you see fit. The problem comes with the arrogance that your choice and beliefs are somehow the only correct or true beliefs. That arrogance and intolerance would certainly be frowned on by the very god you chose to believe in.

    You are assuming that the man made book which you derive these standards from is somehow correct and divinely inspired. Your whole argument will always whittle down to faith because at its root there is no truth. There is no proof of anything other than what you wish to believe.

    Prayer is the direct way to speak to God. it is for both parties. Not just human. If you do not pray to God, you cannot posiibly have a relationship with him. Be no different than you not speaking to your parents at all, but saying you know and love them. That would be foolish.
    Wrong. God is supposedly all knowing so why would he need you to pray in order to know what is in your heart? Praying is for humans...its a comfort food for the masses.

    And the Bible says that God is all knowing. But that does not mean that he chooses to press fast forward or rewind, or pause every chance he gets. Who's to say he does not at times just let it play? Hmmmm.
    To a supreme being there is no past or future...there just is. Even science has proven that time is not linear and is relative. The 3 day life span of a fruit fly may seem like a 100 years. God does not nbeed to pause, fast forward or rewind anything...he just knows everything all at once.

    If God wanted to control humans, he would have made them robots. he would have stopped Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit. You cannot show love without free will. God wants humans to love him because they want to. Especially since his laws and regulations ONLY HELP THE HUMAN FAMILY AVOID CALAMITY!!!!!!!!!!!
    So it's all a test yet he already knows all the answers...

    If we don't commit adultery, does that hurt or help the human race? If we don't lie, help or hurt? Steal? Murder? Take care of the earth? All of these things God warns us about. Newsflash, God is doing ok in heaven. We are suffering, because we call God looking out for us, him being a dictator. No wonder the world is jacked up! We got it backwards!! We're smarter than God!!!
    We do not need a god or higher power to understand why stealing or adultery is wrong. Further you have no idea "how god is doing". I am not suffering...speak for yourself.

    Jesus did resurrect Lazarus and a couple others in front of many witnesses(even his enemies). So you're already wrong, you can live again after you die, if Jehovah's permits it. in fact, he plans to bring billions of people back to life, in conditions he set up for Adam and Eve, just to show how he originally intended for mankind to live. And yes, they will have their memories, for the purpose to deciphering which way of life to choose. One apart from God in a wicked world (now) And one with God, and not a trace of wickedness around(new system)
    And people have seen the lochness moster, UFO's and bigfoot. Sorry but humans make **** up all the time. Just because a human wrote something 2000 years ago does not mean it is a correct portrayal of events. Why chose to believe that and not the story of Zeus and Hercules?

    The fact that you speak with such certitude as if you know exactly what heaven is like and why things are the way they are is pretty crazy. I am willing to admit, I don't know what happens. What I do know is that there is ZERO evidence to backup your claims.

    I don't know enough about stars and planets, to be honest. It bored me to death in school, lol! But I will venture to say this. Science has done a remarkable job of explaining seemingly unexplainable things. Yet, they are constantly still learning about things they think they've figured out. Who's to say that does not apply to these stars and planets?
    This misses the point. Nature is brutal and imperfect even when man is not involved. A perfect being would not fail at forming stars or galaxies. We are a tiny spec in a near infinite universe during a small blip in time yet your arrogance would suggest that the world around you was created by a supreme being just for us. We are nothing, we are fruitflies living in a fraction of a second. We are microscopic compared to stars that are thousands of times bigger than our sun. We are nothing in this universe and to suggest we are made in gods image is an insult to any higher organism that may be out in the universe.

    God tolerates this world begrudgingly, I may add, for very good reason. It is to prove who has the right to rule, Mankind apart from God, or God. Man has failed miserably trying to live apart from the evil dictator, who wants us to Love him and each other and avoid calamity. And even if he does know, he has allowed us to know his plans, which will help us to choose to side with, or against him in this vital issue.
    Again, why would we have to prove anything to an all knowing being who simultaneously experiences everything at once?

    There are no contradictions with Jehovah. There is, however, lack of understand. But only a humble person would acknowledge what they don't know or understand.
    The irony of such a statement coming form someone who claims to know what "true" religion is and how best to have a relationship with god. What you don't understand you explain with faith and false certitude.

    Actually you cannot do such a thing, since the Bible is meant, like every other book, to be read in it's entirety. You won't read half of any other book, and try to tell a person who has not read it the whole story, would you? That being said, If one reads Hebrews chapters 11 and 12, they would then have to gather that Jehovah has had his witnesses on earth, as early as Abel!! So it is a laughable thing to say Jehovah's witnesses are a new, radical faith, when God's word says they have been around on earth long before the Jews became God's chosen people, and Christians afterward!
    How could they be around before Abraham? How could they bare witness to Jesus when he came to earth thousands of years after the old testament? How could they be here before the Jews who first prayed to the God of Abraham and created the OT? The old testament makes no mention of Jesus or JW. It even goes so far as to say when the messiah does come that the world ends. ...period. If you want to read the entire book and take it literally how could Jesus be the messiah if his coming did not bring forth the end times? The OT is clear on this.

    ehovah's Witnesses is a [Only registered and activated users can see links. ],[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The religion reports worldwide membership of over 7 million adherents involved in [Only registered and activated users can see links. ];[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] they report convention attendance of over 12 million, and annual [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] attendance of over 18 million.[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] They are directed by a [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] of [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] which exercises authority on all doctrinal matters. Witnesses base their beliefs on the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], and prefer their own literal, conservative translation, the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The group emerged from the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ],[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] founded in the late [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] by [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], with the formation of [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. Following a schism in the movement, the branch that maintained control of the Society underwent significant organizational changes, bringing its authority structure and methods of evangelism under centralized control.[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The name Jehovah's witnesses, based on [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] 43:10-12, was adopted in 1931.


    Nope, you are making crap up. JW is a reltively new sect of Christianity. Christianity came several thousand years after Judiasim.


    And lastly, seriously, The last religious group on earth you're worried about is Jehovah's witnesses. Let's be real. Every other faith will willingly join their armies to go to war against other nations, even those in the same faith. Save Jehovah's witnesses. You really wanna compare us to radical Jihadist's? C'mon Son!
    I am not worried about JW and only compare them to radical Muslims because you both claim to be the true religion and actively try to convert people.



    BTW...You completely dodged my point that homosexuality exists in nature and is not just a man made phenomenon.
    Last edited by TR1LL10N; Mar 11, 2010 at 13:30.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    You're getting very weak at this. Clearly not your forte. LOL! I sound like Walt Clyde!

    Jehovah's witnesses first and foremost, acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Since he is the Christ, which means "anointed one of God". If God anointed him, Christ, that must mean God has more power. If not, then he would not need to be anointed, for he is God. Make sense? Therefore, one who believes Jesus being Lord, makes his God, or on par, clearly misunderstands what the word "Christ" really means. Christ is not his last name, it is a title that he bears showing authority bestowed upon him.

    So yes, Jesus IS LORD, HE IS CHRIST, HE is Messiah! He however, is not God almighty, and NEVER CLAIMED TO BE. Therefore, in order for anyone to disprove this, they must show where Jesus in fact says he is God. And i've read TONS of versions of the Bible and NEVER seen him say such a thing in any. I have, however seen him say HE HAS A GOD.

    By the way, stop it with the weak argument "we have our own Bible". As if the whole Bible was changed for our doctrine. That's nonsense. JW's will use any Bible in the existence at anytime to show Bible truths. In fact, we used the vaunted KJ Bible for decades before the NWT was produced.

    And a little tidbit about these other Bibles. You gripe about our updated version, which is in modern english, making it easier to understand, But also, it has properly restored the name of the author in places it is left out in these so called "real Bibles" you speak of. Why does the tetragrammaten appear over thousands of times on the torah, but these "real bibles" refuse to put God's name where it belongs when they translate it? Ask about that sometime. Ask why these "real bibles" Translate the word Sheol and haides, which both mean grave in their respective languages, to Pit, grave, hell in their versions?

    But even with those discrepancies, if the theme of the Bible is understood, the bible, ANY BIBLE, is easy to follow.
    I was hoping Paul would take up this argument since it is his religion. I really feel no need to defend his religion. It all is a bunch of hogwash but could you please explain again how someone can be Lord but not be God? Since you claim Jesus is Lord but not God, there seem to be many passages in the bible where God states "I am the Lord" or "I am the Lord, thy God".

    For example Isaiah 43:

    that I alone am God.
    I have always been God;
    there can be no others.
    11I alone am the LORD;


    I might be missing it, which wouldn't surprise me. I don't see the distinction between Lord and God.


    Also in Isaiah 9:

    For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


    Doesn't the bible say here to call Jesus Mighty God?


    Also, in John 10, Jesus claims that he and God are one. The Jews are about to stone him to death for claiming he is God. How come Jesus does not deny that he is claiming to be God?

    And in John 1, Jesus is called the Word and the Word is called God.

    1In the beginning was the one
    who is called the Word.

    The Word was with God

    and was truly God.

    2From the very beginning

    the Word was with God.

    3And with this Word,

    God created all things.

    Nothing was made

    without the Word.

    Everything that was created

    4received its life from him,

    and his life gave light

    to everyone.

    5The light keeps shining

    in the dark,

    and darkness has never

    put it out. [a] 6God sent a man named John,

    7who came to tell

    about the light

    and to lead all people

    to have faith.

    8John wasn't that light.

    He came only to tell

    about the light.

    9The true light that shines

    on everyone

    was coming into the world.

    10The Word was in the world,

    but no one knew him,

    though God had made the world

    with his Word.

    11 He came into his own world,

    but his own nation

    did not welcome him.

    12Yet some people accepted him

    and put their faith in him.

    So he gave them the right

    to be the children of God.

    13They were not God's children

    by nature

    or because

    of any human desires.

    God himself was the one

    who made them his children.

    14 The Word became

    a human being


    and lived here with us.

    We saw his true glory,

    the glory of the only Son

    of the Father.

    From him all the kindness

    and all the truth of God

    have come down to us.

    15John spoke about him and shouted, "This is the one I told you would come! He is greater than I am, because he was alive before I was born."

    16Because of all that the Son is, we have been given one blessing after another. [b] 17The Law was given by Moses, but Jesus Christ brought us undeserved kindness and truth. 18No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.



    I don't know. I will not claim to be the greatest interpreter of the bible as you do, but it seems rather clear that Jesus is God. And God, Lord, Jesus, Word, or whatever, are all the same.



    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Actually, they do not have just as much evidence. They have belief, which is different than proof.

    No matter what anyone says, if you look at Isaiah chapter 2 and it speaks of the separation between true worship of God vs worship of false Gods, Only one group around fits the bill. No matter how much you wanna jump up and down and stomp your feet. That's evidence.
    Wait, you are saying your book says that others will follow other books, therefore that is evidence?? The Koran says the same thing.

    And you're saying that a book tells us what to do and you are doing what the book tells you to do, so therefore that is evidence for it being true?? Huh?!? That is the worst circular logic I have ever seen. With this logic, the Koran tells muslims to slay the infidels. Radical muslims are slaying the infedels. Therefore, that is evidence for the Koran as truth and God's word. ?!?!?!?

    The other religions have just as much evidence as your religion. Again, I ask you to disprove the other religions.

    Since you come out and say your religion is the only true religion, the onus is on you to disprove the other religions. How come you can't disprove the other religions?

    Seems odd to me that someone would say I am right and everybody else is wrong and not have any evidence to refute the other side's arguments.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Mar 11, 2010 at 18:28.

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    LJ,

    I agree with most of what you wrote but need to make one clarification. The Jews were not responsible for Jesus' death or crucifixion. Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. Christianity came after his death so saying "Jews were going to stone him" is like saying Jesus was going to stone himself. Or saying Christians are responsible for the Holocaust because many Nazi's were Christian.

    The Romans were the ones responsible for his death, specifically Pontius Pilate. The Jews were under occupation of the Romans so yes, some Jews in authority were complicit with his death but the Jews had no law or tradition of crucifixion. I make mention of this because often people like to justify anti-semitism by this inaccurate accounting of history. Jews as a people are no more responsible for Jesus' death than you or I are responsible for the execution of a deathrow inmate.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    LJ,

    I agree with most of what you wrote but need to make one clarification. The Jews were not responsible for Jesus' death or crucifixion. Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. Christianity came after his death so saying "Jews were going to stone him" is like saying Jesus was going to stone himself. Or saying Christians are responsible for the Holocaust because many Nazi's were Christian.

    The Romans were the ones responsible for his death, specifically Pontius Pilate. The Jews were under occupation of the Romans so yes, some Jews in authority were complicit with his death but the Jews had no law or tradition of crucifixion. I make mention of this because often people like to justify anti-semitism by this inaccurate accounting of history. Jews as a people are no more responsible for Jesus' death than you or I are responsible for the execution of a deathrow inmate.
    Just quoting the bible directly Trill.

    John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Just quoting the bible directly Trill.

    John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
    Well chalk it up to the many fallacies contained in that book.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    That is just not true. Even if it was it does not change my point that our values are inherent to being human and we do not need religion or a supreme being in order to be good.
    Hunter gatherer's did not exist. Adam was the first man. And he was a lot smarter than a hunter gatherer.

    And what you just said, is what Satan basically implied to Eve, man does not need God. Thousands of years later, man without God has been an epic fail. All humans do is live in strife and turmoil, with a few good moments, then you die. Great stuff. No form of Government, or leadership has helped. But you're right, man is good, and do not need God's guidance. Because the track record of the goodness of man is so outstanding!

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Correct and neither you nor I are infallible. Why do you willingly accept a book as absolute truth when you yourself admit it was written by many men over a long period of time?
    I have said, repeatedly, Biblical prophecy is the main reason I believe the Bible is the word of God. There is no way the writers could have maneuvered in any way shape or form the future events it speaks of. Impossible. Therefore, someone with intimate knowledge of future events must be behind the inspired writers words. Correct! Man is infallible, which what makes prophecy so outstanding! It cannot come from any infallible man.


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    So prove it. All you have is a book of stories, you have no proof, you have faith. Moses may have existed but no one can prove he spoke to a burning bush, split the red sea or wrote the word of God on a stone tablet.
    No, But it has been proven he existed, led God's people through the wilderness and continued on. So since the events took place that God said would take place, why would I doubt that he spoke to Moses through a burning bush? You ever met George Washington? Nah, but you know he existed, and things took place to shape this country, therefore you have no doubts that what history says happened, did so.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    More proof that the book is man made and should not be accepted as absolute truth.
    Funny you should say this. tell me, which of the Bible writers takes credit for being the author of the Bible? I'll wait.



    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Really? So why is there no mention of electricity in the bible if it was meant to be timeless? Certainly god would have included a moral story of the implications of nuclear weapons...right? What about the moral implications of abortion, genetic engineering or the changing of the environment? If the book was indeed mmade by god and meant to be timeless certainly they would make mention of all these new moral and societal issues that the modern world grapples with. Instead we try jamming a round peg in a square hole. We apply stories in the bible to modern day events but they are not exact. Further the bible goes into specifics about events of that time.
    The Bible does not need to mention WMD, or electricity to be timeless. His principles are timeless. If we loved our neighbor more than ourselves, would we even think to create WMD? Highly doubtful. Abortion is murder. He been said that was wrong. He gave mankind the job of looking after the earth with the first man. Mankind has failed to adhere to doing so properly. Man's fault, not Jehovah's.

    So correction, the Bible is timeless, because it is just as relevant for humans today as it has always been.


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    The bible is clearly shown to be fallible when it gets the age of the earth wrong by a few billion years or asserts dinosaurs walked the earth with man. Before you say that God has a different concept on the length of a day or year remember there are countless other references to the length of a day in the bible that are accurate. Jesus rose after three literal days according to your beliefs so you cannot say that the bible uses some mysterious unit of measurement that in not quantifiable by us mere mortals.
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    You make arguments predicated on the teachings in a book you believe and state them as fact. You cannot argue the validity of the stories by using the stories as examples of record.
    But I can prophecy! If the book says A) will happen in our time, and I look around and see it taking place, has the prophecy not then come true?

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    This did not address my point at all. In essence we do not have free will since god already knows exactly what we are going to do. Why would one need to walk the path to prove anything if god is all knowing?
    You clearly are misguided on what free will actually is. Free will means that even though God wants us to love him, he gives us the choice to do otherwise, by letting it play out. And again, just because Jehovah has the ability to know and see all things, does not mean he always chooses to exercise that ability. Why can't God choose to live in the moment, so to speak? The being who could create Galaxies with a thought, cannot choose to not know what a person will or won't do? You buy that? I don't.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    You can love who you want and chose to express that love how you see fit. The problem comes with the arrogance that your choice and beliefs are somehow the only correct or true beliefs. That arrogance and intolerance would certainly be frowned on by the very god you chose to believe in.
    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    You are assuming that the man made book which you derive these standards from is somehow correct and divinely inspired. Your whole argument will always whittle down to faith because at its root there is no truth. There is no proof of anything other than what you wish to believe.
    Again, tough to argue with men who did not even speak our language, or have the resources we have now, thousands of years ago, can pen events that have taken place in future times, long after they died, even down to our day. Utterly impossible for it to be staged. Their is no assumption. The Bible is the only book with such things, because God is the only one who is the future. Period.


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Wrong. God is supposedly all knowing so why would he need you to pray in order to know what is in your heart? Praying is for humans...its a comfort food for the masses.
    Jehovah used to speak to Adam, personally each day before sin. Since we are now sinners, that path has been blocked by God, until mankind is brought back to it's original state. But, he has given the provision of prayer for us to speak with him about anything we wish. Since he has done this out of love, it is fairly safe to say that he lovingly listens.You would never dismiss what your kids school day is like each day, because you may already know what they are gonna say each day, would you? That would qualify you as a jerk for sure. I highly doubt that the being who sent his only son to die for us, views our open communication to him as basic fodder for the masses. Just me.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    To a supreme being there is no past or future...there just is. Even science has proven that time is not linear and is relative. The 3 day life span of a fruit fly may seem like a 100 years. God does not nbeed to pause, fast forward or rewind anything...he just knows everything all at once.

    So it's all a test yet he already knows all the answers...
    Correct. Jehovah is the only being in existence that is timeless. Even Jesus in heaven had an origin. But just because Jehovah has used his ability to foresee the future, does not mean one cannot come out on the winning side. he does not spoil it, and everyone has the opportunity to live. Up to use to seize it. Every living person on earth right now could gain life, but most will choose death. Again, not Jehovah's fault, but super intelligent mankind's.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    We do not need a god or higher power to understand why stealing or adultery is wrong. Further you have no idea "how god is doing". I am not suffering...speak for yourself.
    This was a relative statement. You are suffering. You're sick, you're going to die, and there is nothing you can do about it, apart from God. If seeing the world in it's current state does not make you suffer, if you're just like "I'm good" then I truly feel sorry for you. You've mastered the art of selfishness, in that case.


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    And people have seen the lochness moster, UFO's and bigfoot. Sorry but humans make **** up all the time. Just because a human wrote something 2000 years ago does not mean it is a correct portrayal of events. Why chose to believe that and not the story of Zeus and Hercules?
    Don't forget to throw in half monkey, half man, human ancestors! Jesus existed, Zeus and Hercules, not so much. The bible deals with real people and real events. The people mentioned in there lived and died. History has helped to prove a lot of the Bible accounts accurately. Plus, the knockout punch, prophecy. Again.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    The fact that you speak with such certitude as if you know exactly what heaven is like and why things are the way they are is pretty crazy. I am willing to admit, I don't know what happens. What I do know is that there is ZERO evidence to backup your claims.
    I never been to heaven. Can't tell ya what it's like. But God's word tells us why the world is jacked up, why we die, how we got here, what's God's plan to fix it, and that mankind will one day live on this earth for eternity, under Jehovah's loving rule.

    There is a people on earth that are foregoing their own endeavors to do God's will out of love for him, and Jehovah's word said this would happen thousands of years ago. This people reflects only one group, and though by the numbers they are a small band in comparison to other faiths, has pulled off the most intense preaching work in human history. There is not 3 groups, 4, 5. Only one, doing this. Funny, because Jehovah specifically said there would be a "People" singular. This is taking place right in front of you. Like it or not, there's your proof.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    This misses the point. Nature is brutal and imperfect even when man is not involved. A perfect being would not fail at forming stars or galaxies. We are a tiny spec in a near infinite universe during a small blip in time yet your arrogance would suggest that the world around you was created by a supreme being just for us. We are nothing, we are fruitflies living in a fraction of a second. We are microscopic compared to stars that are thousands of times bigger than our sun. We are nothing in this universe and to suggest we are made in gods image is an insult to any higher organism that may be out in the universe.
    Who said that all stars or galaxies were meant to be formed? who is to say maybe the ones that don't form may serve a purpose beyond our understanding? Oh, that's right, we're men. Imperfect, all knowing, human science says so. so it must be.

    Yet, I am to believe that out of the chaos called by science "The Big Bang theory", somehow order came of it? That's not a fail, but because there are no explained answers by science why stars die, or galaxies don't form, means God failed? That's knee slap funny.

    There are many living organisms on earth. No life found anywhere else. Why can't it just be that maybe the earth was prepared for life? I mean... IT"S OBVIOUS!!!!! Why does it have to be an anomaly? Stroke of luck? Why can't it be that, maybe God decided to start making life on the planets with earth? Why can't it be that he will put life on other planets? There is a such thing as a "start", correct? Why can't we be just that?

    The bible says God is these things. Love, wisdom, power and justice. Human beings have the capacity to use each of the four main qualities of God. Hence, we are in his image.





    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Again, why would we have to prove anything to an all knowing being who simultaneously experiences everything at once?
    From the man who told me I don't know how God is doing, how do you know he simultaneously experiences everything at once?


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    The irony of such a statement coming form someone who claims to know what "true" religion is and how best to have a relationship with god. What you don't understand you explain with faith and false certitude.
    Simply put, what I speak of knowing, does not originate with me, but with he who IS knowing. Therefore it is truth, not based on my merits, but his.


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    How could they be around before Abraham? How could they bare witness to Jesus when he came to earth thousands of years after the old testament? How could they be here before the Jews who first prayed to the God of Abraham and created the OT? The old testament makes no mention of Jesus or JW. It even goes so far as to say when the messiah does come that the world ends. ...period. If you want to read the entire book and take it literally how could Jesus be the messiah if his coming did not bring forth the end times? The OT is clear on this.
    Here is you're issue with understanding this. You are looking for an organized group, such as the Jews, and then Christians afterward. But really, a witness of Jehovah is a person who recognizes Jehovah as the supreme being, and worships him according to his righteousness. This is why in Hebrews chapters 11, Paul runs down a list of early worshipers of Jehovah, such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc. Why? Because they gave witness that Jehovah is the only true God. After he runs down the list of faithful servants of God in chapter 11, chapter 12 opens this way.

    1 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

    Who are those people witnesses of? JEHOVAH, GOD!!! Therefore, that will make them, Jehovah's witnesses! By the way, even Jesus Christ said he was a Jehovah's witness! (Jn 17:6) The bible even calls him, the FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS! Jesus is the truest Jehovah's witness in existence. And Jesus was around before any planet, galaxy, or star you can name.

    Moral of the story here is, Jehovah's witnesses been around quite a long time, my friend.


    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Jehovah's Witnesses is a [Only registered and activated users can see links. ],[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The religion reports worldwide membership of over 7 million adherents involved in [Only registered and activated users can see links. ];[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] they report convention attendance of over 12 million, and annual [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] attendance of over 18 million.[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] They are directed by a [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] of [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] which exercises authority on all doctrinal matters. Witnesses base their beliefs on the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], and prefer their own literal, conservative translation, the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The group emerged from the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ],[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] founded in the late [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] by [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], with the formation of [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. Following a schism in the movement, the branch that maintained control of the Society underwent significant organizational changes, bringing its authority structure and methods of evangelism under centralized control.[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The name Jehovah's witnesses, based on [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] 43:10-12, was adopted in 1931.


    Nope, you are making crap up. JW is a reltively new sect of Christianity. Christianity came several thousand years after Judiasim.
    Sorry, can't make this stuff up. You posted a link that goes against your argument by the way, because if you would have read Isaiah 43:10-12, you would have seen Jehovah himself calling his people his witnesses, and why. Which then would have probably prevented a smart guy like you from posting and article that verifies the Bible's point, and smashes yours to bits.

    If Jehovah called the Jews at the time his witnesses, why then do you defiantly stand there and say Jehovah's witnesses are new?







    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    BTW...You completely dodged my point that homosexuality exists in nature and is not just a man made phenomenon.
    I don't know why there is homosexuality in some animals. I don't pretend to touch subjects I'm clueless about. Only thing I will say is Jehovah knows. And though that does not work for you, suits me just fine. Simple for this reason. Animals cannot read. Jehovah sent his son to recover what Adam lost for humanity, not homosexual animals.

    So I will stick with humans. Homosexuality is in opposition to how Jehovah says man should live. Just as drunkards, adulterers, liars, thieves and such. If you stick with humans, we can deal. Animals, I have no clue and really don't give 2 cent.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I was hoping Paul would take up this argument since it is his religion. I really feel no need to defend his religion. It all is a bunch of hogwash but could you please explain again how someone can be Lord but not be God? Since you claim Jesus is Lord but not God, there seem to be many passages in the bible where God states "I am the Lord" or "I am the Lord, thy God".

    For example Isaiah 43:

    that I alone am God.
    I have always been God;
    there can be no others.
    11I alone am the LORD;


    I might be missing it, which wouldn't surprise me. I don't see the distinction between Lord and God.
    Half man, half ape ancestors is wassup though! Lord and God titles. Which explains why many people had those distinctions biblically. In fact, the Bible even calls Satan god of this system, or world(for now) because he is in charge temporarily. But no one would say he is almighty God because the bible calls him god of this system. Bible says men should act as gods. We all know we're not god. But it also says that if we follow Jehovah's laws and principles, we'd be godlike!

    Jesus is called Lord, because he is Jehovah's chosen King, who will be in charge of fixing the earth and humanity back to it's original state, for Jehovah's glory. Which explains why the title Lord, is bestowed upon him. It is a proper distinction. And Jehovah is above all, which makes him ALMIGHTY GOD and ALMIGHTY LORD, with Micheal, Jesus' heavenly name, next in line. As told here in 1st corinthians 15:

    24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Also in Isaiah 9:

    For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


    Doesn't the bible say here to call Jesus Mighty God?
    Yes! Jesus is a MIGHTY God! He is the second most powerful being in existence! Hence, why he is said to be a MIGHTY God, and not the ALMIGHTY God. Jesus is never said to be Almighty anywhere in the Bible.

    He is also the everlasting Father, because he will live forever, because he loves Jehovah, and because he adopted the human family, by dying to recover our sinful state. Therefore, we have become his children, since his life will be responsible for us gaining back everlasting life that Adam lost for us.

    He is called the prince of Peace, because he is the Son of Jehovah, who is the most powerful being in existence, and Jehovah has given Jesus the responsibility of restoring the earth to a peaceful paradise, once again.

    al·might·y

    –adjective1.having unlimited power; omnipotent, as God.

    2.having very great power, influence, etc.: The almighty press condemned him without trial.

    3.Informal. extreme; terrible: He's in an almighty fix.

    might·y
    adjective,might·i·er, might·i·est, adverb, noun
    –adjective1.having, characterized by, or showing superior power or strength: mighty rulers.

    2.of great size; huge: a mighty oak.

    3.great in amount, extent, degree, or importance; exceptional: a mighty accomplishment.











    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Also, in John 10, Jesus claims that he and God are one. The Jews are about to stone him to death for claiming he is God. How come Jesus does not deny that he is claiming to be God?
    Jesus and Jehovah are one! But does that mean they are one and the same being, or could that mean they are one in likeness and stand for the same things? Let's find another verse where Jesus says he and the Father are one, may help shed some light on the subject.

    John 17:
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


    So, should one believe that those who have faith in Jesus are God too? Or does the context indicate that they are all one because of likeness and what they stand for? I'll let you decide.


    And keep this little tidbit in mind. The belief that Jesus is God, is called the trinity belief. Father, Son, Holy spirit. Separate beings, all make up one God. Yet Jesus fails to mention the Holy Spirit when he says He and the Father are one. Should it not be, " The Father, The spirit, and I are one God", for clarification? And then if those who put faith in Jesus are one with him and God, would it then be much more than a triune God? Also, the Holy Spirit is never called God at any point in time, biblically. And the word Trinity does not appear in any torah, or bible in existence. Just for further clarification.






    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    And in John 1, Jesus is called the Word and the Word is called God.

    1In the beginning was the one
    who is called the Word.

    The Word was with God

    and was truly God.
    I can get into a long drawn out version of why this is a misrepresentation, but it's not needed, because you're just trying to prove me wrong, not really wanting to know if it's true. So here is the abbr version.

    KJ version.
    John Chapter 1

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]The same was in the beginning with God.


    The beginnings here, clearly speaks of the word's beginning, and the beginning of creation after the word.


    in the beginning, was the word. Jehovah creates Jesus. Now the word is with God, and as I previously stated, he acts just like Jehovah, so he is God like. Bible calls him mighty God.



    The same was in the beginning "WITH" God. The with part should clarify it, but for most it does not. How can you be God, but with him at the same time? lacks logic. And Still, no mention at all of the Holy Spirit. Just Jesus and Jehovah. Weird. Well now these two Gods begin to create. Bible says nothing else was made apart from Jesus that exists. Not a star, not a planet, nothing. Which then makes Jesus being called Jehovah's only begotten son applicable. Because Jesus was the only thing that Jehovah ever created alone. Should help.


    But side note* other Trinitarian based Bibles have concluded that word being God, should be translated divine, or A God. Based on the context of the verses. Which is why some trinitarian bibles put say the word was divine, or Godlike, instead of God, like the KJ version. If you want deeper detail, I can provide it.






    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    11 He came into his own world,

    but his own nation

    did not welcome him.

    12Yet some people accepted him

    and put their faith in him.

    So he gave them the right

    to be the children of God.

    13They were not God's children

    by nature

    or because

    of any human desires.

    God himself was the one

    who made them his children.

    14 The Word became

    a human being


    and lived here with us.

    We saw his true glory,

    the glory of the only Son

    of the Father.

    From him all the kindness

    and all the truth of God

    have come down to us.

    15John spoke about him and shouted, "This is the one I told you would come! He is greater than I am, because he was alive before I was born."

    16Because of all that the Son is, we have been given one blessing after another. [b] 17The Law was given by Moses, but Jesus Christ brought us undeserved kindness and truth. 18No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.



    I don't know. I will not claim to be the greatest interpreter of the bible as you do, but it seems rather clear that Jesus is God. And God, Lord, Jesus, Word, or whatever, are all the same.
    Aww man! You forgot the good part!!!


    John 1: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

    Wait a minute! I thought the word was God? Says the Son is God and he became flesh. Would that then not mean that indeed, mankind HAS SEEN GOD? In fact THEY KILLED GOD!!! Can you believe that! Mankind Killed God!!! NOT!!!!!

    Do you know why that is a fail? Because the Bible says God cannot die!!!!! When Jesus died, He had to wait 3 days to be resurrected. So does that mean God took a leave of absence from life? How did everything else continue to live, when the source of life was dead at the hands of his very creations? Also, point blank, John 1:18 contradicts any belief of Jesus being God, in a sensible manner. NO MAN HAVE SEEN GOD AT ANYTIME it says. EVER!!! So clearly, either we can close the Bible altogether, or Jesus must indeed be a mighty God, underneath the almighty God, which would explain how Jesus could die and life continue on, because the almighty cannot die, and we have yet to see him, but Jesus explained and showed us how Jehovah is. yes, that makes much more sense.

    Jehovah hates false worship. So explain why Jesus would be God, but say he has a God? How much sense does that make? Jehovah NEVER EVER said he has a God. Jesus did though. Many times. There is more I can give ya. Lots. But if ya can explain how No man has ever seen God, But managed to kill him, I will write a letter of hate to the society and graffiti on every kingdom hall I see.

    Trust me, I will wait on this one!


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Wait, you are saying your book says that others will follow other books, therefore that is evidence?? The Koran says the same thing.

    And you're saying that a book tells us what to do and you are doing what the book tells you to do, so therefore that is evidence for it being true?? Huh?!? That is the worst circular logic I have ever seen. With this logic, the Koran tells muslims to slay the infidels. Radical muslims are slaying the infedels. Therefore, that is evidence for the Koran as truth and God's word. ?!?!?!?
    No. I'm saying the prophecy in Isaiah 2 concerns our time, and only one group on earth is adhering to it, and it concerns establishing true worship of Jehovah. People of all nations will come to be instructed in Jehovah's way, and will learn war no more. Jehovah is the one who says worship of him will trump worship of other Gods, namely by how pure and united his people will be, and how much different his people will be from all other faiths. And it has come to pass.

    The Koran, has no such prophecies. I am familiar with it's teachings.

    Bible prophecy is what ultimately set it apart. And You can scoff at it as I know you do, but there is no way an objective person can read that prophecy and say it has not come to pass. Just look around.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    The other religions have just as much evidence as your religion. Again, I ask you to disprove the other religions.

    Since you come out and say your religion is the only true religion, the onus is on you to disprove the other religions. How come you can't disprove the other religions?

    Seems odd to me that someone would say I am right and everybody else is wrong and not have any evidence to refute the other side's arguments.
    The evidence is all around you. The United states army has members from every faith known, just about, and yet, those same person will go to war with neighboring countries, with fellow worshipers to kill or be killed. Not on the account of God, but on the account of their government! There is not one single Jehovah's witness in any army, on earth. Why? Because Jehovah said his people will learn war no more. It has come to pass.

    I don't wanna single out specific faiths. I will just say that a faith should be about uplifting moral standards, and being loving and peaceful with all mankind. This is simply not the case. But it does hold true for Jehovah's witnesses. Or else Jehovah would be a liar. And that's impossible.

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    Knicks4lyfe is right, guys. False religion is on its last legs.

    Jehovah's Witnesses' failed predictions, from 1914-1994: 8, including 7 that specifically came from the Watchtower Society.
    1914**, 1915**, 1918**, 1920**, 1925**, 1941**, 1975** and 1994*
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    *Prediction came from members.
    **Prediction came from Watchtower Society and was agreed upon by its members.

    After the Jehovah's Witnesses first failed prediction in 1914, they agreed that that was the year Jesus began to "invisibly rule his throne in heaven."

    "When 1914 passed, they changed their prediction; 1914 became the year that Jesus invisibly began his rule"
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Where in the Bible does it say that in 1914 Jesus invisibly ruled his throne?
    Nowhere, yet the Jehovah's Witnesses took it upon themselves to create a false date.

    The biggest hypocrisy of the Jehovah's Witnesses is their refusal to accept blood transfusions, because the Bible says to "abstain from blood." Yet they're the same people who eat steak, pork chops, chicken, turkey, etc. all of which has blood in it.

    "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell."

    Acts 15:29

    This quote is from the international version of the Bible.

    Let's look at the New World Translation(Jehovah's Witness Bible).
    "to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication."

    Both versions say to abstain from blood.

    This international version specifically says to abstain from blood that comes from animals, and the New World Translation says to abstain from blood, yet most Jehovah's Witnesses consume meat that has blood on it. And before Knicks4lyfe tries to manipulate the truth, it says to abstain from blood. Meat has blood on it, so no matter how you put it, most Jehovah's Witnesses do not abstain from blood.
    Last edited by abcd; Mar 16, 2010 at 18:40.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Knicks4lyfe is right, guys. False religion is on its last legs.

    Jehovah's Witnesses' failed predictions, from 1914-1994: 8, including 7 that specifically came from the Watchtower Society.
    1914**, 1915**, 1918**, 1920**, 1925**, 1941**, 1975** and 1994*
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    *Prediction came from members.
    **Prediction came from Watchtower Society and was agreed upon by its members.

    After the Jehovah's Witnesses first failed prediction in 1914, they agreed that that was the year Jesus began to "invisibly rule his throne in heaven."

    "When 1914 passed, they changed their prediction; 1914 became the year that Jesus invisibly began his rule"
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Have not Jehovah’s Witnesses made errors in their teachings?


    Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.

    The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ’s presence, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan’s wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36)

    Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah’s purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42.

    Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God’s permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty.

    God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth.

    Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovah’s Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves.


    Originally Posted by abcd
    Where in the Bible does it say that in 1914 Jesus invisibly ruled his throne?
    Nowhere, yet the Jehovah's Witnesses took it upon themselves to create a false date.
    Jesus claims to be King of the Kingdom of the heavens. All spirit creatures in heaven are invisible to humans. So it should just be common sense that if Jesus was correct, he'd rule invisibly on his throne. Even the simplest of minds should be able to comprehend that.

    As far as the date 1914- [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    This was addressed.






    Originally Posted by abcd
    The biggest hypocrisy of the Jehovah's Witnesses is their refusal to accept blood transfusions, because the Bible says to "abstain from blood." Yet they're the same people who eat steak, pork chops, chicken, turkey, etc. all of which has blood in it.

    "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell."

    Acts 15:29

    This quote is from the international version of the Bible.

    Let's look at the New World Translation(Jehovah's Witness Bible).
    "to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication."

    Both versions say to abstain from blood.

    This international version specifically says to abstain from blood that comes from animals, and the New World Translation says to abstain from blood, yet most Jehovah's Witnesses consume meat that has blood on it. And before Knicks4lyfe tries to manipulate the truth, it says to abstain from blood. Meat has blood on it, so no matter how you put it, most Jehovah's Witnesses do not abstain from blood.
    "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols

    "to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols

    You're problem is, you fail to realize exactly what the problem here is. The problem is not the food, or the things. It is the fact that the food, or things is sacrificed to Idols, which to God entail false worship, which in turn makes it unclean in his eyes.

    Anything sacrificed to Idols, or Idol worship is unclean, again, for clarification.

    If meat is properly bled, one can eat it without guilt.

    No manipulation needed, just proper understanding. Hope it helps.

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    If anyone believes in the Book of Revelation...then false religion will only increase and so will false teachers/prophets that claim to know all the answers, "but they are fools" as the good book explains it.
    And they will trick even the elect!

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Have not Jehovah’s Witnesses made errors in their teachings?


    Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.

    The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ’s presence, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan’s wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36)

    Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah’s purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42.

    Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God’s permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty.

    God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth.

    Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovah’s Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves.


    Jesus claims to be King of the Kingdom of the heavens. All spirit creatures in heaven are invisible to humans. So it should just be common sense that if Jesus was correct, he'd rule invisibly on his throne. Even the simplest of minds should be able to comprehend that.

    As far as the date 1914- [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    This was addressed.








    "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols

    "to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols

    You're problem is, you fail to realize exactly what the problem here is. The problem is not the food, or the things. It is the fact that the food, or things is sacrificed to Idols, which to God entail false worship, which in turn makes it unclean in his eyes.

    Anything sacrificed to Idols, or Idol worship is unclean, again, for clarification.

    If meat is properly bled, one can eat it without guilt.

    No manipulation needed, just proper understanding. Hope it helps.
    Your argument is that the Bible says to not have food sacrificed to idols and things sacrificed to idols.

    You just contradicted yourself. A blood transfusion is not sacrificed to idols. It is given to human beings who need it to survive. So unless you consider your fellow members of the Jehovah's Witnesses to be false idols, then your statement is void.

    Also, human and animal bodies are filled with blood. Even if you drain a piece of meat of its blood, it will still have blood inside it. In other words, most Jehovah's Witnesses do not abstain from blood.

    As for the 1914 prediction, I repeat, where in the Bible does it say that Jesus invisibly ruled his throne in 1914? You admitted that humans make mistakes, so I am not going to accept a Watchtower quote. Find a Bible quote that lists 1914 as the year where Jesus invisibly ruled his throne. You can't.

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