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Thread: False religion on it's last legs.

  1. #61
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    First off, I am not a Buddhist. In fact, I never became one. I studied Buddhist texts, in my early twenties, before moving on to other spiritual interests. Since you wrote your erroneous Buddhist Monk thread, I discussed Buddhism with you and added a sig of the Buddha to my profile.

    Your first answer to my comparison of your deity versus that of others, as indistinguishable, insofar as their existence, entailed action. You said that "Jehovah acts, and the others don't." But there is no action. You must be talking about your belief in the verity of the powers that your god exhibited in the bible. These are unproven to anyone. Krishna shows his "universal form" to various characters in the Bhagavad Gita (The Lord's Song). This was meant to show them that he created all.

    I am sure they could speak as if their story was real, like you do about yours. This just means that they believe these things happened, not that they actually happened. You act as if there is video tape of a divinely created burning bush.

    And you refuse to answer the question of superiority. The very nature of the emphasis most Christian groups put on reward, versus your god arbitrarily deciding not to grant the non-believers, as a bloc, eternal life, is the definition of spiritual arrogance and self-perceived superiority. Even if you do not feel it, the bible created these two distinctions: the narrow road and the wide, to motivate believers and threaten non-believers. This is the very reason why Christians have relished in their persecution of non-Christians, be it through the crusades or the act of dis-fellowshiping.
    And again, you grew up in a Christian society. No one asked you to give up your culture, religion, and history, to follow Russell's witnesses. The leap is much smaller, when moving from Catholic Christianity to JW Christianity, than when moving from Jainism to any form of Christianity. It is insensitive, and is symptomatic of self-centered belief, to be unable to recognize this.

    "If, for instance, He would have magically made the book appear, would you believe that instead? Probably not. Makes better sense to have many men, in different era's write it, along with prophetic word, that those truly seeking God, will have no issue making sense of, correct?"


    My answer to this: yes, I would be more likely to believe the bible to be from a supreme being, if it magically appeared. No, it does not make sense to have people write a book and then claim to have been told the contents of it by a supreme being. They may be liars or schizophrenic. They may be high on some sort of hallucinogen.

    And you just exposed yourself by claiming that God would need people to write for him, so that his words made be make sense to those "truly seeking God." In other words, you are implying that your God does not have the power to make, at the least, perfect sense to those "truly seeking God."

    Further, what makes you think I do not truly seek God? Just because I do not accept the Hebrew deity as the creator of the world, it does not mean I have no belief in a supreme force. I actually do, but I think it is useless to spend time contemplating on it. You only serve creation by living, and treating other living creatures, with dignity. One's time should be spent improving oneself. This is the problem with your beliefs, they distract attention from oneself, which is why many of your Christian brethren fall so short of objective moral conduct (crossing all cultural boundaries) and thought, both overtly and subtly. Why would a being or force create one to put one's energies into belief in old, rotting pages and not the elevation of one's presence in this world?

    And it is your denomination's theology, like that of most Christian groups, to use fear. Your watchtowers consistently print issues that ask something like, "When will all suffering end?" "Do you want to live forever?" This is meant to motivate a person according to his or her selfishness (of receiving compensation for believing), as well as his or her fear (of being condemned for not believing). Of course, there is more to it all: the euphoria of being told you are the chosen people, the feeling of belonging to a group of the distinguished, the constant positive reinforcement: "you really know your bible, KFL" "you are definitely going to paradise, KFL," "What will you do in paradise, KFL?"

    And when you use the words love and peace, when referring to life in paradise, the words are so loaded with dogma, as well as heathen ideas. Peace is probably best described by balance, homeostasis. Most religions are devoid of this, there is a lack of balance, and, instead, an emphasis on certain things, the neglect of others. Why? Because the authors of these religions have one-track minds, full of certain leanings and definitions that are the result of ideology. There is no purity or innocence in their words.
    Love is principally defined by a deep well of compassion. A religion where its deity murders children and women, sanctions that women are subjugated, wherein slavery is promoted, is devoid of love.

    As for everything being a "colossal fail in comparison" you would not know that, because you live within the fence of JW theology. JW are not even supposed to visit other temples, churches, etc., so you have no idea what they teach.

    And almost every religion has a concept of life after death. In Hinduism, this is called reincarnation into another being, which is based on one's Karma. In Buddhism, selfishness and desire bring you back, over and over, into existence, which the Buddha describes as suffering: age, sickness and craving. I do not believe in any of these more than any other. Why? Because there is no reason to speculate. You would have to die, in order to know. The difference between you and I is that I know that. You seem to think that you know what happens after death, because the Russell's Witnesses have told you.

    On your concept of spiritual brotherhood, if you believe that our existence is spiritual in nature, then everyone and thing is supposed to be a sister or brother to you. Some of these people are evil in nature. For those, I can only feel pity, but they are still a brother or sister. It is sad that the JW prevent you from perceiving that.

    So... Jehovah can blame the Pharaoh for what he did? Right! And, sir, the hard-heartedness is in your deity, which is why the truly compassionate, or those that strive for compassion, cannot submit to its will. No amount of threats of "rain," no amount of threats of loss of reward can convince people like me to believe in an unproven being that acts in this manner. And I am content to live now, in the hopes of helping as many living beings as I can, if I can.

    And his followers are Jehovah's legacy, and their irrational, violent (disfellowshiping, the crusades), divisive (God's ONLY witnesses), threatening (THE RAIN) behavior, which you have exposed, are it. Here is your man God of the Hebrews! Impressive. I want the threats and fear to come out, and I have done that. This is what keeps you in the hall.

    As for your explanation of why the Jews were the chosen people, look: every group of people, clan, tribe, etc., has had their own deity, clan God, etc. Why do you think, for example, that the bible refers to Jehovah as "The God of the Hebrews," which intimates that there are possibly other Gods but that this one belongs too them?

    The fact that, in later times, the book was modified to allow everyone in is the work of a more inclusive mind. This still does not, however, change the fact of Jehovah's origins as a Semitic clan deity. Proof: he is a man (the Jews were a patrilineal society), other societies have had female deities, because they are matrilineal, he prefers Abel over Cain (they were a pastoral society and try to prove their favor over farmers). It is not a real god!

    "Good thing is, Jehovah is the one who can fix it." You said that in reference to my posing of a question about Jehovah's wrath. It is pretty obvious that you admitted his wrath was a mistake. Otherwise, why would you use the word "mistake." I think you are beginning to see your morality trump the bible's stories.

    Why do JW always use the same vocabulary, such as "do your own thing?" It is a pretty cheap quality. I am not selfish, so it is not about doing my own thing. I do not follow because I do not see the need to follow a supreme being. Just as the animals need not follow a more intelligent being, in nature, we need not follow a more intelligent being ourselves. I see it as our duty to be moral, strive for wisdom, humility, and compassion, particularly as the most powerful creatures on the Earth, who have the most ability to take care of the Earth's state. A supreme being or force would not need us to acknowledge it, give it worship. It would, if it existed, instead want us to live rightly.

    This idea of a worshiping deity is a human concept, the giving of honor and the pleasures that come with that.

    You are right, philosophy and spiritual search can become ideological, like with Christianity and the other religions. In fact, it often does. This is not the point. The point is that a governing body, or some other kind of ruling body, stagnates individual growth, key word: individual.

    It does not allow one to gain true wisdom, true understanding, pathless, non-ideological perception: seeing for oneself. Wisdom cannot be organized. The JWs are especially bad because they have an actual body of people that dictate theology and action. This is profound in its opposition to spiritual growth and wisdom.

    See for yourself, hear for yourself. Do the work of reaching the truth for yourself. Only you can save you. I might give you some words of advice, but it is ultimately up to you to try to encounter reality.

    And you asked if there are not other Buddhists repeating what I do. I am not a Buddhist, and what I say comes from personal understanding, gained from countless occasions of having sat down to contemplate, engage in readings, conversations, etc., independent of any religion. Sure, there are people that might say similar things, but it is not because I am tied to any organization or because I sit with them to get our stories straight, or because I am told what to say, or listen to what people have written or spoken and then internalize it. If others say what I say, it is mere co-incidence. With you, you say the same thing as others, as the result of a very calculated process. I started off much like you, but the intention was always to go off on my own.

    Contrary to your last post, accepting a deity does not determine if one is Good or not, which is why members of your organization commit all sorts of atrocities, in spite of their belief in Jehovah. Others do not, but belief in the deity has nothing to do with their moral understanding of compassion, self-respect, love, loyalty, etc.

    So... are you going to knock on doors and tell everyone, not just on the web, that is not a JW how they are immoral because of this. Answer the question. And if everyone, outside of your organization, was so immoral, you would be wiped from existence, by the very same governments and people that you call into question.

    To answer your question, when I meditate, it is not a practice of talking to a who: a concept of God as a person, created by people, obviously. I meditate to achieve a silence of the mind, a destruction of the self, desire and weakness. Meditation allows the being to be free from self, to detach from self, and the things that maintain self, i.e., affiliations of all kind, addictions, attachment of all kinds, etc.

    Oh, so you are saying the bible says that Jesus will return invisibly, to allow everything to continue as it is, in 1914? I haven't seen that in the bible. I know it says that you should stone psychics, like CT Russell. I know that the bible says Jesus is coming back, period, to end things. Period. Not that I believe any of this bunk.

    And lastly, I repeat, your organization is not special, simply because you are not transformed by your practice. Your members, down to the longest standing, and I know a few of these, simply repeat what they are told. They constantly talk about paradise, "doing your own thing," and "the only people who follow the bible." They move into this religion and remain what they become. The very process is full of attachment, identification, labels, just like everything else. There is nothing unique here. Liberation, here, does not exist.

    Read for yourself, study the Buddhist texts: Dhammapatta, try the American book, The Gospel of Buddha. Try reading books by Krishnamurti, Ken Wilbur. Expand your understanding and existence.

  2. #62
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    yes i have led a righteous life so i have lived for eternity.

    The only thing that can kill me is some dude with a sword that cuts off my head.

    God was a terrible person in the age of dinosaurs...he rode a velociraptor, To be able to travel around the world fast enough to kill all the other dinosaurs cuz he was a racist. Then when he finally finished the job on pangeea he killed the proverbial horse he rode on. Then he covered it up with a meteor and ice age just to hid the job.....

    He's sneaky.
    Last edited by clumsy; Apr 14, 2010 at 13:12.

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    Seriously as much as i rag on people who worship god and the bible or any other holy book it is cool. I don't mind what you do......unless you are like some crazed group like those jesus freaks in teh midwest (westboro church). We just wont' agree. I mean it doesn't change anything cuz you just think i'm going to the underworld, whereas i just think i'm maximizing my time on earth with no apologies. Either perspective, enjoy.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    First off, I am not a Buddhist. In fact, I never became one. I studied Buddhist texts, in my early twenties, before moving on to other spiritual interests. Since you wrote your erroneous Buddhist Monk thread, I discussed Buddhism with you and added a sig of the Buddha to my profile.
    So are you trying to say that the information given in that thread is false? I hope not. Because you would stand absolutely alone in that thought process.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Your first answer to my comparison of your deity versus that of others, as indistinguishable, insofar as their existence, entailed action. You said that "Jehovah acts, and the others don't." But there is no action.

    I am sure they could speak as if their story was real, like you do about yours. This just means that they believe these things happened, not that they actually happened. You act as if there is video tape of a divinely created burning bush.
    No video tape is needed. Jehovah has a people for his name, that he said would appear at a certain point in time, and had this written thousands of years ago. It has come to pass. Action. And that's just one example, but a glaring one. The others? Not so much.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And you refuse to answer the question of superiority. The very nature of the emphasis most Christian groups put on reward, versus your god arbitrarily deciding not to grant the non-believers, as a bloc, eternal life, is the definition of spiritual arrogance and self-perceived superiority.
    God arbitrarily deciding not to grant non believers life, is certainly his right to do. Same as you deciding not to grant the bum on the subway your hard earned money, no matter how big or small the amount. It is your right to decide how you spend your money. If I were here telling you how to spend your money, you'd laugh me off as insane. So why be angry at Jehovah for deciding he only wants loving God fearing people to live, since he created them? Is it not his right?

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Even if you do not feel it, the bible created these two distinctions: the narrow road and the wide, to motivate believers and threaten non-believers. This is the very reason why Christians have relished in their persecution of non-Christians, be it through the crusades or the act of dis-fellowshiping.
    Can't speak for other Christian factions, but I don't know 1 JW who likes to see a person disfellowshipped. By the way, Jehovah is the first to disfellowship, when he banned the demons from their heavenly dwelling. So it is a provision from him when a person no longer wishes to serve him, to protect the ones who do. It would be no different than you removing your kid from a group of people who are bringing down his grades and overall good habits. You would KNOW you are doing a good thing, and if your kid was smart, he would too in the long run and thank you for it. Even if that means he no longer associates as hard with the kids he once thought were good to be around. That is the purpose of disfellowshipping. Too bad you can't see the good in it.


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And again, you grew up in a Christian society. No one asked you to give up your culture, religion, and history, to follow Russell's witnesses. The leap is much smaller, when moving from Catholic Christianity to JW Christianity, than when moving from Jainism to any form of Christianity. It is insensitive, and is symptomatic of self-centered belief, to be unable to recognize this.
    All those meetings you claimed to be at, and you still don't even get the basics huh? Why do you think JW know so much about other faiths? Just to say so? Or maybe be able to relate to them when witnessing? Sometimes, I think you just talk to hear yourself talk. You don't get that even Christians are hard to talk to. It's easier sometimes to talk to a non believer in the bible than a believer of another Christian faith! You have the slightest clue of what it is to be a JW. Stop acting as if u do.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    "If, for instance, He would have magically made the book appear, would you believe that instead? Probably not. Makes better sense to have many men, in different era's write it, along with prophetic word, that those truly seeking God, will have no issue making sense of, correct?"

    My answer to this: yes, I would be more likely to believe the bible to be from a supreme being, if it magically appeared. No, it does not make sense to have people write a book and then claim to have been told the contents of it by a supreme being. They may be liars or schizophrenic. They may be high on some sort of hallucinogen.
    Cept for the fact that the greatest man to ever live, Jesus, had no problem putting faith in God's word. How is it that Jesus, a perfect man by nature, had no qualms believing the prophets and God's word, but you, a much lesser man, scoff?

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And you just exposed yourself by claiming that God would need people to write for him, so that his words made be make sense to those "truly seeking God." In other words, you are implying that your God does not have the power to make, at the least, perfect sense to those "truly seeking God."
    First, I never said Jehovah needed anything. I unlike you see the wisdom in him doing so at least. How he allowed 44 different writers in diff times write such a harmonious book of truth is utterly Godly. You can't get 5 people in the same house to agree half the time, how'd these 44 men manage to do so? Magic? Luck?


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Further, what makes you think I do not truly seek God? Just because I do not accept the Hebrew deity as the creator of the world, it does not mean I have no belief in a supreme force. I actually do, but I think it is useless to spend time contemplating on it.
    So you seek God by not contemplating on it? And you'll find him that way, how? I mean, just a guess here, but if I were God and I could see someone who says they are seeking me, but then say they don't contemplate about me, how could I think you're seeking me? That's backwards.


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    You only serve creation by living, and treating other living creatures, with dignity. One's time should be spent improving oneself. This is the problem with your beliefs, they distract attention from oneself, which is why many of your Christian brethren fall so short of objective moral conduct (crossing all cultural boundaries) and thought, both overtly and subtly. Why would a being or force create one to put one's energies into belief in old, rotting pages and not the elevation of one's presence in this world?
    I don't serve creation, but the CREATOR. You just summed up why you feel the way you do. You want to do you!!! Improve yourself. That sounds eerily like what Satan told Eve to do... DO YOU EVE! Eat from the tree... Be your own God. Tell me, did it turn out good for Eve?

    And secondly, one should be careful about elevating themselves too much in this world. The guy running it requires your life. And not in a good way.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And it is your denomination's theology, like that of most Christian groups, to use fear. Your watchtowers consistently print issues that ask something like, "When will all suffering end?" "Do you want to live forever?" This is meant to motivate a person according to his or her selfishness (of receiving compensation for believing), as well as his or her fear (of being condemned for not believing). Of course, there is more to it all: the euphoria of being told you are the chosen people, the feeling of belonging to a group of the distinguished, the constant positive reinforcement: "you really know your bible, KFL" "you are definitely going to paradise, KFL," "What will you do in paradise, KFL?"
    Im trying to figure out the bad in wanting to live forever. If a scientist said they created the fountain of youth, and bottled it up, everyone on earth will purchase a bottle. So condemn the people sending the message of eternal life from God, because of just that? THAT'S A GOOOOOOOOD THING!!! And no Jehovah's witness says anyone is def going to paradise... Only Jehovah knows. You're lost.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And when you use the words love and peace, when referring to life in paradise, the words are so loaded with dogma, as well as heathen ideas. Peace is probably best described by balance, homeostasis. Most religions are devoid of this, there is a lack of balance, and, instead, an emphasis on certain things, the neglect of others. Why? Because the authors of these religions have one-track minds, full of certain leanings and definitions that are the result of ideology. There is no purity or innocence in their words.
    Who said Peace is defined best by those words? You, my all knowing, sentient friend? You and that philosophy. Bottom line is this, the most peaceful people on earth belong to Jehovah. Whether you like it or not, it's true. Don't see em in any wars, blowing themselves and others up with bombs, stealing, putting down others for their race or other reasons. In fact, if they were not preaching, you'd not know they exist.

    Got the U.N., Science, other faiths and tons of philosophers, yet non of them have managed to bring the peace to people like Jehovah has for his in a world full of violence. Now that's some reality for your ass!


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Love is principally defined by a deep well of compassion. A religion where its deity murders children and women, sanctions that women are subjugated, wherein slavery is promoted, is devoid of love.
    9 of 10 people will say that Jesus Christ is the most lovingly profound person to ever live. Would Jesus love Jehovah if he felt there was any injustice in him? Much less be willing to suffer the type of death he did for an unloving God, that he calls Father? No. I'll say what is obvious, you don't understand Jehovah because you don't want too. Common theme here is: You being lost.





    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    As for everything being a "colossal fail in comparison" you would not know that, because you live within the fence of JW theology. JW are not even supposed to visit other temples, churches, etc., so you have no idea what they teach.
    So, one HAS to attend church, or a temple to know what goes on? Really? No other way to find out what a faith teaches? That's funny. Because I work next to a 5% and a Baptist and have not been either place (5% don't have a temple of worship, they teach everywhere, they are Gods) But when I showed them the info we have on them, neither said it was incorrect. It is a JW Job to know the faiths of the world. And trust me, the black man being God and the white man being the devil is a colossal fail. So is hellfire, the trinity and once saved, always saved.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And almost every religion has a concept of life after death. In Hinduism, this is called reincarnation into another being, which is based on one's Karma. In Buddhism, selfishness and desire bring you back, over and over, into existence, which the Buddha describes as suffering: age, sickness and craving. I do not believe in any of these more than any other. Why? Because there is no reason to speculate. You would have to die, in order to know. The difference between you and I is that I know that. You seem to think that you know what happens after death, because the Russell's Witnesses have told you.
    Actually, I believe that death is a state of unconsciousness, like sleep. Why? Because 8 people in the bible died and were resurrected, and not one spoke of heaven, hell, purgatory or blistering cold or hot. Jesus likened Lazarus being dead for 4 days to sleep. When a person sleeps they are unconscious. Which in turn harmonizes with this scripture:

    Ecc 9.5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

    This would explain why none of the resurrected spoke of any sort of after life. Even Jesus didnt when he was resurrected.

    Russell is not the founder of our faith. We are led by Christ Jesus. Get it correct.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    On your concept of spiritual brotherhood, if you believe that our existence is spiritual in nature, then everyone and thing is supposed to be a sister or brother to you. Some of these people are evil in nature. For those, I can only feel pity, but they are still a brother or sister. It is sad that the JW prevent you from perceiving that.
    You are my brother. But we do not serve the same God, we have nothing in common spiritually, so we are not spiritual brothers. Easy concept.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    So... Jehovah can blame the Pharaoh for what he did? Right! And, sir, the hard-heartedness is in your deity, which is why the truly compassionate, or those that strive for compassion, cannot submit to its will. No amount of threats of "rain," no amount of threats of loss of reward can convince people like me to believe in an unproven being that acts in this manner. And I am content to live now, in the hopes of helping as many living beings as I can, if I can.
    So, if Alquaeda kidnapped the president, and the Gov gave warning for his release or else, if they did not comply and suffered greatly for it, the government would be in the wrong? That is essentially what you're saying. Keep in mind, Jehovah asked him very nicely before he sent any plagues.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And his followers are Jehovah's legacy, and their irrational, violent (disfellowshiping, the crusades), divisive (God's ONLY witnesses), threatening (THE RAIN) behavior, which you have exposed, are it. Here is your man God of the Hebrews! Impressive. I want the threats and fear to come out, and I have done that. This is what keeps you in the hall.
    It's amazing how you keep missing it.


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    As for your explanation of why the Jews were the chosen people, look: every group of people, clan, tribe, etc., has had their own deity, clan God, etc. Why do you think, for example, that the bible refers to Jehovah as "The God of the Hebrews," which intimates that there are possibly other Gods but that this one belongs too them?
    I believe I explained that already. The world was full of false worship. Jehovah needed to establish true worship in his name to separate the true God, from the false. False being those who don't exist, which is why the Egyptian gods couldn't prevent Jehovah's plagues. One can make anything their God. Money, science, philosophy. Does not mean it is actually God.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    The fact that, in later times, the book was modified to allow everyone in is the work of a more inclusive mind. This still does not, however, change the fact of Jehovah's origins as a Semitic clan deity. Proof: he is a man (the Jews were a patrilineal society), other societies have had female deities, because they are matrilineal, he prefers Abel over Cain (they were a pastoral society and try to prove their favor over farmers). It is not a real god!
    Jehovah always had the plan of including everyone. He expresses this very early in the book. You must have missed when he told Abraham his seed would bring about blessings for all mankind. Not surprised tho. You seem to be outta the loop. And again, the first human to serve Jehovah til death was Abel. So you're wrong.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    "Good thing is, Jehovah is the one who can fix it." You said that in reference to my posing of a question about Jehovah's wrath. It is pretty obvious that you admitted his wrath was a mistake. Otherwise, why would you use the word "mistake." I think you are beginning to see your morality trump the bible's stories.
    Stop speaking for me. Jehovah is incapable of making mistakes. He did not put us in this mess, we did. So the mistakes I refer to are self inflicted by humanity. Good thing is, Jehovah can fix it.


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Why do JW always use the same vocabulary, such as "do your own thing?" It is a pretty cheap quality. I am not selfish, so it is not about doing my own thing. I do not follow because I do not see the need to follow a supreme being. Just as the animals need not follow a more intelligent being, in nature, we need not follow a more intelligent being ourselves.
    This from the man who said he is seeking the supreme being or force, just does not contemplate on it. So you don't wanna follow him? So then I was correct, you are not seeking him! Which is why he in turn has not allowed you to find the truth. Which is why you toil around with fruitless philosophy. What an exercise in futility.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    I see it as our duty to be moral, strive for wisdom, humility, and compassion, particularly as the most powerful creatures on the Earth, who have the most ability to take care of the Earth's state. A supreme being or force would not need us to acknowledge it, give it worship. It would, if it existed, instead want us to live rightly.
    Well how wise, humble or compassionate are you being when you cannot even recognize and pay homage to the creator of your very existence? Be like not recognizing your mom and dad for caring for you enough to help you on your way to a good life. Would that be wise, humble and compassionate? Hardly. No you're parent don't NEED you, but how would you make them feel if you got on with your life and not paid them any attn? You figure it out, smart guy.


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    You are right, philosophy and spiritual search can become ideological, like with Christianity and the other religions. In fact, it often does. This is not the point. The point is that a governing body, or some other kind of ruling body, stagnates individual growth, key word: individual
    When you are dealing with bodies of people, one's self should take a back seat. You like to be about self tho.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    It does not allow one to gain true wisdom, true understanding, pathless, non-ideological perception: seeing for oneself. Wisdom cannot be organized. The JWs are especially bad because they have an actual body of people that dictate theology and action. This is profound in its opposition to spiritual growth and wisdom.
    All that said, this same group of people have led more to truth than you ever will with your philosophical rhetoric. Their answers are better than yours. Way.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    See for yourself, hear for yourself. Do the work of reaching the truth for yourself. Only you can save you. I might give you some words of advice, but it is ultimately up to you to try to encounter reality.
    I do. No JW becomes one without fully understanding. What you teach is a fail. You are imperfect so therefore so is your philosophy. And that is some more reality for your ass.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And you asked if there are not other Buddhists repeating what I do. I am not a Buddhist, and what I say comes from personal understanding, gained from countless occasions of having sat down to contemplate, engage in readings, conversations, etc., independent of any religion. Sure, there are people that might say similar things, but it is not because I am tied to any organization or because I sit with them to get our stories straight, or because I am told what to say, or listen to what people have written or spoken and then internalize it. If others say what I say, it is mere co-incidence. With you, you say the same thing as others, as the result of a very calculated process. I started off much like you, but the intention was always to go off on my own.
    Commom theme: Doin me son!

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Contrary to your last post, accepting a deity does not determine if one is Good or not, which is why members of your organization commit all sorts of atrocities, in spite of their belief in Jehovah. Others do not, but belief in the deity has nothing to do with their moral understanding of compassion, self-respect, love, loyalty, etc.
    Never said that being good meant knowing Jehovah. Just said there is a limit to how good a person can be without God.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    So... are you going to knock on doors and tell everyone, not just on the web, that is not a JW how they are immoral because of this. Answer the question. And if everyone, outside of your organization, was so immoral, you would be wiped from existence, by the very same governments and people that you call into question.
    No we're not. We try and tell people about God. We don't know the householders moral ethics to speak on it. Even if we did, it's not our place to tell them God's word will.[/quote]

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Oh, so you are saying the bible says that Jesus will return invisibly, to allow everything to continue as it is, in 1914? I haven't seen that in the bible. I know it says that you should stone psychics, like CT Russell. I know that the bible says Jesus is coming back, period, to end things. Period. Not that I believe any of this bunk.
    Have you not read Daniel 2:44?44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

    So this says that in the days of the last Kings on earth, Jehovah will set up his Kingdom. Jehovah is in Heaven, Jesus preached the Kingdom of the heavens, heaven is invisible. And the fact that this verse says "In the days of those kings" That signifies that those last kings will still be ruling for a time since it says in the days, or during their active rule. This explains why things are still jacked up. The Kingdom being set up refers to the remaining 144 k left on earth and the reestablishing of true worship of Jehovah on earth, during the rule of the final Kings of this system. Both are in full swing, while the Kings of the earth are crumbling. That chapter of Daniel had to do with world powers in succession down to our day. Specific ones. We are down to the wire. If you would like me to elaborate, I can.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And lastly, I repeat, your organization is not special, simply because you are not transformed by your practice. Your members, down to the longest standing, and I know a few of these, simply repeat what they are told. They constantly talk about paradise, "doing your own thing," and "the only people who follow the bible." They move into this religion and remain what they become. The very process is full of attachment, identification, labels, just like everything else. There is nothing unique here. Liberation, here, does not exist.
    Lies. You cannot serve Jehovah without a transformation. There were hardened criminals who turned their life around to serve God acceptably. Fornicators becoming model husbands and wives. Selfish ones putting the needs and wants of others before their own. They would not have done this without Jehovah. You're philosophy equals fail, again.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Read for yourself, study the Buddhist texts: Dhammapatta, try the American book, The Gospel of Buddha. Try reading books by Krishnamurti, Ken Wilbur. Expand your understanding and existence.
    Always trying to learn. Sure it will help to know things when I come along the path of an honest hearted Buddhist.

  5. #65
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    You defend yourself throughout this reply, not the JW. If something else was fed to you, you would defend that. So it is not the JW that you defend, it is yourself, which is composed of what you have either accepted or been fed. I say that with all due respect.

    If you did not exist, YOU would not defend the JW and there would be no care, no reaction to my words. This is because it requires YOU (self) to care about what I say. So, you see, this is almost an arbitrary thing: your interest in JW or any religion, this is about your imprisonment, which is the result of living and not unique to any one person.

    Liberation from self is the only path to peace, to rest, to freedom. Even if there is some sort of paradise, you would not be you, if you could somehow reach it, and be made "perfect." You are the imperfections, the stages you move through. And that you is the thing that wants the paradise. If that (the self) was changed, what would YOU want?

    As for any insults, ask yourself, sincerely, what feels hurt? What feels insulted. If you look honestly, you will see that it is you. When I talk about Russell, it is you, when I mention your theology, it is you. It makes you angry and and confused about your beliefs, which you nonetheless reinforce and patch up. But, ultimately, it is not me that upsets you, it is you that upsets you. Until you are free from you, you will continue to suffer, your constant chase of theology is evidence of your unhappiness.

    I will leave things at that. I wish you peace and liberation.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    You defend yourself throughout this reply, not the JW. If something else was fed to you, you would defend that. So it is not the JW that you defend, it is yourself, which is composed of what you have either accepted or been fed. I say that with all due respect.

    If you did not exist, YOU would not defend the JW and there would be no care, no reaction to my words. This is because it requires YOU (self) to care about what I say. So, you see, this is almost an arbitrary thing: your interest in JW or any religion, this is about your imprisonment, which is the result of living and not unique to any one person.

    Liberation from self is the only path to peace, to rest, to freedom. Even if there is some sort of paradise, you would not be you, if you could somehow reach it, and be made "perfect." You are the imperfections, the stages you move through. And that you is the thing that wants the paradise. If that (the self) was changed, what would YOU want?

    As for any insults, ask yourself, sincerely, what feels hurt? What feels insulted. If you look honestly, you will see that it is you. When I talk about Russell, it is you, when I mention your theology, it is you. It makes you angry and and confused about your beliefs, which you nonetheless reinforce and patch up. But, ultimately, it is not me that upsets you, it is you that upsets you. Until you are free from you, you will continue to suffer, your constant chase of theology is evidence of your unhappiness.

    I will leave things at that. I wish you peace and liberation.
    The hell are you talkin about man?

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    The hell are you talkin about man?
    It is not about me, it is about you.

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    I wish you peace and liberation.
    And emancipation.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    You defend yourself throughout this reply, not the JW. If something else was fed to you, you would defend that. So it is not the JW that you defend, it is yourself, which is composed of what you have either accepted or been fed. I say that with all due respect.

    If you did not exist, YOU would not defend the JW and there would be no care, no reaction to my words. This is because it requires YOU (self) to care about what I say. So, you see, this is almost an arbitrary thing: your interest in JW or any religion, this is about your imprisonment, which is the result of living and not unique to any one person.

    Liberation from self is the only path to peace, to rest, to freedom. Even if there is some sort of paradise, you would not be you, if you could somehow reach it, and be made "perfect." You are the imperfections, the stages you move through. And that you is the thing that wants the paradise. If that (the self) was changed, what would YOU want?

    As for any insults, ask yourself, sincerely, what feels hurt? What feels insulted. If you look honestly, you will see that it is you. When I talk about Russell, it is you, when I mention your theology, it is you. It makes you angry and and confused about your beliefs, which you nonetheless reinforce and patch up. But, ultimately, it is not me that upsets you, it is you that upsets you. Until you are free from you, you will continue to suffer, your constant chase of theology is evidence of your unhappiness.

    I will leave things at that. I wish you peace and liberation.
    This is far and away the best post I have ever read from you. All hate aside...props, that **** is deep and rings true. I may need to explore Eastern religious philosophy more as this post and the concepts intrigue me. Would that be categorized as existentialism?

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    This is far and away the best post I have ever read from you. All hate aside...props, that **** is deep and rings true. I may need to explore Eastern religious philosophy more as this post and the concepts intrigue me. Would that be categorized as existentialism?

    If it helped you in some way, I am glad. As for existentialism, labels and definitions are the fruits of the self, they reinforce the self. They seem beautiful, seem to enlighten, but, ultimately, you crash back down to Earth, as a result of them, because self cannot be satiated. If self were to be satisfied, it would cease existing, you would cease existing. It needs to be perpetually acknowledged, built upon, fed, in order to exist.

    Self is a theme in most eastern religion. It is what you call "you," "I," "me." It is the accumulation of experience, affiliation, identification. It causes suffering, anger, conflict, because it clashes with others' selves and does not allow for appreciation of all things (it creates distinctions, likes and dislikes, which makes life dull, repetitive and devoid of true freedom).

    It causes suffering because it is the master of broken promises. You, the self, says it will be happy, when it obtains this or that. However, because it cannot be satisfied (if it were to be, again, it (you) would cease to exist), the self sends you on constant ups and downs, constant quests that lead to dissatisfaction, pain, which drives you to fulfill the self, in the hopes of a magical solution, eternal happiness, which is not possible through self, because self cannot liberate you: self is you, and the you is the problem.

    I learned this from many years of reading and discussing Eastern religion, philosophy and spirituality. There are hints at it in many books: by the Buddha, the Hindu and Zen masters, the Sanyasis, the Swamis, etc., although it was never completely clear to me: I had to experience a realization, before it all became clear.

    I would read this or that book, talk to this or that person, and think I understood the truth, but it was all illusion, a product of self: you cannot understand, contain truth, in words and thoughts, because those are the self. Eventually, in the last few weeks, actually, I realized I had to stop becoming anything, I had to be no-thing. When I truly understood this, I experienced what I had been looking for: liberation, peace, enlightenment.

    The answer was not in self, it was in what self obscures: the not-self, that which accepts all things, which judges nothing, angers at nothing, discriminates against nothing and no one, and wants nothing. It is peace.

    Now, I want to teach what I have found to everyone, because I know it will save anyone who understands it. I have been telling everyone I know about what I have found. This is what I want to do for all people, this is why I have decided to work on this in the future, there is nothing else, now that the self is gone.

    I hope this helps you in someway. But be careful what you ask for YOU might not like what you hear, if you can see what I mean.

    If you want to read some relevant books that can help you understand the ancient wisdom, look for the Gospel of Buddha (written by an American, for the American palate), the Dhammapatta (The Buddha's authentic teaching), the Sutta Nipata (also a universally-agreed upon authentic Buddha text), the Hindu holy book: the Bhagavad Gita, the writings of Ramana and Osho, and anything by Krishnamurti, Ken Wilbur, etc.

    PEACE
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Apr 28, 2010 at 22:59.

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