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Thread: K-Black on Super-Stars

  1. #1
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    Smile K-Black on Super-Stars

    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>
    Originally Posted by Kiyaman

    P.S. When the Knicks first came up with the idea of a 2010 FA Plan.....
    my thoughts were if any Super-Star leave the team that drafted them in 2010 FA it would be on a "sign and trade" deal. Why?

    A Super-Star player do not need the bad publicity that will come from his former team if the organization got nada at the FA departure.
    Agents and Endorsement companies (Nike) would not promote such a departure.
    Which makes Donnie Walsh 2010 Plan a Joke (my bad Walsh has David Lee Agent on the same-page, since he did'nt trade him for the 2008 5th pick LOL).
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Jesus H. Mother-f'ing Christ.

    Newsflash: NOBODY DOES SIGN AND TRADE DEALS ANYMORE.

    Why? Because teams realized they got pennies on the dollar (see: a conditional 2nd rounder for Rashard Lewis) to help a guy get paid more. The reason sign and trades exist is because of the Larry Bird Rules, the home team can pay him more, and then trade him. But teams began realizing "Wait a minute, why are we doing this guy who wants to leave us a favor?"

    A super-star player doesn't need bad publicity for leaving a team as an FA and no sponsor would support it? REALLY?

    Steve Nash?
    Alex Rodriguez?
    Mark Teixeira?
    Jason Giambi?
    Jason Bay?
    Tracy McGrady?

    Any press is good press...Endorsement people care about the bottom line: can they make dollars!!!!!! All that matters is that the player is good, to think that the endorsement company actually gives two ****s about the Cleveland Cavaliers and whether they get something back for LeBron is beyond idiotic. I refuse to believe you are really this thick...just admit you hate Walsh and everything he does and this can all be settled.<!-- / message -->

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Jesus Kiya. Take it easy. I'm starting to wonder if you are rooting for the Knicks to fail, even in free agency.

    And sign and trade deals do happen. They have always been more complicated and difficult to complete than basic free agent signings, but they still happen. Hedo Turkoglu, for example, last free agency was a sign and trade deal.

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    Nyk Logo

    K-Black....none of the players u mention showed any type of super-star status, franchise player status, or worthy of the $$$ contract they received on the previous teams they walked from as a FA.

    Toronto not making the playoffs have me believing Bosh will leave the Raptors. But he will leave on a happy note b/c the Raptors organization did show an effort to build around him withing 6 seasons.
    By leaving on a "sign and trade proposal" to get his 6 year max salary and the Raptors organization getting something in return for losing their Franchise star.

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kiyaman
    K-Black....none of the players u mention showed any type of super-star status, franchise player status, or worthy of the $$$ contract they received on the previous teams they walked from as a FA.
    Jason Giambi was MVP the year before the Yankees got him.

    ARod was the best player in baseball when he left Seattle.

    Steve Nash was a VERY good PG in Dallas before he left.

    TMac got a huge deal in Orlando. Obviouslly they thought he was worth a ton of cash.

    I'd like to continue. But you are just so wrong. On my dick much?

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    Veteran knicksin60's Avatar
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    I wonder how many children under 12 years of age learn new words by reading these forums daily.

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    And LJ to address your point. I don't think complexity is the reason sign and trades are done rarely. Obviously they happen but a team isn't going to do a sign and trade with their best player bc the biggest beneficiary is the player himself who wants to leave the organization.

    Why would the organization, say Cleveland, take half cents on the dollar for LeBron so he could make more money elsewhere than if he just signed via free agency without sign and trade? It makes no sense, really, for the team to do that. Yes, they get something back, but its not even close to reasonable value. A team, I think, is more likely to hold the line and say "if you want all that money, you play here."

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    But down the bottle Kiya. It's still too early in the morning to be drunk.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Jesus Kiya. Take it easy. I'm starting to wonder if you are rooting for the Knicks to fail, even in free agency.

    And sign and trade deals do happen. They have always been more complicated and difficult to complete than basic free agent signings, but they still happen. Hedo Turkoglu, for example, last free agency was a sign and trade deal.
    Donnie Walsh did not have to "SELL" Knick-Fans a "King James Dream" in his first open speech for the Job.
    Knick-Fans were happy for any replacement of Isiah Thomas.

    I agree 100% on the FA Turk deal, it was the same with the Ron Artest for Trevor Ariza FA deal.

    Donnie Walsh got a BIG-MOUTH.....the Knicks 2010 Plan shouldve never been broadcasted publically to the media, no other G.M. was that stupid.
    And last year Walsh big mouth announcing "Stephon Curry" as the Knick draft pick a month before the draft had to be the stupidest move of any G.M..
    Ask yourself did G.S. really need another PG/SG added on their team last season? or did they need a 6.11 bigman Jordan Hill (recall SF-Harrington was G.S. center).
    Or did G.S. draft Stephon Curry out of spite over the "Mullin & Walsh" situation?

    My writing has nothing to do with me wanting the Knicks to fail.....it's just how the Knicks are going about this 2010-Plan that has failure written all over it...

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Jason Giambi was MVP the year before the Yankees got him.

    ARod was the best player in baseball when he left Seattle.

    Steve Nash was a VERY good PG in Dallas before he left.

    TMac got a huge deal in Orlando. Obviouslly they thought he was worth a ton of cash.

    I'd like to continue. But you are just so wrong. On my dick much?
    u r wrong b/c the same rules in Baseball dont apply in Basketball.
    And Steinbrenner made that known to all New Yorkers when it came to the FA market.

    Dirk, Finley, Jamison, and Walker was the top players on the Mavs with two young upcoming stars in Terry & Harris when Nash was a part of the team.
    And T-Mac average 25 mpg his last season playing alongside of his Franchise couzin Vince Carter on the Raptors. Orlando sign Grant Hill first then sign him a side kick T-Mac

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    Veteran knicksin60's Avatar
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    Why do we continue to point the finger at Donnie Walsh? What has he done to deserve such animosity? The guy did the impossible, he cleaned up Isiah Thomas' bathroom mess in less than 2 years.What NBA executive do you know would be able to accomplish such a task in such a short period time? I am not going to praise him for the Mike D'antoni signing nor will I call Jordan Hill a wonderful draft pick, but to say that Donnie Walsh is not a good GM is like saying Pam Anderson doesn't have a nice figure.You have to be completely on the crack pipe or just mentally challenged to rip Donnie Walsh excessively.

    Why can't some of you Knick fans fill out applications to be NBA employees? How about call up MSG and ask them if the Knicks need any interns? Because it is beyond ridiculous how any average sports fan could think that they know more than the actual people operating the machine.There is a reason why some of us are just basketball marks while others are being paid a good salary to make important decisions for a billion dollar franchise.

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    Originally Posted by knicksin60
    Why do we continue to point the finger at Donnie Walsh? What has he done to deserve such animosity? The guy did the impossible, he cleaned up Isiah Thomas' bathroom mess in less than 2 years.What NBA executive do you know would be able to accomplish such a task in such a short period time? I am not going to praise him for the Mike D'antoni signing nor will I call Jordan Hill a wonderful draft pick, but to say that Donnie Walsh is not a good GM is like saying Pam Anderson doesn't have a nice figure.You have to be completely on the crack pipe or just mentally challenged to rip Donnie Walsh excessively.

    Why can't some of you Knick fans fill out applications to be NBA employees? How about call up MSG and ask them if the Knicks need any interns? Because it is beyond ridiculous how any average sports fan could think that they know more than the actual people operating the machine.There is a reason why some of us are just basketball marks while others are being paid a good salary to make important decisions for a billion dollar franchise.
    NBA has more politics and brother in laws working in it then any government.
    Clueless Isiah Thomas cleaned up all of Layden players too, within 2 years.
    It's called "Tearing down and Starting over".
    Layden did it in 2000
    Isiah did it in 2004
    Walsh did it in 2008

    Out of the three G.M. which one raised the selling price of the Knick organization for buyers.....check the stock market?

  12. #12
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    Great post, Kiyaman. I agree. That is another reason why the 2010 plan is going to be very difficult to work in the Knicks' favor.

    Like I and many posters have said before, teams are not going to let their star players go for free. They are going to first try and keep their stars, by offering them a huge extension, and then if they still want out, they'll sign and trade them.

    I think the Knicks might be able to get Amare Stoudamire or Rudy Gay, but it is not going to be easy to get anyone, since most teams are going to either try and keep their players or sign and trade their players.

    Looking at things without bias is not wanting the Knicks to fail, so I don't see where some people get that from.

    Kiyaman is one of the best posters here, and he's been watching the Knicks longer than anyone on here, so I doubt he's rooting for the Knicks to fail.

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Great post, Kiyaman. I agree. That is another reason why the 2010 plan is going to be very difficult to work in the Knicks' favor.

    Like I and many posters have said before, teams are not going to let their star players go for free. They are going to first try and keep their stars, by offering them a huge extension, and then if they still want out, they'll sign and trade them.

    I think the Knicks might be able to get Amare Stoudamire or Rudy Gay, but it is not going to be easy to get anyone, since most teams are going to either try and keep their players or sign and trade their players.

    Looking at things without bias is not wanting the Knicks to fail, so I don't see where some people get that from.

    Kiyaman is one of the best posters here, and he's been watching the Knicks longer than anyone on here, so I doubt he's rooting for the Knicks to fail.
    abcd...that's not the argument. Kiyaman said that the reason we won't get anybody is because sponsors don't want the guy (LBJ, Wade, whomever) to get bad publicity.

    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    my thoughts were if any Super-Star leave the team that drafted them in 2010 FA it would be on a "sign and trade" deal. Why?

    A Super-Star player do not need the bad publicity that will come from his former team if the organization got nada at the FA departure.
    Agents and Endorsement companies (Nike) would not promote such a departure.


    Nobody is doubting that the Cavs, Heat or whomever are going to try to keep their best players by offering as much as they possibly can. Nobody is doubting that is a hurdle that needs to be overcome. You would be foolish not to think that, there's no reason for the Cavs, Heat to offer LBJ, Wade as much as possible, those guys are the franchise.

    But to say the SPONSORS wouldn't support an LBJ to NY move because the Cavs got nothing in return for LBJ is absolutely ludicrous and borders on insane. The reason sign-and-trade deals are done is not EVER to appease sponsors, it's because the player is trying to get as much money as possible, but wants to skip town. That is their only option. To say the sign-and-trade is done at all because the sponsors don't support a move without the hometown getting something in return is absolutely idiotic.

    Sponsors have stuck by guys that have had bad press for leaving town without giving the team that groomed them anything back (ARod). Sponsors feed off the hate, the "negative" publicity. Tiger Woods perhaps got the worst publicity we could have seen in quite some time, and Nike is STILL feeding off it.

    Again, to clarify...and broken down slowly and easily:

    Sign-and-trades occur mostly for the player's benefit. A player will be able to make the max money under the Bird Rules AND leave town. "Getting something in return" is a farce, I know of no sign and trade that has brought back any significant value, and no sign and trade that has brought back even .50 on the dollar. Correct me with an example if this is wrong.

    Nobody is doubting teams are going to TRY and keep their players, there's no reason not to, I think you would be foolish to argue otherwise.

    But to say sign-and-trades have anything to do with sponsors not wanting bad publicity is beyond ludicrous.

    The only benefit for a team to give a player his sign and trade is for the fans not to revolt. But any fan who actually, I don't know, takes a look at a sign and trade deal, knows why it was done and that it's a total joke. Teams shy away from it nowadays because they do the player who wants to leave town a favor.

    A smart team, in my opinion, would hold the line and say "You want to make the most money possible, you stay here...we aren't exploring a sign-and-trade." The fact is, in negotiations, teams with Bird Rights have the upperhand on players...they can say "We can give you this money, everyone else can only give you much less than that."

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Great post, Kiyaman. I agree. That is another reason why the 2010 plan is going to be very difficult to work in the Knicks' favor.

    Like I and many posters have said before, teams are not going to let their star players go for free. They are going to first try and keep their stars, by offering them a huge extension, and then if they still want out, they'll sign and trade them.

    I think the Knicks might be able to get Amare Stoudamire or Rudy Gay, but it is not going to be easy to get anyone, since most teams are going to either try and keep their players or sign and trade their players.

    Looking at things without bias is not wanting the Knicks to fail, so I don't see where some people get that from.

    Kiyaman is one of the best posters here, and he's been watching the Knicks longer than anyone on here, so I doubt he's rooting for the Knicks to fail.
    Ultimately, it comes down to the player. Yes, their current teams have the advantage of offering 1 more year. But people act like their current teams can offer them an exorbitant amount of money more than the Knicks, and that is not true.

    If an unrestricted free agent wants to sign with another team, there is nothing holding them back. Their current team can't stop them. Hence, the term "unrestricted".

    Nobody has been saying that we're guaranteed to get a super-star. Everybody is aware that there is a risk involved with the 2010 plan.

    abcd, your recent respect and maturity is noticed and greatly appreciated. You provide great insight into these matters. But I have to disagree with you about Kiya. Expressing concern about the 2010 plan is one thing, but Kiya goes beyond reasonability. He just flat out sounds insane half the time and rarely backs up his outrageous claims with any facts.

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    Member KNICKMATIC809's Avatar
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    donnie walsh never said nothing about the 2010 free agents his goal when he came in as gm was to clear salary cap the media on the other hand tried to hype it up like they always try to do ....as a gm i give donnie a B+ the guy came in and got rid of these crazy contracts isiah left us and yea some people might say they would come of the books 2011 but do you really think we would of won a championchip with jamal & zbo i think not....

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