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Thread: Altruism in animals

  1. #46
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You can't say only Jehovah's special people can interpret the bible. That's a cop out.
    Not according to scripture. All the writers of the bible were servants of God. Every person God ever backed were servants of his. Anyone with an understanding of God's word, were prophets or servants of his. Today, JW serve him unlike any faith on earth. So it should come as no surprise that they have the most sound biblical understanding on earth. Why? The theme would indicate having Jehovah's backing and therefore he allows them to understand his word as his servants. You are constituting yourself an enemy of God, so why would he help you as his enemy understand his word? You must concede and humble yourself to gain understanding. Hopefully one day soon that happens.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Provide evidence that only Jews died in Jerusalem. Provide evidence that only Christians fled. I provided actual historical and factual information on the seige, cited with links containing contradictory facts that many jews and christians fled and their reasons for doing so. You only provided wild statements backed up by nothing. You can't just say Jews died, Christians didn't, it's history. Provide actual historical information that agrees with this theory.

    In earlier threads, you said Josephus said that only Christians fled for reasons he was not aware. I searched the Antiquities and did not find it. Provide the citation so it can be verified.
    Never said Josephus spoke of Christians fleeing for no reason. What I did say was that the Roman army was called off for no apparent reason according to him, during the first attempt


    Historian Flavius Josephus relates: “Cestius [Gallus], aware of neither the despair of the besieged nor the feelings of the people, suddenly called off his men, abandoned hope though he had suffered no reverse, and flying in the face of all reason retired from the City.” (The Jewish War, II, 540 [xix,
    7]) Why did Gallus retreat? Whatever the reason, his retreat allowed Christians to obey Jesus’ command and flee to the mountains and to safety.
    8 Obedience was lifesaving. Before long the Romans moved to crush the revolt. The campaign under General Titus climaxed in a siege of Jerusalem from April to August 70 C.E. It chills one’s blood to read Josephus’ description of how the Jews suffered. Besides those killed fighting the Romans, other Jews were slaughtered by rival bands of Jews, and starvation led to cannibalism. By the time of the Roman victory, 1,100,000 Jews had died. Of the 97,000 survivors, some were promptly executed; others were enslaved. Josephus says: “Those over seventeen were put in irons and sent to hard labour in Egypt, while great numbers were presented by Titus to the provinces to perish in the theatres by the sword or by wild beasts.” Even as this sorting out took place, 11,000 prisoners starved to death.




    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    This is why your side fails every time. You only provide opinions. Nothing verifiable. Opinions are like *******s, everybody's got one. I don't need to hear yours anymore. Provide evidence. If you can't, then keep your mouth shut on the subject.
    There is ample. You ignore it.

  2. #47
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    What bible have you cited here please?
    I generally look at several versions when researching bible quotes. But these are from the New International Version and Contemporary English Version.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    This is irrelevant.

    Why is it irrevelant that the bible is wrong? Rather convienent for you to say. The bible says god created domestic animals. This is wrong.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Neanderthal was absolutely human to many scientists. If it can mate with us, it is of our kind. Unlike a monkey which we cannot mate with. So, I'd have to conclude that Neanderthal was a kind of human. Unlike a monkey who is a kind of simian.

    Mountains of evidence that convince you. You saying neanderthal is not human but can mate with us sounds ridiculous to me. Cuz you can't go knock up your friendly neighborhood gorilla anytime soon. Why? Because you are not the same kind. Period.
    I guess you don't understand speciation, which is the foundation for evolution.

    Do you consider a zebra a horse?

    I suppose that must be the basis for your hypothesis. If something can breed with another it is the same. Please provide documentation of this. Or is this just your opinion?

    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    First, God is not coming down. He can accomplish everything where he sits. And yes... We will see.
    Yep, you will see. You've got less than 10 years now. Time is ticking. I will keep reminding you. You will see. It won't happen. I know this with 100% certainty. When this happens you will realize you've wasted your whole life.

  3. #48
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Why is it irrevelant that the bible is wrong? Rather convienent for you to say. The bible says god created domestic animals. This is wrong.
    No, it's irrelevant that we domesticated animals. Moses could have been speaking on mankind's behalf. Either way, that is at best a minute point, which holds no relevance.




    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I guess you don't understand speciation, which is the foundation for evolution.

    Do you consider a zebra a horse?

    I suppose that must be the basis for your hypothesis. If something can breed with another it is the same. Please provide documentation of this. Or is this just your opinion?
    Maybe I don't. I don't pretend to know it all. I've never heard of a half Zebra half horse either. Never knew they could breed. However, They are very similar. A lot closer than say a man and a monkey.

    I guess I would suffice to say horse and Zebra are of the same kind like Neanderthal and homosapiens



    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Yep, you will see. You've got less than 10 years now. Time is ticking. I will keep reminding you. You will see. It won't happen. I know this with 100% certainty. When this happens you will realize you've wasted your whole life.
    I doubt I would say I wasted my life, I would however likely be upset over it. But what happens when they start banning religions? What will you do?

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    Default @ Paul

    You said it is quite obvious that he was not the son of God, or better known as the Messiah....were or how is it quite obvious???
    I want to address this one question...the concept of biblical messiah comes from the Old testament. Well lets look at what the Old Testment says and how it PROVES that the messiah has yet to come. (provided you believe in this story)

    JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
    A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28). Did not happen
    B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Did not happen
    C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) Did not happen
    D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). Did not happen

    The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.


    That's what we call...check mate!

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    What's also comical is that people who believe in Jesus as a messiah often don't embrace what he preaches. That said, can someone explain why the story of Jesus is an almost exact copy of the story of Horus...a deity that predated Jesus by thousands of years:

    1. Both were conceived of a virgin.

    2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)

    3. Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.

    4. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.

    5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.

    6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).

    7. Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.

    8. Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).

    9. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.

    10. Both births were announced by angels (this si nto the same as number 7).

    11. Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.

    12. Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".

    13. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.

    14. To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."

    15. When Horus came of age, he had a special ritual where hsi eye was restored. When Jesus (and other Jews) come of age, they have a special ritual called a Bar Mitzvah.

    16. Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at this coming-of-age ritual.

    17. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.

    18. Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan.

    19. Both were baptized at age 30.

    20. Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.

    21. Both Anup and John were later beheaded.

    22. Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.

    23. Both Horus and Jesus successfully resist this temptation.

    24. Both have 12 disciples.

    25. Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.

    26. Horus "stilled the sea by his power." Jesus commanded the sea to be still by saying, "Peace, be still."

    27. Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (Note the similarity in names when you say them out loud. Further, Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)

    28. Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Livanu (literally, "house of Anu").

    29. Both gods delivered a Sermon on the Mount.

    30. Both were crucified.

    31. Both were crucified next to two thieves.

    32. Both were buried in a tomb.

    33. Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).

    34. Both had their resurrection announced by women.

    35. Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.

    36. Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").

    37. Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.

    38. Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).

    39. Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.

    40. Horus was born in Anu ("the place of bread") and Jesus was born in Livlehem ("the house of bread").

    41. "The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the following prophecy: 'Out of Egypt have I called my son.'" (See Point 13)

    42. Both were transfigured on the mount.

    43. The catacombs of Rome have pictures of the infant Horus being held by his mother, not unlike the modern-day images of "Madonna and Child."

    44. Noted English author C. W. King says that both Isis and Mary are called "Immaculate".

    45. Horus says: "Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." And Jesus says: "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."

    46. Horus was identified with the Tau (cross).

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N

    JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
    A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28). Did not happen
    B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Did not happen
    C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) Did not happen
    D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). Did not happen

    The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.


    That's what we call...check mate!
    Actually the Bible does speak of a second coming as it says the must die for our transgressions first. This is why some of the Jews of his day thought he was going to usher in the new system then. Forgetting he had to die first.

    Also all of those things have happened.

    Preaching work is in full blast throughout the world.
    There is total peace and harmony among the nations of God's people.
    Jehovah has repurchased his people. But not to natural Israel, but the Israel of God, or spiritual Israel.
    And the temple is figurative, referring to the above.

    Natural Israel is far from a Theocracy. They are part of the U.N. You think God backs the U.N.? Then he most certainly does not back a country involved.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Actually the Bible does speak of a second coming as it says the must die for our transgressions first. This is why some of the Jews of his day thought he was going to usher in the new system then. Forgetting he had to die first.

    Also all of those things have happened.

    Preaching work is in full blast throughout the world.
    There is total peace and harmony among the nations of God's people.
    Jehovah has repurchased his people. But not to natural Israel, but the Israel of God, or spiritual Israel.
    And the temple is figurative, referring to the above.

    Natural Israel is far from a Theocracy. They are part of the U.N. You think God backs the U.N.? Then he most certainly does not back a country involved.
    Honestly, it's clear that you will spin **** to fit your narrative no matter what is posted. Jesus did die yet none of those things happened. Dieing does not equal a second coming. If it did then we would be waiting for Jesus's third coming...

    FYI, none of those things I said did happen. If you have to contort and bend logic to jam a meaning behind events then it should be a clue that your beliefs are flawed.

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    Don't you see that your beliefs are predicated on logical leaps? It's not literally Israel but the spiritual Israel...it's not a literal temple but a spiritual one. Who made those interpretations? You? Another flawed human? How convenient that every hole poked in your story is met with a spin that can't really be defined.

    Oh, and no there most certainly isn't total peace and harmony amongst nations of god whether figuratively or literally. Face it, your beliefs hinge on contorting facts, misrepresenting quotes and supplanting logic with faith. Go ahead and have faith...just don't pretend like you are coming form a position of logic or historical fact.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    No, it's irrelevant that we domesticated animals. Moses could have been speaking on mankind's behalf. Either way, that is at best a minute point, which holds no relevance.
    No it's not irrelevant. It's not that we domesticated animals, we actually created domestic animals. Through artificial selection. Cows did not exist before we controlled and began breeding bison-like animals. Same with dogs. They did not exist. They share a common wolf ancestor. Further evidence of evolution. In a very short amount of time (hundreds to thousands of years), we were able to drastically change animals through artificial selection. Evolution accomplishes the same thing through natural selection but over an immense period of time (millions to billions of years).

    The bible said that god created domesticated animals. This is false.

    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Maybe I don't. I don't pretend to know it all. I've never heard of a half Zebra half horse either. Never knew they could breed. However, They are very similar. A lot closer than say a man and a monkey.

    I guess I would suffice to say horse and Zebra are of the same kind like Neanderthal and homosapiens



    Same as human and Neanderthal. Different genetics, same genus but different species.

    Who ever said a monkey and man could mate? Noone has ever suggested that. Why is this necessary for you? Again, it has to do with speciation, the basis (driven by natural selection) of evolution. As species diverge, the longer time/distance they are apart from one another, the more seperate the species becomes and the less able they are to mate.

    And what about Homo heidelbergensis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, Homo habilis, etc? Same genus as humans - Homo sapiens, but different species. These were not all humans. Homo habilis was much more "monkey-like" but still had fire and tools, walked upright, ect.

    There is not just monkey or man, as you falsely claim. There were definite intermediary species.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    What's also comical is that people who believe in Jesus as a messiah often don't embrace what he preaches. That said, can someone explain why the story of Jesus is an almost exact copy of the story of Horus...a deity that predated Jesus by thousands of years:
    This is rather amazing. Nice find. I knew there were many similarities but I had no idea there were THAT many.

    More evidence against Christianity. It keeps piling up. We haven't even begun to go into the ridiculousness of the whole story and how illogical it is.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; May 06, 2010 at 20:07.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    This is rather amazing. Nice find. I knew there were many similarities but I had no idea there were THAT many.

    More evidence against Christianity. It keeps piling up. We haven't even begun to go into the ridiculousness of the whole story and how illogical it is.
    LOL, yea it is pretty amazing. Funny how the world works sometimes. I mean what is more likely...a power structure wanted to solidify power by borrowing stories from the past or a magical perfect being came down from the heavens who was so perfect his one and only mission failed.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    LOL, yea it is pretty amazing. Funny how the world works sometimes. I mean what is more likely...a power structure wanted to solidify power by borrowing stories from the past or a magical perfect being came down from the heavens who was so perfect his one and only mission failed.
    Yeah, it also makes perfect sense that the hebrew messiah would follow an egyptian god.

    Check this out. Funny, yet makes a good point. How come Jesus only performed the exact same miracles that every other god that came down before him performed? If he truly was the son of god, he could have accomplished much more and would have easily convinced everyone to worship him. You would think an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, perfect being would have seen this misapprehension.





    Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force form your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

    Makes perfect sense.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Honestly, it's clear that you will spin **** to fit your narrative no matter what is posted. Jesus did die yet none of those things happened. Dieing does not equal a second coming. If it did then we would be waiting for Jesus's third coming...
    Jesus resurrection constituted his first and only death and rise. So I'm lost as to how u are figuring a third coming.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    FYI, none of those things I said did happen. If you have to contort and bend logic to jam a meaning behind events then it should be a clue that your beliefs are flawed.
    What contortion is there, guy? It's not that tough to comprehend if you were truly trying to.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Don't you see that your beliefs are predicated on logical leaps? It's not literally Israel but the spiritual Israel...it's not a literal temple but a spiritual one. Who made those interpretations? You? Another flawed human? How convenient that every hole poked in your story is met with a spin that can't really be defined.

    Oh, and no there most certainly isn't total peace and harmony amongst nations of god whether figuratively or literally. Face it, your beliefs hinge on contorting facts, misrepresenting quotes and supplanting logic with faith. Go ahead and have faith...just don't pretend like you are coming form a position of logic or historical fact.
    JW do not travel outside of the bible for understanding of scripture. Spiritual Israel, or Israel of God is spoken of biblically and understood by the writers to mean of heavenly lore. For instance, Jesus is spoken of as being the High Priest of the Temple. If this is true then it has to have a figurative meaning for us because he rules from heaven. We could not then literally see him offer his body as a sacrifice for us. That is why I say he accomplished that feat because he is king in heaven. The Bible says the world will never behold Jesus no more. So anyone thinking they will literally see him come down on a cloud has not understood the bible as well as they believe.

    And again, stop speaking so quickly and look again. There is absolutely a peaceful nation of worshipers of God. How can he be called the God of peace if his people are not at peace? But they are! No racial tensions, no warring factions. In fact, anyone saying God has not brought peace to his people is blind as a bat. It has been accomplished. JW live in what can be termed true peace. If the rest of the world lived by Jehovah's rules, they'd too be at peace. But as it so happens, only 7 million or so want to actually listen to God.

    So it's no surprise you miss it.. But it is surprising that one could be that haughty while doing so.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Yeah, it also makes perfect sense that the hebrew messiah would follow an egyptian god.

    Check this out. Funny, yet makes a good point. How come Jesus only performed the exact same miracles that every other god that came down before him performed? If he truly was the son of god, he could have accomplished much more and would have easily convinced everyone to worship him. You would think an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, perfect being would have seen this misapprehension.
    First, Jesus is not, nor ever will be God. He does not want the job even. Secondly, you're forgetting the role of the enemy here. Horus and any other deity story is part of the propaganda machine of the enemy. Also, none of them actually existed besides Jesus. There is proof of Jesus existence and just stories of Horus. And on top of that, Jehovah already sent a massive blow to Horus with the plagues on Egypt. Horus stood by and watched.

    And lastly, no he would not have convinced everyone to worship God. Not with free will and Satan's tactics. As good a teacher as Jesus was, He was only able to convince a relative few of the truth, even though the whole nation was supposed to be God's own people!! That is how blinding Satan can be. So imagine how much more effective he can be for those who do not believe in God?

    I will take nothing away from your secular educations and what you guys base your life around, but it is quite obvious that you check all that at the door when considering the Bible.





    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force form your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

    Makes perfect sense.
    Christianity: The worldwide Christian society of people who actively bear witness regarding Jehovah God and his purposes affecting mankind. They base their beliefs solely on the bible.

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