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Thread: Altruism in animals

  1. #16
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    And there is the dodge. It has been explained thoroughly to you, you understand and it hurts to be wrong. Good day.
    But according to your logic a prophecy is fulfilled when the actions are happening right now but the actual event has not yet occurred. This is the exact same thing with my prophecy! Therefore it is fulfilled!! You should be worshipping me.

    And I have been over and over and over with you about how 1.) you are misinterpreting this prophecy (like all the others) 2.) you are taking bits of the prophecy and not the whole thing (like all the others) 3.) taking lines out of context (like all the others) and 3.) how this cannot be used as a fulfilled prophecy because the actual events have not happened and you can not say because you follow what the bible tells you to follow equals a fulfilled prophecy.

    But this is what you guys do. All the time. I am amazed, and quite amused really, that I can interpret the bible better than you, the one who claims to understnd the bible better than anyone. Just ironic and kind of funny.

    I mean really. What kind of ass backwards logic are you trying to sell here? Or do you just need to be the biggest, most gullible dumbsh*t on the plant to follow that crap.

    And you are the one dodging. You have been explained thoroughly and proven wrong without doubt. It's not drawings. You are referring to the initial drawings of Neanderthal made over 100 years ago based on the first, incomplete skulls. More skulls and skeletons have been discovered and what you see now is based on reconstruction. Scanned into a computer and based on physical structure. Tools they did not have 100 years ago. The technology and understanding is much better now than 100 years ago. And there have been multiple discoveries since then that agree with these findings. And you always seem to ignore the biological and genetic evidence too. Why? So, your monkey man is proven fact and has been shown to you. You should be admitting you are wrong now.

    Yet you have zero evidence. In fact this thread was created because you and Paul have made the false claim that humans are the only ones to display altruism. Once again, your claims without evidence are disproven with facts and evidence. That's how this works and why I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that you are wrong.

    Oh, by the way, where is god? How come the world is not destroyed yet? Still waiting.

    You will learn. I realize facts and evidence are not enough for you. I mean, look at what you believe. Based on zero facts and evidence, and all the irrefutable facts and evidence prove what you believe to be wrong. So that is why I will continue to remind you that God is not here and the world has not been destroyed. I will continue this for the next 10 years. That is the only way you will learn.

    And my prophecy of your life crumbling when you discover you are wrong 10 years from now will come true. I guarantee it. I am patient. I can wait 10 years for your worship. Nervous?
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Apr 27, 2010 at 18:59.

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    You cannot apply that verse to any other people on earth. I didn't make it happen, the Watchtower society did not make it happen, Jehovah did.

    So the best you can do is rant and rave about bits and pieces, even tho this prophecy thoroughly describes one people all you wish. Jehovah's witnesses are more united as a people than your esteemed scientists and there so called facts of evolution that they can't agree on.

    For all your rhetoric, Jehovah has still managed to do something all of your majestic science has not. And that is to bring people from all walks of life to be a truly loving and united people. No other faction on earth can say the same.

    You should refer to this thread you were conveniently absent for. Shatters a lot of what you believe

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    None of your monkeys prove anything.

    You keep thinkin you have it figured. We'll keep watching the world fall apart and try to help as many as we can.

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Exclamation Reply

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You believe that we have to telepathically tell an invisible being that we love him because we are inherently evil because a woman made from the rib of a man was convinced to eat a fruit by a talking snake.

    You are the fool claiming to be wise. You have zero evidence. You have not once shown irrefutable evidence to support your claims. And I have. I base my beliefs on facts. Irrefutable facts. You base your beliefs on impossible stories with zero evidence. Not a shred. Zero. Zilch. Fool.
    Look at yourself. I didn't call you a fool, the Apostle Paul called you a fool in Romans 1:22 and then you call me a fool....the Bible has powerful words doesn't it? Words that bring conviction to everybody, even you.

    You claim there is no evidence...I really don't want to argue with close minded mocking atheists(even Richard Dawkins is more open minded than what you've shown to be on this website).
    Because you said "zero evidence" let me just defend My Lord Jesus Christ real quick....

    I'll make the claim Jesus existed...a few historians who back me up that was not an apostle, or prophet in scripture that you would blow off as being a witness? I'll name a couple but not all of them...Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Phlegon, Lucian of Samosta all talk about Christ existing and being crucified during the reign of Tiberius and at the hands of Pontius Pilate.

    All this takes is lowering your pride and doing some research.

    A little taste of archeological evidence....From the radio show "The Book and The Spade" by Gordon Govier and Keith Sohoville.
    An inscription at a Roman theater in Caesarea Martima reading, "Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judea".
    An inscription found in Northern Israel mentioning King David's dynasty. The inscription is the oldest reference to any Biblical figure outside the Bible.
    The discovery of an ossuary, a stone box used for retaining bones of the deceased, inscribed with the name of Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the trial of Jesus shortly before his crucifixion.
    From the Jerusalem Christian Review
    JERUSALEM - Israeli archeologists have uncovered a 1st century cave, in a suburb south of Jerusalem, which served as a tomb to a family of disciples of Jesus Christ.

    The burial cave, carved in the mountainside, off the Kidron Valley, contained several coffins, with names engraved on their sides, as well as signs of the cross. These inscriptions identified the cave as the burial vault of the Barsabas family. This family is well known to us, since several of its members are mentioned in the book of Acts. The tomb remained hidden for nearly 2000 years.

    Eminent Jerusalem Historian, Prof. Ory N. Mazar, states that "at least some members of this family were among the very first disciples of Christ."

    This is an archaeological find of Peter's house in Capernaum [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Okay you got a little taste of Jesus and the people during the crucifixion existing, and I even through in Peter's house for you which is only 1 of the many findings.

    There is even a whole medical evalutation to the death of Jesus....
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    LJ I barely even tried on this one.

    I found one site...it shows plenty of evidence.

    Some more facts you should be aware of- The Bible was written from 66 different authors, a time period of over 1,000 years of recorded events with archaeological evidence supporting the time span of events that took place...consisted of people with many different backgrounds ranging from a common fisherman like Peter to an intelligent high ranking Pharisee like Paul along with tax collectors etc, so these people were not all poor with no education and they were tortured and martyred, even be-headed for something they knew existed or else they would have given up, they didn't and got killed, justifying that what they saw they knew was true.
    Most of the world shuts out the possibility of a God because all they think about is the miracles and ignore the simple stories, locations, events in the bible that were true and accurately documented...once the pieces add up and the evidence builds, you have no choice but to believe or else you would be fooling yourself.

    If you knew God existed would you submit to Him? That's a hard question, especially since most humans are loaded with pride and don't want to bow to no one, not even if they knew God existed.

    This will obviously piss you off and challenge you entirely, which is why the story of Jesus makes any unbeliever mad at Him, just like the Pharisees were. He challenged the world and how they went about their business and He told them that they were wrong, people don't want to hear they are wrong even when they are convicted, so they killed him and continued their sin and desires.

    No man was ever like Jesus and no story was ever as powerful or as influential as His. You know this to be true. Did you know Jesus loved every person that mocked, spit, and tortured Him in his last day on Earth? "Forgive them Father for they do not know" he said. He asked God the Father to forgive them!!! Now ask yourself why.

    Think about it LJ.....

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    WTF? I make a thread displaying an amazing and heroic dog to prove how altruism exists in animals.

    This was made to refute the claims that altruism only exists in humans. Which have been made in an attempt to disprove evolution.

    But they can't even acknowledge that altruism exists in animals after these videos. How am I supposed to debate these people? Evidence right in front of their eyes and they can't accept it.

    The fact that they can't even admit they are wrong about altruism really shows how stubborn they really are and how pointless it is to even debate them. I have wasted far too much time on these knuckleheads.

    Like I said, the only way they will realize they are wrong is when god has not come down. Eventually they have to see this. Hopefully.

    K4yfe. I can't wait until 10 years from now. I look forward to the excuses you come up with to rationalize your beliefs being wrong. That will be enjoyable.

    Paul, I have never argued that the man Jesus has not existed. It is however, quite obvious he was not the son of god. And you need to look into history before you make claims that no man was ever like Jesus. The whole story was copied from other religions created before Christianity.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Apr 27, 2010 at 20:23.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Oh, and one more thing. Where is god? How come he hasn't come down yet?

    Still wating.

    K4lyfe, You have 9 years, 11 months before your whole world comes crashing down on you. Nervous?
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Apr 27, 2010 at 20:24.

  6. #21
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    What version of "god botherer" are you Knicks4lyfe?

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Oh, and one more thing. Where is god? How come he hasn't come down yet?

    Still wating.

    K4lyfe, You have 9 years, 11 months before your whole world comes crashing down on you. Nervous?
    Not nervous, saddened.

  8. #23
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Default One chapter to show why Jesus is the Son of God

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    WTF? I make a thread displaying an amazing and heroic dog to prove how altruism exists in animals.

    This was made to refute the claims that altruism only exists in humans. Which have been made in an attempt to disprove evolution.

    But they can't even acknowledge that altruism exists in animals after these videos. How am I supposed to debate these people? Evidence right in front of their eyes and they can't accept it.

    The fact that they can't even admit they are wrong about altruism really shows how stubborn they really are and how pointless it is to even debate them. I have wasted far too much time on these knuckleheads.

    Like I said, the only way they will realize they are wrong is when god has not come down. Eventually they have to see this. Hopefully.

    K4yfe. I can't wait until 10 years from now. I look forward to the excuses you come up with to rationalize your beliefs being wrong. That will be enjoyable.

    Paul, I have never argued that the man Jesus has not existed. It is however, quite obvious he was not the son of god. And you need to look into history before you make claims that no man was ever like Jesus. The whole story was copied from other religions created before Christianity.
    Let's just clarify what happened....you talked with your chest out and guns drawn saying there was no evidence for anything...I showed evidence that Christ existed and that the stories in the bible were accurate to historical findings.

    I agree that you never did make the claim that Christ never existed but I wanted to make it clear in case you did believe that since many atheists believe he never existed.

    You said it is quite obvious that he was not the son of God, or better known as the Messiah....were or how is it quite obvious??? Since WE NOW KNOW by giving you a little bit of evidence that the historical accuracy of the Bible is very accurate....we can look at books that were written 700- 500 years before Christ like Isiah...

    Check this out LJ

    Isiah chapter 53 describes a coming Messiah and what would happen in his life.....before reading, think of the story of Jesus Christ and then read this chapter and honestly tell me if this is not talking about Christ...
    1Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?(A part of the lord being revealed=The Son, one of the three parts of the Trinity)
    2For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.(Christ was never looked at as being a man of beauty or good looking)
    3He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (The Jewish people and the Pharisees despised and rejected him as being their Messiah, and they "Esteemed him not" and they never accepted and/or respected Him or His purpose)
    4Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. (He was born FOR US...He born in order to carry our sins to the cross..smitten by God and afflicted was another way of saying that God needed someone to suffer and as it's said in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son(Jesus) that whoever believes in Jesusshall not perish but have eternal life"
    5But he was wounded for our transgressions(tortured because of our sin), he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.(stripes=the marks from the whippings by the Roman guards...we are "healed" or saved because of his strips)
    6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way(Like you, everyone who rejected Christ did it because he or she wants to go their own way and not God's way); and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.(Again oppression and affliction was the main theme of the crucifixion of Christ...if you watch the Passion of the Christ..Jesus never spoke up for himself or opened his mouth)
    8By oppression and judgment he was taken away(He was taken away to be crucified because of the false judgement by the Jewish people and the Pharisees); and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.(Another interesting prophecy that was fulfilled, Jesus was buried in a grave yard of rich wicked or sinful men and his grave was paid by a rich pharisee named Nicodemus, Jesus never committed any violence and never spoke of deceit)
    10Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him(God the Father needed someone to pay for everyone's sin); he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin(Jesus was the sacrifice or better known as the Sacrificial Lamb that was slaughtered for me and you LJ), he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand(The will of the Lord was to sacrifice Jesus to make it known to the world that prophecy would be fulfilled and that we are only saved through Christ); 11he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
    Okay LJ.....if your a big researcher like you claim to be...then analyze and observe this chapter very carefully and compare it to the life of Jesus Christ....you will see how amazing this is....remember that this chapter was written from 700-500 years before the birth of Christ!

    So there is my evidence and my argument that Jesus is the Son of God....what do you think about all of this?

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Paul, there is no point in debating you or K4lyfe any more. Both of you can't even admit you were wrong about altruism in animals. Both of you made the false and uneducated claim that humans were the only altruistic beings and used this to try and back up your claims that humans are special and made by god.

    I provided clear evidence in opposition of that claim and the fact that neither of you can admit your errors shows how irrational the two of you are. Debating an irrational person is pointless. I might as well beat my head against a wall.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Apr 29, 2010 at 12:21.

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Paul, there is no point in debating you or K4lyfe any more. Both of you can't even admit you were wrong about altruism in animals. Both of you made the false and uneducated claim that humans were the only altruistic beings and used this to try and back up your claims that humans are special and made by god.

    I provided clear evidence in opposition of that claim and the fact that neither of you can admit your errors shows how irrational the two of you are. Debating an irrational person is pointless. I might as well beat my head against a wall.
    LJ first off don't associate me with a Jehovah's Witness, they are as lost as an Atheist is when it comes to biblical knowledge of who Christ really is. In fact it is worst.

    Second, it seems like you clearly coped out of this conversation by going back to the Altruism in Animals thing. Yes I never talked about it but you changed the topic when I said one biblical quote, thus you must have expected me to back myself up.

    I gave you evidence after you said I have none and I am a fool. I gave you plenty of evidence to look at, with Isiah 53 basically being a full filed prophecy that was spoken about 700-500 before Christ and in detail.

    Don't ignore my post and then tell me your banging your head against the wall. Doesn't that sound ignorant to you?

    If your going to constantly make these threads to try to disprove God then be sure to answer any off topic discussions.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    LJ first off don't associate me with a Jehovah's Witness, they are as lost as an Atheist is when it comes to biblical knowledge of who Christ really is. In fact it is worst.

    Second, it seems like you clearly coped out of this conversation by going back to the Altruism in Animals thing. Yes I never talked about it but you changed the topic when I said one biblical quote, thus you must have expected me to back myself up.

    I gave you evidence after you said I have none and I am a fool. I gave you plenty of evidence to look at, with Isiah 53 basically being a full filed prophecy that was spoken about 700-500 before Christ and in detail.

    Don't ignore my post and then tell me your banging your head against the wall. Doesn't that sound ignorant to you?

    If your going to constantly make these threads to try to disprove God then be sure to answer any off topic discussions.
    Paul, I would gladly debate a rational person about the so-called evidence in the bible. But you are not rational.

    You have stated in the past that humans are the only altruistic beings, in an attempt to make it seem like humans are special and created by god. I provide irrefutable evidence proving that claim false, and you STILL can not admit you were wrong. This post only further makes you look irrational.

    If you admit you were wrong about the thread topic, then that will show you are rational and I will provide actual biblical evidence that contradicts and disproves Isaiah 53 as a fulfilled prophecy. I will also provide additional irrefutable evidence that Jesus was not the son of god. But if you can not admit you were wrong, then what is the point of debating with you? It will only show that video documentation you view with your own two eyes (i.e. irrefutale evidence) is still not enough.

    So you see? I would be wasting my time debating you. I could show you a video of god himself saying Jesus was not his son, and you would still not believe it. So I might as well bang my head against a wall instead of debating you. Both would accomplish the same thing.

    And retrace the steps here. I was debating K4lyfe about the evidence for human evolution. You jumped in and called me a fool, therefore I responded with anger. You never addressed the topic of the thread, just called me a fool. And don't hide behind the bible quote by saying the Apostle Paul called my a fool. Now that is a cop-out.

    If you are saying the Apostle Paul called me a fool and not you, then you are saying you disagree with the Apostle Paul. Which then I would have to ask, why did you post it in the first place? If you agree with the Apostle Paul, then you are calling me a fool. And to say that the Apostle Paul calls me a fool but you don't is a clear insult to my intelligence. So piss off.

    And for your information, I don't create threads trying to disprove God. I have only provided factual evidence that contradicts anti-evolution misinformation, strengthens the theory of evolution, or contradicts the religious invention of god. There is a difference. So if you are going to jump into these debates, maybe try debating the evidence at hand instead of just randomly jumping in and calling me a fool.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Apr 29, 2010 at 19:57.

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Paul, I would gladly debate a rational person about the so-called evidence in the bible. But you are not rational.

    You have stated in the past that humans are the only altruistic beings, in an attempt to make it seem like humans are special and created by god. I provide irrefutable evidence proving that claim false, and you STILL can not admit you were wrong. This post only further makes you look irrational.

    If you admit you were wrong about the thread topic, then that will show you are rational and I will provide actual biblical evidence that contradicts and disproves Isaiah 53 as a fulfilled prophecy. I will also provide additional irrefutable evidence that Jesus was not the son of god. But if you can not admit you were wrong, then what is the point of debating with you? It will only show that video documentation you view with your own two eyes (i.e. irrefutale evidence) is still not enough.

    So you see? I would be wasting my time debating you. I could show you a video of god himself saying Jesus was not his son, and you would still not believe it. So I might as well bang my head against a wall instead of debating you. Both would accomplish the same thing.

    And retrace the steps here. I was debating K4lyfe about the evidence for human evolution. You jumped in and called me a fool, therefore I responded with anger. You never addressed the topic of the thread, just called me a fool. And don't hide behind the bible quote by saying the Apostle Paul called my a fool. Now that is a cop-out.

    If you are saying the Apostle Paul called me a fool and not you, then you are saying you disagree with the Apostle Paul. Which then I would have to ask, why did you post it in the first place? If you agree with the Apostle Paul, then you are calling me a fool. And to say that the Apostle Paul calls me a fool but you don't is a clear insult to my intelligence. So piss off.

    And for your information, I don't create threads trying to disprove God. I have only provided factual evidence that contradicts anti-evolution misinformation, strengthens the theory of evolution, or contradicts the religious invention of god. There is a difference. So if you are going to jump into these debates, maybe try debating the evidence at hand instead of just randomly jumping in and calling me a fool.
    By altruism you mean concern for others....when did I ever say that humans were the only altruistic beings? I don't even use that word in discussions.

    Animals do seem to be altruistic in the sense that they care for one another, like a family, I don't know what your trying to imply by making this an anti-god thread with altruistic animals being an argument.

    And hey if the bible says your a fool than you already know I agree with it, not trying to be insulting but don't ask questions when you already know the answer. That category of fools spans wide from the person with a 2 IQ to the very intelligent person like Richard Dawkins. All in all, yes I believe enough is revealed for any person to understand who Christ really was. The question is if you saw or felt something uniquily powerful with scripture, that you couldn't explain, would you even consider believing it? This is the big wall that comes up between a true follower of Christ and anyone that doesn't believe. And/or you haven't seen enough to believe. Most people want their own freedom and the bible is seen as a book of laws, when that is false. Christ came to free every follower from the laws in the old testament, thus Christ began a new covenant. A covenenat based on faith in Christ.

    And you made an aggressive claim saying "you have no evidence, zilch, none, fool" You saw the little evidence I supplied so why do you rule out the bible entirely? You saw the parallels between the Messiah that Isiah was talking about to Christ. Identical.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    You never shown me the monkey man. You've shown me primate or homo species, every time. One or the other. You know better. Actually on facebook getting updated on my weekly evolutionary discussion. Pretty good stuff on both sides. But still, no monkey man.

    However, Isaiah 2-4 did happen to come true.
    A simple Google search can easily prove the bible wrong:

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    This clearly shows evidence of evolution and multiple hominid species. If you are talking about the "missing link" that is irrelevant as other records clearly show the transition.

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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    By altruism you mean concern for others....when did I ever say that humans were the only altruistic beings? I don't even use that word in discussions.

    Animals do seem to be altruistic in the sense that they care for one another, like a family, I don't know what your trying to imply by making this an anti-god thread with altruistic animals being an argument.
    Altruism, as in actions that may be harmful to the individual but benefit another. Selfless acts. Yes, you have never used the term altruism, but I specifically remember you, in an attempt to argue against evolution, stating that humans are the only creatures to sacrifice themselves to save another. K4lyfe has also made this claim.

    Making this thread was to 1.) show the amazing footage and to marvel in it and 2.) to disprove the claim that humans are the only altruistic beings. A claim made by many in an attempt to make humans seem special and seperate from the animal kingdom (i.e. made from god not from evolution). I tried to stay out of another pointless debate with irrational people, but it was inevitable. You guys are stubborn and just won't let facts and evidence stand for themselves.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    And hey if the bible says your a fool than you already know I agree with it, not trying to be insulting but don't ask questions when you already know the answer.
    What the f*ck does this mean? So why did you try to hide from calling me a fool by saying "I didn't call you a fool, the Apostle Paul called you a fool"?

    Wait. You are not trying to be insulting by calling me a fool?!? WTF?!? Hey, you're a douchebag. I'm not trying to insult you, but you're a douchebag.


    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    And you made an aggressive claim saying "you have no evidence, zilch, none, fool" You saw the little evidence I supplied so why do you rule out the bible entirely? You saw the parallels between the Messiah that Isiah was talking about to Christ. Identical.
    Ok now. Onto your claim that Isaiah 53 is a fulfilled prophecy about Jesus.

    This is the problem with christians like yourself and K4lyfe. I have done this several times with K4lyfe's prophecies. You guys don't read the entire passages and look at the context in which they were meant. Isaiah 53 is referring to the suffering servant. If you were to just look at the preceding passage you would see that Isaiah 53 is a continuation of the narrative from chapter 52. So, who is the suffering servant? Now, if you look at the entire context in Isaiah, it seems to be in reference to the people of the nation of Israel. The servant that Isaiah speaks of in 53 is consistently described in preceding verses 41:8, 44:1, 44:21, 45:4 and 49:3.

    This narrative is then continued in Isaiah 54.

    He is your Creator and husband,
    and he will rescue you.
    6You were like a young wife,
    brokenhearted and crying
    because her husband
    had divorced her.

    But the LORD your God says,
    "I am taking you back!
    7I rejected you for a while,
    but with love and tenderness
    I will embrace you again.

    8For a while, I turned away
    in furious anger.
    Now I will have mercy
    and love you forever!
    I, your protector and LORD,
    make this promise.



    The bible is filled with metaphors. Obviously here Isaiah is not referring to an actual person, but again referring to the nation of Israel.

    Like the metaphor in 53:1 "the arm of the lord". This does not mean Jesus or the trinity. It means the power of the lord. Here is the contemporary english version of this verse:
    1Has anyone believed us
    or seen the mighty power
    of the LORD in action?



    Much, if not most of Isaiah seems to be speaking of Israel, saving it and returning it to power. Which would make a great deal of sense considering the time in which it was written. It seems to fit nicely with the view that Israel, though innocent, was taken captive by the Gentiles, who mocked and abused God's chosen people. And to make Israel a guilt offering for the transgressions of the Gentiles.


    I must admit though. There are some confusing passages in Isaiah 53 that do not seem to make sense if you think of it referring to the nation of Israel. As you have pointed out, they do seem to follow the life of Jesus. But there are also some passages that do not make sense if you think of it as referring to Jesus. For example,

    10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
    he has put him to grief;
    when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
    he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;

    This part in bold does not follow the story of Jesus at all. And God did not crush Jesus. This just doesn't make sense.

    Also, in 53:7 it states that:
    He was silent like a lamb
    being led to the butcher,
    as quiet as a sheep
    having its wool cut off.


    Although Jesus does stay silent at most of his trial in Matthew, Mark and Luke, he definitely speaks up in the gospel of John, conversing both with the high priest and with Pilate.

    There are definitely some serious contradictions. Which is not surprising since the bible contradicts itself in many places.

    Overall, I can say that there are some correaltions with the story of Jesus. But when put into the entire context, it is clearly debatable. Definitely not irrefutable evidence.

    You also have to take into account the possiblity of self-fulfilling prophecy. Jesus himself refers to the old testament many times in his teachings (which I will later show as evidence for him not being the son of god).

    And it is well documented of the embellishments of several gospels (particularly of the book of Matthew) to make it seem as though the story of Jesus followed many of the hebrew prophecies of the messiah (which are actually ancient Pagan stories passed down-which I will also later show as evidence for Jesus not being the son of god).

    When I have time, I will reply with the evidence that proves Jesus is not the son of God. That evidence, as well as the irrefutble evidence that proves evolution to be true and the bible false, as well as the fact that the christian religion does not follow any logic or reason whatsoever cannot be ignored. Don't you ever question the logic of it all? It doesn't make any sense and it doesn't follow reality in any way.

    But I realize this will not be enough to convince you. The only way for you, and K4lyfe, is to grow old and still not see the end of the world that you are looking forward to seeing. As time keeps passing, and more and more evidence keeps piling up that refutes christianity, eventually a rational being would have to come to terms with it. But then, I don't believe any rational, educated person can actually believe in christianity.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; May 01, 2010 at 00:46.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    A simple Google search can easily prove the bible wrong:

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



    This clearly shows evidence of evolution and multiple hominid species. If you are talking about the "missing link" that is irrelevant as other records clearly show the transition.
    And I will refer you here which for some apparent reason all the evolutionists on board here seem to be inconspicuosly absent.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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