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Thread: What is the purpose of rebuilding if players don't want to play for losing teams?

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    Veteran knicksin60's Avatar
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    Default What is the purpose of rebuilding if players don't want to play for losing teams?

    The national sports media has failed to acknowledge the Knicks as a possible destination for Lebron James and other free agents because they make it seem like the irrelevancy and the underachieving history of the Knicks will be a turn off for superstars who want to win championships right away.Giving the Knicks a chance at improving their roster this summer, even though Donnie Walsh has worked very hard for over 2 years just to clear cap space, is something that these people feel uncomfortable doing.Sometimes I wonder if these NBA journalists have personal biases against the Knicks and are writing them off as a result of it or if they're writing the Knicks off because they really believe that NBA franchises could only rebuild themselves through drafting the right players and making the right trades.

    So if NBA superstars don't want to play for losing teams such as the Knicks, are the Knicks wasting their time concentrating on the 2010 free agent class? Is it absurd for any NBA franchise that has a losing track record to offer maximum contracts to superstars who only care about playing for championship contenders? I'm sure that Donnie Walsh's plan of rebuilding the Knicks won't only rest upon signing free agents.But in order for this plan to be a success Walsh has to make the Knicks seem attractive for these players to want to sign with them.My main concern is that there is a great possibility that most of these free agents don't really care about playing on the big stage of NY because they would rather play for a team that is one superstar away from winning multiple championships.There is also the possibility of these free agents not wanting to wait on each other in order to sign with a team.

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    Veteran knicksin60's Avatar
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    Some questions are just never meant to be answered.

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    This post point out the facts.
    A post describing the Knicks "new regime" situation.
    The optimistic Knick-Fan see this article as a threat to their fantasy dream.

    Sometimes I wonder if these NBA journalists have personal biases against the Knicks and are writing them off as a result of it or if they're writing the Knicks off because they really believe that NBA franchises could only rebuild themselves through drafting the right players and making the right trades.
    Well, 99 out of 100 successful teams use that route to become contenders and win championships. The FA market has always been the last piece of the puzzle, never the first piece.

    I'm sure that Donnie Walsh's plan of rebuilding the Knicks won't only rest upon signing free agents. But in order for this plan to be a success Walsh has to make the Knicks seem attractive for these players to want to sign with them.
    The thought has crossed many minds 2 years ago.
    The 2008 new regime will start to rebuild through draft & trades to attract top players in the 2010 FA market without adding any big long contracts to the team in the next two seasons.
    After 2 years of the new regime decision-making, Isiah's 33 win Knicks showed more attraction to the top FA market than both of Walsh 2 seasons.
    And thats bad.

    Donnie Walsh has worked very hard for over 2 years just to clear cap space
    Now that is a lie and very hard to prove. Walsh laid back doing nothing for two straight years.
    Walsh did not work hard to clear cap space when he inhereted over $62M of the Knicks $100M salary cap that was expiring after the 2009-10 season (100-62= $38M salary cap). Do the math!
    Walsh 4th month on the job he denied a trade with the Clippers for Zbo's 3 yr contract for nothing in return, which wouldve made the minus $62M into a minus $76M of expiring contracts after the 2009-10 season.
    Walsh let the Clippers give their cap space deal to the Denver Nuggets for Camby. And then 2 months later traded Zbo and our backup defensive PG-Collins for two ridiculous unused 2 yr contracts (Mobley & Tim Thomas) to the same Clippers. RED-FLAG (Isiah/Layden type of trade).

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    Veteran knicksin60's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    This post point out the facts.
    A post describing the Knicks "new regime" situation.
    The optimistic Knick-Fan see this article as a threat to their fantasy dream.



    Well, 99 out of 100 successful teams use that route to become contenders and win championships. The FA market has always been the last piece of the puzzle, never the first piece.



    The thought has crossed many minds 2 years ago.
    The 2008 new regime will start to rebuild through draft & trades to attract top players in the 2010 FA market without adding any big long contracts to the team in the next two seasons.
    After 2 years of the new regime decision-making, Isiah's 33 win Knicks showed more attraction to the top FA market than both of Walsh 2 seasons.
    And thats bad.



    Now that is a lie and very hard to prove. Walsh laid back doing nothing for two straight years.
    Walsh did not work hard to clear cap space when he inhereted over $62M of the Knicks $100M salary cap that was expiring after the 2009-10 season (100-62= $38M salary cap). Do the math!
    Walsh 4th month on the job he denied a trade with the Clippers for Zbo's 3 yr contract for nothing in return, which wouldve made the minus $62M into a minus $76M of expiring contracts after the 2009-10 season.
    Walsh let the Clippers give their cap space deal to the Denver Nuggets for Camby. And then 2 months later traded Zbo and our backup defensive PG-Collins for two ridiculous unused 2 yr contracts (Mobley & Tim Thomas) to the same Clippers. RED-FLAG (Isiah/Layden type of trade).

    I agree with almost everything you say.They're many Knick fans painting this illusion of the Knicks jumping from being a 29 team to a 60 win team right after Lebron James and Chris Bosh sign their max contracts with them.I don't want to turn this into a D'antoni thread but the only positive thing that will come out of the Knicks striking out this summer is that the chances of Mike D'antoni being fired will increase.If the Knicks are a 29 win team next season you know that Walsh will be looking for a new head coach.He brought this guy to the Knicks because of his ability to coach superstars and without superstars D'antoni is a below average coach and a poor man's version of Don Nelson.

    I just have the feeling that the Knicks will end up rebuilding through trades.I could be wrong, but when was the last time an NBA superstar wanted to play for a team that experienced 9 straight losing seasons? How come the only people who say that the Knicks are a better fit for Lebron than the Heat and Bulls are Knick fans? Do people actually believe that Lebron, Bosh or Wade will be thinking Knicks even though every person knows how depleted the Knicks roster is right now?

    For the past few years the Knicks have been one of the main teams that's provided other NBA teams with draft picks, cap space and missing pieces.Unless the Knicks find a way to sign a superstar this summer, we will go at least one more year watching them trade sub par players for other players of the same caliber.Don't mean to sound so pessimistic but I would hate to see the Knicks enter the 2010-11 season with nearly the same core of players that they had last season minus David Lee and Al Harrington.

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    @ Knicksin60...

    The "national" media doesn't mention LBJ to the Knicks for multiple reasons starting with:

    1. Everyone loves to hate NY (even some NYers)
    2. They rarely "go out on a limb" and would rather print what they feel the concensus feels3. They either forgot or never were aware of what quality BB @ the garden would mean

    You exhibit what I call the Stern "Brainwashing" and that is the thought that every team has a chance to win a chip- all they have to do is build through the draft and make wise tades.

    History says different and few would acknowledge this. ONLY a limited few big market teams have a chance at a chip and almost no one can repeat multiple time.

    PLENTY of teams tried drafting major talent to make the PO's and be denied... why?

    More importantly you must realize the 1st step is just making the playoffs... that's really not hard in the NBA where basically 7 to 10 guys contribute (2 of which are "stars" on playoff teams) and

    this can be achieved by adding one or two new players in a matter of minutes. That's what you can expect from NY- no matter what we should have 1 to 2 stars that would almost guarentee a PO spot. F*ck what the media says!

    @Kiya...

    why must we continue to cry over spilled milk? I felt that way about Lopez, Jennings and even D'Ant- but what's done is done.

    One flaw in that thinking is that it is/was no guarantee that had those moves been made differently that anything would be better. It's just an assumption based on hindsight.

    I said we should wait til tip off 2010 to judge (grade) D'Ant & Walsh... but really it's more like spring 2011 when and if we make the playoffs- which should be our next goal after shopping and drafting.

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    @Red: I think that the grading has to start sometime after July 1st, after the dust settles and we see what chips end up where. Then i think the next grade can be given out at the tip off of the season, the next at the all-star break and the one that will really be telling will be at/after the playoffs.

    @Knicksin60:
    Certainly many teams build via the draft, but a lot of success has come from big FA signings. Just look at Boston. They were a scrub team with 1 big name player (Pierce) and a losing record. Then KG comes along and recruits Ray Allen to come with him to the celtics and BAM instant playoff bound team that ended up winning the chip that season.

    So I think it has already been illustrated very recently that under the current league CBA, you can rebuild via the free agency market. But a lot of it has to do with the stars aligning and special circumstances and opportunities being available. For example if there was still a team in Seattle, would ray allen have joined the celtics giving them their third option and speading the floor enough that Pierce and KG could do well, leading to an NBA championship???

    @Kiyaman: The odds are not with the knicks. you are actually being fairly realistic in his pessimism of the 2010 plan. The chances of us getting 2 of the MAx FA's to join forces in NY... well it's really a crap shoot. We are rolling the dice here. We have made as much of the circumstances as favorable as we can. We have enough cap space for some very big talent to come here (2 or 3 big name FA's will come here, regardless of if it's the lebron jackpot or plan b, c, d, etc). We have a US Olympic team coach who got great reviews from a lot of this years FA class. We have an organization ready and willing to throw money at their problems. Donnie Walsh has moved all distractions away from the team. It is basically at a blank slate now ready for a new era of Knicks basketball.


    In conclusion we are in the friggin basement of the NBA as an organization. We are putting our eggs into a one year basket and hoping the basketball god smile upon us. It's not necessarily the best or smartest way to rebuild, but i think it's an ambitious NY Knicks plan that shakes things up.

    And the fact of the matter is, if it can't get any worse... it can only get better..... right?

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    Originally Posted by Red
    @ Knicksin60...

    The "national" media doesn't mention LBJ to the Knicks for multiple reasons starting with:

    1. Everyone loves to hate NY (even some NYers)
    2. They rarely "go out on a limb" and would rather print what they feel the concensus feels3. They either forgot or never were aware of what quality BB @ the garden would mean

    You exhibit what I call the Stern "Brainwashing" and that is the thought that every team has a chance to win a chip- all they have to do is build through the draft and make wise tades.

    History says different and few would acknowledge this. ONLY a limited few big market teams have a chance at a chip and almost no one can repeat multiple time.

    PLENTY of teams tried drafting major talent to make the PO's and be denied... why?

    More importantly you must realize the 1st step is just making the playoffs... that's really not hard in the NBA where basically 7 to 10 guys contribute (2 of which are "stars" on playoff teams) and

    this can be achieved by adding one or two new players in a matter of minutes. That's what you can expect from NY- no matter what we should have 1 to 2 stars that would almost guarentee a PO spot. F*ck what the media says!

    @Kiya...

    why must we continue to cry over spilled milk? I felt that way about Lopez, Jennings and even D'Ant- but what's done is done.

    One flaw in that thinking is that it is/was no guarantee that had those moves been made differently that anything would be better. It's just an assumption based on hindsight.

    I said we should wait til tip off 2010 to judge (grade) D'Ant & Walsh... but really it's more like spring 2011 when and if we make the playoffs- which should be our next goal after shopping and drafting.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksin60
    The national sports media has failed to acknowledge the Knicks as a possible destination for Lebron James and other free agents because they make it seem like the irrelevancy and the underachieving history of the Knicks will be a turn off for superstars who want to win championships right away.Giving the Knicks a chance at improving their roster this summer, even though Donnie Walsh has worked very hard for over 2 years just to clear cap space, is something that these people feel uncomfortable doing.Sometimes I wonder if these NBA journalists have personal biases against the Knicks and are writing them off as a result of it or if they're writing the Knicks off because they really believe that NBA franchises could only rebuild themselves through drafting the right players and making the right trades.

    So if NBA superstars don't want to play for losing teams such as the Knicks, are the Knicks wasting their time concentrating on the 2010 free agent class? Is it absurd for any NBA franchise that has a losing track record to offer maximum contracts to superstars who only care about playing for championship contenders? I'm sure that Donnie Walsh's plan of rebuilding the Knicks won't only rest upon signing free agents.But in order for this plan to be a success Walsh has to make the Knicks seem attractive for these players to want to sign with them.My main concern is that there is a great possibility that most of these free agents don't really care about playing on the big stage of NY because they would rather play for a team that is one superstar away from winning multiple championships.There is also the possibility of these free agents not wanting to wait on each other in order to sign with a team.
    superstars also love fame, money, and a "King" type of lifestyle and anyone can see optimism for the Knicks, they can have an entire new team when the season starts filled with young talent and possibly free agents...everyone rules out the Knicks when I put myself in the athelete's shoes and say, "If I were to play in this city and make them better I would be loved beyond anyone else in the NBA." Its true.

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    I agree. The Celts got two great FA after a 24-win season, and they dominated. I think LBJ is too smart to let the media influence his decision.

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    Yeah. The Celtics were an EVEN WORSE team the year before the arrival of KG and Allen. And they STILL had a superstar caliber player then!

    We don't have a superstar caliber player and we're STILL good enough to churn out 29 wins, the Celtics only won 24 in a much weaker Eastern Conference with a much better roster.

    LeBron isn't dumb. He's smart enough to know that if he comes to our team and brings Chris Bosh along with him we're instantly championship contenders.

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