I figured out who D looks like....
tooo........
Cliff Clavin from Cheers
That's funny coming from you, it truly is. If my points were such garbage surely you could respond, but you didn't. It's clear I laid out several points and backed up my assertions with videos and quotes. You came into the thread and contributed absolutely nothing and everyone can see that. My names are a carry over from the other thread where you started talking **** and thinking just because you are an old man that you know more. I responded with a thorough logical beating of all your points and you ran away claiming to put me on ignore. SO now this is twice where you fail at being able to actually debate me...
At the end of the day it comes down to winning. Short rotation, offensive-minded, whatever whatever...at the end of the day if we were 50-32 nobody would be saying peep. But we weren't. At the end of the day, it all comes down to wins, all D'Antoni's flaws (and flaws any coach has) are magnified with losses and minimized with wins, so at the end of the day it all the criticism boils down to one sentence, "He didn't win games"
Nobody has answered how on earth you can blame a guy for not winning games while coaching a team that was trying to audition players for trade bait rather than trying to win.
Also, I agree with Trill in the sense that, if his points are such utter garbage then they would be easily debunk-able. So far, no one has really tried to do that.
wowza
i have to chime in here, as I have NOT been a fan of 'Antoni these past couple years, and I've normally supported Kiya's and Trillion's POV's; they put so much time and heart into their postings, alas, it becomes a waste of energy when they go at each other, but each has valid points.
I think we can win with this coach, and with this team. The squad has upgraded defensively AND talent-wise, we're much bigger with a lot more depth. How can anyone predict what's going to happen based on the depleted Knick teams these past 2 years? Before Donnie traded Zbo and Crawful, Ant-man had the team playing well at start of season. Sacrifices had to be made to get Knicks in position for this year's offseason, and we HAVE improved, tremendously, NO DOUBT. Just the fact that Duhound is gone, replaced by a solid starting PG should bring at least another dozen wins. Antoni's winning teams have always been predicated on a smart starting PG, and Feltip fills that need. Knicks now have one of the best power forwards in the league (STAT), one of the best shooting forward's in the league (an improved and healthy Gallipini) a couple of centers, and a slew of decent new and old players, most of whom play defense (Turiaf, Randolph, Weedson, Zazubookie), the basics are back in place, and the team is in a position to win. Plus, Ewing is back in the fold! Joy!
I will always be critical of 'Antoni's ego, his benching, short rotation, not fouling at end of games, lack of plays, etc... but I have to believe his heart was not into it, esp with the hand he was dealt. THIS YEAR we shall see what type of coach Mr. Pringles really is. I'm excited for everyone: KO fans, coaches, players, commentators, etc. There is a sense of enthusiasm I haven't felt in years, so my answer is YES, we can win with this a$$hole coach.
There is a long line of coaches.
Just look what coaches Del Negro, Skiles, and Adelman did for their teams in the past two seasons.
Mike Dantoni started off bad in New York by DNP a $23M per Marbury the first 4 games of the season. I will agree with Dantoni for the first 3 games of DNP b/c of a past conflict between the two. The discipline level of the Knick roster was high by making Marbury come off the bench plus being DNP the first 3 games.
The Knicks had a .500+ winning discipline roster the first 3 games of the 2008-9 season.
DNP Marbury after the 3rd game became above unruly punishment, which showed weakness on the headcoaches skills in dealing with over-paid star players.
Marbury & Nate tandem coming off the bench was a great combination of deep depth players in our backcourt along with SF-Chandler giving us 3 slashers to the rim.
Making the playoff by playing .500+ b.ball in 2008-9 season wouldve gave us the chance to trade 3 of the 4 contracts going into the 2010-11 season in the 2009 offseason.
We already know GM Walsh is terrible selecting draft picks from Indiana to New York. So tanking shouldve never been in our plans.
Winning and show casing the four players under contract in 2010-11 season shouldve been our plan the past 2 seasons.
Okay, explain a few things to me since its clear you cant respond to my previous posts in a cogent way:
How would Marbury and N8 coming off the bench be an effective lineup?
Don't they play similar styles and don't both need to dominate the ball?
Do you put any of the blame on Marbury? Are you aware of the fact that he has caused trouble all across the league and is so good that he is now playing in China?
How does making it to the playoffs ensure we could have traded 3-4 contracts?
Walsh drafts badly? Hmmm...
Reggie Miller at I think 11th
Gallo
Nabbed Al Harrington with the 25th pick
Plus don't you cry in almost every thread about Hill another Walsh draft pick?
Yea he is horrible!
P.S. You are still ignoring the fact that we were trading players to clear space and D'ant could have made the playoffs with Zbo/Crawford had we decided to go that route. Not only did we take back inferior talent with expiring contracts but the team chemistry was disrupted with each trade. I know none of that matters since your hatred for D'ant is just the latest in your pessimistic outlook that you yourself admitted started in 1999.
I said that the players were ahtletic slashers, so I gave Mike that as an excuse. Mike D needs shooters andonly Gallo/Walker were that type of player. But everything else was due to his failure as a coach. His substitutions were horrible, his choice of benching rookies that were clearly better than our washed up veterans was a horrible choice.
His lineups of Lee at Center cost us atleast 15 games last year. What is the point of hainv Lee at Center when he would give up 40+ points in the paint easily?
And then this is the funniest thing about defending D'Antoni. What was his excuse almost every game for his team not performing well?.......wait for it.......ENERGY. Is that even an excuse? If your team is on a road trip that is a straight week and the last game of the road trip your team is dead tired, ok I understand, but every time you lose a game it's because of energy?!??!
And you remember the interviews after games when people would ask Mike D what was the reason his team lost. The answer would usually be...."I don't have an answer" with a chuckle(fake laugh) which Mike D always does. OR it would be "We didn't have enough energy out there and got beat"
He is over rated and the only thing he has to his name is a fast paced offense.
Again, I am giving this guy one more chance.
If we don't make the playoffs this year, Mike D is a failure for the 6 million a year he is recieving. And he will be fired. Tell me if he is worth 6 million a year? If that is true than Tom Thibodeau is worth 10 mil.
First off, Jeffries obviously likes Mike D because ONLY Mike D would play him starter's minutes. No other team would and as I said, Jordan Hill TOOK OVER his spot when both guys got traded to Houston. So when it comes down to it, Mike D's respect for veterans over shadowed the fact that the rookies were clearly better.
Hill was bad? HE BARELY PLAYED lol ANd how long did it take D'Anotni to stop playing Duhon, who was probably rhe worst PG in the NBA last year hands down? Douglas did not get minutes until after the all star break....a little to late.
Also I have to mention the horrible decision to lie to the fans about Marbury's "clean slate" and never play him resulting in another saga. That might have also been Donnie Walsh's call but Mike D lied, and Marbury did blame Mike D. So Mike D is partial blame for that huge mistake.
Yes Mike D'anotni's system killed Chandler and Duhon's shot. Because they were not good shooters and yet Mike's system was to just hustle and chuck up shots. Chandler wound up playing a shooters game when he is obviouslly a slashing/post up SF who should use his strength to get to the hoop.
Duhon in his first year was good, because he would drive to the hoop, draw multiple fouls every game and hit his free throws. SO when he would drive to the hoop for the pick and roll, teams had no clue what he was doing. BUT last year Duhon never drove to the hoop, never drew fouls, instead he would do a pick and roll or just stop and pop. He became predictable even to me, who is not a pro basketball player. Point guards guarding Duhon last year must have laughed when guarding him: "okay here comes the pick and roll or I'll just wait for him to drive and pass it out to someone at the three point line." Duhon sucks and got worse when he stopped driving to the hoop thanks to Mike D's run and chuck style.
Chandler eventually learned to play HIS game and not Mike D's game and at the end of the season before his injury, started to get consistent and shoot at a high percentage. I think Chandler shot 26% from three point land and 47% from inside the three, so why did he constantly shoot three's?!?! The coach is to blame for telling him to stop too late.
Lee was not the only option at Center. Again wether you follow Mike D's assumption that benching Hill every game was more productive than getting killed in the post with Lee and Jeffries, is what I am trying to figure out. Did you honestly agree with his decisions on substitutions and the lineups??? Did you support never playing Darko Millicic, a 7 foot legit center who is now the starting center for the T Wolves????
Mike D never gave Jordan Hill or Darko Millicic a chance to play center. He gave Jeffries the keys when he never deserved it. I hope you understand this.
I'll agree that he would foul a lot but he was a good rebounder, strong, and could hit an open shot, had athleticism and we were honestly wasting our 8t overall pick to get Jeffries minutes so we could showcase him for a trade, yes show case. Do you really think any team would take Jeffries if we not getting starter's minutes? NO team would deal with him.
Now with the argument of the system. I said in my first response that we did not have the shooters that D'Antoni needed and Amare is a better post presence than what Lee was so this year Mike D has all the pieces to be succesfull. He has good shooters in Gallo, Mason, Walker, Azubuike, Douglas, Felton, and even Amare has a nice mid range shot. Amare can draw defenders away from the shooters hopefully turning the low shooting percentages into better shooting percentages.
And let me mention that Mike D made Chris Duhon and Al Harrington the leaders of the team last season, both wound up being role players, with Duhon not even playing for a month due to his poor play. How can you make Harrington and Duhon the leaders when only Lee was the consistent Knick the past two season? Mike D hurt this team more than you can imagine the past two seasons.
Now I have not condemned Mike D this year....yet. I condemn the guy the past two seasons for getting nothing out of our players. His strategies failed and he caused problems inside the club house by benching Larry Hughes who could acutally play defense, by benching Nate who was better than Duhon, by benching Darko who was a legit Center unlike Jeffries and Lee. Would those players have made us a playoff team? No but we would not have been an utter embarissment like we were the past two seasons. Embarissment, remember the many games of wondering what the hell was happening on the side lines and on the court?
Oh I forgot to mention....he is getting paid 6 million dollars a year.
Remember that.
Last edited by Paul1355; Sep 03, 2010 at 14:09.
Paul.... Great Post
I made these same facts in our Game-Threads where it was obvious for all
viewers, but mentioning it in game thread after game thread made me a
Dantoni Hater.
And Walsh gets no points from letting Dantoni DNP our highest payed players
(Marbury & Hughes) longer than the first 3 games of the season. Whatever
point Dantoni was trying to get across only took 3 straight DNP, after that it
is considered personal-conflict on Dantoni's part.
Donnie Walsh trading Zach & Crawford was bad bad "time-ing", when the
same teams he traded those players to wanted to make the trade during the
offseason. So why have Zach & Crawford a strong part of our rotation in
training-camp/preseason games/and our starters at the start of the regular
season games? and then to trade Zach & Crawford when Knick fans were so
happy at finally starting the season with an above .500+ record the first 10
games (7-5 record) of the season. Didnt Walsh know its been over a
decade since Knicks got off to a great start of the season above .500+???
Since when do expiring contract players stop trying to overachieve their
performance in their final contract year? u may have one out of 20 players.
Our 4 game win streak was Larry Hughes outstanding performance.
Darko & Nate had some great performances on the teams we traded them too.
Harrington did not overachieve he stayed at his career role as the 3rd option
on offense with a 17 pt, 5 rbd performance.
D.League Earl Barron gave us a double-double performance in each game he
played for us.
David Lee really overachieved by having a 20-11 season.
u may think that one player out of 20 was Duhon performance, it could be
true, but Duhon was not given a starting SG or energy Nate playing SG off
the bench last season to take pressure off his back like the previous season.
Interesting debate
I posted this question hoping to get a feel for where Knicks fans are at and I can say there are some real points on both sides. As for D'Antoni's Defense, when i originally said his lack of emphasis on defense and rebounding i did not mean that he did not preach it but rather the personal he tends to assemble and utilize often lack the skill sets needed to provide his teams with just that.
I felt his innovative use of Jared Jeffries as the anchor of the zone defense shows that he has some defensive competence. Where I find fault is in his reluctance to incorporate good 2 way players into his rotation. Hopefully with players like Randolph, Chandler, Turiaf and Felton we will have some semblance of a playoff defense. If you look at recent championship contending teams, they weren't necessarily all good defenders but they had role players that could lockdown their position and help out: Posey, Ariza, Artest, Battier, Barnes often are under-appreciated as crticial pieces to title runs. While Felton, Gallo and Amare comprise our big offensive "3" I am looking for D'Antoni to give substantial consideration to the defensive weapons in his possession; in particular Randolph who I have grown to appreciate as a do it all role player/potential star.
He's shown this ability in the past tho w players like Diaw, who can defend and is solid on O. He used to let Diaw guard Duncan in the post w decent success. The Spurs didn't have a player who could guard him cause he could cause havoc inside and outside. D'ant used to use him really effectively. Raja Bell was decent both ways as well.
Last edited by ronoranina; Sep 04, 2010 at 13:46.
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