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Thread: Can We Win w/ D'Antoni

  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Paul you sound like Kiyaman posting this ridiculous, diluted nonsense and I'm very disappointed in you...

    I refuse to argue anymore on this players V the system topic. On THIS issue Kiya and sadly you too cannot see the forest through the trees.
    Ok ronoranina, I think I addressed multiple issues that question Mike D's ability to coach at the "high level" he is labeled as.

    or should I say the 6 million a year he has stolen from us.

    Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, none of these guys would have coached as poorly as Mike D did. Riley got the most out of those 90's Knick teams. Even though Riley had Ewing, every player hustled like it was the last game of their careers, Mike D could never do that.

    You think Riley ever blamed a loss on "energy"??????

    Here is the fact, and learn this quick, if players don't have enough energy to play their hardest while getting paid millions of dollars, then they don't deserve one minute of playing time!

    AND the fact that most of the players were on last year contracts, SHOULD have made the team play harder than ever. Instead Mike D had their "energy" shot mentally by the ridiculous substitutions and benching of players for no reason while playing others who were horrible for long stretches at a time. (Duhon, Jeffries, Gallo's slump, Q Rich,etc) all should have been benched at one point and never were.

    There are so many question marks in my two long posts that you can't even answer.


    I must have listed over ten huge mistakes Mike D made that essentially tanked two years. All of which any Mike D fan cannot back up.

    THE ONLY excuse a Mike D fan has is that the players did not fit his style, yet Mike D's ego made him force the players to learn it even though he knew they were not pure shooters.


    Now he has his players, Mike D should coach the Knicks into the playoffs with a 45 win season.....im still one of the most optimistic Knick fans, even though I think our coach is extremely over rated and doesn't deserve the 6 million he is receiving per year.

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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    First off, Jeffries obviously likes Mike D because ONLY Mike D would play him starter's minutes. No other team would and as I said, Jordan Hill TOOK OVER his spot when both guys got traded to Houston. So when it comes down to it, Mike D's respect for veterans over shadowed the fact that the rookies were clearly better.
    He actually played about the same amount of minutes in Washington so I don't know what you're talking about. Since when was Hill clearly better than Jeffries while they played for us? Jeffries gave us good defense, Hill gave us nothing when he played. Jeffries averaged more minutes per game than Hill in their time in Houston, so once again, I have no idea what you're talking about.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Hill was bad? HE BARELY PLAYED lol ANd how long did it take D'Anotni to stop playing Duhon, who was probably rhe worst PG in the NBA last year hands down? Douglas did not get minutes until after the all star break....a little to late.
    That's why he barely played, because he sucked. Duhon was our only option at PG. Douglas was a rookie, he wasn't ready for a starting role early in the season. You keep blaming D'antoni for things clearly out of his control, it's kinda immature.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Also I have to mention the horrible decision to lie to the fans about Marbury's "clean slate" and never play him resulting in another saga. That might have also been Donnie Walsh's call but Mike D lied, and Marbury did blame Mike D. So Mike D is partial blame for that huge mistake.
    Well I don't know who's to blame for that, but I agree that was very poorly handled.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Yes Mike D'anotni's system killed Chandler and Duhon's shot. Because they were not good shooters and yet Mike's system was to just hustle and chuck up shots. Chandler wound up playing a shooters game when he is obviouslly a slashing/post up SF who should use his strength to get to the hoop.
    D'antoni's system isn't just chucking up shots. You don't understand the system, you have made that very obvious. Chandler kept jacking up shots because he was lazy and had poor shot selection.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Duhon in his first year was good, because he would drive to the hoop, draw multiple fouls every game and hit his free throws. SO when he would drive to the hoop for the pick and roll, teams had no clue what he was doing. BUT last year Duhon never drove to the hoop, never drew fouls, instead he would do a pick and roll or just stop and pop. He became predictable even to me, who is not a pro basketball player. Point guards guarding Duhon last year must have laughed when guarding him: "okay here comes the pick and roll or I'll just wait for him to drive and pass it out to someone at the three point line." Duhon sucks and got worse when he stopped driving to the hoop thanks to Mike D's run and chuck style.
    So, when he does well, it's his own doing. But when he starts sucking it's D'antoni's fault? Great logic. Once again, there is no "run and chuck" system. Our players sucked and had bad shot selection. You overestimate a coach's impact on the game.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Chandler eventually learned to play HIS game and not Mike D's game and at the end of the season before his injury, started to get consistent and shoot at a high percentage. I think Chandler shot 26% from three point land and 47% from inside the three, so why did he constantly shoot three's?!?! The coach is to blame for telling him to stop too late.
    Once again, Chandler shot too many 3's because he had bad shot selection. It's that simple. I'm sure D'antoni told him to decrease his 3 pointers, but it takes a little while to implement that into his game. Why do you blame D'antoni for every single flaw associated with this team?

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Lee was not the only option at Center. Again wether you follow Mike D's assumption that benching Hill every game was more productive than getting killed in the post with Lee and Jeffries, is what I am trying to figure out. Did you honestly agree with his decisions on substitutions and the lineups??? Did you support never playing Darko Millicic, a 7 foot legit center who is now the starting center for the T Wolves????

    Mike D never gave Jordan Hill or Darko Millicic a chance to play center. He gave Jeffries the keys when he never deserved it. I hope you understand this.
    I'll agree that he would foul a lot but he was a good rebounder, strong, and could hit an open shot, had athleticism and we were honestly wasting our 8t overall pick to get Jeffries minutes so we could showcase him for a trade, yes show case. Do you really think any team would take Jeffries if we not getting starter's minutes? NO team would deal with him.
    Jordan Hill sucked. He couldn't guard anyone in the post either. He was a foul machine, and was terrible offensively. Darko? You think Darko would have been our savior? Wow, he's the starting center for the T-Wolves. That's a team we should be all looking up to. You're glamorizing Hill and Milicic so you can have an excuse to blame D'antoni. What makes Hill or Milicic deserve the "keys"?

    I hope you understand that Hill was an inexperienced rookie, who really had no skills as a basketball player besides his athleticism. I also hope you understand that Darko has always been, and always will be a scrub. Jeffries played well for us. Just as well, if not better, than Hill or Darko would have. I don't see why you have such a hatred for Jared Jeffries. "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king." In this scenario, Jeffries is the man with one eye.

    Do you think any team is dumb enough to trade for a player just because we were "showcasing" him? Jeffries has been in the league for awhile, we weren't gonna be tricking any team into trading for him.

    I know it's depressing, but at the time, Jared Jeffries was our best available center.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Now with the argument of the system. I said in my first response that we did not have the shooters that D'Antoni needed and Amare is a better post presence than what Lee was so this year Mike D has all the pieces to be succesfull. He has good shooters in Gallo, Mason, Walker, Azubuike, Douglas, Felton, and even Amare has a nice mid range shot. Amare can draw defenders away from the shooters hopefully turning the low shooting percentages into better shooting percentages.
    Yes, we have a good team this year. For the first time since he arrived, I think we'll see D'antoni's real system.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    And let me mention that Mike D made Chris Duhon and Al Harrington the leaders of the team last season, both wound up being role players, with Duhon not even playing for a month due to his poor play. How can you make Harrington and Duhon the leaders when only Lee was the consistent Knick the past two season? Mike D hurt this team more than you can imagine the past two seasons.
    How did D'antoni make anyone a leader? I believe he made a Duhon the team captain at some point, which makes sense since he was our PG, and the title of team captain doesn't mean that much. D'antoni didn't make anyone leaders, we didn't have any leaders the past couple seasons.

    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Now I have not condemned Mike D this year....yet. I condemn the guy the past two seasons for getting nothing out of our players. His strategies failed and he caused problems inside the club house by benching Larry Hughes who could acutally play defense, by benching Nate who was better than Duhon, by benching Darko who was a legit Center unlike Jeffries and Lee. Would those players have made us a playoff team? No but we would not have been an utter embarissment like we were the past two seasons. Embarissment, remember the many games of wondering what the hell was happening on the side lines and on the court?

    Oh I forgot to mention....he is getting paid 6 million dollars a year.

    Remember that.
    How could he get anything out of our ****ty players? No coach in the league could have done much better than he did with our crappy team. I thought everyone agreed that Larry Hughes sucked ass. His defense was average at best and his offense was terrible. Nate was so streaky, and he needed a wake up call. Darko wouldn't have been any better. What you care that he gets paid 6 million a year? It doesn't count against the cap, and it's Dolan's money.

    Your criticisms of D'antoni are irrational. You couldn't have expected anything more than what we ended up with, when we had such an untalented roster.

  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by JayJ44
    .
    Duhon was our only option at PG. Douglas was a rookie, he wasn't ready for a starting role early in the season. You keep blaming D'antoni for things clearly out of his control, it's kinda immature.

    Well I don't know who's to blame for that, but I agree that was very poorly handled.

    D'antoni's system isn't just chucking up shots. You don't understand the system,

    Once again, Chandler shot too many 3's because he had bad shot selection. It's that simple. I'm sure D'antoni told him to decrease his 3 pointers, but it takes a little while to implement that into his game. Why do you blame D'antoni for every single flaw associated with this team?

    Jordan Hill sucked. He couldn't guard anyone in the post either. He was a foul machine, and was terrible offensively. Darko? You think Darko would have been our savior? Wow, he's the starting center for the T-Wolves. That's a team we should be all looking up to. You're glamorizing Hill and Milicic so you can have an excuse to blame D'antoni. What makes Hill or Milicic deserve the "keys"?

    I hope you understand that Hill was an inexperienced rookie,

    I know it's depressing, but at the time, Jared Jeffries was our best available center.
    Yes, we have a good team this year. For the first time since he arrived, I think we'll see D'antoni's real system.

    How could he get anything out of our ****ty players?

    Your criticisms of D'antoni are irrational. You couldn't have expected anything more than what we ended up with, when we had such an untalented roster.

    JayJ.....the criticism on Dantoni is not irrational, but it damn sure is questionable.
    So many members on KO mention the 2 seasons were throw away seasons,
    but that is hard to consider with a rotation of 7 players out of a roster of
    15 players.

    The reason why u would give Darko & Hill minutes at the center spot is
    b/c David Lee is more of a threat at the PF spot, and Harrington/Chandler are
    lethal at the SF spot.
    For two seasons Lee/Harrington/and Chandler were force to perform all their
    minutes out of their natural positions. Which is tanking for no reason.

    To mention all the Knicks players were ****ty the past 3 seasons is a direct
    finger pointing at management.
    To mention Douglas decent offense & defensive performance wasnt ready to
    be a starter as a rookie, then where does that leave Gallo.
    I may agree 100% Douglas shouldnt have started any games in his rookie
    season when we had a healthy Duhon/Nate/and Hughes to run the point, but
    Dantoni started Douglas in a couple of games, and then DNP Douglas for 16
    games. Where is the logic in this?
    Rookie Douglas was NBA ready for 20 to 24 minutes of playingtime his first 82
    game season. All four guards were supposed to get minutes in every game
    of last season.
    using 3 to 4 of the guards in the rotation would finally let Wilson Chandler
    develope his skills at his natural position SF. Plus adding Darko & Hill in the
    rotation to use their fouls protecting the paint/rebounding/screening would
    help Lee/Harrington be more moble at the foward position.

    This Knick team has been playing Nate Robinson at the 2 spot for four
    straight years. Larry Hughes is a natural defensive SG.
    Lastseason we did not have a SG or Center in our rotation.
    This will be Dantoni's last season as a Knick, it doesnt matter how the
    season turns out.
    What Dantoni system? are u refering to the system he use in the Euro-League, or the system we seen Nash use in Dallas/Phoenix?

  4. #64
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    Default D'amntoni!

    I support everything Paul1355 and Kiyaman have said about D'amntoni. I'm just taking a break bashing Mr. Pringles until the season starts. All that's been said about his assholism has been repeated hundreds of times, from his huge ego, mustache offense to lack of defensive intensity. Props to D'amntoni haters, please get here already October... peace

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    If D'Antoni fails this season, there are no excuses. I will bash him like everybody else.

    But for some reason, I get the feeling that if we have a successful season, the D'Antoni haters will not give him credit. They will always hate him no matter what and won't have the cajones to admit when they're wrong.

    Hopefully they will just go away and never say anything on this site ever again. I would be satifsifed with that. Just like how many of the Mebury lovers are gone.

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    I wonder where people get all these ideas about a ball chucking system and animosity towards the coach. You can't just read a few columnists and base your opinion solely on that. NY journalists are trying to earn a buck and write whichever story can get them the most popularity regardless of fact.

    Without Dantoni, a lot of players wouldn't even consider going to the Knicks. Imagine trying to lure Amare with Herb Williams. My favorite coach is Adelman and I cursed when the Rockets took him. Who else would you want coaching thats available now? Slow down basketball is getting harder and harder with all the rule changes letting guards roam free.

    Dantoni goes for controlled chaos on offense. His objective is to go fast enough to not give the other team a chance to react and get settled in on defense. This gives a lot of nice mismatches and opportunities. The negative is that the players have to give a lot of energy and be in top physical shape to handle the rigor of the fast pace. Lazy players stand out that much more because their lack of energy is brought out for everyone to see. Darko and Curry in particular were lazy tards that wanted a system designed for them to have it easy. Look at how Elton Brand did when the sixers tried to run. You need certain types of players to get the system going.

    You wanna see bad offense, go watch the warriors. Instead of controlled chaos, its just chaos.

    With our horrible lineup these past few years its impossible to judge Dantoni fully. His strength is team play and when you have chemistry destroyers like Harrington and Mcgrady chucking shots it destroys everything. People also forget that the Suns could get stops when they needed with strong defenders like Bell and Marion. I can easily see Randolph becoming a multiple position defender who is able to switch on virtually every pick.

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    I'm not exactly a D'Antoni lover but you have to give the man SOME credit. He was on his way to a pretty decent season with Isiah's squad that only won 23 games the year before so clearly he can coach somewhat.

    And I'm not going to say that he was a perfect coach either. He made questionable substitutions and played too many short rotations and made questionable lineups (I mean, giving Jonathan Bender the time of day rather than Darko? Lee-C Jeffries-PF instead of Darko-C Lee-PF? At least give Darko a CHANCE, he can block some shots at least!).

    But you can't blame him for the failure of some of those blockheads we had. Blaming him for screwing up Chandler's shot? Come on. We all know that Wilson Chandler lacks heart and doesn't want to drive to the basket...how can you blame D'Antoni for that? How can you blame D'Antoni for Nate Robinson's shortcomings as a PG?

    You CAN blame D'Antoni for some things (ie not playing Darko or Jordan Hill, not playing Toney Douglas...) but the poor play of our crap players (most of whom were crap before D'Antoni ever god here) isn't one of them. Harrington chucks shots, that's who he is - blaming it on D'Antoni is MORONIC.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Paul you sound like Kiyaman posting this ridiculous, diluted nonsense and I'm very disappointed in you...

    I refuse to argue anymore on this players V the system topic. On THIS issue Kiya and sadly you too cannot see the forest through the trees.

    u know what it is ridiculous ...... we payed for a "player-coach" that was
    so friendly and understanding with his players in Phoenix, they played above
    their level of performance staying on the same-page with their teammates &
    coach. Plus the Phoenix players would perform while injured for this coach.
    However, this player-coach never made it to New York. The oposite arrived.
    The headcoach that came to New York scared more players away from
    New York in 2 years of service than the clueless Isiah Thomas.
    Having "personal-conflict" with Isiah players and Walsh players was enough
    to turn FA players toward the next NBA team for signing.
    We werent able to sign a confident FA to our MLE for a one year contract in
    2009 offseason. This showed how much the media has lied consistently
    about NBA players wanting to play for coach Dantoni.
    u are right, it is ridiculous!

    Will coach Dantoni pull the same stunt in the 2010-11 season, as he pulled
    the last 2 seasons? is the big question?
    Will Dantoni start Gallo over a better SF-Wilson Chandler in 2010-11 season?
    if yes, how will the new Knick players respond to this action?

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N


    Okay, explain a few things to me since its clear you cant respond to my previous posts in a cogent way:
    Trill..... I am like everyone else on this KO board, to debate (not argue)
    over a topic u go way over board on the subject plus the name-calling
    still show the childish personality within u. I refuse to be around
    friends/family/co-workers that mention bad/negative things about other
    friends/family/co-workers behind their back, and is afraid to mention it "face
    to face" with that person around. This is the internet.

    How would Marbury and N8 coming off the bench be an effective lineup?
    The longest winning streak the Knicks have had in the past 10 years were
    with "shoot-first Marbury & Nate da Great" as starters, 6-games.

    Don't they play similar styles and don't both need to dominate the ball?
    The only thing the two have in common are being combo-guards who luv to
    switch roles on oponents. The similarity of the switch between 76ers
    "Snow & Iverson".

    Do you put any of the blame on Marbury? Are you aware of the fact that he has caused trouble all across the league and is so good that he is now playing in China?
    I spent my childhood in Brooklyn, my babysis is still friends with the Starbury
    family. I liked Marbury as a player but not on my Knick team. I was
    angry about the trade for Marbury b/c I knew KVH was going to be traded
    next. On the business level Marbury did bring back 60% of the season ticket
    holders that quit on Layden. Marbury is more SG than PG, his moves and shot
    selection were the same as Allan Houston.

    How does making it to the playoffs ensure we could have traded 3-4 contracts?
    After a 23 win season we had the Wolves, Grizz, Clippers, and Warriors,
    calling for our two top scoring players Zach & Crawful.
    If we wouldve had a .500 season, the media wouldve put all the Knicks
    whoa's on Isiah Thomas bad coaching of players by refusing to play the
    young players with the veteran players, and giving all his pet players more
    playingtime than they deserve.

    Walsh drafts badly? Hmmm...
    Reggie Miller at I think 11th
    Gallo
    Nabbed Al Harrington with the 25th pick
    Plus don't you cry in almost every thread about Hill another Walsh draft pick?
    Yea he is horrible!
    u are mentioning a GM/turn President with 22 years of experience, within
    those 22 years those are the only names you could come up with out of
    44 draft picks?
    And yes, I did grade Walsh with a B average on the 2009 picks for buying the
    Douglas pick, and picking the best available tough rebounding bigman in the
    draft to add to Dantoni's 6-man rotation of a 32 win season.
    Both draft picks were raw NBA ready players for 18 to 24 mpg last season.
    This season Jordan Hill will accept sitting on the bench most of the season
    getting a few minutes here and there while coach Adelman give the majority
    of bigmen playingtime to Yao/Brad Miller/Scola/and rookie Patterson.
    That's helluva big difference from PF-Lee/SF-Harrington/and SF-Gallo getting
    all the bigmen playingtime minutes.

    P.S. You are still ignoring the fact that we were trading players to clear space and D'ant could have made the playoffs with Zbo/Crawford had we decided to go that route. Not only did we take back inferior talent with expiring contracts but the team chemistry was disrupted with each trade. I know none of that matters since your hatred for D'ant is just the latest in your pessimistic outlook that you yourself admitted started in 1999
    u are ignoring the fact that the only good/decent trades Walsh made was
    the Crawful & Q.Richardson trade. We needed bigmen so Lee/Zach/Chandler
    dont get tired/aghausted in the 4th quarter for a win.
    What u fear to realize is Lee & Zach out-played the majority of bigmen
    tandem oponents in the 23 win 2007-8 season, their biggest downfall
    was having Q.Brick/Crawful/and (26 mpg) Fred Jones throwing up brick shots
    and being the worst SF/SG/PG combination in the league.

    Do u actually think Dantoni wouldve allowed Donnie Walsh to trade Gallo in
    his rookie (back injury) season on the trading deadline?
    so dont think Dantoni did not have a big say so in every one of Walsh trades,
    especially accepting Mobley 2 year contract for failing the physical with a
    career injury. We needed 6.6 Mardy Collins defense and short jumper.
    I dont agree with a short rotation of "role-players" especially when it comes to forcing players to perform out of their positions.
    I too, would not have played defense if I was Lee, and I wouldve jacked up alot of brick shots and stop slashing to the hoop if I was Chandler.

  10. #70
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    Originally Posted by JayJ44
    He actually played about the same amount of minutes in Washington so I don't know what you're talking about. Since when was Hill clearly better than Jeffries while they played for us? Jeffries gave us good defense, Hill gave us nothing when he played. Jeffries averaged more minutes per game than Hill in their time in Houston, so once again, I have no idea what you're talking about.



    That's why he barely played, because he sucked. Duhon was our only option at PG. Douglas was a rookie, he wasn't ready for a starting role early in the season. You keep blaming D'antoni for things clearly out of his control, it's kinda immature.



    Well I don't know who's to blame for that, but I agree that was very poorly handled.



    D'antoni's system isn't just chucking up shots. You don't understand the system, you have made that very obvious. Chandler kept jacking up shots because he was lazy and had poor shot selection.



    So, when he does well, it's his own doing. But when he starts sucking it's D'antoni's fault? Great logic. Once again, there is no "run and chuck" system. Our players sucked and had bad shot selection. You overestimate a coach's impact on the game.



    Once again, Chandler shot too many 3's because he had bad shot selection. It's that simple. I'm sure D'antoni told him to decrease his 3 pointers, but it takes a little while to implement that into his game. Why do you blame D'antoni for every single flaw associated with this team?




    Jordan Hill sucked. He couldn't guard anyone in the post either. He was a foul machine, and was terrible offensively. Darko? You think Darko would have been our savior? Wow, he's the starting center for the T-Wolves. That's a team we should be all looking up to. You're glamorizing Hill and Milicic so you can have an excuse to blame D'antoni. What makes Hill or Milicic deserve the "keys"?

    I hope you understand that Hill was an inexperienced rookie, who really had no skills as a basketball player besides his athleticism.
    I also hope you understand that Darko has always been, and always will be a scrub. Jeffries played well for us. Just as well, if not better, than Hill or Darko would have. I don't see why you have such a hatred for Jared Jeffries. "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king." In this scenario, Jeffries is the man with one eye.

    Do you think any team is dumb enough to trade for a player just because we were "showcasing" him? Jeffries has been in the league for awhile, we weren't gonna be tricking any team into trading for him.

    I know it's depressing, but at the time, Jared Jeffries was our best available center.



    Yes, we have a good team this year. For the first time since he arrived, I think we'll see D'antoni's real system.


    How did D'antoni make anyone a leader? I believe he made a Duhon the team captain at some point, which makes sense since he was our PG, and the title of team captain doesn't mean that much. D'antoni didn't make anyone leaders, we didn't have any leaders the past couple seasons.



    How could he get anything out of our ****ty players? No coach in the league could have done much better than he did with our crappy team. I thought everyone agreed that Larry Hughes sucked ass. His defense was average at best and his offense was terrible. Nate was so streaky, and he needed a wake up call. Darko wouldn't have been any better. What you care that he gets paid 6 million a year? It doesn't count against the cap, and it's Dolan's money.

    Your criticisms of D'antoni are irrational. You couldn't have expected anything more than what we ended up with, when we had such an untalented roster
    .
    In Washington Jeffries was acutally not that bad, in highschool and college, Jeffries was not that bad. As a Knick Jeffries was terrible, drawing fouls from charges does not make you the "best" defender on team. If you can't block shots and you can't provide a presence in the paint, and you can't make easy buckets down low and Jeffries had his sahre every game of missing the easiest shots in the world.... then you should not play center or start at Center unless your offense is very good which is clearly was not. Mehmet Okur is an example of the kind of player I am talking about.

    Douglas sucked? Are you serious? Compared to Duhon, Douglas was Tony Parker. You would have honestly had Duhon playing and starting all of those games and sat Toney Douglas for the 16 games Kiya mentioned? What is the point in that, were is the logic?(Kiya quote) Seriously! It is something that only Mike D could explain. I would shake my head seeing Duhon in the starting lineup, he obviously had extreme favoritism for Duhon and Duhon failed miserably. More than a handful of games were caused because of the excessive minutes of Duhon and Jeffries. They were a waste last season, a waste of minutes, a waste of millions of dollars, and a waste of developing Hill and Douglas sooner.


    What does it take for a player to stop shooting a huge amount of three's? All it takes it some simple coaching, you pull Chandler aside and say "Buddy stop shooting the long bombs and play your game, mid range and close range shots only" THAT IS ALL IT TAKES but for months and months Chandler shot bobms and missed every game, killing offensive runs like it was his job. Duhon lost confidence in his shot. Obviously the mental approach is Duhon's fault since he couldn't get it togehter. But who is to blame for having a system in which players shoot as fast as the can(7 seconds) thus not shooting at a high percentage(evident with our percentage as a team last year)? Mike D! he is the head coach which means if players are not playing the way they do successfully which is a SIMPLE adjustment in offensive approach like driving to the hoop or posting up, then I don't know how you can't blame Mike D for sitting on his rear and waiting months to fix this BIG problem.

    I don't blame Mike D for every single flaw, but the arguments I am making always point to the coach, whether the player has partial blame or not, Mike D could have fixed and it and decided to do it so late that the season was already lost.

    And what is so complex about the "system"?? please tell Mr. Basketball guru lol. The defense plays low pressure to attack the basket on shots, they always gear for fast breaks on misses, WHICH duhon cold never do but somehow Douglas could because of his high speed. last year they usually played a half court offense since Duhon was the slowest PG in the world and never adjusted to a fast break system. The pick and roll was called over 50% of the time, and if that was not called, Duhon would always and I mean ALWAYS drive to the hoop and pass out to a man at the three point line. That man was usually Chandler who would miss constantly. The only consistent player was David Lee who could finish the pick and roll and make the outside jumper, so no matter what Duhon did, Lee cleaned up the mess.
    There is the amazing system in a nut shell. I watched almost every Knick game past two seasons so I have this horribly over rated system down. The only difference this year is Amare, who will provide a post presence which Curry could have been.

    Hill sucked? How could he even have a bad evaluation? Did he play over 30 minutes a game with 5 ppg, 4 rb, and 1 assist(Jeffries numbers)...do you understand how bad that is for a starting center getting big minutes????!!!??? Horrible! I am glamorizing Hill and Millicic because we got absolutely murdered in the paint last season. And Hill/Darko NEVER PLAYED and when they got minutes which Houston gave to Hill and Minny gave to Darko, they shined! Plain and simple, they did good when they were traded and got minutes. And Mike D is to blame for playing David Lee and Jeffries at Center which they are not. Jeffries is a 3 or a 4 who can use his long size to over match players smaller than him at 3 and 4, Lee is a straight up 4...never should he play center again. Hill and Darko are strong players who could rebound decently, score in the paint,a nd provide some presence in the paint to HELP Lee. Lee had no help because Jeffries could not provide the help! Jeffries is to blame and Mike D is the root of the problem because he made the call! OKAY


    Let's compare some stats......Jeffries on the Knicks VS Hill on the rockets
    Jeffries=28 min per game,5.5 ppg, 4.3 rbpg, 1.6 assists pg, 1.1 bpg, 44%fg
    Hill=16.2 min per game, 6.4 ppg,5 rbpg, 0.6 assists, 0.5 bpg, 53%fg

    Conclusion: If Hill got Jeffries minutes(close to double) he would have averaged 12-13 ppg, 10 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 block, shooting probably 50%...tell me who should have gotten more minutes on the past Knicks team now?

    Darko is now starting on an NBA team! and D'Anotni benched him almost the entire time he was here, How do you miss a starting center?!?! Who cares if it is the T Wolves, they weren't as bad as the Nets so they are a team in the NBA and Darko started while we got killed in the post.
    Let's now see Darko's numbers on the T Wolves:
    25.6 mpg, 8.3 ppg, 5.5 rbpg, 1.8 apg, 1.4 bpg,49%fg

    One more conclusion to Jeffries vs Hill/Darko: Hill and Darko had better numbers in almost every category with less minutes per game. Jeffries is a fail...the numbers don't lie my friend.

    Is Jeffries starting on the Rockets? NO. Without Yao Ming he still did not start one game out of the 18 he played.


    Jeffries HAD to be showcased. His numbers were horrible for a starting center and he got those minutes consistently. The idea was to trade Jeffries from the very beginning to get rid of that horrible contract to get Lebron James this summer. We did not get James but thank the good Lord in Heaven we got rid of Jared Jeffries, one of the many cancers Isiah brought to this team.

    If you ever saw an interview last season, Al Harrington and Chris Duhon admitted to being the team captains numerous times. They usualyl said it because they felt that they were not performing to the task at hand and not elading by example.
    When Q Rich was on the team, he was the leader because you can see he was the only one talking to players and barking orders, Q Rich barked orders and then missed multiple shots....when you can't lead by example you lose and everyone falls around you.

    I'm not sure if Mike D crowned Q Rich the leader when he was here, but I know 100% that he made Duhon and Harrington the leaders of the team alst season, the players admitted it and even Tina Cervasio would comment about it when asking them questions. It is true, sadly. And that blame goes directly towards teh coach for making them captains. Maybe Duhon never got his shot back due to the pressure of being the leader? It does put a load on a player when his team is losing and the blame is straight at him, while the media would cover Mike D unless it was Al Trautwig who blasted Mike D many times.

    Jay, any coach could have done better with our team last year. We were an utter embarrassment because of our lack of energy and will to play for Mike D. That is the truth, the players did not care, even though they were playing for contracts. That is BAD. When a player does not give a damn about his numbers while in his last year, that tells you he can't wait to leave and start fresh to impress some other team. Hughes got his minutes in Charlotte and he was one of our best perimeter defenders since only Douglas and Chandler could be called decent ones. Everyone else sucked on defense on the perimeter.
    Hughes complained about suddenly playing and then getting DNP. Nate the same, it made no sense to handle it the way Mike D did. He was harsh on the young players and too laid back with the veterans except Hughes.

    Playing Darko, Hill, Hughes, Nate, Douglas, would not have made us a playoff team and there are no saviors. I said that before which you missed. They would have made us more competitive and harder to beat, especially in the post where centers had a field day.
    Mike D went for all offense starting Lee at Center, ignoring defense by never playing Hill, Douglas, Hughes or Darko. This are facts. And these facts are why all the criticism about him not coaching defense or caring about it come into full view.

    He can win with this team now because they are very athletic, fast, can block shots, and are good shooters.

  11. #71
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JayJ44
    He actually played about the same amount of minutes in Washington so I don't know what you're talking about. Since when was Hill clearly better than Jeffries while they played for us? Jeffries gave us good defense, Hill gave us nothing when he played. Jeffries averaged more minutes per game than Hill in their time in Houston, so once again, I have no idea what you're talking about.



    That's why he barely played, because he sucked. Duhon was our only option at PG. Douglas was a rookie, he wasn't ready for a starting role early in the season. You keep blaming D'antoni for things clearly out of his control, it's kinda immature.



    Well I don't know who's to blame for that, but I agree that was very poorly handled.



    D'antoni's system isn't just chucking up shots. You don't understand the system, you have made that very obvious. Chandler kept jacking up shots because he was lazy and had poor shot selection.



    So, when he does well, it's his own doing. But when he starts sucking it's D'antoni's fault? Great logic. Once again, there is no "run and chuck" system. Our players sucked and had bad shot selection. You overestimate a coach's impact on the game.



    Once again, Chandler shot too many 3's because he had bad shot selection. It's that simple. I'm sure D'antoni told him to decrease his 3 pointers, but it takes a little while to implement that into his game. Why do you blame D'antoni for every single flaw associated with this team?



    Jordan Hill sucked. He couldn't guard anyone in the post either. He was a foul machine, and was terrible offensively. Darko? You think Darko would have been our savior? Wow, he's the starting center for the T-Wolves. That's a team we should be all looking up to. You're glamorizing Hill and Milicic so you can have an excuse to blame D'antoni. What makes Hill or Milicic deserve the "keys"?

    I hope you understand that Hill was an inexperienced rookie, who really had no skills as a basketball player besides his athleticism. I also hope you understand that Darko has always been, and always will be a scrub. Jeffries played well for us. Just as well, if not better, than Hill or Darko would have. I don't see why you have such a hatred for Jared Jeffries. "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king." In this scenario, Jeffries is the man with one eye.

    Do you think any team is dumb enough to trade for a player just because we were "showcasing" him? Jeffries has been in the league for awhile, we weren't gonna be tricking any team into trading for him.

    I know it's depressing, but at the time, Jared Jeffries was our best available center.



    Yes, we have a good team this year. For the first time since he arrived, I think we'll see D'antoni's real system.



    How did D'antoni make anyone a leader? I believe he made a Duhon the team captain at some point, which makes sense since he was our PG, and the title of team captain doesn't mean that much. D'antoni didn't make anyone leaders, we didn't have any leaders the past couple seasons.



    How could he get anything out of our ****ty players? No coach in the league could have done much better than he did with our crappy team. I thought everyone agreed that Larry Hughes sucked ass. His defense was average at best and his offense was terrible. Nate was so streaky, and he needed a wake up call. Darko wouldn't have been any better. What you care that he gets paid 6 million a year? It doesn't count against the cap, and it's Dolan's money.

    Your criticisms of D'antoni are irrational. You couldn't have expected anything more than what we ended up with, when we had such an untalented roster.
    Thank you J44 for making these points as I do not have the energy lol to state the obvious to a couple of ignorant Knick fans who simply hate on Mike D'antoni.

    I have made my stance clear and succinct in previous posts in this thread. To me this issue is SO obvious. If your perception is one of it's D'ant's fault then I just don't know what to tell you other than your entitled to your opinion and I'll respect it while believing wholeheartedly that you are ignorant and lack any modicum of ability to see what is real.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Sep 05, 2010 at 17:25.

  12. #72
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Thank you J44 for making these points as I do not have the energy lol to state the obvious to a couple of ignorant Knick fans who simply hate on Mike D'antoni.

    I have made my stance clear and succinct in previous posts in this thread. To me this issue is SO obvious. If your perception is one of it's D'ant's fault then I just don't know what to tell you other than your entitled to your opinion and I'll respect it while believing wholeheartedly that you are ignorant and lack any modicum of ability to see what is real.
    There are too many question marks in Mike D's coaching the past two years. Eventually anyone backing up D'Antoni will see that he did make many mistakes and he was the root of many problems since the coach makes the choices.

    Saying that we don't know what's real because we have seen two horrible seasons and somehow it is not the coaches fault, is more of a delusion than anything. Too many question marks that you can't answer. The stats I showed to Jay J prove even more that D'Antoni failed. Embarissing how Jeffries had worse numbers in almost every category while averaging almost double the minutes than Hill. And Darko averaged better numbers in a few less min per game as well. Can't you see this?!?!

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    Breaking News

    Sighs.

    A perfect coach coaches offense AND defense with equal excellence. Mike D'Ant is not that coach.

    No one else is either. His expertise is offense
    . It (would be) foolish for him to sacrifice the area he can make the.biggest impact as one man to satisfy some absurd, retro notion of not brig "too" offensive. The fact that everyone talks about it so much, especially the haters, is a testament to his ability, as a coach, to profoundly be able to impact the game. That is rare.

    He obviously coaches defense. Tape, stats, and logic support this. The entire Knicks staff obviously does. And its obvious that d is fundamentally contingent upon personal effort and will in tandem with raw "skills"that can be coached.

    Also his 3pt lust is amazing for us and our future.

    It is the 2nd most productive shot in the game, and the ability to hit and defend the sideline 3 is a mark of what defines excellence in the present, and certainly the future.

    I don't profess to know D'ant nor any coach with total information and veracity (tho I am friendly with arguably the most dominant NBA handicapper and better in the country, and.even he admits to the difficulty.in gauging a coach's true worth to some allknowing degree).

    But hey, let's fire that Italian honky.

    so many.of you are fooled by.randomness. D'ant could easily.be Phil Jackson.

  14. #74
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    u know what it is ridiculous ...... we payed for a "player-coach" that was
    so friendly and understanding with his players in Phoenix, they played above
    their level of performance staying on the same-page with their teammates &
    coach. Plus the Phoenix players would perform while injured for this coach.
    However, this player-coach never made it to New York. The oposite arrived.

    The headcoach that came to New York scared more players away from
    New York in 2 years of service than the clueless Isiah Thomas.
    Having "personal-conflict" with Isiah players and Walsh players was enough
    to turn FA players toward the next NBA team for signing.
    We werent able to sign a confident FA to our MLE for a one year contract in
    2009 offseason. This showed how much the media has lied consistently
    about NBA players wanting to play for coach Dantoni.
    u are right, it is ridiculous!

    Will coach Dantoni pull the same stunt in the 2010-11 season, as he pulled
    the last 2 seasons? is the big question?
    Will Dantoni start Gallo over a better SF-Wilson Chandler in 2010-11 season?
    if yes, how will the new Knick players respond to this action?
    Dude Coach is still that same guy. He's just had to suffer through two awful rebuilding years, and terrible players used to get us rebuilt.

    Why can't you see that?

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    Angry

    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Dude Coach is still that same guy. He's just had to suffer through two awful rebuilding years, and terrible players used to get us rebuilt.
    Why can't you see that?
    It seems like u still dont get it.
    In 2001 to 2003 the Phoenix Suns had a big lockerroom feud between 3
    players "Hardaway/Marbury/Marion" over which one deserve to be the
    leadership captain of the team. Resigning Marion to $15M and Marbury
    to $20M only added more fuel to the fire on the team.

    If the Knicks wouldve never made the trade with Phoenix in 2003-4 for Marbury/Hardaway,
    Dantoni's NBA coaching career wouldve been over.
    Dantoni failure to communicate with the players on the Denver Nuggets
    got him fired, and Marbury/Hardaway long expensive contract on Phoenix
    had interim Dantoni fired after the 2003-4 season.

    The two top underratted players in the NBA during the 2002 to 2004
    seasons were on the Dallas Mavs in Finley/Nash backcourt.
    These two players revive the Dallas Mavs team, they were the leaders
    in the lockerroom and on the court, they won on their offense and loss on
    their poor bigman defense. Damn! dont that sound like the Dantoni Suns?
    Last edited by Kiyaman; Sep 07, 2010 at 05:17.

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