Can We Win w/ D'Antoni

BleedOrange&Blue

Benchwarmer
Like many Knicks Fans I am happy that we can now look back at the Isaiah Era as we move forward and try to restore the prominence of what was once a proud and respected franchise. I think Donnie Walsh has been decent as a GM as he was able to clean house and give the Knicks young talent and some flexibility to work with in the future. Up until this point however, the Knicks have not show any real improvement. This of course is part of the rebuilding process and considering how there was no real continuity and players were all looking out for themselves with contracts expiring, to fault D'Antoni at this point would be premature.

Up until this point, I have ignored most of the criticism of our coach as he has never really had much of a chance to put his system into place. I think the most legitimate point that has been made is his lack of emphasis on defense and rebounding. Even as a D'Antoni supporter I am truly concerned by his disregard for the two most critical components of championship winning basketball. I have no doubt that the Knicks will be entertaining but quite frankly I got plenty of that reading the newspapers when Isaiah was running things. I don't care about just "making the playoffs" I want to dominate.

Looking back on the history of the NBA, I cannot recall a team outside of perhaps the Showtime Lakers that could get away with average defense and go deep into the playoffs. As potent as the D'Antoni Offense can be I honestly feel that this Knicks team regardless of personal will not win the Eastern Conference Finals unless D'Antoni accommodates more effective defensive players at the expense of his personal taste. So when Donnie is looking to trade Wilson for Rudy most people scratch their head, but in D'Antoni's "system" which overvalues offensive prowess and undervalues defense this is a slam dunk.

Considering where we stand now do you feel D'Antoni will be able to coach a contender?
 

Blumatic

Rotation player
Like many Knicks Fans I am happy that we can now look back at the Isaiah Era as we move forward and try to restore the prominence of what was once a proud and respected franchise. I think Donnie Walsh has been decent as a GM as he was able to clean house and give the Knicks young talent and some flexibility to work with in the future. Up until this point however, the Knicks have not show any real improvement. This of course is part of the rebuilding process and considering how there was no real continuity and players were all looking out for themselves with contracts expiring, to fault D'Antoni at this point would be premature.

Up until this point, I have ignored most of the criticism of our coach as he has never really had much of a chance to put his system into place. I think the most legitimate point that has been made is his lack of emphasis on defense and rebounding. Even as a D'Antoni supporter I am truly concerned by his disregard for the two most critical components of championship winning basketball. I have no doubt that the Knicks will be entertaining but quite frankly I got plenty of that reading the newspapers when Isaiah was running things. I don't care about just "making the playoffs" I want to dominate.

Looking back on the history of the NBA, I cannot recall a team outside of perhaps the Showtime Lakers that could get away with average defense and go deep into the playoffs. As potent as the D'Antoni Offense can be I honestly feel that this Knicks team regardless of personal will not win the Eastern Conference Finals unless D'Antoni accommodates more effective defensive players at the expense of his personal taste. So when Donnie is looking to trade Wilson for Rudy most people scratch their head, but in D'Antoni's "system" which overvalues offensive prowess and undervalues defense this is a slam dunk.

Considering where we stand now do you feel D'Antoni will be able to coach a contender?

Those Laker team played D. Not Bad Boys D but it was good.


D'Antoni will win alot of games but the playoffs is a different beast. I will give him this year alone to prove himself. I expect to beat teams like the Bucks, Pacers, etc. We should compete with the Bulls and go hard and Miami (though they may blow us out). Not too many great coaches out there. As much as I hate him I wish Pat Riley was still here. That kind of an in a basketball organization means so much.

But this is it for Mike, there must be a significant improvement. Playoffs or bust. Must win 42 games or more.
 
Those Laker team played D. Not Bad Boys D but it was good.


D'Antoni will win alot of games but the playoffs is a different beast. I will give him this year alone to prove himself. I expect to beat teams like the Bucks, Pacers, etc. We should compete with the Bulls and go hard and Miami (though they may blow us out). Not too many great coaches out there. As much as I hate him I wish Pat Riley was still here. That kind of an in a basketball organization means so much.

But this is it for Mike, there must be a significant improvement. Playoffs or bust. Must win 42 games or more.

We need to get rid of him immediately I rather mike Woodson and his iso-offense
 

Kiyaman

Legend
NO!
Your thread is a replica of January 2004, when Isiah replace the terror of Layden, and HOF coach Lenny Wilkins replace Chaney.

Layden change 85% of the roster in two seasons
Isiah changed 96% of the roster in two seasons.
Walsh changed 92% of the roster in two seasons.

All these two year changes by different GM's has taken away my optimism in this Knick organization as a team. Why? each GM average a 30 win season.
Nothing changed in our record.

The Knicks last 5 seasons of 30 win records belong to the Headcoaches poor developement of the players.
 

Paul1355

All Star
Like many Knicks Fans I am happy that we can now look back at the Isaiah Era as we move forward and try to restore the prominence of what was once a proud and respected franchise. I think Donnie Walsh has been decent as a GM as he was able to clean house and give the Knicks young talent and some flexibility to work with in the future. Up until this point however, the Knicks have not show any real improvement. This of course is part of the rebuilding process and considering how there was no real continuity and players were all looking out for themselves with contracts expiring, to fault D'Antoni at this point would be premature.

Up until this point, I have ignored most of the criticism of our coach as he has never really had much of a chance to put his system into place. I think the most legitimate point that has been made is his lack of emphasis on defense and rebounding. Even as a D'Antoni supporter I am truly concerned by his disregard for the two most critical components of championship winning basketball. I have no doubt that the Knicks will be entertaining but quite frankly I got plenty of that reading the newspapers when Isaiah was running things. I don't care about just "making the playoffs" I want to dominate.

Looking back on the history of the NBA, I cannot recall a team outside of perhaps the Showtime Lakers that could get away with average defense and go deep into the playoffs. As potent as the D'Antoni Offense can be I honestly feel that this Knicks team regardless of personal will not win the Eastern Conference Finals unless D'Antoni accommodates more effective defensive players at the expense of his personal taste. So when Donnie is looking to trade Wilson for Rudy most people scratch their head, but in D'Antoni's "system" which overvalues offensive prowess and undervalues defense this is a slam dunk.

Considering where we stand now do you feel D'Antoni will be able to coach a contender?
We can win enough to make it deep in the playoffs but to win a ring, is yet to be seen with Mike D.

He does not stress defense which is obvious if you watch his teams.

He could not win a championship with Steve Nash in his prime winning two mvp awards sided with a young Amare, Boris Diaw, Leandro Barbosa...all very good players around two all stars at the time. The Suns should have won at least one ring.

What Mike D could not do was have his high powered offense beat the Spurs' high powered defense. Defense wins and Alvin Gentry's Suns beat teh Spurs in a sweep because he focused on both ends of the floor.

SO...I think we can win alot of games this year, but to go all the way with Mike D is yet to be seen. And if he does not get us in the playoffs this year, then he is gone and he knows it.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
Like many Knicks Fans I am happy that we can now look back at the Isaiah Era as we move forward and try to restore the prominence of what was once a proud and respected franchise. I think Donnie Walsh has been decent as a GM as he was able to clean house and give the Knicks young talent and some flexibility to work with in the future. Up until this point however, the Knicks have not show any real improvement. This of course is part of the rebuilding process and considering how there was no real continuity and players were all looking out for themselves with contracts expiring, to fault D'Antoni at this point would be premature.

Up until this point, I have ignored most of the criticism of our coach as he has never really had much of a chance to put his system into place. I think the most legitimate point that has been made is his lack of emphasis on defense and rebounding. Even as a D'Antoni supporter I am truly concerned by his disregard for the two most critical components of championship winning basketball. I have no doubt that the Knicks will be entertaining but quite frankly I got plenty of that reading the newspapers when Isaiah was running things. I don't care about just "making the playoffs" I want to dominate.

Looking back on the history of the NBA, I cannot recall a team outside of perhaps the Showtime Lakers that could get away with average defense and go deep into the playoffs. As potent as the D'Antoni Offense can be I honestly feel that this Knicks team regardless of personal will not win the Eastern Conference Finals unless D'Antoni accommodates more effective defensive players at the expense of his personal taste. So when Donnie is looking to trade Wilson for Rudy most people scratch their head, but in D'Antoni's "system" which overvalues offensive prowess and undervalues defense this is a slam dunk.

Considering where we stand now do you feel D'Antoni will be able to coach a contender?

u did all that writing about a GM & headcoach that hasnt been on the
same-page since both arrived in New York.
This thread is about a headcoach that dont remind his players they have a
foul to give in crunch time, or remind his players to call a time out, or have a
defensive plan in the last quarter, or have a design play after a time out, or
have any knowledge on developing college talent into NBA talent.
The list could go on and on, especially using a small rotation of 7 players on a
15 man role-player team.

I'm curious to know if u ever seen Dantoni coach the Denver Nuggets?
or when Dantoni coach the 29 win Phoenix Suns? did Dantoni have this
so-call system u mentioning back then?

I'm asking this question b/c u and a hundred other Knick-fans keep getting
"Steve Nash style of performance" mixed up with this so-call theory of
a Dantoni-system.
I wonder what system Jason Kidd and Matrix Marion were using as Phoenix Suns?
:gony:
 

petescud

Starter
Not only can we not win with our coach, we need new owners badly...Till then we will win nothing. Sad a great org like the Knicks has been cursed by shitty owners lately
 

Kiyaman

Legend
After Dantoni got swept (5 games) in the first round in Phoenix with
Shaq/Amare/Hill/Diaw/Nash, the writing was on the wall.
Those 5 players together are a 7 game series.

The only way Dantoni couldve impressed me after that first
round embarrassement in Phoenix, was for him to improve and mesh
our veteran players Marbury/Crawful/Q.Rich/Jeff/Zach/Curry/and Jerome
James into having a .500 season.

The credit of our 32 & 29 win season belongs to headcoach Dantoni as well
as the players. There was nothing impressive about the coaching of those
2 seasons to expect better coaching in the upcoming season.
 

portega1968

El Cacique
I'm probably stating the obvious here, but Dantoni's insistence on winning without worrying about defense is like using a drag racer without brakes on a NASCAR track.

His focus on scoring more than the opponent is only half right; he must realize that it is easier to score more than the opponent if you focus on stopping them from getting points.

He is so friking stubborn on this subject and it doesnt help the development of our young guys. He should back down and accept a defensive assistant coach; if he would match his awesome offensive mind with a solid defensive policy, then he will win championships. Until then, we will win many games, but not a championship.

Nonetheless, can't wait to see the offensive firepower of our revamped team next season, and the guys we brought in do have defensive abilities (Randolph, Mason, Turiaf, Felton), so I think the layoffs are a strong possibility.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
I'm probably stating the obvious here, but Dantoni's insistence on winning without worrying about defense is like using a drag racer without brakes on a NASCAR track.

His focus on scoring more than the opponent is only half right; he must realize that it is easier to score more than the opponent if you focus on stopping them from getting points.

He is so friking stubborn on this subject and it doesnt help the development of our young guys. He should back down and accept a defensive assistant coach; if he would match his awesome offensive mind with a solid defensive policy, then he will win championships. Until then, we will win many games, but not a championship.

Nonetheless, can't wait to see the offensive firepower of our revamped team next season, and the guys we brought in do have defensive abilities (Randolph, Mason, Turiaf, Felton), so I think the layoffs are a strong possibility.


How can you claim that D'ant does not worry about defense? I have posted several videos, quotes and articles where D'ant is clearly coaching defense at a high level. His rosters have always been filled with lackluster defensive players so he did his best with what he had. That said, I have never heard of a credible argument that asserts SSOL is not able to incorporate good defense.

The guy one multiple titles in Europe and several coach of the year awards here and in Europe so please don't tell me the guy can't coach defense. It's a shallow talking point by the same media who hates the Knicks and jumps from one story emanating from a blogger to the next. If you cared to to look past this inaccurate talking points you would see that D'ant is an offensive specialist who can alos coach D quite well.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
How can you claim that D'ant does not worry about defense? I have posted several videos, quotes and articles where D'ant is clearly coaching defense at a high level. His rosters have always been filled with lackluster defensive players so he did his best with what he had. That said, I have never heard of a credible argument that asserts SSOL is not able to incorporate good defense.

The guy one multiple titles in Europe and several coach of the year awards here and in Europe so please don't tell me the guy can't coach defense. It's a shallow talking point by the same media who hates the Knicks and jumps from one story emanating from a blogger to the next. If you cared to to look past this inaccurate talking points you would see that D'ant is an offensive specialist who can alos coach D quite well.

I don't see how various posters, commentators, basketball analysts and sports writers can all be wrong. EVERYONE knows Dantoni's system is HIGHLY focused on blowing up the scoreboard.

Its the same way how EVERYONE knew former coach Mike Fratello's system was highly focused on slowing the game down and playing tough defense. All you have to do is watch the games to know these things. There's a consistency with each coach.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
I don't see how various posters, commentators, basketball analysts and sports writers can all be wrong. EVERYONE knows Dantoni's system is HIGHLY focused on blowing up the scoreboard.

Its the same way how EVERYONE knew former coach Mike Fratello's system was highly focused on slowing the game down and playing tough defense. All you have to do is watch the games to know these things. There's a consistency with each coach.

1. Dan't never had defensive players.
2. SSOL is an offensive scheme and should have no bearing on the defense they play. (maybe some transition points but thats it)
3. The national media gets it wrong all the time so what are you talking about?
 

serendipity10

Benchwarmer
A coach is as good as his team. As long as there great team chemistry on defense and offense D'antoni is doing his job. The Knicks look more like a team than its been in a while, each player can back up the other player. The help defense will be better and player will have open shots. I believe D'antoni can make this team as good as it should be, as long as there are no injuries the Knicks will make a statement and be contenders.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
I don't see how various posters, commentators, basketball analysts and sports writers can all be wrong. EVERYONE knows Dantoni's system is HIGHLY focused on blowing up the scoreboard.

Its the same way how EVERYONE knew former coach Mike Fratello's system was highly focused on slowing the game down and playing tough defense. All you have to do is watch the games to know these things. There's a consistency with each coach.


:agreed:
For the sake of Basketball, why did u respond back to a poster that is
clueless of why Dantoni is not still coaching in Phoenix.

We traded a defensive Kurt Thomas to Phoenix and Dantoni DNP Kurt
Thomas off n on throughout those two seasons.
The Knicks had some decent defensive players in
Collins/Balkman/Hughes/Jefferies/and rookie Jordan Hill.

If u notice any of the USA Olympic games/practice the announcers speak
frequently of coach Dantoni being the offensive coach "only".
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
:agreed:
For the sake of Basketball, why did u respond back to a poster that is
clueless of why Dantoni is not still coaching in Phoenix.

We traded a defensive Kurt Thomas to Phoenix and Dantoni DNP Kurt
Thomas off n on throughout those two seasons.
The Knicks had some decent defensive players in
Collins/Balkman/Hughes/Jefferies/and rookie Jordan Hill.

If u notice any of the USA Olympic games/practice the announcers speak
frequently of coach Dantoni being the offensive coach "only".

It's funny that you call me clueless when all you do is make posts about non-reality...shit you totally made up in your head like a schoolgirl passing a rumor around about the cheerleader you are jealous about...

First it was your made up conspiracy theories about our front office, then it was Dr. Kiya the patella injury expert who knows that Azu is going to miss the whole season without a shred of proof.

D'ant is indeed an offensive specialist but he does coach defense quite well. Again, until you or anyone can explain why SSOL means weak defense all your talking points are as hollow as the national media's hate for the Knicks.

Watch and learn guys:




Lets see what our best defender over the last few years said about D'ant and defense:

"I think that Mike’s a realist,’’ Jeffries said. "Defending, like anything else in the NBA, is a talent level. And you can’t have people that are not great defenders and expect them to be great defenders. Just like you can’t have people that aren’t great scorers and expect them to be great scorers. He put me out there to be a defender and he puts guys out there to be scorers. He does focus on defense, but if you don’t have defensive players, then you’re not going to be a great defensive team.’’
He added, "It’s not like he tells the guys, ‘Don’t go out there and guard anybody, just try to score.’ That’s not the case at all.’’
D'ant was such a horrible coach that he won 2 coach of the year awards and Amare ran to play under him once again giving D'ant the chance to coach him through his prime.

The fact is the Suns could have won a title had a few things gone there way or had that not run into a Spurs dynasty. Riley is a hall of fame coach yet could not get the Knicks past MJ and the Bulls. It's clear your hate clouds your judgment and you are not looking at his tenure in Phoenix objectively.

P.S.This dude is still talking about Balkman a complete scrub! GTFOH!

P.P.S. Dan't was indeed brought in to coach offense with Team USA because they needed an offensive specialist to manage all that firepower. They had other coaches serving other roles and that in no way proves that D'ant can't or doesn't coach defense. In fact my video proves the exact opposite!
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
BTW, as another poster aptly pointed out in another thread...they said the same thing about the Rams style of play in football until they dominated and won a Superbowl.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
BTW, as another poster aptly pointed out in another thread...they said the same thing about the Rams style of play in football until they dominated and won a Superbowl.

That's a very bad comparison. In football, there is a squad sent out on the field for the sole purpose of playing defense. They even have their own coach/coordinator.

There's way more moving parts in football.

Dantoni would benefit greatly from having a defensive coach on his team. His ego probably wouldn't allow it, but he could use someone to help set up defensive schemes late in the 4th quarter. Based on what i've seen so far, he isn't great a drawing up plays out of a timeout in a half court set.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
That's a very bad comparison. In football, there is a squad sent out on the field for the sole purpose of playing defense. They even have their own coach/coordinator.

There's way more moving parts in football.

Dantoni would benefit greatly from having a defensive coach on his team. His ego probably wouldn't allow it, but he could use someone to help set up defensive schemes late in the 4th quarter. Based on what i've seen so far, he isn't great a drawing up plays out of a timeout in a half court set.

Of course the comparison is not 100% but the point about the "experts" saying one system can never win was my only point. They were wrong and anyone who thinks D'ants system is not capable of a title is as well. Time will ultimately tell but to suggest D'ant does not coach defense is to ignore reality.

P.S. The Rams still relied on outscoring their opponent versus holding them to low scores with the defense. While it's the same 5 people at any given time on both sides of the court there is no reason that an offensive system or style of play should dictate how hard they play on the defensive end in the NBA.
 

iJoe

Rotation player
It's funny that you call me clueless when all you do is make posts about non-reality...shit you totally made up in your head like a schoolgirl passing a rumor around about the cheerleader you are jealous about...

First it was your made up conspiracy theories about our front office, then it was Dr. Kiya the patella injury expert who knows that Azu is going to miss the whole season without a shred of proof.

D'ant is indeed an offensive specialist but he does coach defense quite well. Again, until you or anyone can explain why SSOL means weak defense all your talking points are as hollow as the national media's hate for the Knicks.

Watch and learn guys:


Lets see what our best defender over the last few years said about D'ant and defense:


D'ant was such a horrible coach that he won 2 coach of the year awards and Amare ran to play under him once again giving D'ant the chance to coach him through his prime.

The fact is the Suns could have won a title had a few things gone there way or had that not run into a Spurs dynasty. Riley is a hall of fame coach yet could not get the Knicks past MJ and the Bulls. It's clear your hate clouds your judgment and you are not looking at his tenure in Phoenix objectively.

P.S.This dude is still talking about Balkman a complete scrub! GTFOH!

P.P.S. Dan't was indeed brought in to coach offense with Team USA because they needed an offensive specialist to manage all that firepower. They had other coaches serving other roles and that in no way proves that D'ant can't or doesn't coach defense. In fact my video proves the exact opposite!


Great post! Really nice vids as well.

Dantoni is on Team USA mainly because hes the most familiar with the Euro style of play.

While I would LOVE to have a defensive specialist on the knicks, the Suns squads in the past where definitely underrated defensively. The key is to get the stops when they really matter. Using all your energy on defense all the time can backfire on you as well. Its all a matter of having the right players for your system and this year looks a LOT more promising.

You would think that with all the talk of the knicks being completely focused on fast tempo and absolutely no defense should make the knicks at least top 3 in terms of pace. They weren't even top 5. I believe it was 9th in the NBA last season. While thats not slow, it certainly doesn't add up to all the press the Knicks get about inflated stats and the like. Especially that tired talk of David Lee having great stats just because of the system. The man just hustles and has a knack for being in the right place. No one talks about Indiana who ranks number 2 for having no defense and inflated stats.

This is a case of a well known coach in the Mecca of basketball. When he loses, he'll be analyzed and criticized by all. If he starts winning, everyone who was whining about him will suddenly write about how underrated his defense and coaching is.
 
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