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Thread: Can We Win w/ D'Antoni

  1. #46
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Thought u had me on ignore Jimqueef....my skeet put that on Chief.

    Now if you want to have a debate how about you respond to my numerous points instead of making some juvenile attempt at an argument by distorting one small slice of my overall argument.
    Because your numerous points are garbage and you don't know HOW to debate.... you just make up stupid little names and rely on your sig for props.... big deal....

  2. #47
    Veteran jpz17's Avatar
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    I figured out who D looks like....





    tooo........






    Cliff Clavin from Cheers

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Because your numerous points are garbage and you don't know HOW to debate.... you just make up stupid little names and rely on your sig for props.... big deal....

    That's funny coming from you, it truly is. If my points were such garbage surely you could respond, but you didn't. It's clear I laid out several points and backed up my assertions with videos and quotes. You came into the thread and contributed absolutely nothing and everyone can see that. My names are a carry over from the other thread where you started talking **** and thinking just because you are an old man that you know more. I responded with a thorough logical beating of all your points and you ran away claiming to put me on ignore. SO now this is twice where you fail at being able to actually debate me...

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    At the end of the day it comes down to winning. Short rotation, offensive-minded, whatever whatever...at the end of the day if we were 50-32 nobody would be saying peep. But we weren't. At the end of the day, it all comes down to wins, all D'Antoni's flaws (and flaws any coach has) are magnified with losses and minimized with wins, so at the end of the day it all the criticism boils down to one sentence, "He didn't win games"

    Nobody has answered how on earth you can blame a guy for not winning games while coaching a team that was trying to audition players for trade bait rather than trying to win.

    Also, I agree with Trill in the sense that, if his points are such utter garbage then they would be easily debunk-able. So far, no one has really tried to do that.

  5. #50
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    Default wowza

    i have to chime in here, as I have NOT been a fan of 'Antoni these past couple years, and I've normally supported Kiya's and Trillion's POV's; they put so much time and heart into their postings, alas, it becomes a waste of energy when they go at each other, but each has valid points.

    I think we can win with this coach, and with this team. The squad has upgraded defensively AND talent-wise, we're much bigger with a lot more depth. How can anyone predict what's going to happen based on the depleted Knick teams these past 2 years? Before Donnie traded Zbo and Crawful, Ant-man had the team playing well at start of season. Sacrifices had to be made to get Knicks in position for this year's offseason, and we HAVE improved, tremendously, NO DOUBT. Just the fact that Duhound is gone, replaced by a solid starting PG should bring at least another dozen wins. Antoni's winning teams have always been predicated on a smart starting PG, and Feltip fills that need. Knicks now have one of the best power forwards in the league (STAT), one of the best shooting forward's in the league (an improved and healthy Gallipini) a couple of centers, and a slew of decent new and old players, most of whom play defense (Turiaf, Randolph, Weedson, Zazubookie), the basics are back in place, and the team is in a position to win. Plus, Ewing is back in the fold! Joy!

    I will always be critical of 'Antoni's ego, his benching, short rotation, not fouling at end of games, lack of plays, etc... but I have to believe his heart was not into it, esp with the hand he was dealt. THIS YEAR we shall see what type of coach Mr. Pringles really is. I'm excited for everyone: KO fans, coaches, players, commentators, etc. There is a sense of enthusiasm I haven't felt in years, so my answer is YES, we can win with this a$$hole coach.

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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    Man, it's so ****ing simple.

    Name one coach - ONE COACH that has been successful with a **** team in a rebuilding phase.

    Just one will suffice.

    Lottery teams are an exception with instantly high picks in the draft.

    Otherwise, to the D'Antoni haters, give him half a year to either prove you right or wrong. Either way, you couldn't have ever predicted the future. All opinions based on assumption are ****ing useless.

    There is a long line of coaches.
    Just look what coaches Del Negro, Skiles, and Adelman did for their teams in the past two seasons.

    Mike Dantoni started off bad in New York by DNP a $23M per Marbury the first 4 games of the season. I will agree with Dantoni for the first 3 games of DNP b/c of a past conflict between the two. The discipline level of the Knick roster was high by making Marbury come off the bench plus being DNP the first 3 games.
    The Knicks had a .500+ winning discipline roster the first 3 games of the 2008-9 season.
    DNP Marbury after the 3rd game became above unruly punishment, which showed weakness on the headcoaches skills in dealing with over-paid star players.
    Marbury & Nate tandem coming off the bench was a great combination of deep depth players in our backcourt along with SF-Chandler giving us 3 slashers to the rim.

    Making the playoff by playing .500+ b.ball in 2008-9 season wouldve gave us the chance to trade 3 of the 4 contracts going into the 2010-11 season in the 2009 offseason.
    We already know GM Walsh is terrible selecting draft picks from Indiana to New York. So tanking shouldve never been in our plans.
    Winning and show casing the four players under contract in 2010-11 season shouldve been our plan the past 2 seasons.

  7. #52
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    There is a long line of coaches.
    Just look what coaches Del Negro, Skiles, and Adelman did for their teams in the past two seasons.

    Mike Dantoni started off bad in New York by DNP a $23M per Marbury the first 4 games of the season. I will agree with Dantoni for the first 3 games of DNP b/c of a past conflict between the two. The discipline level of the Knick roster was high by making Marbury come off the bench plus being DNP the first 3 games.
    The Knicks had a .500+ winning discipline roster the first 3 games of the 2008-9 season.
    DNP Marbury after the 3rd game became above unruly punishment, which showed weakness on the headcoaches skills in dealing with over-paid star players.
    Marbury & Nate tandem coming off the bench was a great combination of deep depth players in our backcourt along with SF-Chandler giving us 3 slashers to the rim.

    Making the playoff by playing .500+ b.ball in 2008-9 season wouldve gave us the chance to trade 3 of the 4 contracts going into the 2010-11 season in the 2009 offseason.
    We already know GM Walsh is terrible selecting draft picks from Indiana to New York. So tanking shouldve never been in our plans.
    Winning and show casing the four players under contract in 2010-11 season shouldve been our plan the past 2 seasons.



    Okay, explain a few things to me since its clear you cant respond to my previous posts in a cogent way:

    How would Marbury and N8 coming off the bench be an effective lineup?

    Don't they play similar styles and don't both need to dominate the ball?

    Do you put any of the blame on Marbury? Are you aware of the fact that he has caused trouble all across the league and is so good that he is now playing in China?

    How does making it to the playoffs ensure we could have traded 3-4 contracts?

    Walsh drafts badly? Hmmm...

    Reggie Miller at I think 11th
    Gallo
    Nabbed Al Harrington with the 25th pick
    Plus don't you cry in almost every thread about Hill another Walsh draft pick?

    Yea he is horrible!

    P.S. You are still ignoring the fact that we were trading players to clear space and D'ant could have made the playoffs with Zbo/Crawford had we decided to go that route. Not only did we take back inferior talent with expiring contracts but the team chemistry was disrupted with each trade. I know none of that matters since your hatred for D'ant is just the latest in your pessimistic outlook that you yourself admitted started in 1999.

  8. #53
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    "Mike D's style was a problem, hopefully not anymore"


    Paul,

    It wasn't the style of play dude. The style is proven. It was the players.. Those rosters were constructed for failure, plain and simple. What'd you expect coach to do w those guys we had?

    Put the right players w D'ant and he does what he does.
    I said that the players were ahtletic slashers, so I gave Mike that as an excuse. Mike D needs shooters andonly Gallo/Walker were that type of player. But everything else was due to his failure as a coach. His substitutions were horrible, his choice of benching rookies that were clearly better than our washed up veterans was a horrible choice.

    His lineups of Lee at Center cost us atleast 15 games last year. What is the point of hainv Lee at Center when he would give up 40+ points in the paint easily?

    And then this is the funniest thing about defending D'Antoni. What was his excuse almost every game for his team not performing well?.......wait for it.......ENERGY. Is that even an excuse? If your team is on a road trip that is a straight week and the last game of the road trip your team is dead tired, ok I understand, but every time you lose a game it's because of energy?!??!

    And you remember the interviews after games when people would ask Mike D what was the reason his team lost. The answer would usually be...."I don't have an answer" with a chuckle(fake laugh) which Mike D always does. OR it would be "We didn't have enough energy out there and got beat"

    He is over rated and the only thing he has to his name is a fast paced offense.

    Again, I am giving this guy one more chance.

    If we don't make the playoffs this year, Mike D is a failure for the 6 million a year he is recieving. And he will be fired. Tell me if he is worth 6 million a year? If that is true than Tom Thibodeau is worth 10 mil.

  9. #54
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    Originally Posted by JayJ44
    I watched our team last year, I'm just as not as quick to immediately blame the coach when our players were garbage for the most part. In both of those quotes he's just trying to talk up his new coach. In the second one, he's clearly trying to deflect his defensive inadequacies on to D'antoni. Do you really believe that the Phoenix suns never practiced defense under D'antoni? That's bull****, they would have never gotten as far as they did if they never practiced defense. Amare was just making an excuse for his bad defense by blaming the coach. If he really thought these things, why would he come to the Knicks with D'antoni? Here's a quote from Jared Jeffries (after a game against us), say what you want about him, but he has no reason to be dishonest and has always been a fairly good guy off the court:

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    We didn't hustle because most of our players are lazy. We made dumb moves on defense because our players are dumb. There's only so much a coach can do. I'm not saying D'antoni is perfect. He made his fair share of mistakes, like in the game you mentioned and also that game in Portland where Brandon Roy was able to hit a gamewinner (I think from last season). But overall, you can't blame him for our team's defensive failures when our players have mostly sucked.

    He had to play David Lee at center because we had NO ONE else. You act as if Jordan Hill was Marcus Camby, meanwhile he was terrible. Whenever he would get playing time he would make so many mistakes, and really do nothing to help the team. Once in a while he would get a nice dunk, that's about it. If you payed attention last year, Jeffries was one of our best defenders last year (sadly). We had no one but Lee and Jeffries to play at center.



    So our players having bad shot selection is somehow D'antoni's fault? You're blaming Duhon's suckitude on D'antoni? We had a bunch of selfish, low IQ players over the years, that's not D'antoni's fault. He worked with what he had. What were you expecting from a team of mostly scrubs? The only players who weren't scrubs were very young.



    Well, you clearly misunderstand the system. It has nothing to do with shooting a bunch 3's. It's just about, ideally, getting a shot before the opposing defense sets. For the most part, we never really saw his true system because we never had the players to fit it.

    Why are you committed to blaming D'antoni entirely for any of the teams failures? Before the season even starts, your blaming D'antoni for any possible failures, regardless of whose fault it really is or would be. Why does it never occur to you to blame the players? They're the one's actually on the floor after all.
    First off, Jeffries obviously likes Mike D because ONLY Mike D would play him starter's minutes. No other team would and as I said, Jordan Hill TOOK OVER his spot when both guys got traded to Houston. So when it comes down to it, Mike D's respect for veterans over shadowed the fact that the rookies were clearly better.

    Hill was bad? HE BARELY PLAYED lol ANd how long did it take D'Anotni to stop playing Duhon, who was probably rhe worst PG in the NBA last year hands down? Douglas did not get minutes until after the all star break....a little to late.

    Also I have to mention the horrible decision to lie to the fans about Marbury's "clean slate" and never play him resulting in another saga. That might have also been Donnie Walsh's call but Mike D lied, and Marbury did blame Mike D. So Mike D is partial blame for that huge mistake.


    Yes Mike D'anotni's system killed Chandler and Duhon's shot. Because they were not good shooters and yet Mike's system was to just hustle and chuck up shots. Chandler wound up playing a shooters game when he is obviouslly a slashing/post up SF who should use his strength to get to the hoop.
    Duhon in his first year was good, because he would drive to the hoop, draw multiple fouls every game and hit his free throws. SO when he would drive to the hoop for the pick and roll, teams had no clue what he was doing. BUT last year Duhon never drove to the hoop, never drew fouls, instead he would do a pick and roll or just stop and pop. He became predictable even to me, who is not a pro basketball player. Point guards guarding Duhon last year must have laughed when guarding him: "okay here comes the pick and roll or I'll just wait for him to drive and pass it out to someone at the three point line." Duhon sucks and got worse when he stopped driving to the hoop thanks to Mike D's run and chuck style.
    Chandler eventually learned to play HIS game and not Mike D's game and at the end of the season before his injury, started to get consistent and shoot at a high percentage. I think Chandler shot 26% from three point land and 47% from inside the three, so why did he constantly shoot three's?!?! The coach is to blame for telling him to stop too late.

    Lee was not the only option at Center. Again wether you follow Mike D's assumption that benching Hill every game was more productive than getting killed in the post with Lee and Jeffries, is what I am trying to figure out. Did you honestly agree with his decisions on substitutions and the lineups??? Did you support never playing Darko Millicic, a 7 foot legit center who is now the starting center for the T Wolves????

    Mike D never gave Jordan Hill or Darko Millicic a chance to play center. He gave Jeffries the keys when he never deserved it. I hope you understand this.



    I'll agree that he would foul a lot but he was a good rebounder, strong, and could hit an open shot, had athleticism and we were honestly wasting our 8t overall pick to get Jeffries minutes so we could showcase him for a trade, yes show case. Do you really think any team would take Jeffries if we not getting starter's minutes? NO team would deal with him.

    Now with the argument of the system. I said in my first response that we did not have the shooters that D'Antoni needed and Amare is a better post presence than what Lee was so this year Mike D has all the pieces to be succesfull. He has good shooters in Gallo, Mason, Walker, Azubuike, Douglas, Felton, and even Amare has a nice mid range shot. Amare can draw defenders away from the shooters hopefully turning the low shooting percentages into better shooting percentages.

    And let me mention that Mike D made Chris Duhon and Al Harrington the leaders of the team last season, both wound up being role players, with Duhon not even playing for a month due to his poor play. How can you make Harrington and Duhon the leaders when only Lee was the consistent Knick the past two season? Mike D hurt this team more than you can imagine the past two seasons.

    Now I have not condemned Mike D this year....yet. I condemn the guy the past two seasons for getting nothing out of our players. His strategies failed and he caused problems inside the club house by benching Larry Hughes who could acutally play defense, by benching Nate who was better than Duhon, by benching Darko who was a legit Center unlike Jeffries and Lee. Would those players have made us a playoff team? No but we would not have been an utter embarissment like we were the past two seasons. Embarissment, remember the many games of wondering what the hell was happening on the side lines and on the court?

    Oh I forgot to mention....he is getting paid 6 million dollars a year.

    Remember that.
    Last edited by Paul1355; Sep 03, 2010 at 15:09.

  10. #55
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    If you watched our team last year you would understand that all the rumors about Mike D not coaching defense is absolutely true.

    Quote from Amare in 2009 knocking Mike D's chemistry and coaching issues:

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    "Mike was a quiet guy. Sometimes he didn't talk to a certain players. Didn't communicate as well to the players which sometimes can be a little frustrating because you want to build that relationship with your coach. You want to build that friend(ship) so you can sit down with him and talk about personal thoughts and also basketball. You want that friendship with your coach. Mike was a quiet guy.

    ...Then you bring in Alvin, a guy who is definitely a players coach. A guy you can talk to and say 'hey man you know', 'family situation here', 'or my kids here', 'my kids are doing great in school', 'how are your kids'. That's the type of conversation you want to have with your coach. Alvin's that guy.

    You want a coach that you can really hug and hold and high five and really have fun with. That makes it fun play. You can high five and hug your team mates. You don't want to have fear of your coach. You want to be respectable with him but you also want to be a friend with him."


    Here is a knock on Mike D's defense by Amare himself in a 2008 interview: “I love Terry Porter, his method,” Stoudemire says in the interview. “His way of coaching is going to be great for us. You know, he’s extremely focused on the defensive end, something that we haven’t practiced at all in the previous three years, and now we’re definitely practicing and improving on the defensive end.”

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    We never hustled on defense, we never tried to block shots, in clutch situations we always made dumb moves on defense like not fouling Kevin Durant to shoot free throws when your up by 3 points, then having him drill a three pointer to tie the game and eventually win it in over time. (That was T Mac's first game as a Knick in MSG if your remember). Why have David Lee start at center all year when you know he can't play defense for his life and his post defense is top 5 worst for all big men. And why bench Jordan Hill when he could have been used at Center being strong, a good shotblocker, and a good rebounder? Instead he played Jared Jeffries who sucked and couldn't block a shot unless the guy he was blocking was under 6'3 and got killed in the post. Then Jeffries winds up barely playing in Houston while Jordan Hill takes over his spot. Mike D's substitutions were the biggest question mark.

    Mike D knows offense, to an extent. Jacking up three's on a team with no shooters except Gallo and Walker last year was a huge mistake. Chandler's numbers plummeted because he was playing Mike D's game and not his game which is close to mid range jumpers. Duhon lost all confidence in his shot since Mike D's style had him throw up bricks. Q Rich killed us with bricks when he was a Knick. Harrington was so streaky It would drive any fan insane. Mike D lived and died by the three with two years of players who were not pure shooters. We were athletic slashers that should have drew more fouls than anything else.

    Now we have a team that can fit Mike's crazy style of running your butt off to throw up bricks. We have shooters that can hit open shots and a presence down low in Amare so I am giving Mike D ONE MORE SHOT.

    So don't sit there and tell me that Mike D's criticism is ridiculous or that it is being over blown or whatever your claim is. He has sucked as a coach and now he has no excuse if we don't make the playoffs since we have enough players that fit his style of run and chuck.

    If Mike D fails again to make the playoffs, then he is gone.
    True Facts from an unbias Knick fan
    BIG-PROPS for Paul

  11. #56
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    First off, Jeffries obviously likes Mike D because ONLY Mike D would play him starter's minutes. No other team would and as I said, Jordan Hill TOOK OVER his spot when both guys got traded to Houston. So when it comes down to it, Mike D's respect for veterans over shadowed the fact that the rookies were clearly better.

    Hill was bad? HE BARELY PLAYED lol ANd how long did it take D'Anotni to stop playing Duhon, who was probably rhe worst PG in the NBA last year hands down? Douglas did not get minutes until after the all star break....a little to late.

    Also I have to mention the horrible decision to lie to the fans about Marbury's "clean slate" and never play him resulting in another saga. That might have also been Donnie Walsh's call but Mike D lied, and Marbury did blame Mike D. So Mike D is partial blame for that huge mistake.


    Yes Mike D'anotni's system killed Chandler and Duhon's shot. Because they were not good shooters and yet Mike's system was to just hustle and chuck up shots. Chandler wound up playing a shooters game when he is obviouslly a slashing/post up SF who should use his strength to get to the hoop.
    Duhon in his first year was good, because he would drive to the hoop, draw multiple fouls every game and hit his free throws. SO when he would drive to the hoop for the pick and roll, teams had no clue what he was doing. BUT last year Duhon never drove to the hoop, never drew fouls, instead he would do a pick and roll or just stop and pop. He became predictable even to me, who is not a pro basketball player. Point guards guarding Duhon last year must have laughed when guarding him: "okay here comes the pick and roll or I'll just wait for him to drive and pass it out to someone at the three point line." Duhon sucks and got worse when he stopped driving to the hoop thanks to Mike D's run and chuck style.
    Chandler eventually learned to play HIS game and not Mike D's game and at the end of the season before his injury, started to get consistent and shoot at a high percentage. I think Chandler shot 26% from three point land and 47% from inside the three, so why did he constantly shoot three's?!?! The coach is to blame for telling him to stop too late.

    Lee was not the only option at Center. Again wether you follow Mike D's assumption that benching Hill every game was more productive than getting killed in the post with Lee and Jeffries, is what I am trying to figure out. Did you honestly agree with his decisions on substitutions and the lineups??? Did you support never playing Darko Millicic, a 7 foot legit center who is now the starting center for the T Wolves????

    Mike D never gave Jordan Hill or Darko Millicic a chance to play center. He gave Jeffries the keys when he never deserved it. I hope you understand this.



    I'll agree that he would foul a lot but he was a good rebounder, strong, and could hit an open shot, had athleticism and we were honestly wasting our 8t overall pick to get Jeffries minutes so we could showcase him for a trade, yes show case. Do you really think any team would take Jeffries if we not getting starter's minutes? NO team would deal with him.

    Now with the argument of the system. I said in my first response that we did not have the shooters that D'Antoni needed and Amare is a better post presence than what Lee was so this year Mike D has all the pieces to be succesfull. He has good shooters in Gallo, Mason, Walker, Azubuike, Douglas, Felton, and even Amare has a nice mid range shot. Amare can draw defenders away from the shooters hopefully turning the low shooting percentages into better shooting percentages.

    And let me mention that Mike D made Chris Duhon and Al Harrington the leaders of the team last season, both wound up being role players, with Duhon not even playing for a month due to his poor play. How can you make Harrington and Duhon the leaders when only Lee was the consistent Knick the past two season? Mike D hurt this team more than you can imagine the past two seasons.

    Now I have not condemned Mike D this year....yet. I condemn the guy the past two seasons for getting nothing out of our players. His strategies failed and he caused problems inside the club house by benching Larry Hughes who could acutally play defense, by benching Nate who was better than Duhon, by benching Darko who was a legit Center unlike Jeffries and Lee. Would those players have made us a playoff team? No but we would not have been an utter embarissment like we were the past two seasons. Embarissment, remember the many games of wondering what the hell was happening on the side lines and on the court?

    Oh I forgot to mention....he is getting paid 6 million dollars a year.

    Remember that.
    Paul.... Great Post

    I made these same facts in our Game-Threads where it was obvious for all
    viewers, but mentioning it in game thread after game thread made me a
    Dantoni Hater.
    And Walsh gets no points from letting Dantoni DNP our highest payed players
    (Marbury & Hughes) longer than the first 3 games of the season. Whatever
    point Dantoni was trying to get across only took 3 straight DNP, after that it
    is considered personal-conflict on Dantoni's part.
    Donnie Walsh trading Zach & Crawford was bad bad "time-ing", when the
    same teams he traded those players to wanted to make the trade during the
    offseason. So why have Zach & Crawford a strong part of our rotation in
    training-camp/preseason games/and our starters at the start of the regular
    season games? and then to trade Zach & Crawford when Knick fans were so
    happy at finally starting the season with an above .500+ record the first 10
    games (7-5 record) of the season. Didnt Walsh know its been over a
    decade since Knicks got off to a great start of the season above .500+???

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    At the end of the day, I don't see how you can fault a guy for not winning with a team that was not trying to win. No more really needs to be said.

    Since when do expiring contract players stop trying to overachieve their
    performance in their final contract year? u may have one out of 20 players.

    Our 4 game win streak was Larry Hughes outstanding performance.
    Darko & Nate had some great performances on the teams we traded them too.
    Harrington did not overachieve he stayed at his career role as the 3rd option
    on offense with a 17 pt, 5 rbd performance.
    D.League Earl Barron gave us a double-double performance in each game he
    played for us.
    David Lee really overachieved by having a 20-11 season.
    u may think that one player out of 20 was Duhon performance, it could be
    true, but Duhon was not given a starting SG or energy Nate playing SG off
    the bench last season to take pressure off his back like the previous season.

  13. #58
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    First off, Jeffries obviously likes Mike D because ONLY Mike D would play him starter's minutes. No other team would and as I said, Jordan Hill TOOK OVER his spot when both guys got traded to Houston. So when it comes down to it, Mike D's respect for veterans over shadowed the fact that the rookies were clearly better.

    Hill was bad? HE BARELY PLAYED lol ANd how long did it take D'Anotni to stop playing Duhon, who was probably rhe worst PG in the NBA last year hands down? Douglas did not get minutes until after the all star break....a little to late.

    Also I have to mention the horrible decision to lie to the fans about Marbury's "clean slate" and never play him resulting in another saga. That might have also been Donnie Walsh's call but Mike D lied, and Marbury did blame Mike D. So Mike D is partial blame for that huge mistake.


    Yes Mike D'anotni's system killed Chandler and Duhon's shot. Because they were not good shooters and yet Mike's system was to just hustle and chuck up shots. Chandler wound up playing a shooters game when he is obviouslly a slashing/post up SF who should use his strength to get to the hoop.
    Duhon in his first year was good, because he would drive to the hoop, draw multiple fouls every game and hit his free throws. SO when he would drive to the hoop for the pick and roll, teams had no clue what he was doing. BUT last year Duhon never drove to the hoop, never drew fouls, instead he would do a pick and roll or just stop and pop. He became predictable even to me, who is not a pro basketball player. Point guards guarding Duhon last year must have laughed when guarding him: "okay here comes the pick and roll or I'll just wait for him to drive and pass it out to someone at the three point line." Duhon sucks and got worse when he stopped driving to the hoop thanks to Mike D's run and chuck style.
    Chandler eventually learned to play HIS game and not Mike D's game and at the end of the season before his injury, started to get consistent and shoot at a high percentage. I think Chandler shot 26% from three point land and 47% from inside the three, so why did he constantly shoot three's?!?! The coach is to blame for telling him to stop too late.

    Lee was not the only option at Center. Again wether you follow Mike D's assumption that benching Hill every game was more productive than getting killed in the post with Lee and Jeffries, is what I am trying to figure out. Did you honestly agree with his decisions on substitutions and the lineups??? Did you support never playing Darko Millicic, a 7 foot legit center who is now the starting center for the T Wolves????

    Mike D never gave Jordan Hill or Darko Millicic a chance to play center. He gave Jeffries the keys when he never deserved it. I hope you understand this.



    I'll agree that he would foul a lot but he was a good rebounder, strong, and could hit an open shot, had athleticism and we were honestly wasting our 8t overall pick to get Jeffries minutes so we could showcase him for a trade, yes show case. Do you really think any team would take Jeffries if we not getting starter's minutes? NO team would deal with him.

    Now with the argument of the system. I said in my first response that we did not have the shooters that D'Antoni needed and Amare is a better post presence than what Lee was so this year Mike D has all the pieces to be succesfull. He has good shooters in Gallo, Mason, Walker, Azubuike, Douglas, Felton, and even Amare has a nice mid range shot. Amare can draw defenders away from the shooters hopefully turning the low shooting percentages into better shooting percentages.

    And let me mention that Mike D made Chris Duhon and Al Harrington the leaders of the team last season, both wound up being role players, with Duhon not even playing for a month due to his poor play. How can you make Harrington and Duhon the leaders when only Lee was the consistent Knick the past two season? Mike D hurt this team more than you can imagine the past two seasons.

    Now I have not condemned Mike D this year....yet. I condemn the guy the past two seasons for getting nothing out of our players. His strategies failed and he caused problems inside the club house by benching Larry Hughes who could acutally play defense, by benching Nate who was better than Duhon, by benching Darko who was a legit Center unlike Jeffries and Lee. Would those players have made us a playoff team? No but we would not have been an utter embarissment like we were the past two seasons. Embarissment, remember the many games of wondering what the hell was happening on the side lines and on the court?

    Oh I forgot to mention....he is getting paid 6 million dollars a year.

    Remember that.
    Paul you sound like Kiyaman posting this ridiculous, diluted nonsense and I'm very disappointed in you...

    I refuse to argue anymore on this players V the system topic. On THIS issue Kiya and sadly you too cannot see the forest through the trees.

  14. #59
    Member BleedOrange&Blue's Avatar
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    Default Interesting debate

    I posted this question hoping to get a feel for where Knicks fans are at and I can say there are some real points on both sides. As for D'Antoni's Defense, when i originally said his lack of emphasis on defense and rebounding i did not mean that he did not preach it but rather the personal he tends to assemble and utilize often lack the skill sets needed to provide his teams with just that.

    I felt his innovative use of Jared Jeffries as the anchor of the zone defense shows that he has some defensive competence. Where I find fault is in his reluctance to incorporate good 2 way players into his rotation. Hopefully with players like Randolph, Chandler, Turiaf and Felton we will have some semblance of a playoff defense. If you look at recent championship contending teams, they weren't necessarily all good defenders but they had role players that could lockdown their position and help out: Posey, Ariza, Artest, Battier, Barnes often are under-appreciated as crticial pieces to title runs. While Felton, Gallo and Amare comprise our big offensive "3" I am looking for D'Antoni to give substantial consideration to the defensive weapons in his possession; in particular Randolph who I have grown to appreciate as a do it all role player/potential star.

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    Originally Posted by BleedOrange&Blue
    I posted this question hoping to get a feel for where Knicks fans are at and I can say there are some real points on both sides. As for D'Antoni's Defense, when i originally said his lack of emphasis on defense and rebounding i did not mean that he did not preach it but rather the personal he tends to assemble and utilize often lack the skill sets needed to provide his teams with just that.

    I felt his innovative use of Jared Jeffries as the anchor of the zone defense shows that he has some defensive competence. Where I find fault is in his reluctance to incorporate good 2 way players into his rotation. Hopefully with players like Randolph, Chandler, Turiaf and Felton we will have some semblance of a playoff defense. If you look at recent championship contending teams, they weren't necessarily all good defenders but they had role players that could lockdown their position and help out: Posey, Ariza, Artest, Battier, Barnes often are under-appreciated as crticial pieces to title runs. While Felton, Gallo and Amare comprise our big offensive "3" I am looking for D'Antoni to give substantial consideration to the defensive weapons in his possession; in particular Randolph who I have grown to appreciate as a do it all role player/potential star.
    He's shown this ability in the past tho w players like Diaw, who can defend and is solid on O. He used to let Diaw guard Duncan in the post w decent success. The Spurs didn't have a player who could guard him cause he could cause havoc inside and outside. D'ant used to use him really effectively. Raja Bell was decent both ways as well.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Sep 04, 2010 at 14:46.

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