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Thread: Can We Win w/ D'Antoni

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    Originally Posted by iJoe
    Heh, thats the best you can do? You're just proving my point. Grow a pair and try debating a topic without PMSing.
    You have no point but to be a rock in my shoe

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    Originally Posted by smokes
    I haven't read all 6 pages of this and I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but there is one clear reason why D'antoni and his system is not effective on the defensive end of the floor.

    The whole emphasis of the offense is getting all 5 players up the court as quickly as possible and out "running/gunning" the other team. Every rebound is a potential fast break, every steal/block is a potential fast break.

    When you have players rushing up the court as quickly as they can this naturally takes its toll on their energy levels. When you play for a quick score and don't run a half court set the players are constantly on the move. Then when the players get back on the defensive end, they need to rest before the next offensive possession.

    This is further compounded by the fact D'antoni runs a short rotation of players giving the players he does play even less time to rest.

    Physically you can only have so much energy over a 48 minute game. This system encourages short sharp bursts of physical exersion which are physiologically more stamina draining.

    Whether D'antoni preaches defense in every time out is not really a big deal, considering the way he runs his offense has players tired out and needing to rest on each defensive play.

    For us to have a truly solid defensive capability, we need to have a more balanced emphasis on offense/defense.
    Thank you smokes for once a voice of reason. It is truly a paradox to think that a coach that wants you to get a shot off in 7 sec or less leaving most of the shot clock coaches defense. You have to be an idiot for TRILL to believe that. There is such a thing as ball control and clock mananagement, which the Knicks have none. The Knicks were 23rd out of 30 teams in three major defensive catagories: rebounds, blocks, steals. Sometimes stats don't lie. Forget about some youtube videos. Stats will tell the truth about this team and how D'ant coaches it.

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    Originally Posted by smokes
    I haven't read all 6 pages of this and I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but there is one clear reason why D'antoni and his system is not effective on the defensive end of the floor.

    The whole emphasis of the offense is getting all 5 players up the court as quickly as possible and out "running/gunning" the other team. Every rebound is a potential fast break, every steal/block is a potential fast break.

    When you have players rushing up the court as quickly as they can this naturally takes its toll on their energy levels. When you play for a quick score and don't run a half court set the players are constantly on the move. Then when the players get back on the defensive end, they need to rest before the next offensive possession.

    This is further compounded by the fact D'antoni runs a short rotation of players giving the players he does play even less time to rest.

    Physically you can only have so much energy over a 48 minute game. This system encourages short sharp bursts of physical exersion which are physiologically more stamina draining.

    Whether D'antoni preaches defense in every time out is not really a big deal, considering the way he runs his offense has players tired out and needing to rest on each defensive play.

    For us to have a truly solid defensive capability, we need to have a more balanced emphasis on offense/defense.
    Smokes, I appreciate this post since you are at least trying to present a rationale that is on topic but you forget two things.

    1. This is a matter of conditioning and it goes both ways. Simply put, if the Knicks run this system nightly they will be in better condition then their opponents and run them ragged. You forget that there will be two teams on the court and the Knicks will be the ones controlling the pace and having the conditioning to outlast their opponent. That gives us a distinct advantage on BOTH ends of the court.

    2.Citing a perceived downside to a system is very different then claiming D'ant doesn't coach or care about defense like some on this forum believe.

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    And you never answered my bet Trillwoman.... 35 games more or less.... put up or shut up .... If you have so much faith in this team, your coach, your youtube videos, our new "all-star", then bet me. You are great at slinging stupid names like the shrimp on the playground hiding on the other side of the slide, but this is where the rubber meets the road. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR BIG MOUTH IS......PUT YOUR REP(OR LACK THEREOF) ON THIS TEAM AS CURRENTLY COMPRISED AND COACHED
    Jimqueef the Style Thief, you are a loser and everyone can see that. Keep fixating on some stupid bet all while betting AGAINST a team you claim to be a fan of. You are a sad old man acting like a prepubescent schoolboy who runs around and tries to show off his first 3 inch erection.

    You can't help but show your disdain for the Knicks and your inability to talk about the subject in a competent way so you resort to nonsense all while continuing to look like a d-bag hypocrite. Do us all a favor and go masturbate to Eddy Curry's pics for the 1000th time and leave this forum to the real Knick fans. Thanks!
    Last edited by TR1LL10N; Sep 08, 2010 at 08:28.

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Thank you smokes for once a voice of reason. It is truly a paradox to think that a coach that wants you to get a shot off in 7 sec or less leaving most of the shot clock coaches defense. You have to be an idiot for TRILL to believe that. There is such a thing as ball control and clock mananagement, which the Knicks have none. The Knicks were 23rd out of 30 teams in three major defensive catagories: rebounds, blocks, steals. Sometimes stats don't lie. Forget about some youtube videos. Stats will tell the truth about this team and how D'ant coaches it.

    Well lookey here...it took someone else to make a point for you to attempt sounding knowledgeable. How about you try to think for yourself Old Yeller? Too bad I made a strong counterpoint in my post towards Smokes that your feeble brain was too stupid to anticipate.

    We had terrible stats on defense because we had terrible defenders and kept losing chemistry with each trade. I bet you think Larry Brown could have come in and made us a good defensive team...oh wait! Larry Brown, a future hall of fame coach and defensive specialist led us to a 23-59 record and we gave up 102.00 pts a game. (27th in league and same as 2010) But...but how could this be!? I'll tell you nimrod...because our roster sucked just like it did since D'ant took over as coach. Effing moron!
    Last edited by TR1LL10N; Sep 08, 2010 at 08:40.

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    Lenny Wilkens, Larry Brown and Isiah Thomas all had losing records with the Knicks yet had marginally better rosters than D'ant. D'ant while not perfect presided over a two year rebuilding and cap shedding plan yet gets hated on by clueless so called fans. SMFH!

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    You have no point but to be a rock in my shoe
    I think you need to buy a pad. Your vagina is bleeding all over the floor.

    You're only making yourself look bad. Do yourself a favor and find whats making you so miserable in life.

  8. #98
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Well lookey here...it took someone else to make a point for you to attempt sounding knowledgeable. How about you try to think for yourself Old Yeller? Too bad I made a strong counterpoint in my post towards Smokes that your feeble brain was too stupid to anticipate.

    We had terrible stats on defense because we had terrible defenders and kept losing chemistry with each trade. I bet you think Larry Brown could have come in and made us a good defensive team...oh wait! Larry Brown, a future hall of fame coach and defensive specialist led us to a 23-59 record and we gave up 102.00 pts a game. (27th in league and same as 2010) But...but how could this be!? I'll tell you nimrod...because our roster sucked just like it did since D'ant took over as coach. Effing moron!
    Listen Trill

    We have celebrity coach Damnphony there mucking everything up. Nevermind the fact that the goal of last season was to audition players to trade them, and that fact was open and obvious to everyone in the blue and orange last year.

    DAMPHONY DIDN'T PLAY DARKO!!!!! HOW CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE?!?!?! He was overall #2 draft pick and if you listen to my conspiracy theory, it was all done out of spite because Damphony wanted his Godson Gallinari, who is at best an end-of-the-bench player in this league, to be the best European on the team. Proof? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN PROOF!

    We must sign PF/C Earl Barron otherwise our team is totally doomed. Look, just because nobody wants him (which is why he is a free agent) I know that secretly this is all a ploy to give us the next Hakeem Olajuwon.

    Why do you think we had such bad defense? Because James Dolan and Stephon Marbury convinced all of our players to just stand around so that they could fire Larry Brown!!! It has nothing to do with the talent at all!

    The fact that these past 2 seasons were auditions for the trade deadline to clear cap space and gain flexibility means absolutely nothing to me! We had JAMAL CRAWFORD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! We should have been a 50-win team!!!!! Walsh and Damnphony is lying to you peoples. They don't care about winning, that's why they took on one of the most difficult tasks in the NBA, turning around the New York Knicks. All they care about is getting their celebrity and popularity up. Why do you think they keep purposely losing? To get a better contract elsewhere because Damphony is a celebrity coach (a term which I still have not defined)!!!!!! Forget the fact that when Walsh got here he said his main goal was to attain cap flexibility to rebuild via free agency (a goal which he attained), this was all a ploy to create super human robotic NBA players for his OWN franchise he is bringing to midwest basketball-starved St. Louis...can't you read between the lines!

    I have more conspiracy theories if you would like to hear them.

    (end Kiyaman rant)


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    This is what you idiots sound like.

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Listen Trill

    We have celebrity coach Damnphony there mucking everything up. Nevermind the fact that the goal of last season was to audition players to trade them, and that fact was open and obvious to everyone in the blue and orange last year.

    DAMPHONY DIDN'T PLAY DARKO!!!!! HOW CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE?!?!?! He was overall #2 draft pick and if you listen to my conspiracy theory, it was all done out of spite because Damphony wanted his Godson Gallinari, who is at best an end-of-the-bench player in this league, to be the best European on the team. Proof? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN PROOF!

    We must sign PF/C Earl Barron otherwise our team is totally doomed. Look, just because nobody wants him (which is why he is a free agent) I know that secretly this is all a ploy to give us the next Hakeem Olajuwon.

    Why do you think we had such bad defense? Because James Dolan and Stephon Marbury convinced all of our players to just stand around so that they could fire Larry Brown!!! It has nothing to do with the talent at all!

    I have more conspiracy theories if you would like to hear them.

    (end Kiyaman rant)


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    This is what you idiots sound like.
    LOL...true, sad and funny at the same time.

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Listen Trill

    We have celebrity coach Damnphony there mucking everything up. Nevermind the fact that the goal of last season was to audition players to trade them, and that fact was open and obvious to everyone in the blue and orange last year.

    DAMPHONY DIDN'T PLAY DARKO!!!!! HOW CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE?!?!?! He was overall #2 draft pick and if you listen to my conspiracy theory, it was all done out of spite because Damphony wanted his Godson Gallinari, who is at best an end-of-the-bench player in this league, to be the best European on the team. Proof? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN PROOF!

    We must sign PF/C Earl Barron otherwise our team is totally doomed. Look, just because nobody wants him (which is why he is a free agent) I know that secretly this is all a ploy to give us the next Hakeem Olajuwon.

    Why do you think we had such bad defense? Because James Dolan and Stephon Marbury convinced all of our players to just stand around so that they could fire Larry Brown!!! It has nothing to do with the talent at all!

    The fact that these past 2 seasons were auditions for the trade deadline to clear cap space and gain flexibility means absolutely nothing to me! We had JAMAL CRAWFORD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! We should have been a 50-win team!!!!! Walsh and Damnphony is lying to you peoples. They don't care about winning, that's why they took on one of the most difficult tasks in the NBA, turning around the New York Knicks. All they care about is getting their celebrity and popularity up. Why do you think they keep purposely losing? To get a better contract elsewhere because Damphony is a celebrity coach (a term which I still have not defined)!!!!!! Forget the fact that when Walsh got here he said his main goal was to attain cap flexibility to rebuild via free agency (a goal which he attained), this was all a ploy to create super human robotic NBA players for his OWN franchise he is bringing to midwest basketball-starved St. Louis...can't you read between the lines!

    I have more conspiracy theories if you would like to hear them

    This is what you idiots sound like.


    K-Black....u and I been going at it for 2 years without any sillyshuuuut.
    now u lost your mind from me being pessimistically right for 2 seasons
    to the point of this silly@ss post above wid my name on it. com'on dont
    change-up on a real MF...er like me
    u could just stick with the clearing-cap reason for every subject,
    it suit u best. let Kiya be Kiya and
    leave the subject of players/coaches/ and trades to every one else.
    Shaq already proved Damtoni is clueless of coaching a center.
    Crawful was the best trade Walsh made as the Knick president.
    Or do u think our cap space of Felton/Randolph/Amare has become Steve
    Nash to bring Damntoni backup to "celebrity status".
    Steve Nash ran the SSOL system last season in Phoenix, and will run it this
    upcoming season too. will celebrity coach Damnphony finally run his famous
    SSOL system in his 3rd season with the Knicks?
    Whats the name of Larry Brown system again???

  11. #101
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Listen Trill

    We have celebrity coach Damnphony there mucking everything up. Nevermind the fact that the goal of last season was to audition players to trade them, and that fact was open and obvious to everyone in the blue and orange last year.

    DAMPHONY DIDN'T PLAY DARKO!!!!! HOW CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE?!?!?! He was overall #2 draft pick and if you listen to my conspiracy theory, it was all done out of spite because Damphony wanted his Godson Gallinari, who is at best an end-of-the-bench player in this league, to be the best European on the team. Proof? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN PROOF!

    We must sign PF/C Earl Barron otherwise our team is totally doomed. Look, just because nobody wants him (which is why he is a free agent) I know that secretly this is all a ploy to give us the next Hakeem Olajuwon.

    Why do you think we had such bad defense? Because James Dolan and Stephon Marbury convinced all of our players to just stand around so that they could fire Larry Brown!!! It has nothing to do with the talent at all!

    The fact that these past 2 seasons were auditions for the trade deadline to clear cap space and gain flexibility means absolutely nothing to me! We had JAMAL CRAWFORD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! We should have been a 50-win team!!!!! Walsh and Damnphony is lying to you peoples. They don't care about winning, that's why they took on one of the most difficult tasks in the NBA, turning around the New York Knicks. All they care about is getting their celebrity and popularity up. Why do you think they keep purposely losing? To get a better contract elsewhere because Damphony is a celebrity coach (a term which I still have not defined)!!!!!! Forget the fact that when Walsh got here he said his main goal was to attain cap flexibility to rebuild via free agency (a goal which he attained), this was all a ploy to create super human robotic NBA players for his OWN franchise he is bringing to midwest basketball-starved St. Louis...can't you read between the lines!

    I have more conspiracy theories if you would like to hear them.

    (end Kiyaman rant)


    ------------

    This is what you idiots sound like.

    Nicely player sir..

  12. #102
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    Love how you dudes just say some stupid insult to Kiya and then you all say "good job, well said" and all this 4th grade commentary.

    Look if you honestly feel that D'Antoni was not an embarissment the past two years, then you did not watch many Knick games. Plain and Simple. These arguments are like fans just watched Mike D's Suns teams and then watched a handful of Knicks games. He is overrated. That has been proven. His style players love, if they can shoot.

    Sitting there game after game just watching a poorly coached, poorly played, lack of will team to want to not do anything above average for their coach. These guys were embarrassing. They did not fit Mike's style and Mike did not care and made them conform to it anyways, resulting in another F of a season. Mike benched the wrong players and over played the wrong players. The Knicks coaching staff can't teach defense and Herb Williams is a waste. Kenny Atkinson acts like a strength and fitness coach and nothing else... always talks with his only reason for wins and loses being "energy". The only guy that might be decent on this team is Phil Weber. The problem is that Mike D has that ego factor and prob won't listen to what most of his staff says concerning rotations and offense/defensive schemes.

    Ego's kill players. Ego's kill teams. Unless Mike D expands this rotation, we are going to have a lot of pissed off players come mid season.

  13. #103
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Love how you dudes just say some stupid insult to Kiya and then you all say "good job, well said" and all this 4th grade commentary.

    Look if you honestly feel that D'Antoni was not an embarissment the past two years, then you did not watch many Knick games. Plain and Simple. These arguments are like fans just watched Mike D's Suns teams and then watched a handful of Knicks games. He is overrated. That has been proven. His style players love, if they can shoot.

    Sitting there game after game just watching a poorly coached, poorly played, lack of will team to want to not do anything above average for their coach. These guys were embarrassing. They did not fit Mike's style and Mike did not care and made them conform to it anyways, resulting in another F of a season. Mike benched the wrong players and over played the wrong players. The Knicks coaching staff can't teach defense and Herb Williams is a waste. Kenny Atkinson acts like a strength and fitness coach and nothing else... always talks with his only reason for wins and loses being "energy". The only guy that might be decent on this team is Phil Weber. The problem is that Mike D has that ego factor and prob won't listen to what most of his staff says concerning rotations and offense/defensive schemes.

    Ego's kill players. Ego's kill teams. Unless Mike D expands this rotation, we are going to have a lot of pissed off players come mid season.
    Paul - how does everything you are saying fit EXACTLY into the narrative that everyone opposing you is stating?!?!

    The very fact that these guys did not want to do anything above average is directly attributable to the fact that they knew (a) they were not part of the future, the plan to get under the cap was in effect, (b) anything they did well would just send them packing. How do you go about motivating a team when your motivating speech ultimately boils down to: play hard so we can trade you. Lee was the only one motivated to try his balls off (and it showed) because he knew he had the possibility of a BIG contract on the horizon.

    Are you trying to argue that the lack of will to do anything, the lack of energy, had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that every single person in the locker room besides MAYBE Gallinari knew they were on the trading block? Again, your argument of lack of will is attributable, in my eyes, to the private and very public acknowledgment that the goal was to TRADE EVERYONE ON THE TEAM FOR EXPIRING DEALS!

    You talk about the ego of D'Antoni, what about the egos he eradicated from the team? Stephon Marbury - egomaniac crazy person. Jamal Crawford - thinks he's hot **** because he won 6th man of the year and now wants a trade. Nate Robinson - thinks he can shoot the ball at the other team's basket and not be reprimanded. Al Harrington was sent packing as soon as his deal was done, we didn't even TRY to resign him.

    All I see from D'Antoni haters is people saying "He should have done x, y and z so we could have won" and that misses the point. First of all, x, y and z are things like "Play Darko Milicic" (really, a human being is begging to see MORE Darko?), "Sign Earl Barron or we are doomed" (there's a reason this guy hasn't been signed with 6 weeks left to the season, and it ain't because he's a star in the making).

    Second of all, this season was about auditions. Why do you think he played Jared Jefferies guarding the 1 every night? Because that was the best defensive matchup that gave us the best chance to win? Anyone with half a brain knows that isn't the case...it was done to showcase Jefferies' versatility so that we could trade him. Guys like Nate got benched for one simple reason: he mouthed off to the coach. Quick hint: If you want to play, stay on the coach's good side and don't mouth off when you get reprimanded for being an *******.

    I see complaints about D'Antoni not knowing how to work with centers...Pure centers on D'Antoni's teams included the likes of such superstars as Jake Voshkul and Pat Burke. The one year with O'Neal any person with one working brain cell could understand Shaq is a very specific role player that had no true place on a run-and-gun, end-to-end team. Even last year, the Cavs were more effective when they went with their small and fast lineup and had Shaq as far away as possible.

    Anyone who is going to argue with me that Kurt Thomas, when on the team, could handle the likes of Tim Duncan in the West has much more problems than I can care to deal with. And the "he didn't play Thomas" narrative is WAY overstated (looking at you Kiyaman). In his time in Phoenix Thomas played in a total of 120 games and 2,619 minutes. That's 21.825 minutes per game. On his career, Thomas AVERAGED 25.6 minutes per game. IN FACT, post-Phoenix, Thomas average 18 minutes per game. That means not only did D'Antoni play Thomas close to the average # of minutes per game he played on his career and MORE than Thomas EVER played again. So, Kiyaman, word of advice: shut up with your ridiculously unfounded Kurt Thomas argument to show how "underutilized" he was by D'Antoni.

    At the end of the day, not a soul on this board has answered the question, and in light of the above I believe it will be even harder:

    How can you blame Mike D'Antoni for not winning with a team that was not trying to win, and openly acknowledged that they were not trying to win?
    Last edited by KBlack25; Sep 08, 2010 at 23:08.

  14. #104
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Smokes, I appreciate this post since you are at least trying to present a rationale that is on topic but you forget two things.

    1. This is a matter of conditioning and it goes both ways. Simply put, if the Knicks run this system nightly they will be in better condition then their opponents and run them ragged. You forget that there will be two teams on the court and the Knicks will be the ones controlling the pace and having the conditioning to outlast their opponent. That gives us a distinct advantage on BOTH ends of the court.

    2.Citing a perceived downside to a system is very different then claiming D'ant doesn't coach or care about defense like some on this forum believe.
    Yeah I don't believe he doesn't care about defense at all but he is kind of misguided to believe that with the offensive system he encourages the players can still play great defense.

    Your first point I don't agree with, purely because this is the NBA. These players work out day in day out, even the least "athletic" players are still great athletes with good mental and physical stamina.

    I don't think playing this system night in night out makes our team physically superior and therefore able to play both ends of the court with the amount of energy required.

    It's all about balance and for the last two seasons we didn't have that balance. That's not to say we won't have something resembling it this season, but we have to run at least a 9-10 man rotation and have roleplayers doing their role as oppose to everyone playing the role of part-time scorer.

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    Originally Posted by smokes
    Yeah I don't believe he doesn't care about defense at all but he is kind of misguided to believe that with the offensive system he encourages the players can still play great defense.

    Your first point I don't agree with, purely because this is the NBA. These players work out day in day out, even the least "athletic" players are still great athletes with good mental and physical stamina.

    I don't think playing this system night in night out makes our team physically superior and therefore able to play both ends of the court with the amount of energy required.

    It's all about balance and for the last two seasons we didn't have that balance. That's not to say we won't have something resembling it this season, but we have to run at least a 9-10 man rotation and have roleplayers doing their role as oppose to everyone playing the role of part-time scorer.
    smokes-

    I don't think anyone is here saying that D'Antoni is the perfect coach (except for maybe jpz)...but just like in any sport coaches have specialties. To me, to think that an NBA Coach, or really a coach at any meaningful level, is as clueless about half of the game as some people purport is ignorant on many levels. I just think that D'Antoni's viewpoint is that to win the game you have to score more points than your opponent. This is not the Knicks of the early 1990s that smashed teams in the paint and slowed the game down, I know that's hard to come to grips with that. But in the day and age of the hand-check foul and the general pussification of the NBA it is harder to be a smash-mouth defensive team, and much easier to be a run-and-gun speed team (as the league rules open up the offensive game).

    I also think the shortened roster is over-stated. In 2005-06 and 2006-07, the Suns coached by Mike D'Antoni played EIGHT guys over 1,000 minutes on the season, and split another 1000 minutes between 4 guys...so he did essentially use a 9 man rotation. These past two seasons, as I have said over and over, were about auditioning guys and so the rotation was shortened up to showcase pieces for trade. I bet he goes back to an 8-9 man rotation (as he used in PHX) with his hand-picked guys on the roster.

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