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Thread: Knicks working to make a Deal with Denver

  1. #91
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    I don't want it to seem like I don't like our current squad tho. I gladly welcome Melo to wait a year and join as a FA next summer. But if it comes down to us being able to get him for Gallo and AR, or he gets traded to another team he's willing to sign for, I say go get him.

    But either way, gonna be good times at the Garden (already got people that didn't want to get season tix earlier now trying to buy the tickets off of me for big games.)

    So no matter what, we're good.

  2. #92
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    You and I will again have to agree to disagree on the whole great PG versus great scoring wing player debate.

    You know where I stand. I feel Paul is too good of PG to pass up. You obviously feel Melo is too good to pass up. Nothing new here.

    What I'm commenting on is your dramatic reversal. I, like LJ4ptplay, was surprised to see it too. What happened to your thoughts on how it would be sooooooo unstoppable to have three players over 6'10'' w differing skill sets???? "How do you stop it!?!", were your words if I remember correctly, lol..

    I could start throwing out your posts, but that would just be over the top, no need. It's just interesting to see things play out I guess. You a funny dude Knuck.

    Oh, and those same people you tout have been wrong about so many players. You keep deferring to them. It's obvious you have no confidence in your own ability to assess what you see with your own two eyes. Whatevs, we'll see if the random dude is right....
    Last edited by ronoranina; Sep 27, 2010 at 19:08.

  3. #93
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Does this argument sound familiar?

    I'm surprised that the (Denver Nuggets) would give up (Carmello Anthony). He's a great acquisition for the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. This trade immediately benefits the Knicks. I have a high regard for (Anthony) -- he's a tremendous talent. I believe Anthony is the second-best (swingman) in the NBA.
    With this deal, it appears (Denver) is throwing in the towel on this season. Can the Nuggets do something profitable with the two first-round draft picks from the Knicks? Only time will tell.



    But the Knicks are much better prepared now for a potential playoff run. To earn a playoff spot in the East, I expect that a team will need at least a .500 record...



    Clearly, new president/GM (Donnie Walsh) is going to work in New York. (Anthony) and (Stoudemire) should be a great...combination. Anthony will give the Knicks a shot in the arm. He can create his own shots and create opportunities for teammates.


    (Danillo Gallinari) who goes to the (Nuggets), is playing better after missing (a) season with a (back) injury. And the Nuggets can get by with (Wilson Chandler) and (Anthony Randolph) (the other two Knicks in the deal) at (the 3). But neither is (Carmello Anthony), to be sure.
    Sounds like some people on this board re: Carmello...right?


    The above excerpt was pulled from Dr. Jack Ramsey's analysis of the Stephon Marbury trade in 2004. I changed the names to match our current state, and the trade as it would appear.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

  4. #94
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Damn KBlack, pure friggin gold right there.

  5. #95
    Veteran jpz17's Avatar
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    if we give Randolph, Gallo, and Douglas is DO NOT APPROVE OF A MELO DEAL

  6. #96
    Member XxWinKnicksxX's Avatar
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    Wait kblack, Are you really comparing Stephon Marbury to Carmelo Anthony

  7. #97
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by XxWinKnicksxX
    Wait kblack, Are you really comparing Stephon Marbury to Carmelo Anthony
    I'm comparing the people who sat there and said draft picks were expendable for "proven stars" when we traded for Steph to those who say draft picks and young talent is expendable for "proven stars".

    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I'm fine with giving up Gallo OR AR with a couple 2nd rounders, but not both.

  8. #98
    Member XxWinKnicksxX's Avatar
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    I agree with that logic, but this is Carmelo Anthony IMO and both those guys are not proven elite superstars that can take there team to the playoffs every year single handedly.

  9. #99
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Does this argument sound familiar?



    Sounds like some people on this board re: Carmello...right?


    The above excerpt was pulled from Dr. Jack Ramsey's analysis of the Stephon Marbury trade in 2004. I changed the names to match our current state, and the trade as it would appear.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Two things...

    1. Melo is better than Marbury and would be comming to a team capable of competing.

    2. The acquisition of Marbury did actually lead to a playoff birth. (a quick one)

    So while this was a cute post the comparisons are ceretainly flawed. Melo is the real deal and paired along side Amare and Felton def. makes us a contender.

  10. #100
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Two things...

    1. Melo is better than Marbury and would be comming to a team capable of competing.
    According to the article written then, Steph was considered the 2nd best PG in the league at the time. And we were a team capable of competing when Steph got to us. And we gave up two draft picks for him.

    Originally Posted by TRILLION
    2. The acquisition of Marbury did actually lead to a playoff birth. (a quick one)
    If you find the Stephon Marbury trade a success because of one horrible playoff series then I feel bad for you.

    Originally Posted by TRILLION
    So while this was a cute post the comparisons are ceretainly flawed. Melo is the real deal and paired along side Amare and Felton def. makes us a contender.
    Again, that's what Dr. Jack Ramsey said, almost to a T, about Stephon being paired with Houston.

    The point is - everyone against trading prospects says we are just trading the "unknown". They said the same thing when we traded for Steph. Oh we will be good when those draft picks come up because we are going to be an amazing team".

    They said the same thing when we traded for Curry. "Oh we will be good when those draft picks come up because we are going to be an amazing team".


    Sorry, but a team of Felton-Carmello-STAT and nobody else loses to Wade-LeBron-Bosh more often than it wins. If Gallo lives up to potential, and AR lives up to potential, AND we have $11 million off the books...we just became an 8 or 9 seed that lost no talent and gained a ton of cap room. Again, I am for getting Carmello but I want to keep SOME of the GOOD young talent we have...

  11. #101
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    Great News. We can put all this to bed now. DENVER will send Carmelo anywhere right now but NY. Cool. I'll keep my prospects and get to work.

    Now ball is in Melo's court. He can just play out the year, trying to win wherever he is. SImply refuse to sign an extension anywhere, keeping his "options" open and just sign with the Knicks next July 1st.

    Done deal.

    NY Knicks would be a legitimate contender next season if you subtract Curry from this roster and insert Melo.

    Felton
    Chandler
    Melo
    Amar'e
    Randolph

    Gallo, Mozgov, Douglas, SG (Mason, Azu, Walker), Fields


    Let's do it!

    I'm sure I-Thomas let Melo's people know.... in not so many words.... screw the potential cap uncertainty situation.... Dolan will get you that money one way or another. This is probably what DEN thinks when it claims TAMPERING.

    Knicks are this close, and if Donnie pulls this off.... Gets Melo.... Then there should be a freaking statue of the old dude outside MSG.

    Now, this means we must avoid temptation makind a deadline deal. So we retain Curry until season's end.

    ALL UP TO CARMELO now. He needs to have his agent tell DEN's GM and Owner.... Melo will play his heart out and try to win DEN a title this season. He'll be a model citizen and teammate. But he will exercise his right next summer to become a free agent. He's given DEN 8 seasons (if he plays this year in DEN). He has no regrets. He'll be open to hear what DEN has to say, but he also is itching to get back to the East coast.

    You can either trade him to NY, the only team he'll sign an extension with. Or trade him elsehwere (if that team will gamble and accept terms of deal - no extension), or keep Melo and risk losing him for nothing. Those are the options on the table.

  12. #102
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    According to the article written then, Steph was considered the 2nd best PG in the league at the time. And we were a team capable of competing when Steph got to us. And we gave up two draft picks for him.
    According to an article!? Okay...case closed...

    Anyway, Steph may have been considered the 2nd best but we all know that is not true when it comes to leading a team. Stats were great but leadership was sorely lacking. Further we had no other players unlike today when we have a true superstar in Amare.

    If you find the Stephon Marbury trade a success because of one horrible playoff series then I feel bad for you.
    Slow it down. I never said I liked that trade in fact it was a horrible trade. You are the only one conflating that trade with the proposed Melo trade and conflating that weak roster to one that will retain a core of Amare, Felton and Melo.

    Again, that's what Dr. Jack Ramsey said, almost to a T, about Stephon being paired with Houston.
    Houston was never as good as Amare and further at that point in his career was all but washed up.

    The point is - everyone against trading prospects says we are just trading the "unknown". They said the same thing when we traded for Steph. Oh we will be good when those draft picks come up because we are going to be an amazing team".
    Again, you are working back from your own flawed comparison and using it as justification for the greater argument. You should know better than that as I have seen you call posters out on many of occasions for similar transgressions.

    I am actually on the fence with this whole Melo trade but won't be mad either way. I recognize that Melo is an elite talent and in his prime. He and Amare are both young and can be very good for years and years. That is almost a guarantee barring a serious injury. Gallo or AR reaching their potential is not nor is that potential being anything close to what Melo has already become. If Melo was 30 I would say hell no but he is still young and at this point better than Gallo, AR and TD combined.

    They said the same thing when we traded for Curry. "Oh we will be good when those draft picks come up because we are going to be an amazing team".
    Another flawed comparison. Curry has never been anything close to what Melo is...please stop. Melo is a bonafied elite player not some underacheiver with promise. If anything Curry is closer to the perceived potential you are citing in Gallo and more so in AR. Simply put, Melo is a proven player...AR, Gallo and Curry back then aren't.

    Sorry, but a team of Felton-Carmello-STAT and nobody else loses to Wade-LeBron-Bosh more often than it wins.
    Maybe we lose this year but we acquire a young star studded core that will attract veterans looking to take down the Heat. If your measuring stick is stay put and do nothing unless you can put together a team capable of beating Miami in one shot then you are being unrealistic. Melo moves us in that direction and gets one step closer to being a true elite team. AT that point all we need to do is get role players. Role players are a dime a dozen...Melo caliber players aren't.

    If Gallo lives up to potential, and AR lives up to potential, AND we have $11 million off the books...we just became an 8 or 9 seed that lost no talent and gained a ton of cap room. Again, I am for getting Carmello but I want to keep SOME of the GOOD young talent we have...
    That is a big IF. I would love to keep any and all of our young guns but if we can nab Melo I have decided it is best for our future. Gambling on Gallo's back and AR's IQ is much more risky then getting Melo and filling our team up with role players over the course of the next few years. IMHO.

  13. #103
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    Well detailed, Trill.

    Arguments against what 'Knucks' is laying out (just use him as a figurehead), are basically non-existent, and that they are now built upon comparisons to Marbury...and Curry now.

    I guess we can just substitute Melo with Michael Jordan then. And that will totally prove things.

    The only rebuttals have been circular reasoning and logical fallacies that keep getting repeated, and aren't even on the same plane as the logic and argumentation on the other side, let alone do they propose a an equal alternative.

    I.e. Let's Wait For Carmelo Next Year.

    Wait. Like getting him for nothing but some Dolan gold would be best....Obviously. But this isn't checkers, and we're operating on the assumption that Melo will be traded, and if we don't man up, it won't be to us. Of course, if we simply wait, we wait. This isn't an argument and it isn't germane because nobody disagrees.

    I.e. But We Wont Be Immediate Contenders Right Away No Matter

    But it isn't a question of if we will contend right away (though it's already admitted we'd be better with Melo right away and would have a better chance). It isn't a question of whether we COULD eventually contend in either scenario; it's a real possibility in both cases, and why myself, Knucks, Trill, etc, have repeatedly said they won't cry if no Melo.

    It's a question of having the BEST chance to contend. "Best" means two things:

    Liklihood, aka your success rate, having the lowest risk, highest basement, most clearclut ability.

    Getting there in the shortest period of time.

    All this said, honestly say you feel safer and have greater clarity in building up that contender quickly with Gallo and AR.

    Another clever article mashup that would be pertinent, too, would actually be if we kept the variables the same (...), but just removed the fact that the players were actually Knicks, and put up their career cannons, and just didn't label their names and the team they play for.

    That would be interesting. Consider everything. How highly try are rated around the leauge, their sample size of success, injury history, everything.

    And then compare it to a superstar in his prime who wants NY, and our current (super)star likes and really wants.

    Azzy, Turiaf, Chandler off books in a year, added to current cap situation when it goes Melo - Curry. We'll have more pick tradability again.

    Bigtime centers and versatility 6th men are immediately available. Horford, Gasol, Prince, et al.

    Sign Melo and we are powerful and confident as a franchise, past our past, and the blueprint for getting better and better couldn't be any more defined and likely.

    Don't, and it's another year with a lot of hoping and praying, uncertainty, a very very low basement level that we can hit, and us being treated still like 2nd class NBA citizens.

    Not the worst reality since we'd be fun, have exciting prospects, and a lot better than years past, which is a huge releif. But that's not the question, and thinking on those terms will just cloud your judgement.

  14. #104
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Well detailed, Trill.

    Arguments against what 'Knucks' is laying out (just use him as a figurehead), are basically non-existent, and that they are now built upon comparisons to Marbury...and Curry now.

    I guess we can just substitute Melo with Michael Jordan then. And that will totally prove things.

    The only rebuttals have been circular reasoning and logical fallacies that keep getting repeated, and aren't even on the same plane as the logic and argumentation on the other side, let alone do they propose a an equal alternative.

    I.e. Let's Wait For Carmelo Next Year.

    Wait. Like getting him for nothing but some Dolan gold would be best....Obviously. But this isn't checkers, and we're operating on the assumption that Melo will be traded, and if we don't man up, it won't be to us. Of course, if we simply wait, we wait. This isn't an argument and it isn't germane because nobody disagrees.

    I.e. But We Wont Be Immediate Contenders Right Away No Matter

    But it isn't a question of if we will contend right away (though it's already admitted we'd be better with Melo right away and would have a better chance). It isn't a question of whether we COULD eventually contend in either scenario; it's a real possibility in both cases, and why myself, Knucks, Trill, etc, have repeatedly said they won't cry if no Melo.

    It's a question of having the BEST chance to contend. "Best" means two things:

    Liklihood, aka your success rate, having the lowest risk, highest basement, most clearclut ability.

    Getting there in the shortest period of time.

    All this said, honestly say you feel safer and have greater clarity in building up that contender quickly with Gallo and AR.

    Another clever article mashup that would be pertinent, too, would actually be if we kept the variables the same (...), but just removed the fact that the players were actually Knicks, and put up their career cannons, and just didn't label their names and the team they play for.

    That would be interesting. Consider everything. How highly try are rated around the leauge, their sample size of success, injury history, everything.

    And then compare it to a superstar in his prime who wants NY, and our current (super)star likes and really wants.

    Azzy, Turiaf, Chandler off books in a year, added to current cap situation when it goes Melo - Curry. We'll have more pick tradability again.

    Bigtime centers and versatility 6th men are immediately available. Horford, Gasol, Prince, et al.

    Sign Melo and we are powerful and confident as a franchise, past our past, and the blueprint for getting better and better couldn't be any more defined and likely.

    Don't, and it's another year with a lot of hoping and praying, uncertainty, a very very low basement level that we can hit, and us being treated still like 2nd class NBA citizens.

    Not the worst reality since we'd be fun, have exciting prospects, and a lot better than years past, which is a huge releif. But that's not the question, and thinking on those terms will just cloud your judgement.
    Good points. The only way that trade is bad for the Knicks is if either Gallo, AR or both become as good or better than Melo. Considering Melo is a future hall of famer and a top 10 player I really find that gamble strange. The Knicks will have ZERO problems assembling the right role players around a star studded core of Melo and AMre along with Felton, Azzy, Moz and Chandler.

  15. #105
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    According to an article!? Okay...case closed...

    Anyway, Steph may have been considered the 2nd best but we all know that is not true when it comes to leading a team. Stats were great but leadership was sorely lacking. Further we had no other players unlike today when we have a true superstar in Amare.
    And what does it say about a guys leadership when he wants/begs/pleads to get off of his own team, a team he was drafted to be the leader of?

    Originally Posted by TRILLION
    Slow it down. I never said I liked that trade in fact it was a horrible trade. You are the only one conflating that trade with the proposed Melo trade and conflating that weak roster to one that will retain a core of Amare, Felton and Melo.
    To me, Felton is as unproven as any of the other guys. He looked good in some games but it's not like this guy is a superstar. And he certainly ain't Wade or LeBron, and he ain't Allen when the Celtics got him.

    Originally Posted by TRILLION
    Again, you are working back from your own flawed comparison and using it as justification for the greater argument. You should know better than that as I have seen you call posters out on many of occasions for similar transgressions.

    I am actually on the fence with this whole Melo trade but won't be mad either way. I recognize that Melo is an elite talent and in his prime. He and Amare are both young and can be very good for years and years. That is almost a guarantee barring a serious injury. Gallo or AR reaching their potential is not nor is that potential being anything close to what Melo has already become. If Melo was 30 I would say hell no but he is still young and at this point better than Gallo, AR and TD combined.

    Another flawed comparison. Curry has never been anything close to what Melo is...please stop. Melo is a bonafied elite player not some underacheiver with promise. If anything Curry is closer to the perceived potential you are citing in Gallo and more so in AR. Simply put, Melo is a proven player...AR, Gallo and Curry back then aren't.
    Again, you misunderstand what I am trying to say. I am not saying that Curry or Steph are as good as Melo. It's the logic that is flawed. Tell me when it stops with the trading draft picks and trading young talent. How many teams have been successful gutting their teams for "bonafide" stars? The Celtics drafted Rajon Rondo. The Lakers drafted Andrew Bynum. The Spurs built their entire team through good drafting and player development. So did the Thunder. Yes, a key trade or two was needed, but the fact is we are ultimately still rebuilding, whether you like it or not. We need to keep young talent on the roster, let them develop together, lets see what we have. We could get jumpy, and gut our entire team like the Nets were willing to do. Or we can bide our time and actually watch our players play even ONE GAME together so we can see what we have.

    The fact is, people want to say we have this, we don't have that, potential is nada. That, to me, is beyond idiotic. We have been down the path of trading prospect for proven. Just because Carmello is "more proven" does not make trading MORE prospects than we ever traded before LESS idiotic.


    Originally Posted by TRILLION
    That is a big IF. I would love to keep any and all of our young guns but if we can nab Melo I have decided it is best for our future. Gambling on Gallo's back and AR's IQ is much more risky then getting Melo and filling our team up with role players over the course of the next few years. IMHO.
    Yes, it is an IF. But Melo is also an IF...just because he had success one place does not mean he has success here. Many ELITE players have come to NY and have failed in every single sport.

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