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Thread: Atheists and Agnostics Know More About Religion

  1. #16
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I am happy that you have found something that makes you feel happy. I don't want to take that away from you.

    I have read the sermon on the mount. I know it quite well. I am not bitter. But to suggest my atheism is only from an anger and bitterness towards christianity and nothing to do with being a scientist and studying science insults me. That may be how you rationalize it for yourself but does not mean it applies to everyone else.

    And I do get angry when people like K4lyfe knock on people's doors and tell them they're wrong. I do get angry when cults control a person. I do get angry when a religion tells a child they are evil from birth and prohibits them from learning scientific facts and applying critical thinking.

    And I get especially angry when religion trys to force itself in our government and classrooms.

    Not once, in your post, do you talk about reality, only spirituality. Reality does exist. From the beginning, I have always preached to research the facts and educate yourself. Religion, in many ways, stands in the way of education. I do not want to force the removal of religion the way Chairman Mao Zedong did. But to have it go away from education and an understanding of the facts. Notice how the most educated societies are the least religious? They are also always ranked the happiest societies (excluding China ofcourse, for said reasons). Not because religion is gone but because through knowledge of facts = educated society = less poverty = less crime = happiness = less need for invisible friends to give hope.

    It seems, to me, to be a dangerous path for civilizaton to follow, when the population is told to accept what they're told without researching the facts.
    K4L was also a child, once. Does he become undeserving of the compassion you feel for an indoctrinated child, as soon as he turns age 18?

    Belief in science is great. However, do you see that connecting your love of science to atheism makes it dependent upon theism? After all, atheism means, roughly, belief in no religion. So... it requires religion, in order to exist.

    The implication is that, as long as you see yourself as an atheist (devoid of religion), you are ironically inescapably tangled with the thing you despise.

    I say you find what you enjoy and pursue it on its own merits, not in reaction to your feelings about religion.

    And K4L, God bless him, simply does not heed Jesus' call for not judging others. This also means not positively judging anyone (ourselves) as saved or chosen, because, even by Christian standards, Jesus/God makes clear he is the judge, not mankind. Saying they are chosen arrogantly attempts to usurp God's authority. Saying others are not is the same thing. Man's judgment is weak and self-interested, when compared to the supreme.

    PEACE

  2. #17
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    K4L was also a child, once. Does he become undeserving of the compassion you feel for an indoctrinated child, as soon as he turns age 18?
    A person raised in an environment where education is purposely withheld deserves compassion whether or not they are a child or an adult. But at some point, an adult must be held to a different level of accountability than a child.


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Belief in science is great. However, do you see that connecting your love of science to atheism makes it dependent upon theism? After all, atheism means, roughly, belief in no religion. So... it requires religion, in order to exist.

    The implication is that, as long as you see yourself as an atheist (devoid of religion), you are ironically inescapably tangled with the thing you despise.

    Atheism is not believing in god. Agnostic is not believing in religion. I don't believe in unicorns. That does not mean unicorns exist. The fable of unicorns exists, but not the unicorns themselves.

    Now, if there were a group of people trying to force amongst the population the rules and regulations associated with believing in the fable of unicorns, as well as knocking on people's doors and telling them they are wrong and will be murdered by unicorns for not worshipping the unicorns, or blowing themselves up and murdering innocent people in the name of unicorns, and trying to block the facts and evidence from their children and common public knowledge that prove the fable of unicorns false, then I would hope you would at least have some emotion about it and not stand idly by.

    And, by the way, there is such a thing as cause and effect. That is, it is possible for someone to research a topic and gain knowledge of that topic and form an opinion based on that knowledge. And upon gaining that knowledge of the facts, it is possible for that person to want other people to spend the same amount of time and energy researching the facts themselves and not just accept what they are told when what they are told is in contradiction of the facts. And consequentially there could undertsandably be some basic human emotions of frustration associated with the willful rejection of the facts simply because those people do not want to believe the facts.


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    I say you find what you enjoy and pursue it on its own merits, not in reaction to your feelings about religion.
    I do pursue my enjoyments on their own merits. And if you are implying that I pursue science based on my feelings about religion and not my joy for science or passion for the truth then once again, I find your suggestion very insulting.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Oct 07, 2010 at 12:32.

  3. #18
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    The questioning of our opinions, which are often distorted, subjective and not tangible/physical, or measurable, is a blessing. A thought is much more dangerous than a knife or gun. It is a shame if anyone questions us more than we do ourselves, if we, in essence, use that inner knife on ourselves.

    You are right about your definition of atheism, but it is inconsequential to the example I gave. If your world view is defined by a reaction to what you dislike: belief in God(s), then you are anchored, aggressively, to the very object of your disapproval.

    Science is a reaction to an absence of understanding. And so, it is tied to that. There is, however, no anger, no inward violence, involved in reaction to ignorance with science. Reacting to religion with clever examples, science, and a range of other ideas, is destructive and creates delusion, because it involves endless conflict, with ideas, people, etc., whereas science, in and of itself, does not involve such dynamic conflict with others; and although others may take issue with science, we need not engage them in a proverbia "battle" of ideas.

    Moreover, it is important to inwardly, not just speak or act as such, understand that others have the right to believe in even the most brutal things. All you can do, if you believe yourself so qualified, is to offer your counsel. You only have the right to exercise your will, not that of others. Many a man has erred in his actions toward others, because he believed himself to know better.

    My note is one written out of compassion. If you are insulted, it is because of your own understandings, not because of what is intended or the words themselves, which are, in and of themselves, just words.

    As for K4L, he follows because he believes. And the fact that he still suffers is excused as temporary, when all of the sages have said that suffering ends in the now, if we are willing to destroy our selves (egoes).

    God (Science, in your case, Jehovah in K4L, The All in mine) Bless
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Oct 07, 2010 at 13:28. Reason: Details Added

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