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    Default Atheists and Agnostics Know More About Religion

    Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious

    by JJ Sutherland

    The Pew Forum on Religious Religion and Public Life released a survey on religious knowledge today. Atheists and Agnostics scored higher on it than anyone else, closely followed by Jews and Mormons, all Christians, Protestants and Catholics, were far behind.

    That's overall, but when you get into specific religions it does show a startling lack of basic knowledge by practitioners. From the report:


    More than four-in-ten Catholics in the United States (45%) do not know that their church teaches that the bread and wine used in Communion do not merely symbolize but actually become the body and blood of Christ. About half of Protestants (53%) cannot correctly identify Martin Luther as the person whose writings and actions inspired the Protestant Reformation, which made their religion a separate branch of Christianity. Roughly four-in-ten Jews (43%) do not recognize that Maimonides, one of the most venerated rabbis in history, was Jewish.

    The study also showed that Americans have a fairly poor understanding of religions other than their own. Only about half of the people surveyed know that Martin Luther inspired the Reformation, the Dalai Lama is Buddhist, and Joseph Smith was a Mormon.

    Why are Atheists and Agnostics better informed? The Los Angeles Times quotes one of the researchers who has a theory:


    American atheists and agnostics tend to be people who grew up in a religious tradition and consciously gave it up, often after a great deal of reflection and study, said Alan Cooperman, associate director for research at the Pew Forum.

    "These are people who thought a lot about religion," he said. "They're not indifferent. They care about it."


    Also interesting is that Black Protestants and Latino Catholics scored at the bottom of the survey.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Makes sense, to me.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Makes sense, to me.
    Noticeably absent is Gods people. We're taught these things.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Noticeably absent is Gods people. We're taught these things.
    Haha!! That's what they all say.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Haha!! That's what they all say.
    Most people readily know JW are very well taught, and know biblical history. Even if they arent the info is always avilable on our cd rom. We can look up anything concerning religion. This is how we are able to answer questions door to door. Jesus, the smartest and greatest man to ever live was prepared.. so are his people.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Most people readily know JW are very well taught, and know biblical history. Even if they arent the info is always avilable on our cd rom. We can look up anything concerning religion. This is how we are able to answer questions door to door. Jesus, the smartest and greatest man to ever live was prepared.. so are his people.
    Edit "JW" with "Muslims", "biblical" with "Koran" and "Jesus" with "Mohammed" and you sound like a radical muslim.

    Edit those with any other religion's names and you sound like that religion's version of a radical.

    Like I said, that's what they all say. No difference. You're a radical just like the rest. Claiming to be god's people, just like the rest. You're the only true believers, just like the rest. You're the only true religion, just like the rest. You're the only ones to be saved, just like the rest. Every other religion is a false religion, just like the rest.

    All with false claims, zero evidence and misinterpretations, just like the rest.


    Please enlighten me with your extensive knowledge of the other religions to be able to make above claims. I, as the article has accurately suggested, take religion very seriously, was brought up in a religious family and have therefore studied many religions, as well as science, and have made an informed decision. While you may know quite a bit about the bible, you know very little of everything else. Hence, your beliefs.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Edit "JW" with "Muslims", "biblical" with "Koran" and "Jesus" with "Mohammed" and you sound like a radical muslim.

    Edit those with any other religion's names and you sound like that religion's version of a radical.

    Like I said, that's what they all say. No difference. You're a radical just like the rest. Claiming to be god's people, just like the rest. You're the only true believers, just like the rest. You're the only true religion, just like the rest. You're the only ones to be saved, just like the rest. Every other religion is a false religion, just like the rest.

    All with false claims, zero evidence and misinterpretations, just like the rest.


    Please enlighten me with your extensive knowledge of the other religions to be able to make above claims. I, as the article has accurately suggested, take religion very seriously, was brought up in a religious family and have therefore studied many religions, as well as science, and have made an informed decision. While you may know quite a bit about the bible, you know very little of everything else. Hence, your beliefs.
    JW are radical because we believe we're Gods people? So would you be a radical based on your belief? Would you say, be monkey man radical? Because you're willing to die for the belief you are a monkey. Thats pretty radical. And because you believe this, all religious people are crazy. Thats pretty radical. You, the monkey man, sound just as foolishly radical as the ones you love to condemn as uninformed, and even less educated. That's radical.


    And if u paid attn, you would see the many postings in this section called "mans search for God" it marks the true begining of humanity's spiritual search from myth to organized religion. All major faiths, origin down to present day.

    Again, you prove over and over how clueless you really are about the wonderful work JW do. In order to preach effectively, one needs to be informed of all forms of faith. You cannot preach to a Budhist about Jehovah with much effectiveness, if you do not take into account their lack of belief in God. Or in an eastern Indian community without knowing about the different forms of Hinduism. You will never reach people without knowing about their beliefs. JWs are made of every race on earth. In order to do that, you had to have a lot of conversions. To me, taking time out of your day, to get up and knock on doors in good or bad weather, to speak with people about their faith and concerns is taking people and their religion seriously. Get over yourself if you think you're the only one guy.

    And abt all this evidence we lack, you missed it again. Jehovah hias brought peace to the earth. Just take a look at his people, as compared to the world outside of it. Jesus is called the prince of peace. Jehovah must be the King. It should be no small wonder that those who tke on their names abide in it. And they are the only ones on earth who can truly say so. And only the bible foretells this.

    Like it or not, that is proof of thier existance.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    JW are radical because we believe we're Gods people? So would you be a radical based on your belief? Would you say, be monkey man radical? Because you're willing to die for the belief you are a monkey. Thats pretty radical. And because you believe this, all religious people are crazy. Thats pretty radical. You, the monkey man, sound just as foolishly radical as the ones you love to condemn as uninformed, and even less educated. That's radical.


    And if u paid attn, you would see the many postings in this section called "mans search for God" it marks the true begining of humanity's spiritual search from myth to organized religion. All major faiths, origin down to present day.

    Again, you prove over and over how clueless you really are about the wonderful work JW do. In order to preach effectively, one needs to be informed of all forms of faith. You cannot preach to a Budhist about Jehovah with much effectiveness, if you do not take into account their lack of belief in God. Or in an eastern Indian community without knowing about the different forms of Hinduism. You will never reach people without knowing about their beliefs. JWs are made of every race on earth. In order to do that, you had to have a lot of conversions. To me, taking time out of your day, to get up and knock on doors in good or bad weather, to speak with people about their faith and concerns is taking people and their religion seriously. Get over yourself if you think you're the only one guy.

    And abt all this evidence we lack, you missed it again. Jehovah hias brought peace to the earth. Just take a look at his people, as compared to the world outside of it. Jesus is called the prince of peace. Jehovah must be the King. It should be no small wonder that those who tke on their names abide in it. And they are the only ones on earth who can truly say so. And only the bible foretells this.

    Like it or not, that is proof of thier existance.
    I am not a radical BECAUSE of evidence and knowledge. It would be easy to prove evolution false. For example, just find a mammal fossil that is dated 500 million years ago. Find a rabbit fossil in the time of the dinosaurs. Bam. Done. Evolution is false. I can accept that. But there has been nothing. Every fossil, every genetic discovery, every new finding, always supports and strengthens evolution. Just find one thing...PLEASE!!

    You do realize that all of today's vaccinations are based on evolutionary theory, right? If evolution were false, our current medical and biological understanding would be completely unsuccessful and fall apart.

    And how come there are no rabbit fossils, for example, 150 mil years ago? If you follow a rabbit's line, follow his parents, to his grandparents, to his great grandparents, etc, etc, all the way back 150 mil years, if evolution were false, we would see rabbit fossils all over the place. But there are none. Also explain how there are so many extinct fossilized animals and so few current animals that show up in fossil record. Please explain. Just one of these would prove evolution false. It's so simple. Yet nothing.

    Meanwhile, every fossil, every genetic discovery, every new finding always contradicts your religion. Always. Yet you ignore the evidence and accuse scientists of creating a massive conspiracy without bothering to understand or research the facts. And that is more evidence for you being a radical.

    Unwilling to accept facts and evidence, ignoring facts and evidence and proclaiming every one else wrong and only you right and only you will be saved. = Radical.

    If there was one discovery to prove evolution false, scientists would drop it. That is how science works. Show me another theory backed up by evidence and I'll objectively review it. This is how science works.

    You do not know a damn thing about buddhism, islam, hinduism, etc. Evidenced by your responses to OGKnickfan's newly found inner peace through buddhism in previous threads.

    If you now so much, prove those religions false. You always claim that they are false religions, and you are the only one who is right and will be saved. Prove them false. Not through your religion, like you did in those "man's search for God" posts. All of those were copied and pasted (like you always do) from a JW website. Don't pretend that it was from your knowledge and understanding of those so-called false religions. Sheesh. Give me a break. You have no desire to research or understand anything. Which makes you seem even more insulting when you knock on people's doors and tell them you're right and they're wrong. What a freaking joke.

    I'll ask again. Prove them false with evidence and understanding of the religion. Not by copying and pasting from a JW website. I'll wait.

    Where has Jehovah brought peace on earth? I don't see it. Are you saying every single JW never dies from a disease or dies in natural disasters? I'm not sure of the numbers, but didn't something like 58 JWs die in the Haiti earthquake? If JWs are so special, and god wanted everybody to know it, why wouldn't he do something miraculous and save every JW in Haiti. That would be something to consider as evidence if only JWs survived. But no, same as everybody else.

    Or are you saying only JW's experience inner peace and noone else does? And that every single JW is experiencing inner peace all the time? Well that is obviously wrong and extraordinarily arrogant and insulting to suggest it. JWs are also not the only people to give up violence, if that is what you're suggesting.

    Guess what. JW's experience the same struggle, depression, violence, disease, and death in the same percentage as every other person in the world. They are no different.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Oct 02, 2010 at 14:22.

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    The posted article sets the bar pretty low, in regard to what it seems to consider spiritual wisdom. Knowing a few facts about a religion or denomination's history and dogma does not equal spiritual wisdom.

    Being ignorant and being a great spiritual being are not mutually exclusive. In fact, being ignorant is required of such a being.

    It is irrelevant to the attainment of spiritual wisdom for Christians to know that Luther initiated the reformation. It is irrelevant to spiritual wisdom for Christians to know the significance of the Eucharist. This is the same for other groups.

    The Bible, in fact, admonishes people for taking pride in the materialistic, which includes the quasi-carnal/materialistic nature of knowledge, as knowledge is often used to restrict one to the carnal and materialistic and not to liberate one from it, as ironic as this may seem.

    In the book that, in my opinion, shows the greatest, most liberated (Jesus-graced) understanding of the Gospels of Jesus: The Imitation of Christ, the medieval Christian mystic, Thomas a Kempis, wrote the following about knowledge-restriction and religious supremacy:

    "If you wish to learn and appreciate something worth while, then love to be unknown and considered as nothing. Truly to know and despise self is the best and most perfect counsel. To think of oneself as nothing, and always to think well and highly of others is the best and most perfect wisdom.

    Wherefore, if you see another sin openly or commit a serious crime, do not consider yourself better, for you do not know how long you can remain in good estate. All men are frail, but you must admit that none is more frail than yourself." (1418)

    "If there is good in you, see more good in others, so that you may remain humble. It does no harm to esteem yourself less than anyone else, but it is very harmful to think yourself better than even one. The humble live in continuous peace, while in the hearts of the proud are envy and frequent anger." (1418)

    "Every perfection in this life has some imperfection mixed with it and no learning of ours is without some darkness. Humble knowledge of self is a surer path to God than the ardent pursuit of learning. Not that learning is to be considered evil, or knowledge, which is good in itself and so ordained by God; but a clean conscience and virtuous life ought always to be preferred. Many often err and accomplish little or nothing because they try to become learned rather than to live well." (1418)


    The grace of the divine is always in communion with all beings. What is required is one open one's eyes and ears.

    May you experience the wordless, not-knowledge-bound, egoless grace of the divine!

    PEACE

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    Most religious people don't study other views, agreed, doesn't mean they should be cast out of intellectual conversation however....Clement was the first to bring that genius to the table being a master in Pagan philosophy from the Christian perspective...people don't study church history so they don't think it is important to know every side

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    First off, ur request for me, a religious man, to prove another false without using my religious knowledge is nonsensical. It is what I believe to be true, which is basis for my stance.

    And also, please knock it off with this lame copy, paste stuff. It's simply easier to relay on a message board.

    Third, its also really wack that you think just because I post the information I preach abt here, it means I lack that knowledge myself. As if there are points given out for inventing the wheel. Let me ask you, mr pompous, before u.became an athiest, you had to learn yhat p.o.v from someone else, correct? Or did you somehow beat ur hero, Carl Hagan to the punch? Your argument there is weak and quite petty. You got all of your evolutionary viewpoints FROM SOMEONE ELSE. Just because you dont copy/paste from websites does nt mean you can pass ur belief as self taught knowledge. Get over u.

    There is no way to disprove false religion, without glorifying the true religion. Therefore, ur request will be denied. Budhists dont beleive in God. But he exists. There are ways to help one see this, if in fact they WANT the truth. But that truth lies in the bible.

    Also, the information provided in mans search is accurate. Any Jw can look into and become knowledgable. So again, ur wrong. We know more than enough to speak on a specific religion. Weak argument again.

    when you say "Jehovah has not brought peace to the earth" you are only half right. No, the whole earth is not at peace. But those who serve him are. He has people made up of all nationalities on earth, that if not for his arrangement, would more than likely hate eachother. But because of him, they show love to eachother and non believers. If he can accomplish this, in satans world, I am certain he can accomplish much more when he rids the earth of wickedness. They are the only group on earth that Isa.2 2-4 apply to. This is a strong indication to me that God is behind the bible, which would automatically disqualify any other holy text or faith imo. Because they do not have such prophetic word.
    Last edited by Knicks4lyfe; Oct 04, 2010 at 23:31.

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    To LJ:


    For the record, as I saw it mentioned, I am not a Buddhist, though I practiced Buddhism in my early twenties. I also read the Bhagavad Gita and practiced some Vedanta Hindu spirituality: yoga meditation and exercises, etc., based on the teachings of Ramana Maharashi.

    I have read many spiritual texts and delved into different teachings, for over eleven years. Atheism was one of them. However, my pursuit of these was largely in reaction to my former hatred of Christianity: the religion in which I was raised. So, I can relate to you.

    For years, I considered the possibility that I was acting partly in reaction to my hatred, but I could not see that I was. In time, I learned I actually was; and I only realized this after many years, because it was so subtle.

    Last year, after realizing that my accumulation of knowledge was not IT (communion with the Divine), and that my entire conduct was not reflective of what I was talking about and was contrived, I had a spiritual crisis. It was a blessing and exactly what I needed.

    My previous studies of Buddhism were influential and played a part in my awareness of my own BS, but it was a very personal, yet impersonal, experience of liberation, wherein religious affiliation did not play a part.

    It was like ice melting, in one of those nature documentaries, under which greenery is revealed, except, for me, the green was under ice for much more than one winter. Bitterness toward Christianity produced, and maintained, this ice. Love and personal impersonality destroyed all barriers.

    Why was it maintained? Partly because I did not understand Jesus (and other figures I attacked) and, in spite of my exhortations of freedom, wanted to control others. Again, this was more implicit, than it was explicit, and I did not see it, at the time. I ask you both to look within, so as to see if this is your case. There is never cause for anger, only for compassion and grace.

    I am not an atheist, but I love the atheist and sympathize with his/her brave struggle for freedom. I call him/her, however, to realize that bitterness keeps you endlessly tied to the very thing that you seek to escape. Look at Bill Maher: the man claims to be an atheist, yet he spends more time talking about Christianity than most Christians do.

    Bitterness prevents you from exploring the waters that extend beyond Christianity.

    I am not a Christian, but I love Jesus. I don't see the need for anyone to be a Christian, or to be part of any particular denomination: Catholicism, Baptist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, in order to love Jesus. Read Jesus' sermon on the mount: it speaks to any kindhearted person and against "Christian" hate and prejudice: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].


    To K4L

    In the gospels, Jesus has one of the greatest messages of all time for us: selflessness, peace in poverty, love, in spite of hate, and endless grace toward all.

    The religions have perverted or neglected his message, because they do not understand it, just as even his disciples had to be admonished for not, at times, understanding him.

    When we bash others for their sexual orientation, religious beliefs, etc., and exalt ourselves as being chosen people, ask for blessings while in the world, and so on, we completely violate Jesus' teachings.

    Jesus asked people to walk in his footsteps. This entails not worshiping money, as Jesus was essentially monetarily impoverished, and depending on God's grace, this means not judging others, as you are a mere mortal, who should not trust his own judgment. This also entails turning the other cheek and loving the enemy that you create in your mind.

    This is easy to see here: you and LJ see each other, at some level, as enemies, but are you? You are only enemies in relation to one another, not in actuality. Another person may hear what you/LJ say and not be moved to feel anything.

    But, you both still believe, as most of us do, in the ego/self. And belief in the promises of the ego/self comes with much pain and strife, which is evident here.

    How ironic that we say we believe in the divine but then only serve it in relation to ourselves, the thoughts and beliefs of our little group, our little lives, our little desires, etc. How ironic that Jesus' apostles were admonished for their faults, yet you cannot admonish yourself.

    Your indignation is not for Jesus' cause but for your own, and I say that with love. Your understanding of Jesus' cause comes from men and your own interpretation of a book, but the most objective interpretation, which is the ultimate, supreme subjectivity, belongs to no man. It belongs to the divine perspective and lies buried deeply within all beings.

    Paul
    The problem with the article is that it focuses on spiritual legalism (codes of conduct, superficial knowledge, etc.). It is not concerned with understanding the spiritual implications involved with daily living. And, the most learned scholars cannot tell you about these. This is a very personal thing that one needs to learn to practice in every moment of life. But, as things are, we only see God in a building. We only see Satan and temptation in the movies. God is everywhere, but it is not enough to say it and memorize it. We must experience it.

    PEACE

    From the Gospel of Buddha (1894), by Paul Carus:

    Self begets selfishness.
    There is no wrong but what is done by the assertion of self. [8]
    Self is the beginning of all hatred,
    of iniquity and slander, of impudence and indecency,
    of theft and robbery, of oppression and bloodshed.



    Self is Mara, the tempter, the evildoer, the creator of mischief. [9]
    Self entices with pleasures. Self promises a fairy's paradise.
    Self is the veil of Maya, the enchanter.



    But the pleasures of self are unreal,
    its paradisian labyrinth is the road to misery,
    and its fading beauty kindles the flames of desires
    that never can be satisfied. [10]
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Oct 05, 2010 at 09:39.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    First off, ur request for me, a religious man, to prove another false without using my religious knowledge is nonsensical. It is what I believe to be true, which is basis for my stance.

    And also, please knock it off with this lame copy, paste stuff. It's simply easier to relay on a message board.

    Third, its also really wack that you think just because I post the information I preach abt here, it means I lack that knowledge myself. As if there are points given out for inventing the wheel. Let me ask you, mr pompous, before u.became an athiest, you had to learn yhat p.o.v from someone else, correct? Or did you somehow beat ur hero, Carl Hagan to the punch? Your argument there is weak and quite petty. You got all of your evolutionary viewpoints FROM SOMEONE ELSE. Just because you dont copy/paste from websites does nt mean you can pass ur belief as self taught knowledge. Get over u.

    There is no way to disprove false religion, without glorifying the true religion. Therefore, ur request will be denied. Budhists dont beleive in God. But he exists. There are ways to help one see this, if in fact they WANT the truth. But that truth lies in the bible.
    This is incorrect. There are ways to prove a religion false. Through knowledge of that religion and knowledge of the facts. You choose to not research either.

    You've decided in your mind that you are right and that's that. You believe your religion is true and there is no need to understand anything else. Just the information that an anti-non-JW website and anti-scientific website tells you.

    Have you read the Koran? No.

    Understanding a religion by only looking at information provided by a group trying to disprove that religion false, is not a good way to understand it and prove it false. Don't you see that?


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    when you say "Jehovah has not brought peace to the earth" you are only half right. No, the whole earth is not at peace. But those who serve him are. He has people made up of all nationalities on earth, that if not for his arrangement, would more than likely hate eachother. But because of him, they show love to eachother and non believers. If he can accomplish this, in satans world, I am certain he can accomplish much more when he rids the earth of wickedness. They are the only group on earth that Isa.2 2-4 apply to. This is a strong indication to me that God is behind the bible, which would automatically disqualify any other holy text or faith imo. Because they do not have such prophetic word.
    Man, your interpretation of Isaiah 2 is out of wack. Like always, you either misinterpret the bible or manipulate the meaning to make it sound still true. I still find it funny that you claim to be the most knowledgeable of the bible yet misinterpret it in alomst every way. Again, just proves the survey correct.

    2 In the last days
    the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
    as chief among the mountains;
    it will be raised above the hills,
    and all nations will stream to it.

    3 Many peoples will come and say,
    "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    to the house of the God of Jacob.
    He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths."
    The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    4 He will judge between the nations
    and will settle disputes for many peoples.
    They will beat their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
    Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.



    You actually tell yourself that this means JWs are peaceful to other JWs and exist in multiple nations across the world? Wow. SMH.

    So, did you understand that passage all by yourself, or did the JW organization tell you?

    Do you see the difference? I read the passage and understood it for what it meant. I didn't copy and paste it from an anti-JW website.

    The factual information I provide does not have any other purpose than to provide the facts. Science is not out to destroy religion. The facts just contradict religion. There is a huge difference. Religion wants to prove science wrong, where science just goes about its business collecting information. There is not a massive worldwide conspiracy produced by scientists to destroy religion. The facts are facts. Not made up. If you can't see that, then I feel very sorry for you.

    But since you seem to think that the information I am told is a lie, as I asked before and ask again, find one fact that proves evolution false. Just one. Remember, it must be a fact. I constantly provide facts that prove your religion false yet you find a way to ignore or rationalize (see Adam and Eve, Noah's Arc, Jonah and the whale, etc, etc).

    I've been preaching from the very beginning of our debates. Research the facts. Sheesh. You have never done that once. Not even once. You have never bothered to look up a passage from one of these so-called false religions and you have never looked up anything scientific. Never.

    I feel like I am always the one to do all the work in these debates. I research and prove wrong , you just make false statements and tell everyone they're wrong and you're right.

    Ha. And you think I'm pompous? What a f*cking joke.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Oct 05, 2010 at 12:10.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan

    To LJ:


    For the record, as I saw it mentioned, I am not a Buddhist, though I practiced Buddhism in my early twenties. I also read the Bhagavad Gita and practiced some Vedanta Hindu spirituality: yoga meditation and exercises, etc., based on the teachings of Ramana Maharashi.

    I have read many spiritual texts and delved into different teachings, for over eleven years. Atheism was one of them. However, my pursuit of these was largely in reaction to my former hatred of Christianity: the religion in which I was raised. So, I can relate to you.

    For years, I considered the possibility that I was acting partly in reaction to my hatred, but I could not see that I was. In time, I learned I actually was; and I only realized this after many years, because it was so subtle.

    Last year, after realizing that my accumulation of knowledge was not IT (communion with the Divine), and that my entire conduct was not reflective of what I was talking about and was contrived, I had a spiritual crisis. It was a blessing and exactly what I needed.

    My previous studies of Buddhism were influential and played a part in my awareness of my own BS, but it was a very personal, yet impersonal, experience of liberation, wherein religious affiliation did not play a part.

    It was like ice melting, in one of those nature documentaries, under which greenery is revealed, except, for me, the green was under ice for much more than one winter. Bitterness toward Christianity produced, and maintained, this ice. Love and personal impersonality destroyed all barriers.

    Why was it maintained? Partly because I did not understand Jesus (and other figures I attacked) and, in spite of my exhortations of freedom, wanted to control others. Again, this was more implicit, than it was explicit, and I did not see it, at the time. I ask you both to look within, so as to see if this is your case. There is never cause for anger, only for compassion and grace.

    I am not an atheist, but I love the atheist and sympathize with his/her brave struggle for freedom. I call him/her, however, to realize that bitterness keeps you endlessly tied to the very thing that you seek to escape. Look at Bill Maher: the man claims to be an atheist, yet he spends more time talking about Christianity than most Christians do.

    Bitterness prevents you from exploring the waters that extend beyond Christianity.

    I am not a Christian, but I love Jesus. I don't see the need for anyone to be a Christian, or to be part of any particular denomination: Catholicism, Baptist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, in order to love Jesus. Read Jesus' sermon on the mount: it speaks to any kindhearted person and against "Christian" hate and prejudice: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

    [10]
    I am happy that you have found something that makes you feel happy. I don't want to take that away from you.

    I have read the sermon on the mount. I know it quite well. I am not bitter. But to suggest my atheism is only from an anger and bitterness towards christianity and nothing to do with being a scientist and studying science insults me. That may be how you rationalize it for yourself but does not mean it applies to everyone else.

    And I do get angry when people like K4lyfe knock on people's doors and tell them they're wrong. I do get angry when cults control a person. I do get angry when a religion tells a child they are evil from birth and prohibits them from learning scientific facts and applying critical thinking.

    And I get especially angry when religion trys to force itself in our government and classrooms.

    Not once, in your post, do you talk about reality, only spirituality. Reality does exist. From the beginning, I have always preached to research the facts and educate yourself. Religion, in many ways, stands in the way of education. I do not want to force the removal of religion the way Chairman Mao Zedong did. But to have it go away from education and an understanding of the facts. Notice how the most educated societies are the least religious? They are also always ranked the happiest societies (excluding China ofcourse, for said reasons). Not because religion is gone but because through knowledge of facts = educated society = less poverty = less crime = happiness = less need for invisible friends to give hope.

    It seems, to me, to be a dangerous path for civilizaton to follow, when the population is told to accept what they're told without researching the facts.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Oct 05, 2010 at 12:38.

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    First off, Jehovahs witnesses would rather just inform people of Jehovah Gods purpose rather than try to disprove their faith. We do not engage in debates usually at a persons door. If invited in, we may try to engage a bit, but more likely than not, we pass the info on, or simply leave.

    Again, the information we have on other religions has proven to be ACCURATE! Therefore, Im baffled that u say I have not researched other faiths. I just recently showed a 5 percenter in his Koran where it says Jesus is of no earthly Father. I found this passage from our information. I really dont understand ur angle here. Its petty and almost childish lol. So what, should I badger a person at the door if they have minimal info on us due to word of mouth? Who cares where it came from if the information is accurate?

    Why would I forego a reliable source of info for the sake of saying I was self taught? For what? To poke my chest out and claim myself smartest man on the knicksonline message board like you? Keep that title playa! You own it like no other!

    You would be better served pointing out misunderstandings we have of other faiths. OG was a Budhist, he may or may not have read the excerpt on budhism, but I have yet to encounter a budhist who says our info on them is incorrect! So again, why should I forego the reliable source I have? thats STUPID!

    If your job was to decipher counterfiet money from real money, would you be better served studying real money, or sift thru countless amounts of fake money? let u tell it, studying fake money is the way to go. But the person well studied in real money will do Ten times the job you will. You will be unemployed soon.


    please oblige me so we can end this. How bout break down vs2-4 individually and I will follow and see which makes more biblical sense. Not LJ sense, biblical sense.

    This will be tough for u. You never keep in account the theme of the bible when u speak on it. #fail

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    First off, Jehovahs witnesses would rather just inform people of Jehovah Gods purpose rather than try to disprove their faith. We do not engage in debates usually at a persons door. If invited in, we may try to engage a bit, but more likely than not, we pass the info on, or simply leave.

    Again, the information we have on other religions has proven to be ACCURATE! Therefore, Im baffled that u say I have not researched other faiths. I just recently showed a 5 percenter in his Koran where it says Jesus is of no earthly Father. I found this passage from our information. I really dont understand ur angle here. Its petty and almost childish lol. So what, should I badger a person at the door if they have minimal info on us due to word of mouth? Who cares where it came from if the information is accurate?

    Why would I forego a reliable source of info for the sake of saying I was self taught? For what? To poke my chest out and claim myself smartest man on the knicksonline message board like you? Keep that title playa! You own it like no other!

    You would be better served pointing out misunderstandings we have of other faiths. OG was a Budhist, he may or may not have read the excerpt on budhism, but I have yet to encounter a budhist who says our info on them is incorrect! So again, why should I forego the reliable source I have? thats STUPID!

    If your job was to decipher counterfiet money from real money, would you be better served studying real money, or sift thru countless amounts of fake money? let u tell it, studying fake money is the way to go. But the person well studied in real money will do Ten times the job you will. You will be unemployed soon.
    That's just it. You assume you are studying real money, when all along you've been studying fake money. You never bothered to compare. Just assumed. You also never bother to look up facts about science. Just assume the JW website is factual about everything when clearly it is wrong.

    I have never said I am the smartest person. I don't know where you got that from and why you insist on thinking I am saying that. Just, as I have always done, demanded people to research the facts. Which you refuse to do. Somehow you've interpreted researching facts as being pompous. That makes me sad. You know what seems pompous to me? Knocking on people's doors and telling them they're wrong and you're right. Now that is f*cking pompous.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe

    please oblige me so we can end this. How bout break down vs2-4 individually and I will follow and see which makes more biblical sense. Not LJ sense, biblical sense.

    This will be tough for u. You never keep in account the theme of the bible when u speak on it. #fail

    2 In the last days
    the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
    as chief among the mountains;
    it will be raised above the hills,
    and all nations will stream to it.


    When you put the whole passage in it's appropriate context (i.e. reading the passages preceding and after it as well as understanding the theme of that particular book), which you never seem to do, it is obvious the book of Isaiah is referring to saving Jerusalem.

    So this passage can mean in the last days, the mountain with the lord's temple in Jerusalem will be the tallest mountain and that all nations will rush to pray there. This the more likely meaning.

    But this can also mean the kingdom of the lord will be the greatest.

    Either interpretation is fine with me.

    3 Many peoples will come and say,
    "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    to the house of the God of Jacob.
    He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths."
    The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


    This is pretty obvious. It means many people will come to the temple and say above quote and the lord from Jerusalem will teach them his laws and these laws will be spread from Jerusalem.


    4 He will judge between the nations
    and will settle disputes for many peoples.
    They will beat their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
    Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.


    This seems pretty obvious to me too. It means, in the end, the lord will end disputes between nations, and the people of these nations will rid themselves of their weapons and never make war or attack one another again.


    Do you see? Simple. This does not mean JWs will be in multiple nations and JWs will be peaceful to each other. You have twisted it, like you have done with every bible passage you quote.

    Now, did you interpret it that way through your own understanding, or were you told?

    The theme of the bible you keep referring to. You never explain your interpreted version of the theme, just keep mentioning this mysterious theme.

    I can sum up 90% of the old testament in one line. God saves jews, jews praise god, god then tells jews what to do, jews don't listen, god punishes jews. Repeat. Much of it is god being jealous and vengeful.

    Also bible has many weird rules and rather unsettling strories. There really is no moral foundation at all in the old testament (except 10 commandments, which 3/4 of them are pointless and aren't the real 10 commandments. If you want to know the real commandments, let me know) and I am always surprised there is a religion founded on it's teachings.

    So what is this mysterious theme you keep talking about? Let me guess, JWs are god's people. SMH.

    And don't you have to ask yourself how ridiculous the logic of all of this is? God made the meaning of his book difficult to interpret and understand, yet he will punish everyone for misunderstanding it, and he is all-knowing and all-seeing but didn't realize that he would have to murder 90% of his greatest creation because he made the book too difficult to understand?

    I am amazed you tell yourself this every day. Completely amazed. Why would he have the book not say what he intended literally? Why make it deliberately confusing? Where every passage is metaphor and not literal? That would not make any sense.

    If you put the bible in it's real theme and context, that is, written by jewish farmers and herders several thousand years ago that had little to no understanding of the world and universe around them, it becomes literal with very little metaphor and very simple to interpret. Although I am still amazed people today, with everything we know as fact, can still believe it as truth. It's both sad and funny.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Oct 05, 2010 at 18:49.

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