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Thread: The Verdict is in...

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Default The Verdict is in...

    Ask yourself this...

    1. Would our team perform so poorly under Doc Rivers, Phil Jackson, Pop, or even Van Gundy?

    2. Wasn't there a chicken or egg debate about who's to blame; the coach or the players?

    3. What team looks so good yet so bad from game to game?

    4. Who's in charge of producing leaders, accountability, and in game adjustments?

    5. What coach has a winning resume but hasn't won?

    Well the verdict is in. It might be my impatience but I think I'm comvinced. We are the Dallas cowboys of BB, and MDA is Wade Phillips.

    His body language says it all. His speeches and lack of accountability says more. First it was talent.

    So we brought MDA in here b/c we thought he could persuade talent... he failed.

    We brought MDA in to reinvigorate the offense... he failed.

    We adhered to this spread P & R philosophy, and blamed the players, but for some reason, we can't execute it... why? Could it be b/c even when ran to perfection it lacks fundamentals? Just maybe...

    Haven't we disected this to no end? And haven't we concluded it was the players? Well perenial all-stars were added... a playoff experienced PG was added, and what happened?

    Defense was added... and what happened?

    I'll tell you what happened... MDA is the Wade Phillips of BB. More talent and not enough of what's needed.. Leadership. Accountability. Consistency.

    Our mistakes began with drafting Gallo.. b/c of who...? MDA

    We gutted our roster and added "athletic" players, suited for a system, who can't execute, b/c of who...? MDA

    Why are we missing but STILL chucking 3's? MDA

    Why can't we run the basic plays like a P&R? B/c we neglect to exploit the low post and work from the inside out.. why? MDA

    Why isn't Gallo (the best shooter ever) confident, and so streaky? MDA conditioning.

    Why isn't the rotation set? MDA

    Why don't we have Lopez & Jennings? MDA

    Why...

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Default cont'd

    Why can't we close out opponents? MDA's system

    Do you still think players are fiending to play for MDA? Nope

    Why are we still falling behind and playing catch-up every game...? MDA

    I like coaches like Parcells, and Bellicheck. They hold players accountable and always put the team first. They know how to find leaders as well as complimentry players. They check players ego's and produce results with little to no excuses.

    Can MDA bring the best out of all his players... no. For every D. Lee there are 10 Duhons and Douglases.

    Duhon couldn't handle the system, and Douglas was overlooked and under used, why...? MDA

    This coach is one dimensional. And no its not an offensive genius missing defense. Its one system that is all or nothing, sink or swim.

    He inspires no one. The inconsistency and low moral is a tell tale sign. The lack of fundamental coaching decisions and influences is glaring.

    We tried to change the loosing culture with a coach who can't get the best out of his team.

    We need to go back to basics, not blow the doors off. What we need is a veteran coach who preaches fundamentals. Keeping your head in the game. Exploiting the post 1st. Getting guys shots they're comfy with, not what the system didctates.

    Controlling the pace of the game. How to get the ball in the hot players hands, at the spot he likes. Where's the curl plays & screens below the free throw extended. The back door cuts, The low post, and iso plays, Where's the set rotation with the center who plays defense? Where's the consistency?

    I said we're coming together... where's the coach who improves on this? Who makes decisions NOT to beat ourselves? We need better coaching Herb W. included. If a coach has the his way or highway approach... his way better be fundamentally sound.

    You think Phil Jackson would have us looking like this? You think Gallo or Felton would look like this on a better coached team?

    Imagine Gallo in LA
    Last edited by Red; Nov 12, 2010 at 08:24.

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    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    Michael Kay was talking about the Knicks yesterday. He passed along a tidbit from a former player, and said that MD NEVER goes over defense in practice. In camp, thy spend a few weeks talking about what to do but after that.... NOTHING. NO game plan for a certain team of matchup, no going over assigments or working on fundamentals....

    Spurs work on defense like 20 minutes each practice. Go over p&r defense and whatnot.... And that's a vet team together for years.

    SO, the paradox is what does MD expect? He goes off on players if the blow it and leave someone open.... but if you do not practice what to do, how can you fault somebody for not being sharp?

    Seems odd if you ask me.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    I'm not going down the whole list but I will mention a few important points:

    We are the 4th youngest team

    We play 2 rookies in our starting lineup

    85% of our team is new

    If you factor those points into your assessment of our team this early in the season it does put our 3-5 record in perspective. Has D'ant been perfect? No. Have we shown inconsistencies? Yes. But it is early in the season with a new group of young ass players. I think we need to give it some time before we can say "the verdict is in".

    I will be happy to see D'ant go if we are still playing this inconsistent in 40 games.

    P.S. You ask about Doc Rivers but he had a horrible record until the Big Three were assembled. Does D'ant have anything close to a big 3? Nope.

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    OK TRILL, I get it... the players have a say in success but how about this...

    Take this into account... YES-YES-YES, IF we execute this offense we can score but...

    at the end of the GS game, those plays and those shots AFTER almost getting blown out... who was in charge of that?

    The "spacing issue" and inability to get Amare the ball in the low post... who was in charge of that?

    Last year refusing to play T Doug over Duhon? Refusing to foul late? Not getting players their shot & expecting them to shoot within the system regardless of their positioning.. who was in charge of that. You think a Doc or Jack would do that? C'Mon.

    Can we just stop fooling ourself. MDA has some good qualities but overall has too many bad things and lacks fundamentals in his approach.

    The players beefing and not getting along with him... the inability to adapt and change approaches like when Portland & Philly went to the zone... I mean, Fundamentally, young players should be able to be coached on dealing w/ this.. But why not? Cause they're young?

    And now what, we have to look accross the league and compare our team age with the age of successful teams? That's weak. Age has nothing to do with high volume- low % shots!

    Age has nothing to do with, poor decisions, lack of spacing, turnovers, mistakes, inconsistency, inability to execute. Besides who's so young in our starters?

    Felt is a vet now, Amare is a vet, Fields plays above his age, Chandler was good enough to be 15 & 5 late last yr. So who's so young that's causing us these type loses? Who's in charge of intensity, pride, fundamentals? Game plan? Adjustments?

    Whenever I ? a coach, I look @ the best and say... "I wonder if my team would look like this with that "best" coach"... and you and I know the answer is no.

    These issues are too glaring. Young well coached teams compete and accentuate their positives.. they may lose but a team that beats itself & lacks fundamentals with talent is

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    .... also know as the Dallas Cowboys! and we see what happened to that coach.

    Winning and losing is one thing. But there's much to be said in HOW YOU WIN OR LOSE.

    The way we win or lose is telling. It's lack of coaching and fundamentals. Lack of pride, consistency, and adjustments, but guess what we have a lot of...

    m*therf*cking EXCUSES!

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Red,

    Age and a new roster are certainly important facts considering we are only 8 games into the season. (certainly not weak) Look at how Miami is struggling...it takes time to gel and it takes time to run an efficient offense when you have new players.

    Spacing is an issue that both the coach and players hold responsibility for. Once our players are really comfortable and know each other they will all be in the appropriate positions on the floor. You act as if D'ant is playing 2K and has minute to minute total control over what his players are doing. That said, our spacing and ball movement has actually been quite good. We are losing because we are missing open shots and can't make stops at crucial points. You act as if players are running into eachother or allowing defenses to help because our players are bunched up around the scorer. Not the case.

    Forget about last year and who got what playing time. That was a different roster and we were in a cap shedding/inflate players value mode. I think D'ants rotation is spot on this year so harping on last year means nothing.

    The players beefing and not getting along with him
    Again, this is last year and most of that was not his fault. I hate to be put in a position to look like I defend D'ant but reality is reality.

    Felt and Amare may be vets but they are new to playing with each other. We are turnover prone mostly because Felton has been unable to get Amre the ball in the right place. This is obviously not a coaching issue since Amare and Nash ran the PnR so efficiently under D'ant. The blame for this is solely Fletons and I believe he will get better with TIME.

    So yea, 8 games into a new season with such a new and young roster is way to quick to pass judgment and claim the "verdict is in". Last year we went 1-9 in the beginning yet up to a point were still in the playoff hunt. Relax and give this group a chance to gel and play consistent. We have seen how good our team can look playing this system and how close we were at beating Portland and Boston.

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    Oh, BTW our team defense has been really good for most of the time. We are rebounding, blocking shots, doubling, pressing, switching and harassing more then any time this decade. We certainly missed Turiaf's presence the other night against Goldenstate. Again, as the season progresses all those "good things" we see will become more consistent while the "bad things" happen less and less. The effort for the most part is there so just give it some effing time!

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Ok Trill, so answer this...

    Since you compared us to MIA... are you telling me they lost those games in the same fashion as we did? They made the same type of mistakes and played without fundamentals as we did?

    If players couldn't get along with the coach in the past, then no one was willing to sign on (except Amare) last yr... was that not relevent to MDA?

    All I am saying is... the way we play, the ways we lose, aren't those alarming to you? Especially when you saw this for two years with two different rosters but the same coach?

    Aren't you wondering why do we keep running the same few plays that aren't working? Why are we chucking up (open or not) 3's when we need to get to the hole?

    Remember when we knew where our players liked the ball, where they almost certainly would make a shot? Like Ewing at the 15ft mark, or Allen off the screen or curl?

    Are you telling me you never said to yourself... why are we taking these shots? Why aren't we getting players the shots at spaces they like? Doesn't it seem forced?

    U never say... why is a player losing focus and dribbling off his foot w/ no defense on him? Or why are we lacking basics like ability to catch passes or set screens?

    Why didn't we adjust to zone defenses? Its simple, this system is designed to NOT have a superstar.

    Doesn't it looked ad-libbed? Don't you say, what team can't get their stars shots they want except us? What team are u worried can't pass or catch or dribble, with confidence? Who's being held accountable?

    Is the top of the arc 3 Chandler or Felts shot? or is the system dictating this? I mean for real... for some reason we don't see these mistakes from better coached teams... its how we lose.. trust me. MDA Needs to adjust or he should be gone.

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    You are not addressing my points and I'm starting to believe you don't really watch the games. We are spacing and moving the ball really nice despite what you are asserting. Our problems in our losses have been missing open shots and and not getting critical stops. We are not running the same plays over and over and for the most part our scoring has been spread amongst 3-5 players on any given night.

    It seems like you are ignoring reality and are stuck on media bias and talking points from the last 2 years.

    I think if Amare and Felton can start running the PnR effectively, Chandler stops taking so many 3's and Gallo plays like he did the second half of last year we will be formidable. Again, I am really only asking for time and for you to stop with the "sky is falling blame D'ant" crap just 8 games in.

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    Default good th-red

    i read this red thread, and i like it. why? because Red points out so many things about 'Antoni that I despise, have despised, and will continue to despise until he is gone. I also like how Trill points out how early in season we are, and how young team is, and the improvements we've made. This is what a KO thread should be about, point and counterpoint. good job.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Red,

    Age and a new roster are certainly important facts considering we are only 8 games into the season. (certainly not weak) Look at how Miami is struggling...it takes time to gel and it takes time to run an efficient offense when you have new players.

    Spacing is an issue that both the coach and players hold responsibility for. Once our players are really comfortable and know each other they will all be in the appropriate positions on the floor. You act as if D'ant is playing 2K and has minute to minute total control over what his players are doing. That said, our spacing and ball movement has actually been quite good. We are losing because we are missing open shots and can't make stops at crucial points. You act as if players are running into eachother or allowing defenses to help because our players are bunched up around the scorer. Not the case.

    Forget about last year and who got what playing time. That was a different roster and we were in a cap shedding/inflate players value mode. I think D'ants rotation is spot on this year so harping on last year means nothing.



    Again, this is last year and most of that was not his fault. I hate to be put in a position to look like I defend D'ant but reality is reality.

    Felt and Amare may be vets but they are new to playing with each other. We are turnover prone mostly because Felton has been unable to get Amre the ball in the right place. This is obviously not a coaching issue since Amare and Nash ran the PnR so efficiently under D'ant. The blame for this is solely Fletons and I believe he will get better with TIME.

    So yea, 8 games into a new season with such a new and young roster is way to quick to pass judgment and claim the "verdict is in". Last year we went 1-9 in the beginning yet up to a point were still in the playoff hunt. Relax and give this group a chance to gel and play consistent. We have seen how good our team can look playing this system and how close we were at beating Portland and Boston.
    I hope you really arent comparing Miami's struggles to the Knicks. Miami is losing to TALENTED TEAMS. N O., Boston (2), and Utah. The Knicks are losing to Philly, GS, Mil. Teams they should beat at home.

    The object of basketball is to get the ball as close to the rim as possible FOR EASY SHOTS. You have the length and talent to do this but not the system. (I dont know his shot chart selection) BUT, I would guess at least 60% of STAT's shot attempts come from 15 ft and out. This is absolutely ludicrous. This is on the coach.

    I agree with the OP. No way those coaches have this team playing in this manner. We'd be a much better team with a conventional post up offense and concentrating on defense. Case and point. Mosgov. The best thing he can do for you right now is play defense and rebound. WHY ISNT THIS HIS CONCENTRATION? This guy could get you 12-15 boards a game easy if he were coached to do it.

    I really hate they direction this team is headed. It should be much better.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    I hope you really arent comparing Miami's struggles to the Knicks. Miami is losing to TALENTED TEAMS. N O., Boston (2), and Utah. The Knicks are losing to Philly, GS, Mil. Teams they should beat at home.

    The object of basketball is to get the ball as close to the rim as possible FOR EASY SHOTS. You have the length and talent to do this but not the system. (I dont know his shot chart selection) BUT, I would guess at least 60% of STAT's shot attempts come from 15 ft and out. This is absolutely ludicrous. This is on the coach.

    I agree with the OP. No way those coaches have this team playing in this manner. We'd be a much better team with a conventional post up offense and concentrating on defense. Case and point. Mosgov. The best thing he can do for you right now is play defense and rebound. WHY ISNT THIS HIS CONCENTRATION? This guy could get you 12-15 boards a game easy if he were coached to do it.

    I really hate they direction this team is headed. It should be much better.
    Dude, I made a comparison that pointed out that Miami is not firing on all cylinders because they have a bunch of new players. Regardless of who they are playing, they looked flawed. This will most certainly change as they learn how to play effectively with one another. The same holds true for the Knicks. No comparison is a 100% parody so picking at the edges does nothing to counter the point I was making.

    BTW, 2 of our 5 losses were against 50 win teams. The Bucks are a good squad and so is Goldenstate. The only absolute win game that we lost was against Philly and that game came down to TD's botched defensive play and some missed open shots.

    Look, feel free to hate D'ant all you want but lets actually speak about reality and not cling to blind bias. You and Red want D'ant gone...fine I respect that but stating things that aren't true like spacing issues needs to be countered.

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    Quote "I really hate they direction this team is headed. It should be much better." end Quote"

    Agree, I think we are ranked #1 in 3pt attempts but have a 23% rating...

    In the words of Keshawn "C'mon mannn!!"

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Dude, I made a comparison that pointed out that Miami is not firing on all cylinders because they have a bunch of new players. Regardless of who they are playing, they looked flawed. This will most certainly change as they learn how to play effectively with one another. The same holds true for the Knicks. No comparison is a 100% parody so picking at the edges does nothing to counter the point I was making.

    BTW, 2 our our 5 losses were against 50 win teams. The Bucks are a good squad and so id Goldenstate. The only absolute win game that we lost was against Philly and that game came down to TD's botched defensive play and some missed open shots.

    Look, feel free to hate D'ant all you want but lets actually speak about reality and not cling to blind bias. You and Red want D'ant gone...fine I respect that but stating things that aren't true like spacing issues needs to be countered.
    So in one paragraph you say forget about last year, yet you mention teams that won 50 games last year as a defense to the Knicks losing to them. OK, I get it. Oh I never mentioned spacing as one of my issues.

    Facts are this year the Knicks should've beat Portland and GS with better end game coaching.

    Facts are STAT should not be dribbling the ball 15-20 ft out trying to get to the rim. Bad coaching.

    Facts are Mosgov & STAT should be utilized CLOSER to the basket in order to use their size and athletism. Bad coaching.

    Facts are if you cant shot 33.3% from 3 point range you shouldnt be putting up three's like you shoot it well. Bad coaching.

    If this coach truly doesnt go over defensive game plans for every team he should be fired. PERIOD. Defense is 50% of basketball. Always has been always will be.

    I dont have a bias against M D. I havent watched the Knicks in 5-6 years because they've been HORRIBLE. I figured I'd give them a chance this year and what I see I dont like. This guy doesnt utilize the players strengths. He doesnt utilize mismatches. Its all about his system. We dont have the players to play his system each and every game of the year. When everyone is hitting the three its fine. When they arent he needs to make adjustments. Something that he seems incapable of doing...

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