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Thread: The Verdict is in...

  1. #16
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    So in one paragraph you say forget about last year, yet you mention teams that won 50 games last year as a defense to the Knicks losing to them.
    Cute but a swing and a miss! I only pointed out their record from last year because they remain as talented if not better THIS YEAR. Pointing that out is not the same thing as pointing out someones playing time last year which is different this year or pointing out personality conflicts with players that are no longer on the roster. I am not sure why you are trying to play these corny games when you know very well what my points are but ok...do you dude.

    Facts are this year the Knicks should've beat Portland and GS with better end game coaching.
    Really, like what?

    Facts are STAT should not be dribbling the ball 15-20 ft out trying to get to the rim. Bad coaching.
    Please...this is the easiest talking point of them all to counter since D'ant coached Amare with the Suns and had him playing at a high level. Again, it's all about Felton getting Amare the ball in the right position similar to what Nash could do. You act like D'ant is telling Felton to give Amare the ball at the top of the key so he can run an isolation play. That simply not the case and his years as the Suns headcoach is proof positive.

    Facts are if you cant shot 33.3% from 3 point range you shouldnt be putting up three's like you shoot it well. Bad coaching.
    Bad coaching? No, bad shooting. For the most part we are taking open uncontested shots and they are missing. The system works if players can actually start hitting shots because it allows the court to be spread and Amare not to be doubled and tripled every time he gets the ball. Again, this is execution and consistency that SHOULD get better as the players gel.

    If this coach truly doesnt go over defensive game plans for every team he should be fired. PERIOD. Defense is 50% of basketball. Always has been always will be.
    I guess you don't watch the "Mic Check" segments during every game that clearly shows D'ant coaching defense and discussing specific sets. Either you don't watch games and are talking out of your arse or you willfully ignore whats right in front of your face to perpetuate your hate for a coach you don't like.

    I dont have a bias against M D. I havent watched the Knicks in 5-6 years because they've been HORRIBLE. I figured I'd give them a chance this year and what I see I dont like. This guy doesnt utilize the players strengths. He doesnt utilize mismatches. Its all about his system. We dont have the players to play his system each and every game of the year. When everyone is hitting the three its fine. When they arent he needs to make adjustments. Something that he seems incapable of doing...
    Exactly what I thought. You admit you have not watched for 5-6 years and now you want to pass judgment after 8 games. Sorry but your sample size is too small to sound remotely credible.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    -Good thread.
    -Good points both by Trillion and Red Rocket. Both are so good, in fact, that they create a stalemate.

    Until we hit December, it will remain a stalemate.

    I think I'll hang on to this link and rekindle the argument when a more permanent verdict is in. Until then it's a tough call.

    One thing I will stand by at this point in the season, is that we're not playing to the strengths of our pieces, and I blame that on the coaching.

    Pioneering thread for the upcoming 2 months.

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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    -Good thread.
    -Good points both by Trillion and Red Rocket. Both are so good, in fact, that they create a stalemate.

    Until we hit December, it will remain a stalemate.

    I think I'll hang on to this link and rekindle the argument when a more permanent verdict is in. Until then it's a tough call.

    One thing I will stand by at this point in the season, is that we're not playing to the strengths of our pieces, and I blame that on the coaching.

    Pioneering thread for the upcoming 2 months.
    I agree and my whole point that it is too early to pass judgment. Further, I am on board with getting a new coach if we are still playing inconsistently in a few months considering I like our roster. I agree at times players like CHandler are not playing to his strengths, he should drive more. Yes, coach should get some of the blame but so should Chandler who is notorious for having a low bball IQ.

    Amare strengths shine when he can finish hence why I was hesitant about the signing and predicted these troubles once he did not have Nash. There isn't really anything D'ant can do about this but I am optimistic that Felton and Amare can start to groove once they learn each others nuances.

    Gallo is driving more and more, picking up fouls and seems to be rebounding at critical times. His shooting inconsistency can't be blamed on D'ant.

    So yes, D'ant may not have this team playing to it's full potential but some of that blame has to be on the players and hopefully these issues will be worked out as the season progresses. Again, 85% new roster, 4th youngest team and major playing time for rookies is going to lead to some disappointing outings in the beginning regardless of who is the coach.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Cute but a swing and a miss! I only pointed out their record from last year because they remain as talented if not better THIS YEAR. Pointing that out is not the same thing as pointing out someones playing time last year which is different this year or pointing out personality conflicts with players that are no longer on the roster. I am not sure why you are trying to play these corny games when you know very well what my points are but ok...do you dude.



    Really, like what?

    Like not hoisting up three's constantly.



    Please...this is the easiest talking point of them all to counter since D'ant coached Amare with the Suns and had him playing at a high level. Again, it's all about Felton getting Amare the ball in the right position similar to what Nash could do. You act like D'ant is telling Felton to give Amare the ball at the top of the key so he can run an isolation play. That simply not the case and his years as the Suns headcoach is proof positive.

    Which validates my point that this coach doesnt utilize the players strengths. Felton is no Nash. Maybe using Felton's strengths moreso than your system would create a better product. Putting Amare in the post being that we dont have Nash can only help the team.



    Bad coaching? No, bad shooting. For the most part we are taking open uncontested shots and they are missing. The system works if players can actually start hitting shots because it allows the court to be spread and Amare not to be doubled and tripled every time he gets the ball. Again, this is execution and consistency that SHOULD get better as the players gel.

    Not sure if you played BBall, but trust me if you cant shoot the coach will let you know and regulate the spots on the floor you should be shooting from. Case and point instead of Chandler hoisting up three's from 25 ft move in 5 ft. Its a better shot for him.


    I guess you don't watch the "Mic Check" segments during every game that clearly shows D'ant coaching defense and discussing specific sets. Either you don't watch games and are talking out of your arse or you willfully ignore whats right in front of your face to perpetuate your hate for a coach you don't like.

    Mic Check? Nope. I watch the games. Like I said IF he doesnt go over defensive assignments. Never said that he did or didnt.



    Exactly what I thought. You admit you have not watched for 5-6 years and now you want to pass judgment after 8 games. Sorry but your sample size is too small to sound remotely credible.
    Pass judgment? I'm expressing my humble opinion based on what I see happening on the floor. The only thing you've disputed (incorrectly I might add) Is Amare handling the ball, and shooting three's. I've forgotten more BBall than I can remember. Trust me I know what I'm talking about.

    You're the one that seems to be biased in favor of Dantoni. Why is that?

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    I am biased towards the truth not any one coach. I am here to discuss Knicks and if someone makes points that I feel aren't rooted in reality I will say something.


    The only thing you've disputed (incorrectly I might add)
    Really? No not really...hence my above point about my bias towards reality. Please show me exactly what I have incorrectly disputed and back it up with an actual argument. Making a list and calling them facts when they clearly aren't is not proving anything.

    I've forgotten more BBall than I can remember
    Don't be so hard on yourself dude.

    So if you want to dispute my points I will be happy to debate them line by line. Go ahead dude, show us you know what you are talking about instead of simply stating it.

  6. #21
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    Haha you can see the frustration on Dantoni's face when the Knicks are screwing up simple plays. One of the youngest teams in the league, and no one in their right mind thought there wouldn't be any growing pains.

    Dantoni is definitely not on my top list of coaches, but he's nowhere near as bad as a lot of people on the board make him. Personally, I was fist pumping when we didn't hire that idiot on the mic Mark Jackson. I hate when players feel entitled to be head coach without working for it. Not to mention his nickname should be captain obvious when he works commentary.

    Got a little off track, but please don't fall into the trap of making the coach the sole scapegoat. Don't be like Lebon bon who always places blame on something else other than himself. If we had hit just a few more wide open 3s, we would have won at least 2 more games and everyone would be talking about how awesome we are and its the return of Dant's old Suns.

    Sidenote - Please stop saying FACT when you mean its your opinion. Its the internet, you can look up the definition of FACT in google if you really need.

  7. #22
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I agree at times players like CHandler are not playing to his strengths, he should drive more. Yes, coach should get some of the blame but so should Chandler who is notorious for having a low bball IQ.

    Gallo is driving more and more, picking up fouls and seems to be rebounding at critical times. His shooting inconsistency can't be blamed on D'ant.
    Right now, on offense not defence, I have the two on par in terms of their IQ/awareness. Comparatively, on both O & D, I give the upper hand to Chandler for his output and effort, though. Particularly those blocks he's been racking up.

    Don't wanna start this debate again, but for those of us who have really watched the games - and I know you have NBA L.P.B and can really get down to analysis - to say that Gallo has played with any 'savvy' on either end, thus far, would be a very big call. Particularly if you're pitting him against Chandler and were to tip the scales in Gallo's favour.

    I can't give him any free passes, thus far, after he had a year of starting with major minutes and an off-season to refine his game.

    ☆That wrist looks fine when he's making his shots.

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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    Right now, on offense not defence, I have the two on par in terms of their IQ/awareness. Comparatively, on both O & D, I give the upper hand to Chandler for his output and effort, though. Particularly those blocks he's been racking up.

    Don't wanna start this debate again, but for those of us who have really watched the games - and I know you have NBA L.P.B and can really get down to analysis - to say that Gallo has played with any 'savvy' on either end, thus far, would be a very big call. Particularly if you're pitting him against Chandler and were to tip the scales in Gallo's favour.

    I can't give him any free passes, thus far, after he had a year of starting with major minutes and an off-season to refine his game.

    ☆That wrist looks fine when he's making his shots.
    I hope you don't think I was suggesting Gallo has played better on either side of the court compared to Chandler. I haven't I merely pointed out that he seems to be driving more and picking up fouls.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I hope you don't think I was suggesting Gallo has played better on either side of the court compared to Chandler. I haven't I merely pointed out that he seems to be driving more and picking up fouls.
    No, no. I just got carried away. I was speaking more so about Gallo's IQ thus far in the season and preseason. He looks like a dyslexic kid in front of a crossword.

    Wilson may be notorious for his low IQ, but Gallo certainly hasn't split an atom this year.

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    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
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    I took the time to read every post in this thread to get various points of view and I absolutely agree with the assertion that MDA has some bad flaws in his coaching style.
     
    TRILL - I give the team a little slack because they are new BUT some of the things like finishing games with high % shots and running offensively sound plays are sorely lacking. MDA is in love with the 3 to a fault. Its really as if he hears the criticism but wants to prove everyone wrong. Game plans should change based on your opponent and this doesn't seem to be the case with him. I watch every Knick game and I can tell you that often the spacing is bad. Sometimes itís the players' fault and other times its just bad coaching.
     
    We're better defensively in terms of blocking shots but we still allow to many points to be considered a good defensive team. Great defense is about more than shot blocks. Actually you don't even have to block shots to be a great defensive team.
     
    Our problems run deeper than just missing open shots. We're taking too many low % shots AND missing them. If your down by 15, you can't expect to just hit 5 threes in a row and breathe again. You have to work your way back by getting to the line and making stops. Itís a moot point if your only trying to make shots to get back in the game. Stops are equally important and our young players need to learn how to do these things under pressure situations.
     
    Young team or not, you still play the game the same way older players play it. OKC understands this and I believe they are a very young team as well.

  11. #26
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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    No, no. I just got carried away. I was speaking more so about Gallo's IQ thus far in the season and preseason. He looks like a dyslexic kid in front of a crossword.

    Wilson may be notorious for his low IQ, but Gallo certainly hasn't split an atom this year.

    I agree and his recent comments about him not having the tools to be a star are disturbing. That is why I say we should trade to get Melo.

  12. #27
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I am biased towards the truth not any one coach. I am here to discuss Knicks and if someone makes points that I feel aren't rooted in reality I will say something.




    Really? No not really...hence my above point about my bias towards reality. Please show me exactly what I have incorrectly disputed and back it up with an actual argument. Making a list and calling them facts when they clearly aren't is not proving anything.



    Don't be so hard on yourself dude.

    So if you want to dispute my points I will be happy to debate them line by line. Go ahead dude, show us you know what you are talking about instead of simply stating it.

    Well maybe your reality is different from mine.

    But to put it simply my reality see's that Mike D is completely married to his system. There is no plan B. Amare is a mismatch for anyone trying to guard him in the post. This isnt utilized nearly enough. Amare handles the ball to far from the basket. As soon as he puts it on the floor he's double and triple teamed and most times it results in a turnover. Mike D has to many bad three point shooters shooting three pointers. This is because of his system, not the players strengths. Coming into the season all the talk was about the Knicks now having Length and Athleticism. Why is it that it isnt being used properly? Instead of STAT, AR, Mos, Turiaf, and sometimes Chandler running around the perimeter put them closer to the basket were they'll be more effective.

    Your reality seems to be that it's somewhat on the players. Which I cant agree with. They players play like the coach wants them to. Your reality seems to think having STAT 15-20 out and dribbling to the basket is good basketball. Its not.

    As far as me being hard on myself If I'm not who will be...

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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    I took the time to read every post in this thread to get various points of view and I absolutely agree with the assertion that MDA has some bad flaws in his coaching style.
     
    TRILL - I give the team a little slack because they are new BUT some of the things like finishing games with high % shots and running offensively sound plays are sorely lacking. MDA is in love with the 3 to a fault. Its really as if he hears the criticism but wants to prove everyone wrong. Game plans should change based on your opponent and this doesn't seem to be the case with him. I watch every Knick game and I can tell you that often the spacing is bad. Sometimes it’s the players' fault and other times its just bad coaching.
     
    We're better defensively in terms of blocking shots but we still allow to many points to be considered a good defensive team. Great defense is about more than shot blocks. Actually you don't even have to block shots to be a great defensive team.
     
    Our problems run deeper than just missing open shots. We're taking too many low % shots AND missing them. If your down by 15, you can't expect to just hit 5 threes in a row and breathe again. You have to work your way back by getting to the line and making stops. It’s a moot point if your only trying to make shots to get back in the game. Stops are equally important and our young players need to learn how to do these things under pressure situations.
     
    Young team or not, you still play the game the same way older players play it. OKC understands this and I believe they are a very young team as well.

    I don't understand how you can say we don't space the floor? Most of those three's you complain about are open shots. I think you see Amare working in traffic and make assumptions on space not realizing that the defense is collapsing on him because we are inconsistent not because our players are bunched up together. The ball movement, the top of the key picks and the open shots are a clear sign of good spacing. All we need to do is start hitting those open shots and not forcing the ones that are contested.

    I never said we were a great defensive team but we are vastly improved. We give up a lot of points more as a product of the increased possessions SSOL gives and not because the intensity or effort.

    Yes, we have to cut down on contested shots and players like Chandler need to drive and pick up fouls instead of hoisting 3's. No argument there but I think people are overstating the frequency of this issue.

    OKC is indeed young but their roster has been together for years and is full of all-stars including a legit super star.
    Last edited by TR1LL10N; Nov 12, 2010 at 11:44.

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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Well maybe your reality is different from mine.

    But to put it simply my reality see's that Mike D is completely married to his system. There is no plan B. Amare is a mismatch for anyone trying to guard him in the post. This isnt utilized nearly enough. Amare handles the ball to far from the basket. As soon as he puts it on the floor he's double and triple teamed and most times it results in a turnover. Mike D has to many bad three point shooters shooting three pointers. This is because of his system, not the players strengths. Coming into the season all the talk was about the Knicks now having Length and Athleticism. Why is it that it isnt being used properly? Instead of STAT, AR, Mos, Turiaf, and sometimes Chandler running around the perimeter put them closer to the basket were they'll be more effective.

    Your reality seems to be that it's somewhat on the players. Which I cant agree with. They players play like the coach wants them to. Your reality seems to think having STAT 15-20 out and dribbling to the basket is good basketball. Its not.

    As far as me being hard on myself If I'm not who will be...
    You are right, our realities are different considering you are tying to assert Amare is a post up player. He is not...period! He is a face to the basket mid range shooter and a finisher if given the ball while in motion. He is getting the ball 15 feet out because Felton is not feeding it to him properly. Again, if this was a coaching issue the same problems would have been happening in Phoenix.

    Your reality seems to be that it's somewhat on the players. Which I cant agree with.
    Right, so it's all on the coach and has nothing to do with the players. Thanks for proving who lives in reality and who doesn't! You do know that D'ant does not have a joystick and is not controlling what his players do each and every minute? You do know he does not freeze time, walk on to the court and whisper to CHandler to launch a three from 4 feet beyond the arc with 18 seconds left on the shotclock and a defender in his face..right?

    So yes, D'ant employs HIS system because well it's HIS system! It's a system that lead to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, back to back 60 win seasons and back to back Western Conference Finals appearances. They were tied 2/2 against the SPurs going back to their home court when Amare and Barbosa (Ithink it was Barbosa) were suspended. Had that not happened they may have won that series and faced Lebrick and the Cavs in finals.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    The system works if players can actually start hitting shots because it allows the court to be spread and Amare not to be doubled and tripled every time he gets the ball. Again, this is execution and consistency that SHOULD get better as the players gel.
    Wrong. This is exactly what myself and others are trying to point out. You can't be successful with an offense that works ONLY if you hit a high % of long range 3pt shots. Only the best shooters can run a % of 45% and over for a whole season and its probably very few of them (I'll let u look that one up). This offense is either hit or miss. There's no middle ground for success.

    If players aren't hitting shots on a particular night then the system should be adjusted don't you think? Hitting 3s has never been consistent with most players, this is proven by the way we categorize a good 3pt shooter (north of 35%) and a great one (north of 40%). However, when talking about overall FG%, players can easily hit the 40%-50% mark because the shots get easier closer to the basket.

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