Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 195

Thread: The Verdict is in...

  1. #31
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,463
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    [quote=TR1LL10N;141335]I don't understand how you can say we don't space the floor? Most of those three's you complain about are open shots. I think you see Amare working in traffic and make assumptions on space not realizing that the defense is collapsing on him because we are inconsistent not because our players are bunched up together.

    You ever think the other team knows that most of the players will be chucking up three's and unless they're all hitting them stopping STAT is first and foremost on their agenda? Except for Gallo who would other teams really fear on this team making threes consistently? TD? Not really proven. Fielder? I dont see it do you? Chandler? No. Felton? Not really. If you get those same players taking it to the rim creating fouls, easy shots for themselves and teammates now your on to something. Unconsciously hoisting up threes (WITH THIS TEAM) isnt playing winning basketball.

    I read today that Mike D thinks Fielder cuts to the basket TOO MUCH when Amare has the ball out high? LOL. So he'd rather have STAT try to dribble (which face it he's not good at) to the basket than possibly having an easy bucket by making a simple pass. I'd venture to guess if Amare made a pass for a basket often enough we'd win many more games than we would with him trying to dribble through traffic.

  2. #32
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,463
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    You are right, our realities are different considering you are tying to assert Amare is a post up player. He is not...period! He is a face to the basket mid range shooter and a finisher if given the ball while in motion. He is getting the ball 15 feet out because Felton is not feeding it to him properly. Again, if this was a coaching issue the same problems would have been happening in Phoenix.



    Right, so it's all on the coach and has nothing to do with the players. Thanks for proving who lives in reality and who doesn't! You do know that D'ant does not have a joystick and is not controlling what his players do each and every minute? You do know he does not freeze time, walk on to the court and whisper to CHandler to launch a three from 4 feet beyond the arc with 18 seconds left on the shotclock and a defender in his face..right?

    You dont get it. The players play like the coach WANTS THEM TO. If the players deviated from his style then you could put it on the players. Let me give you a simple analogy so that maybe you can understand me a bit better.

    Put Rondo on the Knicks. A notoriously bad shooter, but excellent at just about anything else you ask him to do on the floor. Instead of him playing to his strengths, which is penetrating and getting easy baskets for him self and his teammates. In this system he'd be hoisting up 3-4 threes a game. He'd be picking and rolling instead constantly instead of creating. Not winning basketball, no matter how you slice it. So in essence you couldnt put the blame on Rondo. Now do you understand?

    So yes, D'ant employs HIS system because well it's HIS system! It's a system that lead to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, back to back 60 win seasons and back to back Western Conference Finals appearances. They were tied 2/2 against the SPurs going back to their home court when Amare and Barbosa (Ithink it was Barbosa) were suspended. Had that not happened they may have won that series and faced Lebrick and the Cavs in finals.
    Dude that was an ENTIRELY different team. If this current team wins 50 with this coach playing this system I'll wash your car for you for the entire summer of 2011. It aint happening.

  3. #33
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,308
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    On Spacing... MDA was the one who said it was poor, that wasn't my sole opinion in was a FACT that MDA pointed out.

    On the system & 3's...
    Trill you keep mentioning "open Three's or shots"... all I can say is this is actually the issue now isn't it? You & MDA seem to feel "an open three" is better than playing fundamental ball... it's not! Everyone knows that over time (yes over time of a game & season) YOUR TEAM HAS A GREATER SHOT OR HIGHER % OF SCORING CLOSER TO THE BASKET. The "open 3" will be there IF you exploit the low post. As homie mentioned earlier...

    where is the plan B when these "open" shots aren't working? Can we guess why it makes more sense to exploit the interior w/ a beast like Amare? Here's why... closer shots have a higher % of going in, of being rebounded & put back, and of course DRAWING FOULS & DOUBLE TEAMS. This is the game. What MDA is stressing is what should be done at certain intervals but not over the course of the game. PERIOD. CLOSER CONTESTED SHOTS are better over the long run than "open three attempts". Who doesn't know this?

    And finally here is all you have to ask yourself... "Is MDA getting the best out of our players, yes or no"?

    We keep this "like Nash" sh*t going, and the players excuse going... after a while you have to say.. you know what, we can't keep getting new players til they're perfect for this imperfect system. I'll wait, but i've seen what I needed (yea I watched). With these "better than last yr" players, who aren't worried about where they'll be, I see the imperfections in this system and coaching philosophy... and the fact we play D actually makes it MORE obvious. Hello!

  4. #34
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,463
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    Excellent points...

  5. #35
    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,529
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Originally Posted by Red
    On Spacing... MDA was the one who said it was poor, that wasn't my sole opinion in was a FACT that MDA pointed out.

    On the system & 3's...
    Trill you keep mentioning "open Three's or shots"... all I can say is this is actually the issue now isn't it? You & MDA seem to feel "an open three" is better than playing fundamental ball... it's not! Everyone knows that over time (yes over time of a game & season) YOUR TEAM HAS A GREATER SHOT OR HIGHER % OF SCORING CLOSER TO THE BASKET. The "open 3" will be there IF you exploit the low post. As homie mentioned earlier...

    where is the plan B when these "open" shots aren't working? Can we guess why it makes more sense to exploit the interior w/ a beast like Amare? Here's why... closer shots have a higher % of going in, of being rebounded & put back, and of course DRAWING FOULS & DOUBLE TEAMS. This is the game. What MDA is stressing is what should be done at certain intervals but not over the course of the game. PERIOD. CLOSER CONTESTED SHOTS are better over the long run than "open three attempts". Who doesn't know this?

    And finally here is all you have to ask yourself... "Is MDA getting the best out of our players, yes or no"?

    We keep this "like Nash" sh*t going, and the players excuse going... after a while you have to say.. you know what, we can't keep getting new players til they're perfect for this imperfect system. I'll wait, but i've seen what I needed (yea I watched). With these "better than last yr" players, who aren't worried about where they'll be, I see the imperfections in this system and coaching philosophy... and the fact we play D actually makes it MORE obvious. Hello!
    That is all i'm trying to say. It really is obvious, IF you know basketball.

  6. #36
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Dark side of the Moon
    Posts
    2,743
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Dude that was an ENTIRELY different team. If this current team wins 50 with this coach playing this system I'll wash your car for you for the entire summer of 2011. It aint happening.
    My point is that system can will produce desirable results. Further, where and how Amre is getting his touches is not a coaching issue but a PG issue. Plain and simple. If it were a coaching issue then Amare would have had the same struggles with the Suns.

  7. #37
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,157
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    I made peace with the fact this team was going to stink back in the summer when we didn't get LJ. I made all these points back during the summer, got into it with TRILL, got called all out my name and everything else. Me I am not surprised at all how this team is playing. We lost 60% of our scoring and rebounding when we got rid of Lee/Harrington, and when I asked how we were replacing that the answer was: ohhh Gallo, ohhhh AR....., oooh STAT....

    I was actually happy the way the team started out almost beating Portland and spanking the Bulls.

    Now the team has fallen back to reality. We traded production for potential and so this is where we are. We traded one third tier PG(duhon) for another (felton), an all-star(lee) for the end of a bad teams bench(turiaf and co), and picked up 1a "superstar" from Phoenix. Not exactly a recipe for winning in a much improved East.

    BTW, you wonder why AMARE is shooting so far away from the rim?? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HOF PG NASH BREAKING DOWN THE DEFENSE AND CREATING EASY BUCKETS IN THE LANE. HELLO. I told y'all that during the off-season as well, that AMARE wouldn't be nearly as effective without NASH(see stockton/malone).

    At this point, IT IS WHAT IT IS. This is a fun, young, athletic team to watch. THATS ABOUT IT. If they look down at thier jerseys and show a little KNICK pride, they may sneak into the playoffs. Forget about that 6th seed stuff OK. If not, they will struggle to win as many games as last year. At this point, just try to enjoy the season and hopefully David Lo-Pan(Walsh) can produce another big-free agent (Melo,CP3) moving forward. We have a decent foundation, but definatly far from being competetive.

    And don't expect a leopard to change his spots either(D'ant). Mike loves that international style of play: no defense, no interior game, bigs camping outside and shooting doornobs, players whos names we can't pronounce.

    Maybe this team will "gel", maybe not. But like I told y'all during the off-season: ANOTHER REBUILDING YEAR.

  8. #38
    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,529
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    The system works if players can actually start hitting shots because it allows the court to be spread and Amare not to be doubled and tripled every time he gets the ball. Again, this is execution and consistency that SHOULD get better as the players gel.
    Wrong. This is exactly what myself and others are trying to point out. You can't be consistently successful with an offense that works ONLY if you hit a high % of long range 3pt shots. Only the best shooters can run a % of 45% and over for a whole season and its probably very few of them (I'll let u look that one up). This offense is either hit or miss. There's no middle ground for success.

    If players aren't hitting shots on a particular night then the system should be adjusted don't you think? Hitting 3s has never been consistent with most players, this is proven by the way we categorize a good 3pt shooter (north of 35%) and a great one (north of 40%). However, when talking about overall FG%, players can easily hit the 40%-50% mark because the shots get easier closer to the basket.

    Now do you understand?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    __________________

  9. #39
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,308
    Rep Power
    15

    Default If I may add...

    I know I'm ranting but...

    It seems we have narrowed down a few issues here:

    1. This system preaches Quantity over Quality. You should work for QUALITY shots, not the other way around.

    2. Quality shots means running plays to get the ball in a players hands where HE is comfy with. This system dictates the player (Like D Lee did) adjust to it, rather than has options to adjust to the players talent. And everyone is trying to change their games for it.

    3. Trill keeps bringing up the distant past, we're bringing up the RECENT past.. there's a difference if only for the assumption that MAYBE THE LEAGUE HAS FIGURED THIS SYSTEM OUT AND CAUGHT UP TO IT. ever consider that?

    4. We can't really have a go to guy, b/c this system doesn't have designs for "go to players.

    5. Which I for one am leary about adding a Melo to b/c if u peep the system, where will he fit in? What difference will he make? What will he be camped out beyond the arc and hit .ore jumpers than Gallo? So what, u don't pay max $ for that.

    6. Again I say this, is MDA getting the best out of his players?

    7. Are we being beaten b/c of flaws in coaching like Dallas or beating ourselves like the Giants? There's a difference.

    8. Would we be saying these things IF Phil Jackson was our coach? Yea we might lose.. but would we be saying these things? Like why are we shooting so many outside shots? Like why aren't we driving or why can't we run the most basic play the P&R? I don't think so. Its the system that's flawed.

    Finally, on perpetual motion... yea I know movement is essential, but DESIGN is just as important. Movement to hoist shots by anyone and not a knock down shooter is useless as u can see. Defense is useless without an offensive system designed to the players strengths. Its a system issue, not a player issue. I've seen it work PERFECTLY and still notice its short-comings.

    The entire league has noticed this too. Why do u think we have so many OPEN SHOTS?

  10. #40
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Dark side of the Moon
    Posts
    2,743
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    On Spacing... MDA was the one who said it was poor, that wasn't my sole opinion in was a FACT that MDA pointed out.
    Maybe he was speaking about a specific stretch in a game because I use my eyes and brain to make my determination. What I see is a team with good ball movement and good spacing that can't hit open shots whether from 3 or not.

    On the system & 3's...
    Trill you keep mentioning "open Three's or shots"... all I can say is this is actually the issue now isn't it? You & MDA seem to feel "an open three" is better than playing fundamental ball... it's not! Everyone knows that over time (yes over time of a game & season) YOUR TEAM HAS A GREATER SHOT OR HIGHER % OF SCORING CLOSER TO THE BASKET. The "open 3" will be there IF you exploit the low post. As homie mentioned earlier...
    Uhm, any coach will tell there player to take an open shot. Any system will look like **** when it's players can't hit open shots...period. Yes, when they are bricking they should take it to the hole more but that is common sense that the player is responsible for. Every player thinks the next shot is going in.I guess Pat Riley can't coach evidenced by John Starks and his 1 for a million shooting that playoff game back in the day.

    where is the plan B when these "open" shots aren't working? Can we guess why it makes more sense to exploit the interior w/ a beast like Amare? Here's why... closer shots have a higher % of going in, of being rebounded & put back, and of course DRAWING FOULS & DOUBLE TEAMS. This is the game. What MDA is stressing is what should be done at certain intervals but not over the course of the game. PERIOD. CLOSER CONTESTED SHOTS are better over the long run than "open three attempts". Who doesn't know this?
    Plan B is the 3 point shot. Plan A is letting Amare score so you have it bass akwards. The problem is that Fleton and AMre have not developed that two man game yet so Amare gets doubled and turns it over or passes it out to an open shooter. Again, any coach will tell an NBA caliber player to take the open shot.


    Listen, its easy to pick out flaws in anyone's system or any game when the team loses. D'ant is far from perfect and yes there is room for improvment. I am not arguing that D'ant or his system is GOAT and we should keep him no matter what. What I am advocating for is time to see how this new roster filled with young players develops. I am also trying to seperate the fair critisms of D'ant and his system form that of the generic talking points the biased national media has developed.

    P.S. Kind of ironic that no one is really concentrating on D'ant and defense anymore save a few random comments. Could it be that the talking points many of you were regurgitating over the last year were wrong and it was indeed the players and not the coach that were responsible for the lack of D?

  11. #41
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Dark side of the Moon
    Posts
    2,743
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    I made peace with the fact this team was going to stink back in the summer when we didn't get LJ. I made all these points back during the summer, got into it with TRILL, got called all out my name and everything else. Me I am not surprised at all how this team is playing. We lost 60% of our scoring and rebounding when we got rid of Lee/Harrington, and when I asked how we were replacing that the answer was: ohhh Gallo, ohhhh AR....., oooh STAT....

    I was actually happy the way the team started out almost beating Portland and spanking the Bulls.

    Now the team has fallen back to reality. We traded production for potential and so this is where we are. We traded one third tier PG(duhon) for another (felton), an all-star(lee) for the end of a bad teams bench(turiaf and co), and picked up 1a "superstar" from Phoenix. Not exactly a recipe for winning in a much improved East.

    BTW, you wonder why AMARE is shooting so far away from the rim?? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HOF PG NASH BREAKING DOWN THE DEFENSE AND CREATING EASY BUCKETS IN THE LANE. HELLO. I told y'all that during the off-season as well, that AMARE wouldn't be nearly as effective without NASH(see stockton/malone).

    At this point, IT IS WHAT IT IS. This is a fun, young, athletic team to watch. THATS ABOUT IT. If they look down at thier jerseys and show a little KNICK pride, they may sneak into the playoffs. Forget about that 6th seed stuff OK. If not, they will struggle to win as many games as last year. At this point, just try to enjoy the season and hopefully David Lo-Pan(Walsh) can produce another big-free agent (Melo,CP3) moving forward. We have a decent foundation, but definatly far from being competetive.

    And don't expect a leopard to change his spots either(D'ant). Mike loves that international style of play: no defense, no interior game, bigs camping outside and shooting doornobs, players whos names we can't pronounce.

    Maybe this team will "gel", maybe not. But like I told y'all during the off-season: ANOTHER REBUILDING YEAR.
    You know this is not the NFL right? 8 games is no where near long enough to draw any conclusions. Is Miami a 500 team? Are the Lakers going to win 70? Is New Orleans going to go undefeated?

    I know you hope and pray the Knicks do bad just to scream I told you so evidenced by you basically saying..."I told you so" after 8 games. SMFH at these haters.

  12. #42
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Dark side of the Moon
    Posts
    2,743
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    Wrong. This is exactly what myself and others are trying to point out. You can't be consistently successful with an offense that works ONLY if you hit a high % of long range 3pt shots. Only the best shooters can run a % of 45% and over for a whole season and its probably very few of them (I'll let u look that one up). This offense is either hit or miss. There's no middle ground for success.

    If players aren't hitting shots on a particular night then the system should be adjusted don't you think? Hitting 3s has never been consistent with most players, this is proven by the way we categorize a good 3pt shooter (north of 35%) and a great one (north of 40%). However, when talking about overall FG%, players can easily hit the 40%-50% mark because the shots get easier closer to the basket.

    Now do you understand?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    __________________
    Really? SO the Suns weren't consistently successful? I'd say 4 straight 50+ win seasons, back to back 60+ win seasons and two appearances in the Western Conference finals is pretty damn consistent.


    Further SSOL is not about just 3 pointers...it's about taking quick open shots and attacking not giving the defense time to set up. Any coach in any system is going to tell their shooters to take the open shot...period!

  13. #43
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,308
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Ok Trill name the terms:

    If by (when), if our record is (what) you'll be convinced its a system flaw. I'll abide by that.

    Like if by the trade deadline if we aren't at least .500 he should go... or something like that. Name the terms, and i'll agree to disagree for now.

    And everyone knew we lacked defense cause D Lee (the player) couldn't play it. That's why he wasn't valued. What we didn't want to admit was the offensive strategy is too flawed and inconsistent to be complimented by good D.

  14. #44
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,157
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    You know this is not the NFL right? 8 games is no where near long enough to draw any conclusions. Is Miami a 500 team? Are the Lakers going to win 70? Is New Orleans going to go undefeated?

    I know you hope and pray the Knicks do bad just to scream I told you so evidenced by you basically saying..."I told you so" after 8 games. SMFH at these haters.
    Thanks for the math lesson TRILL. Like we tell Cub fans every year: YOU CAN'T WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP IN APRIL, BUT YOU SURE CAN LOSE ONE. How many games do you wanna spot an improved EAST???

  15. #45
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,157
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    Originally Posted by Red
    Ok Trill name the terms:

    If by (when), if our record is (what) you'll be convinced its a system flaw. I'll abide by that.

    Like if by the trade deadline if we aren't at least .500 he should go... or something like that. Name the terms, and i'll agree to disagree for now.

    And everyone knew we lacked defense cause D Lee (the player) couldn't play it. That's why he wasn't valued. What we didn't want to admit was the offensive strategy is too flawed and inconsistent to be complimented by good D.
    He won't do it RED because I tried to bet him during the offseason and was called a hater. Alot of HOT-AIR, but won't put his money where his mouth is. And I thought I lived in the WINDY CITY...

Similar Threads

  1. So who is more likely to go?
    By Paul1355 in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Jan 21, 2009, 13:37
  2. Replies: 31
    Last Post: Dec 02, 2008, 11:39
  3. 11/22 Knicks Vs. Wizards 7:30 PM EST
    By TunerAddict in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: Nov 24, 2008, 21:32

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •