The Verdict is in...

1. Please everyone that want to be right seeing Knicks loose go away from this forum. You aren't fans.
2. People that hate players without reasons after 8 games go away same. This is one of the reason because stars don't want to play in NY. you make one bad match and someone tell you to go in D-League.
My opinion:
Not only in basketball, also in other sports. you can find some good coaches that play a particular system as D'Antoni. When they find rights players they make good otherwise they fail. This isn't coaching in my opinion. Why should a franchise take only a particular type of player? And then, to win in NBA you have no much choice on players, you have to improve yours and find the particular system to use the capability of your players. If Chandler shot at 3 more then Ray Allen does this means that we have a problems. I'm sorry. I like D'Ant as person; he is nice but he isn't a coach winner

nyk_nyk said:

Ok I agree with most of the things you said, but can you answer a few questions:

Do you really think we are stopping other teams? Sure we get more blocks but on-ball and transition defense is not much better.

Late in the 4th qtr in a close game, do you honestly believe SSOL works to our advantage? Do you think Speeding things up at that point when possessions are extremely valuable is good?

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I honestly think our defense has exceeded my expectations. Of course when we lose everything looks like crap...thats why we lose! But yes, they are doubling, pressing, switching, harassing and most importantly communicating on the defensive end. Are they an elite defensive team? No, certainly not but their defense is very underrated and I think that is a product of the rap D'ants system has gotten from the national media.


Commentators look at high scores and conclude that the Suns were poor at defense ignoring that each team had more looks because of the pace hence the inflated scores. When it counted they played very good defense evidenced by the amount of wins. I am not going to say we are going to have very good defense and that we are not going to give up a ton of points in this system but I do think the mixture of hopefully potent offense combined with our improved defense is going to get us to the playoffs.

jimkcchief88 said:

Get to watch the game tonight. Go Knicks!!!

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That was a quote from Jimqueef the Style Thief in the Chicago Bulls game thread. The guy doesn't even watch games yet thinks he can talk about anything with authority! Dude has watched one game this season and is attempting to sound knowledgeable!

JimmyQueef, PM me you bank account and routing number and I'll pay for the NBA package so you can actually know what the eff you are talking about!

TR1LL10N said:

My point is that system can will produce desirable results. Further, where and how Amre is getting his touches is not a coaching issue but a PG issue. Plain and simple. If it were a coaching issue then Amare would have had the same struggles with the Suns.

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I want to repost this because I dont think you saw my point. If you did and didnt answer my bad...

Right, so it's all on the coach and has nothing to do with the players. :thumbsup: Thanks for proving who lives in reality and who doesn't! You do know that D'ant does not have a joystick and is not controlling what his players do each and every minute? You do know he does not freeze time, walk on to the court and whisper to CHandler to launch a three from 4 feet beyond the arc with 18 seconds left on the shotclock and a defender in his face..right?

You dont get it. The players play like the coach WANTS THEM TO. If the players deviated from his style then you could put it on the players. Let me give you a simple analogy so that maybe you can understand me a bit better.

Put Rondo on the Knicks. A notoriously bad shooter, but excellent at just about anything else you ask him to do on the floor. Instead of him playing to his strengths, which is penetrating and getting easy baskets for him self and his teammates. In this system he'd be hoisting up 3-4 threes a game. He'd be picking and rolling constantly instead of creating. Not winning basketball, no matter how you slice it. So in essence you couldnt put the blame on Rondo. Now do you understand?

Clyde & The Pearl said:

I want to repost this because I dont think you saw my point. If you did and didnt answer my bad...

Right, so it's all on the coach and has nothing to do with the players. :thumbsup: Thanks for proving who lives in reality and who doesn't! You do know that D'ant does not have a joystick and is not controlling what his players do each and every minute? You do know he does not freeze time, walk on to the court and whisper to CHandler to launch a three from 4 feet beyond the arc with 18 seconds left on the shotclock and a defender in his face..right?

You dont get it. The players play like the coach WANTS THEM TO. If the players deviated from his style then you could put it on the players. Let me give you a simple analogy so that maybe you can understand me a bit better.

Put Rondo on the Knicks. A notoriously bad shooter, but excellent at just about anything else you ask him to do on the floor. Instead of him playing to his strengths, which is penetrating and getting easy baskets for him self and his teammates. In this system he'd be hoisting up 3-4 threes a game. He'd be picking and rolling constantly instead of creating. Not winning basketball, no matter how you slice it. So in essence you couldnt put the blame on Rondo. Now do you understand?

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It's clear you don't know what you are talking about. SSOL does not have PG's chucking shots and Nash constantly penetrated. Look, you are new and I don't want to beef but comments like that and comments that Amare is a post up player clearly show you have not yet accumulated the knowledge to debate this issue in a serious way.

BTW, the pick and roll is a traditional way that a PG creates for his teammates...

TR1LL10N said:

I honestly think our defense has exceeded my expectations. Of course when we lose everything looks like crap...thats why we lose! But yes, they are doubling, pressing, switching, harassing and most importantly communicating on the defensive end. Are they an elite defensive team? No, certainly not but their defense is very underrated and I think that is a product of the rap D'ants system has gotten from the national media.


Commentators look at high scores and conclude that the Suns were poor at defense ignoring that each team had more looks because of the pace hence the inflated scores. When it counted they played very good defense evidenced by the amount of wins. I am not going to say we are going to have very good defense and that we are not going to give up a ton of points in this system but I do think the mixture of hopefully potent offense combined with our improved defense is going to get us to the playoffs.

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No answer for my 2nd question?

TR1LL10N said:

It's clear you don't know what you are talking about. SSOL does not have PG's chucking shots and Nash constantly penetrated. Look, you are new and I don't want to beef but comments like that and comments that Amare is a post up player clearly show you have not yet accumulated the knowledge to debate this issue in a serious way.

BTW, the pick and roll is a traditional way that a PG creates for his teammates...

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You really cant be this dumb. Its not the POSITION I'm concerned about when it comes to hoisting up threes its the PLAYER. The entire team shoots three's like they're all good three point shooters. They arent.

Amare isnt a post up player on THIS TEAM. His shooting % is down 10% so far compared to last year. Know why? Because he's on the perimeter shooting JUMPSHOTS.

Me being new to this forum has nothing to do with my UNDERSTANDING basic basketball concepts. Heck you've been here for four years and dont understand squat these guys are trying to tell you.

I dont want any beef either. I was just trying to educate you a bit. But that seems like a pipe dream. I'll let you carry on with your biased, turn a blind eye to the facts opinions and we'll just have to agree to go our separate ways.

nyk_nyk said:

No answer for my 2nd question?

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What question?

Clyde & The Pearl said:

You really cant be this dumb. Its not the POSITION I'm concerned about when it comes to hoisting up threes its the PLAYER. The entire team shoots three's like they're all good three point shooters. They arent.

Amare isnt a post up player on THIS TEAM. His shooting % is down 10% so far compared to last year. Know why? Because he's on the perimeter shooting JUMPSHOTS.

Me being new to this forum has nothing to do with my UNDERSTANDING basic basketball concepts. Heck you've been here for four years and dont understand squat these guys are trying to tell you.

I dont want any beef either. I was just trying to educate you a bit. But that seems like a pipe dream. I'll let you carry on with your biased, turn a blind eye to the facts opinions and we'll just have to agree to go our separate ways.

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Sorry dude but you made up a hypothetical about Rondo which did not make any sense as you tried asserting he would be chucking up 3's just because he is in this system.

You are right, you being new has nothing to do with your understanding and I never claimed it did. I was mentioning about you being new since I did not want to start a fight with you or give off an impression like I'm a dick. Your lack of understanding about our system, Amare's game and the role of the PG in this system is what tells me you have yet to accumulate the knowledge to have a real debate on this topic. I'm not trying to offend you but I can't really debate someone who has these wild misconceptions about the topic at hand. It would be too tiring to first explain the nuances just to bring you up to a point where we could have a debate.

Oh and no, Amare is not a post up player period. It has nothing to do with being on the Knicks. He simply is not a post up player ever in his career. Can he occasionally post? Sure. Could he develop that game? Maybe. That said, he is a face the basket mid range jumper and finisher.

His FG% is down and he is talking more jumpshots but that is not a design of the system or coach it is a design of not having a PG giving him the ball in the right spots. Again, if it was the system or coach then he would have had the same exact issues under D'ant his first go round. Please at least try to grasp this simple fact. If you are going to learn one thing from this thread it should be this since it's such a fundamental concept and the heart of our struggles. If Amare and Felton could come close to Amare/Nash this team would be kicking ass.

Dude...if we don't have the proper personnel to run the system as effectively as it was run in Phoenix then you change the god damn system in training camp. We had all of the voluntary workouts, training camp, and preseason to figure out that we "don't have the PG to get Amar'e the ball in the right spots."

So adapt to what you have. That's simply a part of being a human being. Humans can adapt to situations and react accordingly, animals just have their instincts. If what D'Antoni wants to do requires a different roster then go back to basketball 101...move your body and move the ball. Continuing to swing the ball around the perimeter for a 3-pointer when you're 5/22 from 3 is borderline insane. The definition of insanity is repeating the same action but expecting different results.

It's up to the coach to diagnose the situation, formulate a plan, and express that plan to the team in a way they can easily grasp so they can execute it. Shooting 3s wire to wire isn't much of a plan. The fact that you're arguing that we need Felton/Amar'e to be Nash/Amar'e is the problem. You can't expect anyone to replicate what a sure fire future Hall of Famers does....so compensate for the deficiencies and move forward...that is if you're half the coach you're supposed to be. Being stubborn and incompetent gets you no where, getting the most out of what you have gets you to the top.

nuckles2k2 said:

Dude...if we don't have the proper personnel to run the system as effectively as it was run in Phoenix then you change the god damn system in training camp. We had all of the voluntary workouts, training camp, and preseason to figure out that we "don't have the PG to get Amar'e the ball in the right spots."

So adapt to what you have. That's simply a part of being a human being. Humans can adapt to situations and react accordingly, animals just have their instincts. If what D'Antoni wants to do requires a different roster then go back to basketball 101...move your body and move the ball. Continuing to swing the ball around the perimeter for a 3-pointer when you're 5/22 from 3 is borderline insane. The definition of insanity is repeating the same action but expecting different results.

It's up to the coach to diagnose the situation, formulate a plan, and express that plan to the team in a way they can easily grasp so they can execute it. Shooting 3s wire to wire isn't much of a plan. The fact that you're arguing that we need Felton/Amar'e to be Nash/Amar'e is the problem. You can't expect anyone to replicate what a sure fire future Hall of Famers does....so compensate for the deficiencies and move forward...that is if you're half the coach you're supposed to be. Being stubborn and incompetent gets you no where, getting the most out of what you have gets you to the top.

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No one is saying that we need Felton to be Nash nor could he ever be as good as Nash. That said, he could get Amare the ball in a better place and that has nothing to do with the 3 pointer or our system in general. That is directly tied to Amare's productivity and success. If Amare is going to be dominate and earn his paycheck Felton is going to have to do a better job getting him the ball...period. Simmer down dude and read more carefully.

TR1LL10N said:

Sorry dude but you made up a hypothetical about Rondo which did not make any sense as you tried asserting he would be chucking up 3's just because he is in this system.

You are right, you being new has nothing to do with your understanding and I never claimed it did. I was mentioning about you being new since I did not want to start a fight with you or give off an impression like I'm a dick. Your lack of understanding about our system, Amare's game and the role of the PG in this system is what tells me you have yet to accumulate the knowledge to have a real debate on this topic. I'm not trying to offend you but I can't really debate someone who has these wild misconceptions about the topic at hand. It would be too tiring to first explain the nuances just to bring you up to a point where we could have a debate.

Oh and no, Amare is not a post up player period. It has nothing to do with being on the Knicks. He simply is not a post up player ever in his career. Can he occasionally post? Sure. Could he develop that game? Maybe. That said, he is a face the basket mid range jumper and finisher.

His FG% is down and he is talking more jumpshots but that is not a design of the system or coach it is a design of not having a PG giving him the ball in the right spots. Again, if it was the system or coach then he would have had the same exact issues under D'ant his first go round. Please at least try to grasp this simple fact. If you are going to learn one thing from this thread it should be this since it's such a fundamental concept and the heart of our struggles. If Amare and Felton could come close to Amare/Nash this team would be kicking ass.

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Sorry dude but you made up a hypothetical about Rondo which did not make any sense as you tried asserting he would be chucking up 3's just because he is in this system.

Now you're beginning to understand. That is exactly my contention. He'd be shooting 3's because thats what the coach wants. Everybody on the team shoots three's like they're good at it. AR, Chandler, Amare they all shoot them with NO HESITATION. This is a FACT...

You are right, you being new has nothing to do with your understanding and I never claimed it did. I was mentioning about you being new since I did not want to start a fight with you or give off an impression like I'm a dick. Your lack of understanding about our system, Amare's game and the role of the PG in this system is what tells me you have yet to accumulate the knowledge to have a real debate on this topic.

Our system is predicated on getting OPEN JUMP SHOTS. Preferably 3's. Tell me I'm wrong. Amare's game is as a finisher and a POST PLAYER. STAT just really developed a SEMI-CONSISTENT jump shot in the last 1-2 years. WHAT exactly was he doing before this? POSTING UP. I think your confusion is that he has to be a back to the basket ball player to post. THIS ISNT THE CASE. He received the ball in the post when he was with the Suns at which point he turned and faced the basket and defender. One, Two dribbles he was at the rim.

Oh and no, Amare is not a post up player period. It has nothing to do with being on the Knicks. He simply is not a post up player ever in his career. Can he occasionally post? Sure. Could he develop that game? Maybe. That said, he is a face the basket mid range jumper and finisher.

Its so sad that you really dont know the history of the player you say you know so well. Amare never ever took this many jump shots per game in his career. Watch a game from the Lakers/Suns playoff series from last year. Watch how many times he posted up.

His FG% is down and he is talking more jumpshots but that is not a design of the system or coach it is a design of not having a PG giving him the ball in the right spots.

So if the point guard cant run the system properly wouldnt you think its time to try something different? Seems we had the same problems with Duhon. He's now gone. Why not just try to create a system that utilizes the current players on the teams STRENGTHS?

The "Verdict is in"??? Yea 8 games into the season.. Gimme a friggin break!:teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::smokin:

ronoranina said:

The "Verdict is in"??? Yea 8 games into the season.. Gimme a friggin break!:teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::smokin:

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we suck bro, we lose leads every game and we always lose them when we settle for jump shots instead of driving to the hoop...its a consistent pattern of stupidity which is coming straight from the coaching staff...we are doomed without Melo

Paul1355 said:

we suck bro, we lose leads every game and we always lose them when we settle for jump shots instead of driving to the hoop...its a consistent pattern of stupidity which is coming straight from the coaching staff...we are doomed without Melo

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Shit...at this rate we're doomed even with Melo.

Paul1355 said:

we suck bro, we lose leads every game and we always lose them when we settle for jump shots instead of driving to the hoop...its a consistent pattern of stupidity which is coming straight from the coaching staff...we are doomed without Melo

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yea we suck right now can't argue w that. but did you really expect the team to play well right off?? i kno you're not that naive... right?

there are too many new moving parts here.. time and patience is needed.

give it 15- 20 games..

ronoranina said:

yea we suck right now can't argue w that. but did you really expect the team to play well right off?? i kno you're not that naive... right?

there are too many new moving parts here.. time and patience is needed.

give it 15- 20 games..

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I expected loses of course, but not to the T Wolves or the 76ers, these teams suck plain and simple, they will not make the playoffs this year and we got embarrassed to both of them in horrible fashions.

Its not the record that bothers me, we can be 0-9 but if we played hard all 9 games I would be content. We are a strong 3-2 with a dreadful 0-4 because the past 4 games we completely took a 180 and started playing the same Mike D basketball we all saw the past two seasons.

Its how we lose bro, how we lose.

I am seeing this pattern never changing and now I know why the Suns got rid of Mike D so fast. he sucks. absolutely horrible.

Paul1355 said:

I expected loses of course, but not to the T Wolves or the 76ers, these teams suck plain and simple, they will not make the playoffs this year and we got embarrassed to both of them in horrible fashions.

Its not the record that bothers me, we can be 0-9 but if we played hard all 9 games I would be content. We are a strong 3-2 with a dreadful 0-4 because the past 4 games we completely took a 180 and started playing the same Mike D basketball we all saw the past two seasons.

Its how we lose bro, how we lose.

I am seeing this pattern never changing and now I know why the Suns got rid of Mike D so fast. he sucks. absolutely horrible.

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no, he left them because steve kerr is a dickhead who brought in shaq and wanted them to play a whole different style. now kerr is out and the suns are back playing the same way and winning. why is that?? umm maybe because the system works.. wow what a novel concept.

just maybe, maybe if these asshole players of ours come together, we can get somewhere. the coach is not the problem. he's not making the passes, the decisions. he's not taking the shots. he knows what he's doing!! these players have to get it and get on the same F-ing page..

ronoranina said:

no, he left them because steve kerr is a dickhead who brought in shaq and wanted them to play a whole different style. now kerr is out and the suns are back playing the same way and winning. why is that?? umm maybe because the system works.. wow what a novel concept.

just maybe, maybe if these asshole players of ours come together, we can get somewhere. the coach is not the problem. he's not making the passes, the decisions. he's not taking the shots. he knows what he's doing!! these players have to get it and get on the same F-ing page..

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no they are winning because of Steve Nash and because the "style" is actually now being run by Alvin Gentry who actually teaches defense were Mike D doesn't since my proof is Amare saying that Mike D never spoke about Defense when he was in Phoenix and I doubt he emphasizes it now since we see th same nonesense.

Did Mike D make Steve Nash or did Nash make Mike D?

I think we are seeing that Nash is the one who really vaulted Mike D into the spotlight.

Back to the present, you can't ignore how we are losing games and keep giving mike d passes.

TR1LL10N said:

I'm not going down the whole list but I will mention a few important points:

We are the 4th youngest team

We play 2 rookies in our starting lineup

85% of our team is new

If you factor those points into your assessment of our team this early in the season it does put our 3-5 record in perspective. Has D'ant been perfect? No. Have we shown inconsistencies? Yes. But it is early in the season with a new group of young ass players. I think we need to give it some time before we can say "the verdict is in".

I will be happy to see D'ant go if we are still playing this inconsistent in 40 games.

P.S. You ask about Doc Rivers but he had a horrible record until the Big Three were assembled. Does D'ant have anything close to a big 3? Nope.

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^^Good post man. O.P. thread is TL;DR. Anyway people seem to get this knee jerk reaction everytime we lose a game. We need to relax. It is not as if we were a team last year who was about to make the playoffs so our progression is going to be a slow one. For anyone who knows anything about basketball knows chemistry and knowing the man next to you and how he plays is essential.

Look at the Lakers. They have players who know what their roles are and have been the surprise if you will because of all the hype in South Beach about them cleaning the table with everyone. Well the Lakers look pretty primed and I guess it is because the players who start have been together for some time now.