We're an efficient defensive team.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor/order/true

We're 3rd in pace factor(how much as an uptempo/fastbreak team we are)

But we're 10th in defensive efficiency
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false

Pretty impressive.

Douglas (Man defense/Steals)
Fields (Man to man defense)
Gallo (Man to Man D, Help D)
Chandler (Man defense/Help Defense/Post Defense)
Turiaf (Man defense/Post defense/shotblocking)

Felton, Walker, Randolph can put in work also.

We got a lot of defensive potential.

Thats the ONLY argument to why I would move on from D'Antoni.

If theres a defensive coach out there that can make our guys play to full defensive potential then we're good money.

Defense creates offense.
Alot of fastbreak opportunities can be made off defensive plays, so the offense won't be a concern.

Defense is our best chance of winning anyway. We can't outscore teams like the Lakers, Heat, Celtics, Rockets, Magic, Hornets, Hawks etc.

They say there are lies and there are statistics, numbers look good but bottom line is what counts and right now I think we're giving up 4 more points than we're scoring. Giving up over 105 a game and scoring 101.

D is where we have to hang out hat, look at NO, basically the same roster as last year but tearing it up by playing D. The rookie coach Monty Williams players say all they do is practice D and they go into a game with the mindset that the other team will not score more than 100. The Hornets are keeping teams below 90 so far, thats going to win you a lot of games.

Only way the Knicks are ever going to get a D mindset is if they fire D'Ants and bring JVG back. Heard a guy screamed at Dolan on Sunday to bring him back, that's the next guy I want coaching this team if we can talk him into getting off the beach in Houston and coming back to NY where he belongs.

What i thought once we got Anthony Randolph. He's not gonna develop offensively under D'Antoni tho he has stupid athleticism because he has low Basketball IQ and D'Antonis system is too loose. I also believe it wouldn't matter who coached, he will never be a consistent offensive threat.

That said, He has all the tools to be a premier Defensive player in the league. JVG would be a great coach. We would win a lot of grinder type games with him i think.

tiger0330 said:

They say there are lies and there are statistics, numbers look good but bottom line is what counts and right now I think we're giving up 4 more points than we're scoring. Giving up over 105 a game and scoring 101.

D is where we have to hang out hat, look at NO, basically the same roster as last year but tearing it up by playing D. The rookie coach Monty Williams players say all they do is practice D and they go into a game with the mindset that the other team will not score more than 100. The Hornets are keeping teams below 90 so far, thats going to win you a lot of games.

Only way the Knicks are ever going to get a D mindset is if they fire D'Ants and bring JVG back. Heard a guy screamed at Dolan on Sunday to bring him back, that's the next guy I want coaching this team if we can talk him into getting off the beach in Houston and coming back to NY where he belongs.

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Rep point here for doing the math for the slow and/or stupid. Knicks scoring 101.8 and GIVING UP 105.2. Hermanism fits here: "YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME."

tiger0330 said:

They say there are lies and there are statistics, numbers look good but bottom line is what counts and right now I think we're giving up 4 more points than we're scoring. Giving up over 105 a game and scoring 101.

D is where we have to hang out hat, look at NO, basically the same roster as last year but tearing it up by playing D. The rookie coach Monty Williams players say all they do is practice D and they go into a game with the mindset that the other team will not score more than 100. The Hornets are keeping teams below 90 so far, thats going to win you a lot of games.

Only way the Knicks are ever going to get a D mindset is if they fire D'Ants and bring JVG back. Heard a guy screamed at Dolan on Sunday to bring him back, that's the next guy I want coaching this team if we can talk him into getting off the beach in Houston and coming back to NY where he belongs.

Click to expand...

But we have the tools to be a good defensive team, its just the style we play. Thats why I posted the pace stat.

metrocard said:

But we have the tools to be a good defensive team, its just the style we play. Thats why I posted the pace stat.

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Just so you know METRO: 2+2=4

Tiger is right. We can't consider ourselves a good defensive team if the teams we play average more ppg than us. Like Jim said, it's simple math.

I Kind of understand where Metro is coming from with those stats. But for arguements sake lets just throw them out for a minute and actually observe the game. The Knicks are blocking more shots, getting more steals. The reason why we are losing is all these retarded 3 point shots that lead to run out fast breaks for the opponent's and a frustrated and stagnant 4th quarter offense. In this instance our offense actually is costing us on the defensive end as every time we rush the ball up and miss an open jumper we get punished by poor floor balance. This obviously does not happen when we score which allows us to get set on defense and where Metro's stats and argument has some merit. I feel if our offense was better executed or even changed to half court deliberate offense our defense would have a chance to get set and allow guys like Douglas and Turiaf to get in position to make plays, this cannot happen when Chandler or Gallo launches an early three which leads to a deep rebound and an instant fast break for the other team. In this one case an improved offensive scheme would theoretically improve our defense. Does any of that make sense?

I was just saying we're an efficient defensive team for a team that gives up 100 points per game.

The potential and tools for defense are here.

We just have to put them into use.

ronoranina said:

Tiger is right. We can't consider ourselves a good defensive team if the teams we play average more ppg than us. Like Jim said, it's simple math.

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Thanks roro and it is simple math. Tonight we scored 118, but gave up 120 and lost. At some point in any game you have to get some stops. That is called defense. Even the village idiot should be able to figure this one out.....

metrocard said:

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor/order/true

We're 3rd in pace factor(how much as an uptempo/fastbreak team we are)

But we're 10th in defensive efficiency
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false

Pretty impressive.

Douglas (Man defense/Steals)
Fields (Man to man defense)
Gallo (Man to Man D, Help D)
Chandler (Man defense/Help Defense/Post Defense)
Turiaf (Man defense/Post defense/shotblocking)

Felton, Walker, Randolph can put in work also.

We got a lot of defensive potential.

Thats the ONLY argument to why I would move on from D'Antoni.

If theres a defensive coach out there that can make our guys play to full defensive potential then we're good money.

Defense creates offense.
Alot of fastbreak opportunities can be made off defensive plays, so the offense won't be a concern.

Defense is our best chance of winning anyway. We can't outscore teams like the Lakers, Heat, Celtics, Rockets, Magic, Hornets, Hawks etc.

Click to expand...

stats dont mean shyt

The way we are losing games is pathetic and we allow too many points in the paint.

Granted without Turiaf we suck even more but he is not the savior for our defense....Mozgov has to step up as well and our team needs a defensive coach!

Our genius offense of bricking threes is overshadowing our 1st place in blocks statistic.

BleedOrange&Blue said:

I Kind of understand where Metro is coming from with those stats. But for arguements sake lets just throw them out for a minute and actually observe the game. The Knicks are blocking more shots, getting more steals. The reason why we are losing is all these retarded 3 point shots that lead to run out fast breaks for the opponent's and a frustrated and stagnant 4th quarter offense. In this instance our offense actually is costing us on the defensive end as every time we rush the ball up and miss an open jumper we get punished by poor floor balance. This obviously does not happen when we score which allows us to get set on defense and where Metro's stats and argument has some merit. I feel if our offense was better executed or even changed to half court deliberate offense our defense would have a chance to get set and allow guys like Douglas and Turiaf to get in position to make plays, this cannot happen when Chandler or Gallo launches an early three which leads to a deep rebound and an instant fast break for the other team. In this one case an improved offensive scheme would theoretically improve our defense. Does any of that make sense?

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Perfectly said.

The biggest problem is our missing shots which lead to easy buckets for the other team. Imagine that half of the 3's we brick lead to an easy score. We take an average of 25 3's per game and hit around 8 of them. That's 17 3's that are bricks, let's estimate that 8 of those 3's turn into easy buckets for the other team. That's 16 points.

Our team does a good job of contesting shots. We're leading the NBA in blocked shots, we're getting steals, we're playing good team defense...what we're NOT doing is playing smart. If we stopped this chucking syndrome that we've got then we'd give up far fewer points per game. But every single time Gallo goes 2-10 from 3, that's a problem.

BleedOrange&Blue said:

I Kind of understand where Metro is coming from with those stats. But for arguements sake lets just throw them out for a minute and actually observe the game.

The Knicks are blocking more shots, getting more steals. The reason why we are losing is all these retarded 3 point shots that lead to run out fast breaks for the opponent's and a frustrated and stagnant 4th quarter offense. In this instance our offense actually is costing us on the defensive end as every time we rush the ball up and miss an open jumper we get punished by poor floor balance. This obviously does not happen when we score which allows us to get set on defense and where Metro's stats and argument has some merit. I feel if our offense was better executed or even changed to half court deliberate offense our defense would have a chance to get set and allow guys like Douglas and Turiaf to get in position to make plays, this cannot happen when Chandler or Gallo launches an early three which leads to a deep rebound and an instant fast break for the other team. In this one case an improved offensive scheme would theoretically improve our defense. Does any of that make sense?

Click to expand...

Perfect sense. Perfect, common, observational sense. Nicely said.

BleedOrange&Blue said:

I Kind of understand where Metro is coming from with those stats. But for arguements sake lets just throw them out for a minute and actually observe the game. The Knicks are blocking more shots, getting more steals. The reason why we are losing is all these retarded 3 point shots that lead to run out fast breaks for the opponent's and a frustrated and stagnant 4th quarter offense. In this instance our offense actually is costing us on the defensive end as every time we rush the ball up and miss an open jumper we get punished by poor floor balance. This obviously does not happen when we score which allows us to get set on defense and where Metro's stats and argument has some merit. I feel if our offense was better executed or even changed to half court deliberate offense our defense would have a chance to get set and allow guys like Douglas and Turiaf to get in position to make plays, this cannot happen when Chandler or Gallo launches an early three which leads to a deep rebound and an instant fast break for the other team. In this one case an improved offensive scheme would theoretically improve our defense. Does any of that make sense?

Click to expand...

If I can I would like to piggyback on this point as well. The other reason throwing up those quick shots kill you is that you AREN'T MAKING THE OTHER TEAM DEFEND YOU FOR THE FULL SHOT CLOCK. SSOL sounds sexy, BUT THAT MEANS THE OTHER TEAM ONLY HAS TO DEFEND YOU FOR 7 SECONDS OR LESS. It takes longer than 7 seconds to break down most NBA defenses. So its like you are "shooting your wad early." You are not giving you offense a chance to breakdown the opposing defense. You aren't getting to the line either because you are not pushing the officials hand to call those "bailout" fouls as the shot clock winds down.

For you baseball fans, I will use an analogy. Block shots and steals are like strikeouts. They are sexy and look good in the box score, but if you are GIVING UP HOME RUNS AND LOSING, it does no good. You are better throwing more pitches out of the strike zone and making the batter chase YOUR PITCH. You might get less strikeouts, but you will also give yourself a better chance to win because you aren't serving up great pitches that can be crushed.

Steal and blocks occur more in team defense or open floor situations than when you are in your base defense. So they are very misleading stats because more than likely you were BEATEN and had to RECOVER when you got that steal or block. On the occasions you can't recover, you are giving up high % shots. And that's another part of the reason why we are giving up more points than we are scoring. We are taking quick, low % shots, while allowing very high % shots because fundamental defensive skills are lacking. So we really too heavily on steal/blocks(strikeouts) to save the day. And thats a product of coaching(or lack thereof) my friends. They say defense can't be coached, you have to have the will. But if your coach doesn't DEMAND any of his players play solid defense, then why would they do it????

Defensively, we have the tools.
and stats do mean something, lets not be ignorant.
Thats all I was saying.

Got the moron talking about baseball now...smh.

Anyone thats watched most the games has seen our defensive potential

Its too bad dantoni wont put his ego aside and hire a defensive specialist....Doc Rivers did it and look where it got bumston

On a side note who actually thinks Hollinger's Stats are worth a $hit? According to his "Stats" the Heat are the #1 team in the league. His PER can be baffling at times and his articles are always pro Lebron, heat anti Kobe. Maybe I am biased but I think this guys work is just garbage. As for Stats in general they are good when you want to review one specific thing but just looking at some of our stats they are kind of useless.

For example: you know who our best 3 point shooter is?


Gallo?
Douglas?
.
..
.
..
.
.
.
..
.
Amare freaking Stoudemire is our best three point shooter shooting lights out at 62.5% (5/8)

BleedOrange&Blue said:

On a side note who actually thinks Hollinger's Stats are worth a $hit? According to his "Stats" the Heat are the #1 team in the league. His PER can be baffling at times and his articles are always pro Lebron, heat anti Kobe. Maybe I am biased but I think this guys work is just garbage. As for Stats in general they are good when you want to review one specific thing but just looking at some of our stats they are kind of useless.

For example: you know who our best 3 point shooter is?


Gallo?
Douglas?
.

.
..
.
Amare freaking Stoudemire is our best three point shooter shooting lights out at 62.5% (5/8)

Click to expand...

You have to take a certain volume of 3's to be even considered as a top gunner in the league. Even on the team. You have to use your common sense, that if someone shoots one freethrow and makes it, and doesnt shoot another one all season, yes their average is 100% but there are only 1/1.

Toons said:

You have to take a certain volume of 3's to be even considered as a top gunner in the league. Even on the team. You have to use your common sense, that if someone shoots one freethrow and makes it, and doesnt shoot another one all season, yes their average is 100% but there are only 1/1.

Click to expand...

I think he's saying this is why stats are (or can be) "worthless". Not that he actually thinks this shows STAT is our best 3pt shooter; which you explained how it'd be a false statistic.

I mean, Hollinger does take shit into account to rectify how mangled statistics can be (so situations like the above scenario aren't allowed to influence his calculations). But it's still a fair point that his calculations are flawed and his methodalogy with stats isnt perfect by a long shot.

He's like a C grade statistician and sports handicapper/math analyst from what I understand. Which isn't terrible, but most of his stuff is far from truth. I think he's pretty accurate on Kobe/Heat, though...Only the latter can get proved through the iron of objectivity tho. And this is one spot I TRULY hope Im proved entirely wrong. (I also love Kobe, fwiw)

yeah but he is trying to discredit the topic of the post. We are first in blocks, 9th in steals....we are playing pretty solid defense. of course we are gonna be giving up more points than the opponent.....we have a losing record. thats common sense. we are 6 n 8, not 8 n 6. if we averaged more points than our opponent, wouldnt that mean we have a winning record?