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Thread: Knicks Reluctant To Part With Fields In Possible Carmelo Deal

  1. #91
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Toons
    felton is outplaying paul right now....we dont have a pg problem dummy....a big 3 of amare felton and paul makes no sense.
    i cant debate with anyone that feels melo is just a scorer.

    melo averages 24 pts 8.5 rebs
    melo is a go to guy
    melo is a closer

    the game on the line i dont go to paul, i go to paul to set up west.
    The more you talk the more u prove to have a deficit of logic..

    First of all, Felton is not out playing Paul. Go look at the STATS. Is Felton averaging double digit assists? Who averages more steals? Shoots higher fg %? 3pt%? The answer is Paul in all of the above categories. That was your first fallacy toons.. You don't know what you're talking about.

    Next obviously we wouldn't keep Felton. He has a 2 yr deal, meaning he has something to prove. To me there are still questions about about whether or not he can handle our O against the best teams. We wouldn't have any question about whether Paul could consistently control the tempo and set guys/ Amare up against the best the league has to offer. I'm not completely sold on Felton, although as I've said I do like him.


    Originally Posted by Toons
    we have a facilitator in felton *******....an upgrade in our current pg will never produce more wins than our sf upgrade.
    No need to call names. You're a very emotional little man Toons. Lay off the estrogen injections my dude..

    Yes we already have a facilitator, but if he was the guy why did Donnie say anybody but Amare can go for Paul even after we'd acquired him?? That would seem to me to mean Felton could go to.

    It's still early. Felton has more to prove. He was one of the main probs in the losses to the Celts and Miami. Paul has nothing to prove to w regards to his playmaking against all comers. You're wrong.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Dec 19, 2010 at 19:33.

  2. #92
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    The numbers aren't that diff tho.

    CP3 is averaging 16.0ppg and Felton is averaging 18.4.

    CP3 is shooting 48% from the field on 134 fields goals made of 284, Felton is shooting 45% on 184 field goals made of 404.

    CP3 is shooting 46% from 3 on 26 of 56 three pointers made, Felton is shooting 36% on 51 of 139 three pointers made.

    And CP3 is averaging 9.9 assists to Felton's 9.

    CP3's laid back approach to offense has led to a .9 advantage, on average, in terms of assists up until this point, and neither player has any impact on whether or not STAT can get double or triple teamed on a nightly basis.

  3. #93
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    CP3 will do nothing to take the double and triple teams off of STAT. Opposing PGs aren't the problem, it's the wing players who leave Gallo and Chandler when they're pulling a Houdini that gives us grief.

    Let's watch someone leave Melo to help out on Amar'e and watch the dude have 30 points at halftime.
    Paul keeps the D on their toes. When he's in you can't double and triple team STAT because of his ability to penetrate at will. They would have to account for him too.

  4. #94
    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    The numbers aren't that diff tho.

    CP3 is averaging 16.0ppg and Felton is averaging 18.4.

    CP3 is shooting 48% from the field on 134 fields goals made of 284, Felton is shooting 45% on 184 field goals made of 404.

    CP3 is shooting 46% from 3 on 26 of 56 three pointers made, Felton is shooting 36% on 51 of 139 three pointers made.

    And CP3 is averaging 9.9 assists to Felton's 9.

    CP3's laid back approach to offense has led to a .9 advantage, on average, in terms of assists up until this point, and neither player has any impact on whether or not STAT can get double or triple teamed on a nightly basis.
    Agreed 100%

  5. #95
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    But Melo will drop 24 points on you whether you're on your toes or not. And Felton can penetrate and get to the rim almost as well as CP3, his problem is he isn't as good as a finisher, but that's not the issue...because once again...if Gallo and Chandler are disappearing like they did in the second half of the Heat game...the paint is clogged and even CP3 will be getting his shots altered at the rim like Ray Felt did.

    But if you have a serviceable Ray Felt (who's playing very well right now) and Amar'e and Melo...well there is instantly better floor spacing. With CP3, Amar'e, and Chandler/Gallo you can gamble and play off of either of those two if they're not showing any signs of being able to get the ball in the hoop, and still have someone trying to slow down CP3. But NO ONE is going to tell their players to play off of Melo, that's suicide.

  6. #96
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    You guys really haven't watched Paul enough. He's alot better than Felton. The numbers tell a story, but you have to go beyond the #'s when thinking about Paul. It's one thing to be better in a few categories, but Paul is comprehensively better than Felton and just about every other PG in the NBA. STOP UNDERRATING HIM!

  7. #97
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    You guys really haven't watched Paul enough. He's alot better than Felton. The numbers tell a story, but you have to go beyond the #'s when thinking about Paul. It's one thing to be better in a few categories, but Paul is comprehensively better than Felton and just about every other PG in the NBA. STOP UNDERRATING HIM!
    You're the one who brought up the numbers tho:
    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    The more you talk the more u prove a deficit of logic..

    First of all, Felton is not out playing Paul. Go look at the STATS. Is Felton averaging double digit assists? Who averages more steals? Shoots higher fg %? 3pt%? The answer is Paul in all of the above categories. That was your first fallacy toons.. You don't know what you're talking about.

    Next obviously we wouldn't keep Felton. He has a 2 yr deal, meaning he has something to prove. To me there are still questions about about whether or not he can handle our O against the best teams.
    I'm going to need you to explain in detail what CP3 would have done in the second half of the game against the Heat. Chandler started taking jumpshots (because the D dared him to), Gallo disappeared completely, and driving lanes were clogged once you got to the paint because that's where everyone was. CP3 would have had the same options that Felton had...shoot, drive, or pass. Passing was leading to missed shots and drives right into the defensive front that was waiting for it, and his attempts at the rim were getting altered and blocked.

    What was CP3 gonna do differently? Don't tell me about how great he is, cause I understand that. I like the dude, I respect his game, but I don't understand how he would be that much of an upgrade over Felton. Why upgrade a position that's already filled when we could try to add to what we currently have?

    First you say CP3 is better than Felton, then it's the numbers don't do him justice and if you can't see that you must not know the guy. What's next? You played against him and he mixed your **** up like MJ? Freaking you every which way like MJ, was he?
    Last edited by nuckles2k2; Dec 19, 2010 at 10:29.

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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    First to prove a point it's "who has the better numbers?" then when the numbers are similar (which means someone can't count or didn't even check them himself) it's you must not know him, stop underrating him.

    The problem isn't the PG play, it's the wing players not being consistent and not being a factor in the opposing team's defense strategies and tactics, leading to extra help coming STAT's way. No one gameplans around what Gallo or Chandler may or may not do, but they do gameplan against Amar'e. It's literally that simple.

    If the issue in your car is the catalytic converter, do you get some new axels and suspension and get your windows tinted for the hell of it? The underlying issue is still there.

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    Veteran la2ny's Avatar
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    The object of the game, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] said the other day, isn't just to be a hot ticket again. The object of the game is for the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] to be a real contender again, the way they were 10 years ago. The Knicks, as much fun as they have been so far this season, as much fun as the last week has been, aren't a contender yet for anything other than a low playoff seed.
    The rip they were on before they ran into the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and the Heat has absolutely shown that the Knicks are capable of making it back to the playoffs for the first time since [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] became the big boss at the Garden.
    Much more than that, the Knicks have shown us lately what a game-changer [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] could be for them.
    The Knicks, out of nowhere, have become great entertainment, made the Garden feel like a main plaza of the city again. You can absolutely make the case that [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] has been the best player in the league so far. And has earned the right to hear "MVP" chants at the Garden.
    But what he clearly saw through his goggles on Friday night and what the Garden saw and anybody watching the game on television saw was that [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] is still the best player, period.
    Yes, the best player without rings. Still trying to get past "The Decision." The one who has [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] as his wingmen. Also the one who has begun to figure it out in [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], along with Wade and Bosh. Especially Wade.
    But the best player. Period and exclamation point.
    As my friend [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] said after his [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] played the Heat, "It's hard enough to cover one of them (James or Wade) without trying to cover both of them in the same basketball game."
    I wasn't sure early in the season, even as we all began to realize there was so much more to Stoudemire than we knew before he hit the big, bad city, that the Knicks shouldn't give the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] too much if Anthony really is to be in play before the trade deadline, that they should hold on to what they have and wait for him to become a free agent.
    But then you see the possibilities with this Knicks team, right now. You also see what the Celtics are like when Garnett and Pierce and Allen and Rondo are all, in the immortal words of Mr. Frazier, swishin' and dishin'. You see that when the Heat gets going, when its three best guys can get to 84 points by themselves on a night when Amar'e and the Knicks only get to 91, it is like trying to stop water with a colander.
    You imagine at the same time what the Knicks would be like if people had to guard Amar'e and Carmelo and Everybody Loves [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. And then you think about what that team is like if Donnie Walsh goes and gets them the defensive-minded, rebounding big you know he eventually will.

    At that point it isn't difficult at all to tell Walsh to do everything he can to get Carmelo now, before he might end up somewhere else, before he ends up somewhere else the way LeBron did.
    You saw Friday night what greatness looks like when it gets help. Again: This wasn't about "The Decision" at the Garden. This was just about The Basketball. This was about a player No. 6 of the Heat who can do more things to win a game, in more dazzling ways, than anybody playing.
    This wasn't about the stupid buildup to the game or the stupid headlines, ones that were supposed to be built on the insane premise that LeBron was ever coming to the Knicks last summer when he sure was not. If anything, they ran fourth behind the Heat and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. The idea that somehow he had turned his back on New York? Come on. The [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] had a better shot at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Somehow, though, when the Heat was 9-8, when it got beat twice by the Celtics, the way LeBron left [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] became a referendum on his talent, his ability to carry a basketball team. He was the one portrayed as being Wade's wing man. In a pig's eye he is. Are you kidding? Put him on the Nets today and they are a 50-win team, and maybe more than that.
    The headline wasn't about chickens or bums on Friday night. LeBron was the headline. Three All-Stars against one, and that is not meant as a slap against Felton, who might end up an All-Star this season and has been tremdenous so far.
    He's just not Carmelo, one of the best pure scorers alive. The idea that his game doesn't fit the Knicks is nuts. Or that somehow he would take some of the luster off Amar'e Stoudemire's game. Also nuts.
    Who knows what the Nuggets want or what they will do, or how much Carmelo really wants to come here? But know this: The Celtics are old, but the Heat is not. If the Knicks really want to play with the big boys for more than a week, they need Carmelo.

  10. #100
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Your ignorance is astounding..

    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    You're the one who brought up the numbers tho:


    I'm going to need you to explain in detail what CP3 would have done in the second half of the game against the Heat. Chandler started taking jumpshots (because the D dared him to), Gallo disappeared completely, and driving lanes were clogged once you got to the paint because that's where everyone was. CP3 would have had the same options that Felton had...shoot, drive, or pass. Passing was leading to missed shots and drives right into the defensive front that was waiting for it, and his attempts at the rim were getting altered and blocked.

    What was CP3 gonna do differently? Don't tell me about how great he is, cause I understand that. I like the dude, I respect his game, but I don't understand how he would be that much of an upgrade over Felton. Why upgrade a position that's already filled when we could try to add to what we currently have?

    First you say CP3 is better than Felton, then it's the numbers don't do him justice and if you can't see that you must not know the guy. What's next? You played against him and he mixed your **** up like MJ? Freaking you every which way like MJ, was he?
    Knuckles, i really don't like debating you because you think you know the game but you really don't. You're comparison of CP3 to Felton and your lack of understanding of what a great player brings to game proves that.

    Aside from numbers (that is just one area that Paul dominates Felton), Felton cannot do what Paul does.

    The reason Paul would have had a greater impact on the game against Miami is because he is a legitimately great player. Felton is good, a nice player no doubt.. But Paul is GREAT. You don't understand this and you don't respect it as you say, or you wouldn't have the audacity to question his impact. Let's see what makes Paul great. Let's look at a scouting report from 2008:



    NBA Scouting Reports, Southwestern Division (Part Two)
    May 27, 2008
    Overview: Likely the best point guard in the NBA already, despite his age. Lightning quick and is almost impossible to stay in front of. Can play above the rim despite his lack of height. Doesn’t have an imposing frame, but compensates with great heart and athleticism. Plays bigger than he is. One of the best passers in the game today. Outstanding scorer when needed too. Plays tremendous defense when motivated. Already a franchise player. Garnered first team All-American honors during his sophomore season at Wake Forest. Was obviously a special player from day one with the Demon Deacons. Won the NBA Rookie of the Year Award in 2006. Played in the 2008 All-Star game. Displays great leadership skills for a player his age. Has a chance to become one of the all-time great point guards in the NBA if he continues along the same trajectory.

    Offense: One of the top distributors in the League. Gets about half of his offense in pick and roll situations, but is also capable of starting and finishing the break and taking his man one-on-one. Has improved his jump shot dramatically since entering the League. Forces defenders to respect his three point shot, a key to his development. Becoming a very consistent catch and shoot guy. Makes a killing off the dribble. Extremely efficient in general offensively. (1) Impossible to stay in front of and can either pull up or finish at the rim. One of the most creative finishers in the game. Isn’t limited by his height unlike most comparably sized players. (2) Runs the pick and roll as well as anybody. Turns the corner and then breaks down the defense with his tremendous ball handling ability. Gets in the lane, draws the defense, and finds his teammates. Does a very good job seeing the floor and reading defenders. Fantastic at controlling tempo—which is a key to New Orleans’ success. Makes everyone around him considerably better. Does not turn the ball over at all for how much he handles it. Turning into one of the game’s most dynamic offensive players.

    Defense: Very good on this end when he puts his mind to it, considering his limitations. Uses his unbelievable lateral quickness and 6-4 wingspan to dart in front of passes to create turnovers. Displays very good anticipation and quick hands when going for strips and deflections. Tough to get by due to his speed and improved strength. Struggles on the pick and roll, often late getting out and doesn’t do a great job fighting through screens. Can get posted up effectively due to his lack of size, or shot over the top of on the perimeter. Solid rebounder for his size and position. Will get anything that bounces long off the rim. Never late to a loose ball either.




    He is great in a lot of areas but the first (1) bold text is what sets him apart from a guy like Felton. Read that again, let it sink in.. He his impossible to stay in front on a bad day. No one on Miami can guard Paul, who could break down their defense at will, wreak havoc in the paint and find guys w ease. Felton cannot do this nearly as well as Paul. So far he's shown he can be kept out of the paint by the really good teams. When Felton did get in there against Boston and Miami he had very limited success finishing. You simply cannot keep Paul out of the teeth of the defense and we know about his ability to finish in traffic. This what, aside from the numbers sets Paul apart from the Williams and Feltons, and puts him the class of guys like Isiah Thomas. You couldn't keep Isiah from scoring in the paint either. It's what makes them GREAT. You clearly don't understand this and I hope i've educated you.

    The second (2) bold text is also what sets him apart. HE CAN CONTROL THE TEMPO LIKE NO OTHER.. He can run the pick and roll in his sleep. He is GREAT in all of the areas we utilize ad nauseum in the SSOL. This why i say he would have more of an impact on the Knicks than Melo. He is uber-prolific in the most important areas of our O. This seems so intuitive to me. Why don't you people get it???

    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    First to prove a point it's "who has the better numbers?" then when the numbers are similar (which means someone can't count or didn't even check them himself) it's you must not know him, stop underrating him.

    The problem isn't the PG play, it's the wing players not being consistent and not being a factor in the opposing team's defense strategies and tactics, leading to extra help coming STAT's way. No one gameplans around what Gallo or Chandler may or may not do, but they do gameplan against Amar'e. It's literally that simple.

    If the issue in your car is the catalytic converter, do you get some new axels and suspension and get your windows tinted for the hell of it? The underlying issue is still there.
    Dude, you are just retarded. I'm sorry. The problem these last two games was point guard play and the fact we could not get stops. Felton could not keep the proper tempo. The pick and roll was pretty much obliterated. And when he penetrated he got his **** rejected time and again. He just was not as effective as we need him to be against the really good teams.

    And on the numbers, when you compare really good players (like Felton) to a great player (like Paul), the numbers will be similar. It's like comparing Mark Price to Isiah Thomas. Yes their numbers are similar, but is Mark Price Isiah Thomas? No. What differentiates a great player from a really good one is how much they can bring to the court, and how dominant they are in game. Think about the above, how it contributes to Paul's dominance. Where talking about transcendence here.. Paul's greatness in areas of speed, quickness, awareness, passing, shooting, pick and roll play, turnover-free clean play, ball-handling, and defense is what makes him impossible to mute unlike what we've seen w Felton recently. He's going to find a way to affect a game. Add to what I've already stated the fact that he leads the league currently in player efficiency @ 26.4 and steals w 2.9 and you start to see why I'm so high on him. If you had any sense you would be as well......, and you wouldn't compare him to Felton so hastily.

    W Paul our perimeter guys would just just have to make shots, as they'd have plenty of open looks due to Paul's prowess at penetrating and finding guys. This is very simple knuckles, hometheatreguy, tools. Don't over think it.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Dec 19, 2010 at 20:22. Reason: typos biatches!

  11. #101
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Toons
    rono, you are emphatically agreeing with metro by sayin a future nba HOF like melo is only glen robinson....
    He's better than Glen Robinson. But he is still one dimensional and slightly overrated. I think that is what Metro is trying to say.

    Oh and by the way Toons.. Where's Darren Collison now??
    Last edited by ronoranina; Dec 19, 2010 at 16:56.

  12. #102
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    He's better than Glen Robinson. But he is still one dimensional and slightly overrated. I think that is what Metro is trying to say.

    Oh and by the way Toons.. Where's Darren Collison now??
    If you say Melo is "ome dimensional", how is that different than saying Kobe is one-dimensional?

    Anyways, I agree on CP3. We are also comparing him to the few month span of Felton's career, transcendent to anything else he has done prior, and predicated in good part of being here and playing for MD while being next to playmakers, of course highlighted by STAT.

    Also, just look at NO's record and how they play. They are a scrub ass team. CP3 to NO is a like Lebron Light to what he meant and did for the Cavs, virtually single handedly.

    Felton is a winner and he is good. And I wouldn't go out of my way to trade him for CP3, but if it's possible to get Paul (I don't think it is?) you rate it as high or higher than being able to get Melo.

    CP3 is a linchpin and I shudder to think how good he (and STAT...and everyone else..and anyone else we get) would be.

    You know how we almost beat BOS? Bc of tempo. They played our game for the most part, up to the very end. CP3 can have that transcendent impact to the 10th degree, every single night, every single opponent. It's the perfect blueprint for a championship; at least w what MD does and will be doing.

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    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Isiaauh,

    Kobe is far from one dimensional. Kobe is a great defender unlike Melo. He's a much better leader than Melo. Kobe is also a much better facilitator than Melo.

    Kobe is LIKE (don't get it twisted he ain't Money) Jordan was in that when he needs/ chooses to he can handle the ball, get to a spot, draw the defense and find teammates. He also has very good vision like Jordan.

    Melo has this element to his game, but it is not nearly as refined imo. His career assist averages bear this out. I believe he averages around 3.

    Your right on about CP3.

    I think we played at Boston's tempo that entire game and it contributed to the loss. Our tempo is much quicker. Boston's transition d,our inability to get stops/to's and Felt's lack of willingness to push consistently had a lot to do w the tempo going in their favor.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Dec 19, 2010 at 20:31.

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    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Aristoteles
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    If only the Nuggets and Grizzlies were that stupid.. Nice try Aristotles.

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