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Thread: Knicks Reluctant To Part With Fields In Possible Carmelo Deal

  1. #106
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Knuckles, i really don't like debating you because you think you know the game but you really don't. You're comparison of CP3 to Felton and your lack of understanding of what a great player brings to game proves that.

    Aside from numbers (that is just one area that Paul dominates Felton), Felton cannot do what Paul does.

    The reason Paul would have had a greater impact on the game against Miami is because he is a legitimately great player. Felton is good, a nice player no doubt.. But Paul is GREAT. You don't understand this and you don't respect it as you say, or you wouldn't have the audacity to question his impact. Let's see what makes Paul great. Let's look at a scouting report from 2008:



    NBA Scouting Reports, Southwestern Division (Part Two)
    May 27, 2008
    Overview: Likely the best point guard in the NBA already, despite his age. Lightning quick and is almost impossible to stay in front of. Can play above the rim despite his lack of height. Doesn’t have an imposing frame, but compensates with great heart and athleticism. Plays bigger than he is. One of the best passers in the game today. Outstanding scorer when needed too. Plays tremendous defense when motivated. Already a franchise player. Garnered first team All-American honors during his sophomore season at Wake Forest. Was obviously a special player from day one with the Demon Deacons. Won the NBA Rookie of the Year Award in 2006. Played in the 2008 All-Star game. Displays great leadership skills for a player his age. Has a chance to become one of the all-time great point guards in the NBA if he continues along the same trajectory.

    Offense: One of the top distributors in the League. Gets about half of his offense in pick and roll situations, but is also capable of starting and finishing the break and taking his man one-on-one. Has improved his jump shot dramatically since entering the League. Forces defenders to respect his three point shot, a key to his development. Becoming a very consistent catch and shoot guy. Makes a killing off the dribble. Extremely efficient in general offensively. (1) Impossible to stay in front of and can either pull up or finish at the rim. One of the most creative finishers in the game. Isn’t limited by his height unlike most comparably sized players. (2) Runs the pick and roll as well as anybody. Turns the corner and then breaks down the defense with his tremendous ball handling ability. Gets in the lane, draws the defense, and finds his teammates. Does a very good job seeing the floor and reading defenders. Fantastic at controlling tempo—which is a key to New Orleans’ success. Makes everyone around him considerably better. Does not turn the ball over at all for how much he handles it. Turning into one of the game’s most dynamic offensive players.

    Defense: Very good on this end when he puts his mind to it, considering his limitations. Uses his unbelievable lateral quickness and 6-4 wingspan to dart in front of passes to create turnovers. Displays very good anticipation and quick hands when going for strips and deflections. Tough to get by due to his speed and improved strength. Struggles on the pick and roll, often late getting out and doesn’t do a great job fighting through screens. Can get posted up effectively due to his lack of size, or shot over the top of on the perimeter. Solid rebounder for his size and position. Will get anything that bounces long off the rim. Never late to a loose ball either.




    He is great in a lot of areas but the first (1) bold text is what sets him apart from a guy like Felton. Read that again, let it sink in.. He his impossible to stay in front on a bad day. No one on Miami can guard Paul, who could break down their defense at will, wreak havoc in the paint and find guys w ease. Felton cannot do this nearly as well as Paul. So far he's shown he can be kept out of the paint by the really good teams. When Felton did get in there against Boston and Miami he had very limited success finishing. You simply cannot keep Paul out of the teeth of the defense and we know about his ability to finish in traffic. This what, aside from the numbers sets Paul apart from the Williams and Feltons, and puts him the class of guys like Isiah Thomas. You couldn't keep Isiah from scoring in the paint either. It's what makes them GREAT. You clearly don't understand this and I hope i've educated you.

    The second (2) bold text is also what sets him apart. HE CAN CONTROL THE TEMPO LIKE NO OTHER.. He can run the pick and roll in his sleep. He is GREAT in all of the areas we utilize ad nauseum in the SSOL. This why i say he would have more of an impact on the Knicks than Melo. He is uber-prolific in the most important areas of our O. This seems so intuitive to me. Why don't you people get it???



    Dude, you are just retarded. I'm sorry. The problem these last two games was point guard play and the fact we could not get stops. Felton could not keep the proper tempo. The pick and roll was pretty much obliterated. And when he penetrated he got his **** rejected time and again. He just was not as effective as we need him to be against the really good teams.

    And on the numbers, when you compare really good players (like Felton) to a great player (like Paul), the numbers will be similar. It's like comparing Mark Price to Isiah Thomas. Yes their numbers are similar, but is Mark Price Isiah Thomas? No. What differentiates a great player from a really good one is how much they can bring to the court, and how dominant they are in game. Think about the above, how it contributes to Paul's dominance. Where talking about transcendence here.. Paul's greatness in areas of speed, quickness, awareness, passing, shooting, pick and roll play, turnover-free clean play, ball-handling, and defense is what makes him impossible to mute unlike what we've seen w Felton recently. He's going to find a way to affect a game. Add to what I've already stated the fact that he leads the league currently in player efficiency @ 26.4 and steals w 2.9 and you start to see why I'm so high on him. If you had any sense you would be as well......, and you wouldn't compare him to Felton so hastily.

    W Paul our perimeter guys would just just have to make shots, as they'd have plenty of open looks due to Paul's prowess at penetrating and finding guys. This is very simple knuckles, hometheatreguy, tools. Don't over think it.
    Solid Post, anyone with a brain can see that Paul is a far superior talent then Melo. The probelm is two fold tho. Felton is good enough to play for a championship, last years Champ had an aging Fisher at PG. Secondly melo is more available where as Paul is kind of stuck in New Orleans.

    If we could somehow trade Felton and other pieces for Chris Paul then I say go for it as Paul is much deadlier then Felton in a pick n' roll with STAT. In fact Paul and STAT would be one of the hardest pink n' rolls to cover in history. In this scenario we could assemble a "big three" by the end of this season giving us a whole training camp for Paul and Melo to be worked in.

    But never mind cause this is a pipe dream..lol

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Isiaauh,

    Kobe is far from one dimensional. Kobe is a great defender unlike Melo. He's a much better leader than Melo. Kobe is also a much better facilitator than Melo.

    Kobe is LIKE (don't get it twisted he ain't Money) Jordan was in that when he needs/ chooses to he can handle the ball, get to a spot, draw the defense and find teammates. He also has very good vision like Jordan.

    Melo has this element to his game, but it is not nearly as refined imo. His career assist averages bear this out. I believe he averages around 3.

    Your right on about CP3.

    I think we played at Boston's tempo that entire game and it contributed to the loss. Our tempo is much quicker. Boston's transition d,our inability to get stops/to's and Felt's lack of willingness to push consistently had a lot to do w the tempo going in their favor.
    Re: BOS game, I completely agree that we lost it at end for that precise reasoning. But we were actually winning the game, and made them win it FROM us, bc our tempo, while imperfectly executed, was still making BOS play more out of their element and into ours than they expected or would like. It really shows how powerful bringing the --opposite-- of what a team expects or has been conditioned to be comfortable w and thrive off of has...

    Kobe...I mean, I'm not saying Melo is as good. But it's a reach to call him 1dimensional when he has Kobe-like attributes, even if they aren't as refined. Plus, his assists are low bc he's a pretty large 3 who could handily play where a natural PF would. Kobe can dish more bc he's more along the lines of a guard playing in a system that downplays having a dominant facilitating PG. Versus playing w Billups, eg

    Considering that, and Melo being --such-- an elite scorer, along with having a facilitator like Billups at point, his assists are ok. And his rebounding his toptop. Which we could really use!

    STAT has leader him already, so if Melo more so feeds off STAT's #1 status as vocal/demonstrable leader, no prob, IMO.

    Melo leads NBA in buzzer beaters. Led 'Cuse to the promised land as a freshman. Dude has ice in his veins.

    He won a game a week or so back creating a very tough jump shot and icing it as time expired for the W.

    Exactly what we need! Think of what Rupaul brings to the Boston 'Dicks in that regard and what he did to us.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    The more you talk the more u prove to have a deficit of logic..

    First of all, Felton is not out playing Paul. Go look at the STATS. Is Felton averaging double digit assists? Who averages more steals? Shoots higher fg %? 3pt%? The answer is Paul in all of the above categories. That was your first fallacy toons.. You don't know what you're talking about.

    Next obviously we wouldn't keep Felton. He has a 2 yr deal, meaning he has something to prove. To me there are still questions about about whether or not he can handle our O against the best teams. We wouldn't have any question about whether Paul could consistently control the tempo and set guys/ Amare up against the best the league has to offer. I'm not completely sold on Felton, although as I've said I do like him.

    Learn how to read, i said he is outplaying paul RIGHT NOW....That says a lot for a pg learning his new team on the fly. felton is averaging 19 n 11 compared to pauls 16 n 8.5 over the last 14 days. Also if you bin watching games, you can see that felton is clearly outplaying him, and showed it when we beat the hornets.



    No need to call names. You're a very emotional little man Toons. Lay off the estrogen injections my dude..

    Yes we already have a facilitator, but if he was the guy why did Donnie say anybody but Amare can go for Paul even after we'd acquired him?? That would seem to me to mean Felton could go to.

    because that was before felton played one game....and i call a spade a spade, if you're an idiot your an idiot

    It's still early. Felton has more to prove. He was one of the main probs in the losses to the Celts and Miami. Paul has nothing to prove to w regards to his playmaking against all comers. You're wrong.
    are you serious? it was amares turnovers that killed us...im not gonna be all over this guys nuts and he's tuning the ball over like a jackass. his is why he needs melo as well.the loss in miami, felton was clearly a step behind. 3 games in 4 nights, 1 OT game at 40+ mins a game. i solute a soldier like ray.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Paul keeps the D on their toes. When he's in you can't double and triple team STAT because of his ability to penetrate at will. They would have to account for him too.
    and people just leave carmelo anthony wide open....smh

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    You guys really haven't watched Paul enough. He's alot better than Felton. The numbers tell a story, but you have to go beyond the #'s when thinking about Paul. It's one thing to be better in a few categories, but Paul is comprehensively better than Felton and just about every other PG in the NBA. STOP UNDERRATING HIM!
    no one in underrating paul....we no longe rhave duhon, we dont need paul. w need melo and a centre. the same an be said with melo...e numbers arent everything.

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    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Re: BOS game, I completely agree that we lost it at end for that precise reasoning. But we were actually winning the game, and made them win it FROM us, bc our tempo, while imperfectly executed, was still making BOS play more out of their element and into ours than they expected or would like. It really shows how powerful bringing the --opposite-- of what a team expects or has been conditioned to be comfortable w and thrive off of has...

    Kobe...I mean, I'm not saying Melo is as good. But it's a reach to call him 1dimensional when he has Kobe-like attributes, even if they aren't as refined. Plus, his assists are low bc he's a pretty large 3 who could handily play where a natural PF would. Kobe can dish more bc he's more along the lines of a guard playing in a system that downplays having a dominant facilitating PG. Versus playing w Billups, eg

    Considering that, and Melo being --such-- an elite scorer, along with having a facilitator like Billups at point, his assists are ok. And his rebounding his toptop. Which we could really use!

    STAT has leader him already, so if Melo more so feeds off STAT's #1 status as vocal/demonstrable leader, no prob, IMO.

    Melo leads NBA in buzzer beaters. Led 'Cuse to the promised land as a freshman. Dude has ice in his veins.

    He won a game a week or so back creating a very tough jump shot and icing it as time expired for the W.

    Exactly what we need! Think of what Rupaul brings to the Boston 'Dicks in that regard and what he did to us.
    He's gonna disregard all of this tho. It's not about who is the superior talent (which is debatable) but it's about what the team needs. Once again, not who's better at positions already filled, but upgrading the weakest parts of the team.

    Losing Felton, and Gallo/Chandler, and Fields for CP3 would cripple this team. Because we already have a serviceable PG who's getting the job done but our weakness is the wing where defenders can gamble off of their man and help out on drives to the rim or down low with STAT. CP3 will be effected by this as well, the dude isn't a ghost of some sort that can morph thru people.

    Did you see his layup attempt to try to win the game last night? West is on the perimeter and the paint is unoccupied by any Hornets. CP3 has the ball and drives from the right elbow, Prince is leaving his man wide open in the left corner for 3...he's inching his way deeper into the paint, West dives down from the left elbow as CP3 gets to the rim but Bynum and Prince double him on his left and the pass is damn near impossible, Bellineli is guarded in the right corner and CP3's layup gets swatted by Prince. They go to overtime and lose on a bad inbounds play that had nothing to to with Paul. He had 23 points, 2 rebounds, 10 assists, and 3 steals.

    Now...in a situation where the team knew CP3 was gonna be the guy trying to make the play...they took away his passing options and made him the guy. He drives into the teeth of a waiting defense and they stop him....I sat in the Garden and watched the Heat do that to Ray Felt on Friday. I see CP3 effected by the same age old basketball strategies that effect other point guards (that's not to say he isn't better than them) but it's more of a positional thing than a talent thing. I've also sat in the Garden and watched Ray Felt shine and make some nice plays and hit some clutch shots.

    Don't show me a scouting report about CP3 because I am aware of his talents and abilities. But I still say we need to upgrade the wing to keep defenses honest. CP3 had the Pistons on their toes late in that game and they still stopped him. The same can be done to Felton, and Westbrook, and Nash, and Rondo, etc.

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    are you serious? it was amares turnovers that killed us...im not gonna be all over this guys nuts and he's tuning the ball over like a jackass. his is why he needs melo as well.the loss in miami, felton was clearly a step behind. 3 games in 4 nights, 1 OT game at 40+ mins a game. i solute a soldier like ray.
    Nah, we lost the game because Felton could not get in to the paint and finish or draw attention and kick out to perimeter shooters, particulary in the second half against Miami. The pick and roll, a staple of our offense, was also nonexistant. He was bad. Make excuses about Felton being tired or whatever if you want, but he should still be able to execute the main plays of our offense.

    Originally Posted by Toons
    no one in underrating paul....we no longe rhave duhon, we dont need paul. w need melo and a centre. the same an be said with melo...e numbers arent everything.
    But you guys overrate Melo.. We have three good, young perimeter players that are growing every game. The two players Denver's most likely to ask for are Gallo and Fields. I don't want to give up either guy for Melo. As I've said Paul is a different matter.

    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    He's gonna disregard all of this tho. It's not about who is the superior talent (which is debatable) but it's about what the team needs. Once again, not who's better at positions already filled, but upgrading the weakest parts of the team.

    Losing Felton, and Gallo/Chandler, and Fields for CP3 would cripple this team. Because we already have a serviceable PG who's getting the job done but our weakness is the wing where defenders can gamble off of their man and help out on drives to the rim or down low with STAT. CP3 will be effected by this as well, the dude isn't a ghost of some sort that can morph thru people.

    Did you see his layup attempt to try to win the game last night? West is on the perimeter and the paint is unoccupied by any Hornets. CP3 has the ball and drives from the right elbow, Prince is leaving his man wide open in the left corner for 3...he's inching his way deeper into the paint, West dives down from the left elbow as CP3 gets to the rim but Bynum and Prince double him on his left and the pass is damn near impossible, Bellineli is guarded in the right corner and CP3's layup gets swatted by Prince. They go to overtime and lose on a bad inbounds play that had nothing to to with Paul. He had 23 points, 2 rebounds, 10 assists, and 3 steals.

    Now...in a situation where the team knew CP3 was gonna be the guy trying to make the play...they took away his passing options and made him the guy. He drives into the teeth of a waiting defense and they stop him....I sat in the Garden and watched the Heat do that to Ray Felt on Friday. I see CP3 effected by the same age old basketball strategies that effect other point guards (that's not to say he isn't better than them) but it's more of a positional thing than a talent thing. I've also sat in the Garden and watched Ray Felt shine and make some nice plays and hit some clutch shots.

    Don't show me a scouting report about CP3 because I am aware of his talents and abilities. But I still say we need to upgrade the wing to keep defenses honest. CP3 had the Pistons on their toes late in that game and they still stopped him. The same can be done to Felton, and Westbrook, and Nash, and Rondo, etc.
    Let me ask you something, who was Prince guarding? Did he help off of another perimeter player? Or was he guarding Paul?

    Paul can't be stopped if he has Amare to run the pick and roll w. Plain and simple. Teams would have to pick their poison. A Paul layup, a dunk for a Amare, or help off our perimeter guys and Paul finds them for an open look.

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    Prince was helping off of the player standing on the perimeter all the way on the left corner. He was standing about 2 feet in front of the left elbow and his man was tucked in the corner, trying to create space but it failed because Prince had his back to him and was standing about 5 feet away from him. Paul drove around Bynum, who conceded the right side to allow Prince to crash down and help out. West got in right behind Prince and was right in front of the rim and would have either converted or got fouled by Maxiell, but Bynum and Prince both walled off CP3's left side.

    His only two options were to either force the layup (which he did and it got swatted back) or force a pass to Belinelli tucked in the right corner who was blanketed by his man. If he tried to get it to West he's putting the ball right in Prince's hands. Now if Melo is over in that left corner, Prince is not helping off of him and it's just CP3-Bynum and West-Maxiell, involved in the play. Because you're not leaving Belinelli open for 3 and you're never, ever, going to play off of Melo. Then you'd seriously have to pick your poison of CP3 or West. But when the defense can guide you to the baseline and wall off your only real passing option...it doesn't matter who you are. You need some help.

    Yea a pick and roll between CP3 and Amar'e would be devastating but if you play the passing lane on your way to helping in the paint (exactly what Prince did, that's exactly what playing off someone is...) then you take away the kickout and contest the big man catching the ball in front of the rim. The key is not allowing that 3rd guy to play off of his man and play the passing lane on his way into the paint. At no point did Prince EVER play his man during the possession...he was pretty much a corner playing zone coverage...just watching the ball and reacting. That's what we can't have happen. No one is going to play off of Melo like that because he's way too versatile a player to turn your back to.

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    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    Prince was helping off of the player standing on the perimeter all the way on the left corner. He was standing about 2 feet in front of the left elbow and his man was tucked in the corner, trying to create space but it failed because Prince had his back to him and was standing about 5 feet away from him. Paul drove around Bynum, who conceded the right side to allow Prince to crash down and help out. West got in right behind Prince and was right in front of the rim and would have either converted or got fouled by Maxiell, but Bynum and Prince both walled off CP3's left side.

    His only two options were to either force the layup (which he did and it got swatted back) or force a pass to Belinelli tucked in the right corner who was blanketed by his man. If he tried to get it to West he's putting the ball right in Prince's hands. Now if Melo is over in that left corner, Prince is not helping off of him and it's just CP3-Bynum and West-Maxiell, involved in the play. Because you're not leaving Belinelli open for 3 and you're never, ever, going to play off of Melo. Then you'd seriously have to pick your poison of CP3 or West. But when the defense can guide you to the baseline and wall off your only real passing option...it doesn't matter who you are. You need some help.

    Yea a pick and roll between CP3 and Amar'e would be devastating but if you play the passing lane on your way to helping in the paint (exactly what Prince did, that's exactly what playing off someone is...) then you take away the kickout and contest the big man catching the ball in front of the rim. The key is not allowing that 3rd guy to play off of his man and play the passing lane on his way into the paint. At no point did Prince EVER play his man during the possession...he was pretty much a corner playing zone coverage...just watching the ball and reacting. That's what we can't have happen. No one is going to play off of Melo like that because he's way too versatile a player to turn your back to.
    That must have been a weak outside shooter Prince was supposed to have been guarding.. But he is the ideal defender to have in that situation as he is extremely long and good at playing the passing lanes. The above scenario is a symptom of Paul not really having another attention grabber on his squad. If we were to pair him w Amare and somehow we were able to keep Gallo, that would be an extremely tight combo of players inside and out. Teams would have a difficult time dealing with that. When Gallo is in the game, perimeter defenders don't really leave him to help on penetration that much. When they do he usually makes them pay. The scouting report on Gallo says you don't leave him. Like I said, teams would have to pick there poison. Now, obviously if he's having an terrible shooting night and gone like 1-8 from 3 going into the 4th that's a different story and it would change things somewhat, as guys could then sag off him and play for the drive, which speaks to the importance of making shots. No matter who is on the perimeter, Melo or otherwise, if they don't make shots guys are gonna gamble/take the opportunity to help off of them.

    The third perimeter guy you speak of better be able to make shots as well. What's ideal in the SSOL is to have guys on the perimeter who can make from the outside. Like the Suns when Amare was w Nash. They had Diaw, Bell and Marion to go w Nash. All of them could hit so after the p and r if anybody tried to help they were leaving a knockdown shooter open. It was nice that Diaw could play the 4 and hit from 3, and handle the ball/post up. He was very dynamic. Eventually I envision Gallo being that guy (w his versatility) to go along w Amare at the 4 spot w Amare holding down the 5. Down the road I envision Chandler will be packaged in a trade, lol..
    Last edited by ronoranina; Dec 20, 2010 at 19:59.

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    To me if we keep Gallo and get Melo that makes no sense. Gallo has a problem with passing the ball around and playing as a team player at many times. I would rather keep Chandler as he can rebound and play defense and his outside game is improving. All Gallo can do is shoot at the moment.

    Seems logical we lose him and Randolph and keep Fields and Chandler as they play better defensively and get rebound the **** out of the ball.

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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    That must have been a weak outside shooter Prince was supposed to have been guarding.. But he is the ideal defender to have in that situation as he is extremely long and good at playing the passing lanes. The above scenario is a symptom of Paul not really having another attention grabber on his squad. If we were to pair him w Amare and somehow we were able to keep Gallo, that would be an extremely tight combo of players inside and out. Teams would have a difficult time dealing with that. When Gallo is in the game, perimeter defenders don't really leave him to help on penetration that much. When they do he usually makes them pay. The scouting report on Gallo says you don't leave him. Like I said, teams would have to pick there poison. Now, obviously if he's having an terrible shooting night and gone like 1-8 from 3 going into the 4th that's a different story and it would change things somewhat, as guys could then sag off him and play for the drive, which speaks to the importance of making shots. No matter who is on the perimeter, Melo or otherwise, if they don't make shots guys are gonna gamble/take the opportunity to help off of them.

    The third perimeter guy you speak of better be able to make shots as well. What's ideal in the SSOL is to have guys on the perimeter who can make from the outside. Like the Suns when Amare was w Nash. They had Diaw, Bell and Marion to go w Nash. All of them could hit so after the p and r if anybody tried to help they were leaving a knockdown shooter open. It was nice that Diaw could play the 4 and hit from 3, and handle the ball/post up. He was very dynamic. Eventually I envision Gallo being that guy (w his versatility) to go along w Amare at the 4 spot w Amare holding down the 5. Down the road I envision Chandler will be packaged in a trade, lol..
    It's too easy to say "eventually I envision [insert player] being that guy, or playing that way, etc." I'm not envisioning Felton and Amar'e being a nice combo right now, they are...it's fact. I've seen it, you've seen it, and so has everyone else. Another fact, Carmelo Anthony is that versatile guy that you're "envisioning" (dreaming, wishing, hoping, praying) Gallo is gonna be one day. Melo is that guy right now...no envisioning, predicting, foreseeing necessary.

    So why make a minor upgrade to a position that's being adequately filled, and lose assets in doing so, to only gamble that one of your players will maybe one day play as well as one of the all-time versatile talents that the game's ever seen...when you can actually go get that guy?

    Why lose Felton to get CP3 and gamble on Gallo, when we can keep Felton and go get Melo?

    Is this really about building the best team possible or is it about players that we like and wish were on our team? This is in no way a sleight against CP3...but it just goes against all basketball logic.

    If the Thunder could trade Harden and Greene, plus some picks to get..let's say....Blake Griffin or trade Westbrook, Greene, Ibaka, and picks to get D-Will...which trade are they taking? Is the minor upgrade (if at all) of Russell to D-Will worth it? Now what about a trio of Westbrook, Blake, and Durant?

    How is CP3 + Amar'e and others, better than Felton, Melo, Amar'e + supporting cast?

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