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Thread: what does the bible really teach?

  1. #16
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    OG,

    You need to stop tryina call people out for their belief system, then basically saying your path to enlightenment is the way to go. You, more than anyone else that touches this subject, is fooling yourself the most. Because you, all by yourself, has it all figured out. You will say, "dont follow me, find ur own path" bit if you interject and proceed to tell us about your journey, is it really our path, or yours?

    You are a philosophical nomad, claiming you have found a peace of self. And that works for me just fine. However a person who can quote the bible, and it's teachings, yet does not respect the author, will never fully understand true meaning his message. And thats why I'm baffled as to why you quote the bible so much. You dont get it!

    Jesus said this once to too

    Matthew 7:15,18,19,20,21,22,23
    15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span> in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
    18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.
    19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20 Really, then, by their fruits <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span> will recognize those [men].
    21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’
    23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span>! Get away from me, <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span> workers of lawlessness.

    Jesus only those DOING his Fathers will, sees the Kingdom of the heavens. Last I chked, u dont care wat jehovah thinks. So according to Jesus, u must be a false prophet.

    Do ya Budha, philosophy, spiritual walk, watever. Thats on you, but if you gonna teach Jesus, atleast know what he was about, and who and wat he stood for.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    OG,

    You need to stop tryina call people out for their belief system, then basically saying your path to enlightenment is the way to go. You, more than anyone else that touches this subject, is fooling yourself the most. Because you, all by yourself, has it all figured out. You will say, "dont follow me, find ur own path" bit if you interject and proceed to tell us about your journey, is it really our path, or yours?

    You are a philosophical nomad, claiming you have found a peace of self. And that works for me just fine. However a person who can quote the bible, and it's teachings, yet does not respect the author, will never fully understand true meaning his message. And thats why I'm baffled as to why you quote the bible so much. You dont get it!

    Jesus said this once to too

    Matthew 7:15,18,19,20,21,22,23
    15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span> in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
    18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.
    19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20 Really, then, by their fruits <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span> will recognize those [men].
    21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’
    23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span>! Get away from me, <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span> workers of lawlessness.

    Jesus only those DOING his Fathers will, sees the Kingdom of the heavens. Last I chked, u dont care wat jehovah thinks. So according to Jesus, u must be a false prophet.

    Do ya Budha, philosophy, spiritual walk, watever. Thats on you, but if you gonna teach Jesus, atleast know what he was about, and who and wat he stood for.
    If I am wrong, then I am more than willing to admit my mistakes. Tell me, is Jesus not kind, as I have asserted in my posts in this thread, when others around him, including the apostles, urge him to harshness? Does he not show grace toward those who, according to the old testament, must be stoned or are unclean and not to be touched, let alone healed? Did he not abbrogate the eye-for-an-eye law and say we should turn the other cheek? Did he not say we should love our enemies?

    The above is what I have shared with mvp and others. Is this wrong or an attempt to mislead others or claim prophethood? And how was my commentary regarding you and LJ theology? It was a challenge to your admittedly-innocent exploitation of this Master. My goal is to help you see this, so that you both try to understand Him, rather than use him.

    Is insulting one another, being mean-spirited and using Jesus to argue for or against science a Christ-like effort? Or are you two shallow in your knowledge of him and using his message to justify yourselves and your existing, acquired beliefs, forsaking that which does not apply to your acquired knowledge?

    These are fair questions that I have brought up, for your sakes and not to hurt you or anyone else. But, instead of addressing them, you see them as an attack, cause for fighting and not cause for thinking about your connection to God or science and, depending on whether or not I made a mistake, correcting me if I was wrong or misunderstood you.

    It was spoken thusly:
    • "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." -Jesus, Matthew 11:30
    Your yoke does not seem easy or meek and lowly, fellas. It seems heavy and haughty, which is the fault of those who have misled you. I urge you to take a yoke like that of Jesus upon yourselves, recognize it by its ease, fairness, love and peace.

    I am not interested in fighting your denomination, or that of atheists, K4L. I am simply suggesting that you practice your individual faiths in a way that lets you see more than just what you think is "for" or "against" you [in these wise and sacred words]: which is self-justification, self-righteousness.

    And Jesus loves all, and his love and grace judged men with fairness, understanding and compassion. Even the apostles did not know Jesus' methods, for he constantly corrected them for their harshness.

    Forsake your rules, my brother, and...


    LOVE

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    Jesus is a beacon of truth. The bible is truth. All of it. If he were witnessing today, he would rip Richard Dawkins apart to defend the truth. In fact, he so believed in God so much, he died to prove it. Again, I see what u mean to a degree, but Lj and I are big boys, we discuss and move on, no matter how heated. We dont need integrity police to watch over us. Thnx tho.

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    We have been given these words of profound wisdom, spoken by Jesus, while he lived in a culture that practiced a very black-and-white, right-or-wrong brand of morality and wisdom. When you gentlemen read to test the congruence of Jesus' words with your standards, this is very similar to what his contemporary detractors did, which caused them to not understand him.
    • “the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." -Jesus, Matthew 7:7
    What Jesus says here is very true, when it comes to the acquisition of knowledge. The problem is that most people do not "seek," and, as a result, do not "find" anything.

    If you read Jesus' words to prove, or disprove, YOUR scientific beliefs, you truly do not seek or ask him what it is he wanted to tell you and others about, which is why you truly do not find: your spirituality becomes a self-enclosed, self-defined graveyard.

    This is because you are using Jesus' words as a supplement to your opinions, not understanding what he is saying on its own merits, not truly seeking and asking.

    My hope is that, whether you believe in Jesus' divinity or not, you read his words with a seeking attitude, rather than one that involves self-interest of some sort. And realize that being self-interested can be very subtle: a magazine that claims to translate Jesus' words for you, thus causing you to seek within a limited range, is fundamentally the same as someone who reads the bible for the limited purpose of ridiculing it. We should all search ourselves for the detrimental effects of self-interest, when it comes to spiritual matters.

    Seek, my friends.

    PEACE

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    We have been given these words of profound wisdom, spoken by Jesus, while he lived in a culture that practiced a very black-and-white, right-or-wrong brand of morality and wisdom. When you gentlemen read to test the congruence of Jesus' words with your standards, this is very similar to what his contemporary detractors did, which caused them to not understand him.
    • “the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." -Jesus, Matthew 7:7
    What Jesus says here is very true, when it comes to the acquisition of knowledge. The problem is that most people do not "seek," and, as a result, do not "find" anything.

    If you read Jesus' words to prove, or disprove, YOUR scientific beliefs, you truly do not seek or ask him what it is he wanted to tell you and others about, which is why you truly do not find: your spirituality becomes a self-enclosed, self-defined graveyard.

    This is because you are using Jesus' words as a supplement to your opinions, not understanding what he is saying on its own merits, not truly seeking and asking.

    My hope is that, whether you believe in Jesus' divinity or not, you read his words with a seeking attitude, rather than one that involves self-interest of some sort. And realize that being self-interested can be very subtle: a magazine that claims to translate Jesus' words for you, thus causing you to seek within a limited range, is fundamentally the same as someone who reads the bible for the limited purpose of ridiculing it. We should all search ourselves for the detrimental effects of self-interest, when it comes to spiritual matters.

    Seek, my friends.

    PEACE
    Why must everyone be spiritual? Do you believe noone can be happy without spirituality?

    What about knowledge, facts? Do we not need to seek those too?

  6. #21
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Why must everyone be spiritual? Do you believe noone can be happy without spirituality?

    What about knowledge, facts? Do we not need to seek those too?
    I did not say everyone must be spiritual (however one defines that). I said that bringing a bunch of baggage to understanding a person (Jesus, in this case) is an error and precludes understanding [him].

    I do believe people should strive to find real spirituality [in the form of] peace, love, ascension to a state of living that is beyond the gilded cage we create for ourselves and each other.

    To me, this is spirituality, and it involves no faith in a man in the sky, heaven or hell, or any of the rest. It requires we come to the conclusion that what we invest our lives in: food, electronics, sex, etc., will not bring us to peace.

    You conflate happiness and peace with knowledge. Why do you feel there must be an intermediary between yourself and peace? To remove all intermediaries between yourself and everything, to me, is spirituality.

    PEACE & LOVE

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    I did not say everyone must be spiritual (however one defines that). I said that bringing a bunch of baggage to understanding a person (Jesus, in this case) is an error and precludes understanding [him].

    I do believe people should strive to find real spirituality [in the form of] peace, love, ascension to a state of living that is beyond the gilded cage we create for ourselves and each other.

    To me, this is spirituality, and it involves no faith in a man in the sky, heaven or hell, or any of the rest. It requires we come to the conclusion that what we invest our lives in: food, electronics, sex, etc., will not bring us to peace.

    You conflate happiness and peace with knowledge. Why do you feel there must be an intermediary between yourself and peace? To remove all intermediaries between yourself and everything, to me, is spirituality.

    PEACE & LOVE
    Thank you. Just trying to clarify. I agree, food, electronics, sex, etc., will not bring us to peace. Although, sometimes I doubt whether or not anyone can truly define peace or even achieve it. There can be moments of peace but I am not entirely sure that it is possible to achieve lifelong peace as many things are beyond our control. Good luck. I hope you do. And if this is your path for achieving it, than more power to you. This aproach may not apply to everyone though.

    And I do not believe happiness and peace are solely from knowledge. Gaining knowledge and discerning the difference of fact from fiction are important to me though.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    We have been given these words of profound wisdom, spoken by Jesus, while he lived in a culture that practiced a very black-and-white, right-or-wrong brand of morality and wisdom. When you gentlemen read to test the congruence of Jesus' words with your standards, this is very similar to what his contemporary detractors did, which caused them to not understand him.
    • “the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." -Jesus, Matthew 7:7
    What Jesus says here is very true, when it comes to the acquisition of knowledge. The problem is that most people do not "seek," and, as a result, do not "find" anything.

    If you read Jesus' words to prove, or disprove, YOUR scientific beliefs, you truly do not seek or ask him what it is he wanted to tell you and others about, which is why you truly do not find: your spirituality becomes a self-enclosed, self-defined graveyard.

    This is because you are using Jesus' words as a supplement to your opinions, not understanding what he is saying on its own merits, not truly seeking and asking.

    My hope is that, whether you believe in Jesus' divinity or not, you read his words with a seeking attitude, rather than one that involves self-interest of some sort. And realize that being self-interested can be very subtle: a magazine that claims to translate Jesus' words for you, thus causing you to seek within a limited range, is fundamentally the same as someone who reads the bible for the limited purpose of ridiculing it. We should all search ourselves for the detrimental effects of self-interest, when it comes to spiritual matters.

    Seek, my friends.

    PEACE
    That verse you qouted concerns one seeking God. Jesus sole purpose was to preach the kingdom if God. U are using his verses to back ur philosophical views. Huge diff

  9. #24
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Thank you. Just trying to clarify. I agree, food, electronics, sex, etc., will not bring us to peace. Although, sometimes I doubt whether or not anyone can truly define peace or even achieve it. There can be moments of peace but I am not entirely sure that it is possible to achieve lifelong peace as many things are beyond our control. Good luck. I hope you do. And if this is your path for achieving it, than more power to you. This aproach may not apply to everyone though.

    And I do not believe happiness and peace are solely from knowledge. Gaining knowledge and discerning the difference of fact from fiction are important to me though.
    In regards to your clarification, I bring those up as examples of what we, as a species, believe is the source of peace. Please don't take anything I say as a personal attack. Some of us pray for such things, some of us who do not believe in prayer or any related practice, still lust after them, with all hope and faith. Both groups are bound to the intermediary and nothing more.

    Exactly: peace cannot be defined. It is in the process of defining that we restrict and lose it. It is essentially a thoughtless state: a state of complete rejection of intermediaries, total rest (peace) lies in restrictlessness, total resignation to facing what comes. In it is a rest that can only be compared to sleep or death. In it, there are none of the burdens that intermediaries to peace will always leave us with.

    And as for our inability to achieve perpetual peace, rest is there, it is we who refuse it in favor of false intermediaries, e.g., the control (an intermediary of some sort) you say we don't have over our lives. The disabled child has no intermediary to peace, it is as an adult that he or she finds there must be one and, in the process, loses his or her God-given peace.

    It is hard to say that one can live in peace while facing death, while starving, while being insulted and slandered... but ultimately, our own perception, our rules and standards, which are even the atheists' GOD are the only barrier to perpetual peace. It is never an external devil, demon or God that impedes!

    I leave you with The Enlightened One's words on the matter:

    *"Ah, happily do we live without hate, amongst those who hate us; amidst the hateful, we dwell unhating." -The Buddha, from The Dhammapada

    *It is ultimately we who decide to react, and deprive ourselves of bliss, usually out of habit and ignorance, related to our rules for dealing with things. No rules, my friend!

    PEACE & LOVE, Brother

    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    That verse you qouted concerns one seeking God. Jesus sole purpose was to preach the kingdom if God. U are using his verses to back ur philosophical views. Huge diff
    "Preaching the kingdom" is certainly something Jesus and his apostles spoke on. However, Jesus is, in what I posted, clearly speaking to those who seek him on how to do so properly. Here is the whole quote:
    • “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?" -Jesus, Matthew 7
    • So the question is, what are you asking for, if anything? And my point was, and is, that you are seeking yourselves, or those who have instructed you, in the words of one who has beckoned you to ask in earnest.
    I quoted it to say that reading to prove yourselves right means you are not knocking, you are not asking, because you already approach the teacher with, and only for, your answers. Knocking is not really what you are after, if you look at the matter carefully.

    God Bless

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    In regards to your clarification, I bring those up as examples of what we, as a species, believe is the source of peace. Please don't take anything I say as a personal attack. Some of us pray for such things, some of us who do not believe in prayer or any related practice, still lust after them, with all hope and faith. Both groups are bound to the intermediary and nothing more.

    Exactly: peace cannot be defined. It is in the process of defining that we restrict and lose it. It is essentially a thoughtless state: a state of complete rejection of intermediaries, total rest (peace) lies in restrictlessness, total resignation to facing what comes. In it is a rest that can only be compared to sleep or death. In it, there are none of the burdens that intermediaries to peace will always leave us with.

    And as for our inability to achieve perpetual peace, rest is there, it is we who refuse it in favor of false intermediaries, e.g., the control (an intermediary of some sort) you say we don't have over our lives. The disabled child has no intermediary to peace, it is as an adult that he or she finds there must be one and, in the process, loses his or her God-given peace.

    It is hard to say that one can live in peace while facing death, while starving, while being insulted and slandered... but ultimately, our own perception, our rules and standards, which are even the atheists' GOD are the only barrier to perpetual peace. It is never an external devil, demon or God that impedes!

    I leave you with The Enlightened One's words on the matter:

    *"Ah, happily do we live without hate, amongst those who hate us; amidst the hateful, we dwell unhating." -The Buddha, from The Dhammapada

    *It is ultimately we who decide to react, and deprive ourselves of bliss, usually out of habit and ignorance, related to our rules for dealing with things. No rules, my friend!

    PEACE & LOVE, Brother
    +1

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    It's tough. We easily dismiss others, but, even when we're so very wrong, we do not easily dismiss ourselves. We: I, you and the rest of the world, all struggle with this. Challenging our assertions, our beliefs, with no regard for ourselves, is the only way to break through to total peace and freedom.

    And it requires deep contemplation on who we are, what we know and if we really know what we think we know. There is great merit in admitting complete error and ignorance and, as a result, pursuing truth, in spite of ourselves. It took me years of studying many disciplines to learn this.

    Lay down your rules, conditions and standards, soften your hearts, seek with as great an inner space as possible, so that you can be filled with as much truth as possible.

    Belief is not spirituality. The atheist does well to reject the practice of belief for belief's sake. He errs only in that he does not take on the challenge of understanding the concepts that belief often neglects or fails to understand (true spirituality): real peace, love, compassion and redemption. These, I say, are real and worth both the theist and the atheist's time and attention.

    I struggle with these myself, at times, but I have experienced the bliss of submitting to these, of ending resistance (whether in the form of religious or atheist zeal) and finding that which is tangible and goes beyond self, belief and that which is measureable.

    Strive in earnest.

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    Og,


    You can spin your words as majestical as you wish, so long as you continue to ignore the fact that all of Jesus teachings are to lead people to God, you will misapply them.


    You do not believe Jehovah is God. Jesus does. Jesus is the universe' foremost Jehovah's witness. He too knocked on doors preaching the same news we are. So I guess he stopped seeking as well?


    Jesus also told his disciples to preach the good news, from door to door, house to house. So because they did that, does it mean they stopped seeking? No. in fact, because they are doing God's will by preaching the news, you are indeed seeking him. Because it shows your faith that he is true.


    The bible has it's own theme, and it certainly does not include philosophy 101 by Ogknicksfan.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Og,


    You can spin your words as majestical as you wish, so long as you continue to ignore the fact that all of Jesus teachings are to lead people to God, you will misapply them.


    You do not believe Jehovah is God. Jesus does. Jesus is the universe' foremost Jehovah's witness. He too knocked on doors preaching the same news we are. So I guess he stopped seeking as well?


    Jesus also told his disciples to preach the good news, from door to door, house to house. So because they did that, does it mean they stopped seeking? No. in fact, because they are doing God's will by preaching the news, you are indeed seeking him. Because it shows your faith that he is true.


    The bible has it's own theme, and it certainly does not include philosophy 101 by Ogknicksfan.
    I'm not even going to get into the personal stuff. I have not mentioned your faith (something on which I have no position), focusing instead on the need for us to listen to Jesus and not read his words with a mind burdened with prejudice and self-interest.

    You believe Jesus is God or God's son, and many such ones make it their business to obey, but I say it is also your business to truly listen. I see great wisdom in Jesus' message, so I listen to what he tells us about life, about peace, about compassion, etc., unencumbered by the complications that can be created by blind belief.

    This has nothing to do with "philosophy," a code word used by Jehovah's Witnesses (I have friends in the religion) to refer to the thoughts of those involved in Satan's system of things (everyone who is not a JW). Quote one statement I have made on Jesus that is false and prove it so, biblically. I am simply quoting Jesus' wisdom, not rules from the old testament. The religious often lose themselves in rules, missing the essential component to Jesus' teaching: self-transformation and truth.

    My proposal is that we listen to him, whether we're Christians or not, and not just read to reinforce ourselves or others (e.g., magazine or science writers). Sure, magazines have value and should be read... but I think one must inwardly and outwardly shut up and read, with no hidden ends in mind, in order to understand the source itself, Jesus, in this case. Anything else logically makes us unqualified to speak on Jesus.

    Basically, let's listen to Jesus for what he has to say and not for what we have to say. This does not mean anything but that we will really understand his message, so it is something Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, Christians, etc., can do.

    Finally, remember that Jesus refused to condemn others, in every instance in which his disciples did. How much less would you or anyone else know about right or wrong, from Jesus' perspective?! We cannot know how Jesus would feel about anyone, even by applying the bible, because he based his ways on fairness and on individual circumstance, not rules.

    God Bless
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Jan 07, 2011 at 11:43.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    I'm not even going to get into the personal stuff. I have not mentioned your faith (something on which I have no position), focusing instead on the need for us to listen to Jesus and not read his words with a mind burdened with prejudice and self-interest.

    You believe Jesus is God or God's son, and many such ones make it their business to obey, but I say it is also your business to truly listen. I see great wisdom in Jesus' message, so I listen to what he tells us about life, about peace, about compassion, etc., unencumbered by the complications that can be created by blind belief.

    This has nothing to do with "philosophy," a code word used by Jehovah's Witnesses (I have friends in the religion) to refer to the thoughts of those involved in Satan's system of things (everyone who is not a JW). Quote one statement I have made on Jesus that is false and prove it so, biblically. I am simply quoting Jesus' wisdom, not rules from the old testament. The religious often lose themselves in rules, missing the essential component to Jesus' teaching: self-transformation and truth.

    My proposal is that we listen to him, whether we're Christians or not, and not just read to reinforce ourselves or others (e.g., magazine or science writers). Sure, magazines have value and should be read... but I think one must inwardly and outwardly shut up and read, with no hidden ends in mind, in order to understand the source itself, Jesus, in this case. Anything else logically makes us unqualified to speak on Jesus.

    Basically, let's listen to Jesus for what he has to say and not for what we have to say. This does not mean anything but that we will really understand his message, so it is something Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, Christians, etc., can do.

    Finally, remember that Jesus refused to condemn others, in every instance in which his disciples did. How much less would you or anyone else know about right or wrong, from Jesus' perspective?! We cannot know how Jesus would feel about anyone, even by applying the bible, because he based his ways on fairness and on individual circumstance, not rules.

    God Bless
    1st, JW do not blindly believe anything. God sent us the greatest teacher in human history, so that we could clearly comprehend his message.


    2nd, when ever a person says "I believe" or" my proposal is" and it usually entails a philosophical viewpoint.

    If you are gonna quote Jesus wisdom, as you say, you should then apply it to what his message was. Otherwise you run the risk of perverting it into your own philosophical viewpoint. Not what you want it to mean to you, but for what it is.

    And if you really wanted to listen to Jesus, you would be a Jehovahs witness, because that is what every single person who truly listens to him becomes. Are you listening?

    Jesus message refers to those who want to serve his God and Father, Jehovah. Not budha, Krishna, or any other god. However, if u are speaking on purely the good of the message, regardless of faith, I understand u better. However it will still be misapplied if one does not seek Jehovah, whom Jesus came to preach of.

    And lastly, not condemning anyone. I am simply standing firm in my faith and teachings. Sometimes that means stepping on toes, which jesus did plenty of times to the false teachers and philosophers of his day.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    1st, JW do not blindly believe anything. God sent us the greatest teacher in human history, so that we could clearly comprehend his message.


    2nd, when ever a person says "I believe" or" my proposal is" and it usually entails a philosophical viewpoint.

    If you are gonna quote Jesus wisdom, as you say, you should then apply it to what his message was. Otherwise you run the risk of perverting it into your own philosophical viewpoint. Not what you want it to mean to you, but for what it is.

    And if you really wanted to listen to Jesus, you would be a Jehovahs witness, because that is what every single person who truly listens to him becomes. Are you listening?

    Jesus message refers to those who want to serve his God and Father, Jehovah. Not budha, Krishna, or any other god. However, if u are speaking on purely the good of the message, regardless of faith, I understand u better. However it will still be misapplied if one does not seek Jehovah, whom Jesus came to preach of.

    And lastly, not condemning anyone. I am simply standing firm in my faith and teachings. Sometimes that means stepping on toes, which jesus did plenty of times to the false teachers and philosophers of his day.

    I would call it unwise to make broad statements about JW's. Just as you would not want to be associated with a JW who abuses his family, you should not associate what might be your faith with one who might have a different sort of faith.

    My use of the words proposal and belief were used in context of certain challenges, which you continue to evade, concerning approaching the bible with humility and innocence, to read to understand the speaker and not to understand yourself or the authors of whatever literature you read. It was suggested to all who read the bible, not just Christians, but you choose to take it personally. Here, Jesus backs up what I have called us to do...
    • "You have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father."
    Here, Jesus, while speaking to some Jews, tells men what I have been saying... he is trying to speak his wisdom to them, but they only hear themselves or someone else (their "father"). Likewise, many of us have no room for his word, because our hearts are burdened with what others tell us.

    As for Jesus being an individual's or organization's teacher, I think that whether this is the case or not depends upon the individual and not his religious membership. Jesus is much more my teacher, for example, than he is that of many so-called Christians and their organizations. How so?

    I read my bible on my own, search for the speaker and his message, without intermediaries, without interpretations, which is what Jesus asked for people to do. Priests, elders, reverends, as wise as they may be, could only speak to me as peers, who I am aware can err, not as ultimate authorities over words that Jesus beckoned me to understand for myself.

    Because I strive to be free from all spiritual authority of this kind, my heart is unburdened in my approach: I come to Jesus like a little child, which is what he asked of us, and speak to others in the same way. Here is the light's words on the matter...
    • “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." - Jesus, Matthew 18
    The innocence of the child is not found in rules or membership. What little child do you know who partakes and glories in either? And clearly, Jesus tells us that we can find heaven and him now... by welcoming the child, i.e., innocence.

    And again, you do not know what Jesus will or will not do. Not even his apostles were beyond committing error, when it came to figuring out Jesus' opinions. Do you consider yourself or your organization to have excelled the apostles in understanding Jesus' judgment? I am sure you do not.

    Therefore, go in peace, friend, and truly let Jesus make up his own mind about me and the rest of the world.


    PEACE & LOVE to all.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Jan 07, 2011 at 18:15.

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