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Thread: what does the bible really teach?

  1. #136
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Bottom line is, you cannot tell me you have a better understanding of something I try and base my life around, without answering my questions. Obviously, these questions hold relevance. If indeed you do have a higher understanding of what I believe, it should be relatively easy to answer them. It sounds like an excuse "I know more than you and the rules of the watchtower, but I won't talk with you about it, because your questions are loaded". You know what I think? I think you don't have a clue in the world abt half of what you claim you do, biblically speaking. You say "i look beyond jesus words, so I know more than most Christians". Jesus taught his followers to pray for the kingdom to come. You are against God's kingdom coming, because it will Kill 99% of the population. Jesus knocked on doors to make Jehovah's name known, and told his followers to do the same. Do you do that? So these two examples is why I can't help but ask.. How the hell do you think you are more Christian, than a person who does what Jesus asks? That's nuts dude, seriously. I can live with you and ur philosophies. But when you take biblically, then I have to see what you know. And it's a whole lot less then you claim, IMO. However, if you can make sense of the questions I asked, I would change my mind on that.


    As far as personally goes, you think i'm blind and cannot see the clear, sybliminal backbiting you do in your postings? You have not had any sarcastic tone in your posts, huh? This what I mean abt you. Cut it out, man. "im gonna make a thread on spirituality, hopefully it doesn't suck". You were just saying that to be sayin it, huh? Please man, stop it.

    NOT answering according to how a person wishes Is not a dodge.

    And lastly, JW share a universal belief in God's word. We believe God is right, therefore JW beliefs cannot ever be deemed self righteous. You however, love to tell us how you think, what you have found, how much more you know, yoh knows more than christians, etc. all the things you claim JW and other sects are bound by rules, you ignore the fact that Jesus was too! He had to obey God's rules as well. So how is it, you feel u don't have to? Because you ain't trying to serve God, self righteous people never do.
    When I said that I hoped my thread would not suck, I was referring to my ability to make a good thread. It had nothing to do with you or your thread. You simply imagine enemies, when there are none; but that makes sense, since the watchtower is constantly making the world into enemies of the organization, when people are simply indifferent to it.

    My reason for saying most Christians do not understand Jesus is because of their conduct and their focus. Their conduct speaks for itself. As for their focus, Jesus was focused on love, not rules, or gain or loss of that which belongs to the physical realm, thus he broke the sabbath, broke rules on touching women, broke the commandment on vengeance (eye for an eye), broke the commandment on punishing adulterous women [with death], etc.

    Your questions are textbook out of the watchtower: you want me to expound on 144,000, for example. I'm not interested in wasting time providing an answer that you cannot, and will not, even respect, because it's supposedly from Satan' and, as you are taught, only the watchtower has the right answers [when it comes to the bible], so it's almost a done deal you, an ardent witness, will not respect my answers.

    Moreover, I'm not interested in teaching people the bible. The bible teaches itself, what I have pointed out is Jesus' way to understanding it: come to him with innocence (like a little child, with no pretense), obey the command to love, to live peacefully, inwardly, not just playing the part of peace and love. There's no point for me to answer your questions, if you have ears but do not hear: you hear what is within yourself, not what is said or written.

    My recommendation is you, and others, study the bible for yourself, listen to Jesus on his terms, not the watchtower's or anyone else's. So, it's up to you and others to either listen to Jesus or listen to the failed middlemen (Charles Taze Russell and others) and their cynical counterparts (Bill Maher and other angry anti-religion figures).

    PEACE.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Jan 26, 2011 at 14:24.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    When I said that I hoped it would not suck, I was referring to my ability to make a good thread. It had nothing to do with you or your thread. You simply imagine enemies, when there are none; but that makes sense, since the watchtower is constantly making the world into enemies of the organization, when people are simply indifferent to it.

    My reason for saying most Christians do not understand Jesus is because of their conduct and their focus. Jesus was focused on love, not rules, gain or loss of the physical, thus he broke the sabbath, broke rules on touching women, broke the commandment on vengeance, broke the commandment on punishing adulterous women, etc.

    Your questions are textbook out of the watchtower: you want me to expound on 144,000, for example. I'm not interested in wasting time answering a question that you cannot, and will not, even respect, because it's supposedly from Satan and, as you are taught, only the watchtower has the right answers [when it comes to the bible].

    Moreover, I'm not interested in teaching people the bible. The bible teaches itself, what I have pointed out is Jesus' way to understanding it: come to him with innocence (like a little child, with no pretense), to obey the command to love, to live peacefully, inwardly, and not just playing the part of peace and love. There's no point for me to answer your questions, if you have ears but do not hear: you hear what is within yourself, not what is said or written.

    My recommendation is you, and others, study the bible for yourself, listen to Jesus on his terms, not the watchtower's or anyone else's. So, it's up to you and others to either listen to Jesus or listen to the failed middlemen and their cynical counterparts.

    PEACE.
    Now ya double talking me. Did you not openly invite me to speak with you concerning the bible? Must I really refer back to that specific post?

    Aslo, since you listen so much to Jesus, why are you not preaching the news of the Kingdom? Why do you not Pray to Jehovah, like he said to? Why do you not wish to teach God's word, like Jesus commanded his followers to do? Why do you dodge these questions?

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    Mat28;18
    And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19
    Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20
    teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

    Is it fair to say Jesus is instructing those who listen to him to teach others how to follow him, by observing God's commandments(rules)? And if they did that, he would be with them even til the time of the end?(I.e they would be God'people)? I think even ther most pessimistic individual would agree thats the gist of these verses. Do you agree/disagree?

    Mat 6:9
    “YOU must pray, then, this way:
    “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10
    Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.

    Is its safe to say by this model prayer, that the sanctification of Jehovah's name should hold the most weight of a servant of God, according to Jesus? Is it fair to say that Jesus thinks his followers should pray for the Kingdom of God to come, which would rid the earth of wickedness,ushering a new order of righteousness? Is it fair to think if jesus told his followers to pray for these things, he prayed for them too?

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    Knicks4Lyfe, do you realize how much this religious dogma is limiting to you? You're not open to any other information. Your mind is a closed book.

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Knicks4Lyfe, do you realize how much this religious dogma is limiting to you? You're not open to any other information. Your mind is a closed book.
    Lol always shocks me when u post here, my dude.

    I'm very open to other information. In fact, contrary to what people here say abt JW, we are very informed people. We are scientists, lawyers, dr's, poets, sports nuts, things of that nature. We are not against new findings, new freedoms of expression, progression in scientific data. What we are against is any form of these things, turning into forms of unrighteousness, that can dull our Christian senses, and take the focus of serving God acceptably. If you would read a copy of out awake magazines, you could clearly see the diverse info in them to show some of the things in life that JW show interest in keeping up with. They just take appropriate back seat to our relationship with ther most high. I'm certain you can understand that

  6. #141
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Mat28;18
    And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19
    Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20
    teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

    Is it fair to say Jesus is instructing those who listen to him to teach others how to follow him, by observing God's commandments(rules)? And if they did that, he would be with them even til the time of the end?(I.e they would be God'people)? I think even ther most pessimistic individual would agree thats the gist of these verses. Do you agree/disagree?

    Mat 6:9
    “YOU must pray, then, this way:
    “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10
    Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.

    Is its safe to say by this model prayer, that the sanctification of Jehovah's name should hold the most weight of a servant of God, according to Jesus? Is it fair to say that Jesus thinks his followers should pray for the Kingdom of God to come, which would rid the earth of wickedness,ushering a new order of righteousness? Is it fair to think if jesus told his followers to pray for these things, he prayed for them too?
    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Knicks4Lyfe, do you realize how much this religious dogma is limiting to you? You're not open to any other information. Your mind is a closed book.
    I think Metro has said what LJ, me and ABCD, have tried to tell you, in a nutshell. Your questions, biblical citations, etc., are self-limiting and exclusionary of others.

    Your biblical quotes are based on your doctrine of salvation by works and the use of the name Jehovah, which is an anglicized version of YHWH, not even the name itself. I'm not interested in arguing rules, or the points that help JW's think they're the only ones right about God or are the true Christians/true religion.

    Jesus regularly broke rules, for the sake of people. And JW's risk one another's lives for the sake of a non-biblical rule on blood transfusions.

    I'm riding with Jesus: divine grace saving all beings and the kingdom of God being within us.

    You should come along.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    I think Metro has said what LJ, me and ABCD, have tried to tell you, in a nutshell. Your questions, biblical citations, etc., are self-limiting and exclusionary of others.

    Your biblical quotes are based on your doctrine of salvation by works and the use of the name Jehovah, which is an anglicized version of YHWH, not even the name itself. I'm not interested in arguing rules, or the points that help JW's think they're the only ones right about God or are the true Christians/true religion.

    Jesus regularly broke rules, for the sake of people. And JW's risk one another's lives for the sake of a non-biblical rule on blood transfusions.

    I'm riding with Jesus: divine grace saving all beings and the kingdom of God being within us.

    You should come along.
    So what it's my religious doctrine, apparently, the Kingdom being within you is part of yours. Evolution is LJ's and so forth and so on.


    Question, if God's Kingdom is within you, how do you plan on crushing all Governments, and lasting indefinately? As spoken of here?

    Dan 2:44
    “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

    And here, jesus words on this Kingdom
    Mat 6:10 10
    Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.

    It appears to me that God's kIngdom is more likely an actual government, rather than something that dwells inside of people. How can one set up a Kingdom inside of them? What?
    why would Jesus tell us to pray for God's kingdom to come, if it's already inside of his disciples?

    Now, JW have made this matter pretty easy to understand for me. God's Kingdom is a real government, with Jesus as God's chosen King. Since it's the kingdom of the heavens, it obviously cannot be passed on to any humans, because we can't go to heaven. Jesus cannot die, which helps that belief, being it says it will be an indefinately lasting kingdom.

    What's your take?
    Last edited by Knicks4lyfe; Jan 26, 2011 at 20:03.

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    Also, Jesus never broke rules, of he did, he would have been considered a sinner. The overview of the Mosaic law is love. No one exhibited that more readily than Jesus.

  9. #144
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    So what it's my religious doctrine, apparently, the Kingdom being within you is part of yours. Evolution is LJ's and so forth and so on.


    Question, if God's Kingdom is within you, how do you plan on crushing all Governments, and lasting indefinately? As spoken of here?

    Dan 2:44
    “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

    And here, jesus words on this Kingdom
    Mat 6:10 10
    Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.

    It appears to me that God's kIngdom is more likely an actual government, rather than something that dwells inside of people. How can one set up a Kingdom inside of them? What?
    why would Jesus tell us to pray for God's kingdom to come, if it's already inside of his disciples?

    Now, JW have made this matter pretty easy to understand for me. God's Kingdom is a real government, with Jesus as God's chosen King. Since it's the kingdom of the heavens, it obviously cannot be passed on to any humans, because we can't go to heaven. Jesus cannot die, which helps that belief, being it says it will be an indefinately lasting kingdom.

    What's your take?
    Luke 17:

    "Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.'"

    The divine would not equate its kingdom with human conceptions and creations. It has none of the motivations, interests, etc., that plague mankind. So... no, I don't think it's a physical kingdom that is spoken of.

    Rather, an inner kingdom, spread through the flowering, and teaching, of real love, peace and self-denial, as well as a rejection of worldliness, is the emergence of the real kingdom, within men. This is so for all spiritual people, regardless of the book they use, as long as the way is laid out for them, therein. The gospels and epistles, amongst other books, certainly lay out the way.

    And that which makes sense is not necessarily true. As Jesus says, a good tree is known by its fruits. And the goodness of "fruits" are not known by human measure, by the superficially apparent. Rather, it is known by the inner/outer kingdom Jesus and the other great teachers speak of.

    Spirituality is not about hanging on, for a promise's sake. Rather, it is about working tirelessly, until one tangibly finds the immutable love and peace Jesus and his apostles have spoken of.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Luke 17:

    "Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.'"

    The divine would not equate its kingdom with human conceptions and creations. It has none of the motivations, interests, etc., that plague mankind. So... no, I don't think it's a physical kingdom that is spoken of.

    Rather, an inner kingdom, spread through the flowering, and teaching, of real love, peace and self-denial, as well as a rejection of worldliness, is the emergence of the real kingdom, within men. This is so for all spiritual people, regardless of the book they use, as long as the way is laid out for them, therein. The gospels and epistles, amongst other books, certainly lay out the way.

    And that which makes sense is not necessarily true. As Jesus says, a good tree is known by its fruits. And the goodness of "fruits" are not known by human measure, by the superficially apparent. Rather, it is known by the inner/outer kingdom Jesus and the other great teachers speak of.

    Spirituality is not about hanging on, for a promise's sake. Rather, it is about working tirelessly, until one tangibly finds the immutable love and peace Jesus and his apostles have spoken of.
    Now, you're speaking my language

    While I respect your vp, one thing I think you are missing is the fact jesus said it cannot be observed, 1) and being on your midst 2)

    Since the Kingdom of God is in heaven, Jesus was right when he said it cannot be observed. We cannot see heaven to observe the actual kingdom.

    So what does he mean when he says in your midst? He as God's chosen King, was already in thier midst, and they didn't recognize. Something being within you, abds something within your midst, are different, correct?

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    When Will God’s Kingdom Come?


    “LORD, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) The apostles were eager to know when Jesus would establish his Kingdom. Today, some 2,000 years later, people are still eager to know: When will God’s Kingdom come?
    Since Jesus made the Kingdom the theme of his preaching, you might expect that he discussed this question. And indeed he did! He spoke extensively about a marked period of time that he called his “presence.” (Matthew 24:37) That presence is closely tied to the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom. What is this presence? Let us consider four truths the Bible reveals about the presence of Christ.

    1. Christ’s presence would begin a long time after his death. Jesus gave an illustration in which he likened himself to a man who “traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power,” or to “secure a kingdom.” (Luke 19:12; footnote) How was that prophetic illustration fulfilled? Well, Jesus died and was resurrected; then he traveled to the “distant land,” that is, heaven. As Jesus foretold in a similar illustration, his return in kingly power would come only “after a long time.”—Matthew 25:19.

    Some years after Jesus ascended to heaven, the apostle Paul wrote: “This man [Jesus] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.” (Hebrews 10:12,*13) So a lengthy period of waiting followed Jesus’ arrival in heaven. The wait finally ended when Jehovah God made his Son the King of the long-promised Messianic Kingdom. That was when Christ’s presence began. Would humans on earth see this momentous event?

    2. The presence is invisible to human eyes. Remember, Jesus discussed the sign of his presence. (Matthew 24:3) If his presence were visible to human eyes, would a sign be needed? To illustrate: Imagine that you are traveling to see the ocean. You may see road signs directing you along the way, but once you are at the shore, standing at the water’s edge with the vast expanse of water stretching out to the horizon, would you expect to see a sign with a big arrow pointing ahead, emblazoned with the word “Ocean”? Of course not! Why have a sign to point out what you can easily identify with your eyes?
    Jesus described the sign of his presence, not to point out something that humans could see with their eyes, but to help them discern something that would occur in heaven. Thus, Jesus said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” (Luke 17:20) How, then, would the sign show those on earth that Christ’s presence had begun?

    3. Jesus’ presence would be marked by a time of profound troubles here on earth. Jesus said that his presence as King in heaven would be marked on earth by wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences, and lawlessness. (Matthew 24:7-12; Luke 21:10,*11) What would cause all this misery? The Bible explains that Satan, “the ruler of this world,” is full of rage because he knows that his time is very short now that Christ’s presence as King has begun. (John 12:31; Revelation 12:9,*12) Such visible evidence of Satan’s rage and of Christ’s presence has been abundant in our time. Especially since 1914, a year that historians acknowledge was a turning point, has this evidence appeared on an unprecedented and global scale.
    All of that may sound like bad news, but it is not. It means that the Messianic Kingdom is ruling now in heaven. Very soon, that government will exercise its rule right here over all the earth. How, though, would people know about that Kingdom in order to accept its rule and become its subjects?
    The bad news we hear every day proves that good things are coming soon

    4. Jesus’ presence is marked by a global preaching work. Jesus said that his presence would be like “the days of Noah.”* (Matthew 24:37-39) Noah was more than an ark builder; he was also “a preacher of righteousness.” (2*Peter 2:5) Noah warned people that a judgment from God was on its way. Jesus said that his followers on earth would be doing something similar during his presence. He prophesied: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”—Matthew 24:14.

    As we saw in the preceding article, God’s Kingdom will destroy all the governments of this world. The preaching work alerts people that this heavenly government is about to act, giving all an opportunity to escape the coming destruction and become subjects of that Kingdom. The key question, then, is, How will you respond?

    Will God’s Kingdom Mean Good News for You?
    The message that Jesus preached was one of incomparable hope. After the rebellion in Eden thousands of years ago, Jehovah God purposed to form a government that would set matters right, returning faithful humans to the condition that God had in mind for them from the start—life eternal in a paradise here on earth. What could be more thrilling than the knowledge that this long-promised government is ruling right now in heaven? It is not some remote, abstract concept but a living reality!
    Now, God’s appointed King is ruling in the midst of his enemies. (Psalm 110:2) In this corrupt world alienated from God, the Messiah is fulfilling his Father’s desire to search out all who want to come to know God as he really is and to worship him “with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) The hope of living forever under the rule of God’s Kingdom is available to people of all races, ages, and social backgrounds. (Acts 10:34,*35) We urge you to take hold of the marvelous opportunity before you. Learn about God’s Kingdom now, so that you can enjoy living under its righteous rule forever!—1*John 2:17.

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    The translation I used, "the new international version," has a footnote: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Or is within you. The King James Version reads,
    • "21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you," with no footnote.
    Most translations use "within you" in the main text. When one considers the entire theme of the gospels and epistles, it is clear that Jesus is speaking of inner transformation, fruits, etc. This inner kingdom is proof of Jesus' divine state for people interested in determining the truth and practicality of his message.

    Jesus is called the light of the world, I am sure you know. In Matthew 6 he speaks of the light within.
    • 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
    I'm sure you agree this is not speaking of disabled, blind people. It is speaking of those who see, and understand, his message and are thus graced with light (Jesus' kingdom and presence) within, versus those who cannot see. Most Christians, from my experience, cannot see: they worry about things of the world, appearance, money, power, etc., and even pray for it.

    You asked how an inner kingdom can crush the governments of today. If you believe in literal governments as the enemy of God and man, then maybe a divine comet would have to destroy them.

    However, if you believe, as written in Ephesians 2, that we are both "made alive with Christ" (kingdom is within) and brought to life by the grace of being guided to overcome evil thoughts and behaviors (the inner opposition to the kingdom), the worldly "governments," represented by greed, hate, etc., are thus destroyed in us (which is where they come from) and love and Christ are made alive with us (the kingdom of God)
    • "3 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."
    • "7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. [grace]"
    And so... although you say the world is disgusting, Jesus and the holy spirit say it can be redeemed, one can be made alive and truly happy (not just playing the role of such), now, by surrender to divine grace and, out of a ceasing in faith in worldliness (not hatred of it, but simple lack of interest in it), forsaking of evil thoughts and behaviors.

    I think some Christian groups tell their followers, because of clergy's general lack of skill and true connection to God, that the kingdom is some place that is found by waiting for Armageddon. This is easy and keeps some quiet and full of rationalizations as to why they do not currently feel the happiness and peace promised.

    The truth is that a bunch of bitter, angry, unchanged people going into a physical kingdom makes no sense. It is love and grace [received by losing interest in the world] that will save and change them, i.e., bring them the kingdom that no one need wait for, now.

    As for Jesus not breaking commandments:
    • 21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]][[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]] will be subject to judgment."
    • 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]]39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
    • 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
    • 4 and [they] said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him7... When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
    The scriptures Jesus refers to, over and over, are found in the old testament and call for blood vengeance, talk about exclusively loving your neighbor, "those among you," etc. He rejected these, so, Jesus was clearly not attached to these rules but to love and service.

    PEACE.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Jan 27, 2011 at 15:04.

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    Just good last post,

    The context of mat 6 seems to suggest a seeking of God's kingdom. Jesus told us to pray that it comes in verse 9.
    And in verses 33, 34;
    “Keep on, then, seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness, and all these [other] things will be added to YOU. 34
    So, never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Sufficient for each day is its own badness.

    Verse 22 that you quoted concerning the lamp of the eye, has more to do with keeping one's life simple, focused on storing up treasures in heaven, with God, rather then trying to get rich on earth. Take these surrounding verses:

    19
    “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. 20
    Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21
    For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

    Then comes 22. After:24
    “No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. YOU cannot slave for God and for Riches.

    Then he goes on to talk abt God taking care of the birds, making sure they eat everyday, how much more would he take care if those seeking him first, rather than those being overly anxious abt things they need, or want in life, which would be the opposite of keeping one's eye simply focused on God.

    And you are also failing to realize the orginal purpose God, which was to have mankind live in peace on earth, in worship of him. God setting up a Kingdom in heaven, that people proclaim, harmonizes with his grand purpose, perfectly.

    And what of Jesus promises to his apostles that they would rule with him as kings over the earth? Why would he say such things if this Kingdom was not going to be a reality?

    John 14:2In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3
    Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.

    That's obviously heaven.

    Rev 5:10Revelation 5:10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

    Speaking of Jesus selecting his disciples to rule with him over earth.

    Rev 20Revelation 20:4
    4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.
    Revelation 20:6,5
    6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
    5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

    2 Corinthians 4:14 knowing that he who raised Jesus up will raise us up also together with Jesus and will present us together with <span class="smallcaps">YOU</span>.

    RevRevelation 14:1,2,3
    1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps.
    3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

    The evidence is overwhelming, the bible teaches God's kingdom is an actual government, that will rule over the earth.

  14. #149
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    Well, I respectfully disagree with your (and the WTS's) interpretation of scripture, like you disagree with mine. That's fine.

    I think the difference between us is that I am more interested in the mystical aspects of the bible: the teachings on being brought to life (spiritually), the inner death of we who live in transgressions, divine grace, bearing the cross daily (i.e., suffering willingly), unconditional love, etc. If I'm not mistaken, you're more interested in the end of the world and doing what you feel you must to be saved [at that time], which was Russell's focus.

    I'm also not a member of any religion or sect, which means I have no duty to consider the legalistic aspects, if any, of Christianity or any other religion, though I appreciate many of its pure spiritual (not rules-based) teachings or interpretations.

    Here is an excerpt from The Imitation of Christ, which I hope you will read, though I have had Witness friends make a big deal about reading any spiritual writings not from the WT. It goes into the mystical aspect of Christianity that interests me, if you'd like to know the type of books it comes from.
    • The Eighth Chapter: The Imitation of Christ, by Thomas a Kempis
    THE INTIMATE FRIENDSHIP OF JESUS
    • "WHEN Jesus is near, all is well and nothing seems difficult. When He is absent, all is hard. When Jesus does not speak within, all other comfort is empty, but if He says only a word, it brings great consolation. Did not Mary Magdalen rise at once from her weeping when Martha said to her: "The Master is come, and calleth for thee"?[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Happy is the hour when Jesus calls one from tears to joy of spirit. How dry and hard you are without Jesus! How foolish and vain if you desire anything but Him! Is it not a greater loss than losing the whole world? For what, without Jesus, can the world give you? Life without Him is a relentless hell, but living with Him is a sweet paradise. If Jesus be with you, no enemy can harm you. He who finds Jesus finds a rare treasure, indeed, a good above every good, whereas he who loses Him loses more than the whole world. The man who lives without Jesus is the poorest of the poor, whereas no one is so rich as the man who lives in His grace."
    PEACE
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Jan 27, 2011 at 15:06.

  15. #150
    12th man
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    Don't get me wrong.

    The Bible has a LOT of great ideas on life itself and they should be utilized in a positive way for humanity.

    But to close the BOOK on it and expect people to only follow and "obey" that book, but not be allowed to challenge those ideas or open new information that is helpful to humanity and the progression and advancement of mandkind is just against nature. IMO.

    If the bible was open to challenge, discussion and being proven wrong, then I would embrace it purely because I feel thats what it should be and they shouldnt take OFFENSE to that.

    THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SAYING.

    "I don't know".

    I am not a genius or the smartest guy in the world, I don't want to be. I rather continue to search for knowledge and keep my mind unlimited for information. It may not be the SAFEST feeling because I know people like to feel SAFE and when something new is presented you feel vunerlable. I see some people use things like religion, sports, political parties as social groups for safety and feel like they belong somewhere.

    I don't blame them. We live in a scary world and thats the OUTCOME of this scary environment.

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