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Thread: what does the bible really teach?

  1. #181
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    Originally Posted by abcd
    It does directly say this:
    "He said: Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’
    Do not go after them."
    Luke 21:8(New World Translation)

    Jehovah's Witness end of the world predictions:
    1874, 1878, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1941, 1975, 1994
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    I presented the facts with sources to back them up. Knicks4lyfe claimed OGKnickfan had no biblical knowledge and that I learned zero.

    But surprisingly, the both of us have many quotes and sources to back up what we are saying.

    And yet Knicks4lyfe seems to keep quoting from the same Watchtower literature.
    Well I say you've learned nothing because your use of biblical verses shows it.

    Jesus also said this.

    Mat 7
    15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

    21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

    The two bolded verses are particularly important here. Because Jesus insinuates many will claim to have Christ, but only those who Do the will of Jehovah will actually enter into the Kingdom of the heavens.

    So the question is, smart guy, which group of people who claim Christianity can truly say that they do Jehovah's will? If it ain't Jehovah's witnesses, then it ain't nobody.

    This is why you are lost!

  2. #182
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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s

    I've read about this. Absolutely amazing/twisted and frightening. The Lord truly is a shepherd.
    Why should it be frightening? Have you even read the bible? A little bit?

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Well I say you've learned nothing because your use of biblical verses shows it.

    Jesus also said this.

    Mat 7
    15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

    21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

    The two bolded verses are particularly important here. Because Jesus insinuates many will claim to have Christ, but only those who Do the will of Jehovah will actually enter into the Kingdom of the heavens.

    So the question is, smart guy, which group of people who claim Christianity can truly say that they do Jehovah's will? If it ain't Jehovah's witnesses, then it ain't nobody.

    This is why you are lost!
    You failed to answer his post, in which Jesus predicts people will come, falsely claiming special status and that the time has come. It is a general description that could fit anyone, but JW's do have a history of failed predictions of the "spoken-of" time.

    As to your other point (on being the only ones to follow Jehovah, which I guess is something you claim you do alone because of your sect's heavy use of the name): in John 14: 6 Jesus answered [Thomas], “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

    Here, Jesus clearly says that you must go through him to get to Jehovah. It also says that to know Jesus is to know Jehovah. So, technically, other Christians who acknowledge Jesus are also acknowledging the father. These verses even go as far as saying that, by Thomas knowing Jesus, he has already known Jehovah.

    So... this makes the view of Jesus' deity, or lack thereof, of great importance. If Jesus is not an angel or archangel (see Hebrews 1:5-9), as JW's claim, their view may keep Witnesses from the way (as described by Jesus) to Jehovah. I can't say for sure. Just some food for thought.

    And again, do you have any retorts of my posts on oft-witnessed Jehovah Witness pride, regarding their alleged following of "the whole bible," when the holy spirit, through the apostles, stated that the old covenant, i.e., the old testament, was wrong? What about the mystical scriptures I posted, along with a definition of mysticism, is it not valid? And your organization's focus on "the letter," which kills, rather than "the spirit," which gives life, according to Paul, is that biblical?

    Let me know, by going through each scripture I have posted and showing, with the bible, how you or your organization interprets these.

    PEACE
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Feb 14, 2011 at 19:35.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Jesus says the following about your attack on my knowledge of him...
    Matthew 5
    • "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
    • If one does not live according to Jesus ways, how can you know him? You've heard of him, but knowing him requires action, according to mathew 7:22,23.
    Do not take this as a personal attack. Rather just one trying to make you aware of what it really means to Know Jesus according to his own words. It appears that Jesus is only in league with those who do his Father's will. You Don't want to know Jehovah, according to your own words. So tell me, how do you know Jesus?


    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Knicks4lyfe, you and all JW's I know say that you follow "the whole bible," implying others, who simply do not follow as you do, do not follow the bible correctly and are apostates.


    If that's the case, why do you use a bible which the Catholics assembled, by choosing the different scriptures contained in it? Why not follow the Greek Orthodox Bible, which contains many other books, not chosen for inclusion in the Catholic bible?

    Apostasy Definition:
    Apostasy is abandoning or deserting the worship and service of God, actually a rebellion against Jehovah God. Some apostates profess to know and serve God but reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible but reject Jehovah’s organization.

    Catholics turned from God, based on the fact that they have the completed Bible and do not adhere. That does not mean that their bible, or scriptures in it are fraudulent.

    I am admitedly not that verse in the inner specifics of how the NWT came to be. What I do know is that a very prominent Greek scholar,

    Jason David BeDuhn, said in 2003 that it is the most accurate bible on earth.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Furthermore, by saying you follow "the whole bible," you are breaking the new covenant, in which Paul states a new covenant exists because the old one was wrong. The scriptures I posted, which you refuse to explain, prove this is the case. I also do not see Jehovah Witnesses observing sabbath, which is required by the old testament scriptures.
    2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

    If what you say is true, as far as the Bible is concerned, this verse is a blatant contradiction to that sentiment. How can all scripture be beneficial if the old testament was wrong? It would have been a ginormous waste of time to even pen it, for that matter. The consensus is then, that the old testament does have relevance, and is equally as important for Christians as the new testament. Which is why Jesus and the Apostles quoted the old testament so much.

    Again, the bible makes much more sense when I listen to it, than when I listen to your philosophical viewpoint of it.



    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    As for mysticism, if you research it, Christianity is mystical in nature. The early Christians, which Jehovah Witnesses claim to be descended from, were mystics. If you really care about worshiping God and not merely obeying the Jehovah's Witnesses, you would take the time to either verify or disprove both the scripture posted, which says you are not to follow "the whole bible" and the meaning of mysticism (which involves direct experience, in the present, of divinity).

    And you continue to say that what you are commanded to do by elders makes sense, while I don't [when I have not commanded you to do anything]. I am not asking you to follow me. I am asking you to follow Christ and his apostle's message to love and be merciful. And this means following what makes sense to Christ, not to yourself or other men.

    So... why won't you answer these scriptures in the context of rules, mysticism (i.e., direct experience of God) and a true Christian being commanded by men, i.e., the governing body?
    • 1 Thessalonians Chapter 1:4 For we know, brothers and sisters[[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]] loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.
    • Colossians 2: 20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.
    • Hebrews 8: 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
    • Hebrews 8: 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
    • 2 Corinthians Chapter 3:You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
    These scriptures tell us that one is not to follow the whole bible, that the old covenant was wrong, that this new covenant is mystical, i.e., something "not of the letter," i.e., not contained in any books, scrolls, tablets, or magazines, but written on "tablets of human hearts."

    The holy spirit, via the apostle, goes as far as telling us that the letter (i.e., written language) kills, while the spirit "gives life," or brings us true spirituality. Because your books, just like those of any other legalistic religion, cannot embody this mystical union, you are deprived of a true connection with God.


    Law of God to Israel—The Law of Moses. Jehovah gave Israel the Law through Moses as mediator, in the Wilderness of Sinai, 1513 B.C.E. At the inauguration of the Law at Mount Horeb there was an awe-inspiring demonstration of Jehovah’s power. (Ex 19:16-19; 20:18-21; Heb 12:18-21, 25, 26) The covenant was validated by the blood of bulls and goats. The people presented communion offerings, and they heard the book of the covenant read to them, after which they agreed to be obedient to all that Jehovah had spoken. Many of the earlier patriarchal laws were incorporated in the Law given through Moses.—Ex 24:3-8; Heb 9:15-21; see COVENANT.
    The first five books of the Bible (Genesis through Deuteronomy) are often referred to as the Law. Sometimes this term is used with reference to the entire inspired Hebrew Scriptures. Generally, however, the Jews considered the entire Hebrew Scriptures to be composed of three sections, “the law of Moses,” “the Prophets,” and “Psalms.” (Lu 24:44) Commands that came through the prophets were binding upon Israel.

    Jehovah was identified in the Law as absolute Sovereign and also as King in a special way. Since Jehovah was both God and King of Israel, disobedience to the Law was both a religious offense and lèse-majesté, an offense against the Head of State, which in this case was against the King Jehovah. David, Solomon, and their successors on the throne of Judah were said to sit on “Jehovah’s throne.” (1Ch 29:23) Human kings and rulers in Israel were bound by the Law, and when they became despotic they were law violators accountable to God. (1Sa 15:22, 23) Kingship and priesthood were separate, this separation constituting a balance of power and a safeguard against tyranny. It kept the Israelites ever mindful that Jehovah was their God and real King. Each individual’s relationship to God and to his fellowman was defined by the Law, and each individual could approach God through the priestly arrangement.

    Under the Law, the Israelites could have become “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Ex 19:5, 6) The Law’s demands of exclusive devotion to Jehovah, its absolute prohibition of any form of interfaith, and its regulations concerning religious cleanness and diet constituted a “wall” to keep the nation outstandingly separate from other nations. (Eph 2:14) A Jew could hardly enter a Gentile tent or house or eat with Gentiles without becoming religiously unclean. In fact, when Jesus was on earth, even entering a Gentile house or building was thought to make a Jew unclean. (Joh 18:28; Ac 10:28) The sanctity of life and the dignity and honor of the family, of marriage, of person, were protected. Additional effects, which could be considered incidental to the religious separation that the Law covenant accomplished, were the health benefits and the protection from diseases common to the nations around the Israelites. The laws of moral cleanness, physical sanitation, and diet undoubtedly had a salutary effect when they were obeyed.

    But the real purpose of the Law was, as stated by the apostle Paul, “to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive.” It was a “tutor leading to Christ.” It pointed to Christ as the objective aimed at (“Christ is the end of the Law”). It revealed that all humans, including the Jews, are under sin and that life cannot be obtained by “works of law.” (Ga 3:19-24; Ro 3:20; 10:4) It was “spiritual,” from God, and “holy.” (Ro 7:12, 14) At Ephesians 2:15 it is called “the Law of commandments consisting in decrees.” It was a standard of perfection, marking the one who could keep it as perfect, worthy of life. (Le 18:5; Ga 3:12) Since imperfect humans could not keep the Law, it showed that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Ro 3:23) Only Jesus Christ kept it blamelessly.—Joh 8:46; Heb 7:26.

    The Law also served as “a shadow of the good things to come,” and things connected with it were “typical representations,” causing Jesus and the apostles to call upon it often to explain heavenly things and matters concerning Christian doctrine and conduct. Therefore, it provides an essential and necessary field of study for the Christian.—Heb 10:1; 9:23.
    Jesus said that the whole Law hung upon the two commandments, to love God and to love one’s neighbor. (Mt 22:35-40) It is interesting that in the book of Deuteronomy (where the Law was modified somewhat to govern Israel’s new circumstances upon settling in the Promised Land) the Hebrew words for “love,” “loved,” and so forth, appear more than 20 times.

    The Ten Words (Ex 34:28), or the Ten Commandments, were the basic part of the Law but were combined with about 600 other laws, all of which were of equal force and binding power upon the Israelites. (Jas 2:10) The first four of the Ten Commandments defined man’s relationship to God; the fifth, to God and to parents; and the last five, to one’s fellowman. These last five were named in apparent order of severity of harm done to one’s fellowman: murder, adultery, stealing, bearing false witness, and covetousness or selfish desire. The tenth commandment makes the Law unique in comparison with the laws of all other nations in that it prohibits selfish desire, a command in reality enforceable only by God. It actually got at the cause of violation of all the other commandments.—Ex 20:2-17; De 5:6-21; compare Eph 5:5; Col 3:5; Jas 1:14, 15; 1Jo 2:15-17.

    The Law contained many principles and guiding statutes. The judges were given latitude to investigate and consider motives and attitude of violators, along with the circumstances surrounding the violation. A deliberate, disrespectful, or unrepentant violator received the full penalty. (Nu 15:30, 31) In other cases a lighter judgment might be determined. For example, whereas a murderer was to be put to death without fail, an accidental manslayer could receive mercy. (Nu 35:15, 16) The owner of a bull that habitually gored people and that killed a man might die; or the judges might impose a ransom. (Ex 21:29-32) The difference between a deliberate thief and a wrongdoer who voluntarily confessed evidently accounts for the difference between the penalty stated at Exodus 22:7 and that of Leviticus 6:1-7.

    This explains why Paul would say in Hebrew 8:13 the law is obsolete.

    Now let's see if Christians were bound by 'rules' since the law is obsolete.

    “Law of the Christ.” Paul wrote: “Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.” (Ga 6:2) While the Law covenant was terminated at Pentecost, 33 C.E. (“since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law”; Heb 7:12), Christians come “under law toward Christ.” (1Co 9:21) This law is called “the perfect law that belongs to freedom,” “the law of a free people,” “the law of faith.” (Jas 1:25; 2:12; Ro 3:27) Such a new law had been foretold by God through the prophet Jeremiah when he spoke of a new covenant and the writing of his law on the hearts of his people.—Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:6-13.

    Like Moses, the mediator of the Law covenant, Jesus Christ is Mediator of the new covenant. Moses wrote the Law in code form, but Jesus did not personally put a law down in writing. He talked and put his law into the minds and hearts of his disciples. Neither did his disciples set down laws in the form of a code for Christians, classifying the laws into categories and subheadings. Nonetheless, the Christian Greek Scriptures are full of laws, commands, and decrees that the Christian is bound to observe.—Re 14:12; 1Jo 5:2, 3; 4:21; 3:22-24; 2Jo 4-6; Joh 13:34, 35; 14:15; 15:14.


    Jesus gave instruction to his disciples to preach the ‘good news of the kingdom.’ His command is found at Matthew 10:1-42; Luke 9:1-6; 10:1-12. At Matthew 28:18-20 a new command was given to Jesus’ disciples to go, not to the Jews only, but to all nations, to make disciples and baptize them with a new baptism, “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” Thus, with divine authorization Jesus taught and issued commands while on earth (Ac 1:1, 2) as well as after his ascension. (Ac 9:5, 6; Re 1:1-3) The entire book of Revelation consists of prophecies, commands, admonition, and instruction to the Christian congregation.

    The “law of the Christ” covers the whole course and scope of the Christian’s life and work. By the help of God’s spirit the Christian can follow the commands in order to be judged favorably by that law, for it is “the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus.”—Ro 8:2, 4.

    So you are wrong. Christians do have rules according to the bible. There will always be guidelines as to how Jehovah chosses to be worshipped. Stepping outside of that boundary is breaking the rules of true worship. There is no way around it, God has rules we must follow to be considered righteous. Period. End of discussion.


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    Animal Life: Lev. 11:6: “The hare . . . is a chewer of the cud.” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp. 159-163.



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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    If one does not live according to Jesus ways, how can you know him? You've heard of him, but knowing him requires action, according to mathew 7:22,23.[/list]Do not take this as a personal attack. Rather just one trying to make you aware of what it really means to Know Jesus according to his own words. It appears that Jesus is only in league with those who do his Father's will. You Don't want to know Jehovah, according to your own words. So tell me, how do you know Jesus?



    Apostasy Definition:
    Apostasy is abandoning or deserting the worship and service of God, actually a rebellion against Jehovah God. Some apostates profess to know and serve God but reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible but reject Jehovah’s organization.

    Catholics turned from God, based on the fact that they have the completed Bible and do not adhere. That does not mean that their bible, or scriptures in it are fraudulent.

    I am admitedly not that verse in the inner specifics of how the NWT came to be. What I do know is that a very prominent Greek scholar,

    Jason David BeDuhn, said in 2003 that it is the most accurate bible on earth.

    2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

    If what you say is true, as far as the Bible is concerned, this verse is a blatant contradiction to that sentiment. How can all scripture be beneficial if the old testament was wrong? It would have been a ginormous waste of time to even pen it, for that matter. The consensus is then, that the old testament does have relevance, and is equally as important for Christians as the new testament. Which is why Jesus and the Apostles quoted the old testament so much.

    Again, the bible makes much more sense when I listen to it, than when I listen to your philosophical viewpoint of it.




    Law of God to Israel—The Law of Moses. Jehovah gave Israel the Law through Moses as mediator, in the Wilderness of Sinai, 1513 B.C.E. At the inauguration of the Law at Mount Horeb there was an awe-inspiring demonstration of Jehovah’s power. (Ex 19:16-19; 20:18-21; Heb 12:18-21, 25, 26) The covenant was validated by the blood of bulls and goats. The people presented communion offerings, and they heard the book of the covenant read to them, after which they agreed to be obedient to all that Jehovah had spoken. Many of the earlier patriarchal laws were incorporated in the Law given through Moses.—Ex 24:3-8; Heb 9:15-21; see COVENANT.
    The first five books of the Bible (Genesis through Deuteronomy) are often referred to as the Law. Sometimes this term is used with reference to the entire inspired Hebrew Scriptures. Generally, however, the Jews considered the entire Hebrew Scriptures to be composed of three sections, “the law of Moses,” “the Prophets,” and “Psalms.” (Lu 24:44) Commands that came through the prophets were binding upon Israel.

    Jehovah was identified in the Law as absolute Sovereign and also as King in a special way. Since Jehovah was both God and King of Israel, disobedience to the Law was both a religious offense and lèse-majesté, an offense against the Head of State, which in this case was against the King Jehovah. David, Solomon, and their successors on the throne of Judah were said to sit on “Jehovah’s throne.” (1Ch 29:23) Human kings and rulers in Israel were bound by the Law, and when they became despotic they were law violators accountable to God. (1Sa 15:22, 23) Kingship and priesthood were separate, this separation constituting a balance of power and a safeguard against tyranny. It kept the Israelites ever mindful that Jehovah was their God and real King. Each individual’s relationship to God and to his fellowman was defined by the Law, and each individual could approach God through the priestly arrangement.

    Under the Law, the Israelites could have become “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Ex 19:5, 6) The Law’s demands of exclusive devotion to Jehovah, its absolute prohibition of any form of interfaith, and its regulations concerning religious cleanness and diet constituted a “wall” to keep the nation outstandingly separate from other nations. (Eph 2:14) A Jew could hardly enter a Gentile tent or house or eat with Gentiles without becoming religiously unclean. In fact, when Jesus was on earth, even entering a Gentile house or building was thought to make a Jew unclean. (Joh 18:28; Ac 10:28) The sanctity of life and the dignity and honor of the family, of marriage, of person, were protected. Additional effects, which could be considered incidental to the religious separation that the Law covenant accomplished, were the health benefits and the protection from diseases common to the nations around the Israelites. The laws of moral cleanness, physical sanitation, and diet undoubtedly had a salutary effect when they were obeyed.

    But the real purpose of the Law was, as stated by the apostle Paul, “to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive.” It was a “tutor leading to Christ.” It pointed to Christ as the objective aimed at (“Christ is the end of the Law”). It revealed that all humans, including the Jews, are under sin and that life cannot be obtained by “works of law.” (Ga 3:19-24; Ro 3:20; 10:4) It was “spiritual,” from God, and “holy.” (Ro 7:12, 14) At Ephesians 2:15 it is called “the Law of commandments consisting in decrees.” It was a standard of perfection, marking the one who could keep it as perfect, worthy of life. (Le 18:5; Ga 3:12) Since imperfect humans could not keep the Law, it showed that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Ro 3:23) Only Jesus Christ kept it blamelessly.—Joh 8:46; Heb 7:26.

    The Law also served as “a shadow of the good things to come,” and things connected with it were “typical representations,” causing Jesus and the apostles to call upon it often to explain heavenly things and matters concerning Christian doctrine and conduct. Therefore, it provides an essential and necessary field of study for the Christian.—Heb 10:1; 9:23.
    Jesus said that the whole Law hung upon the two commandments, to love God and to love one’s neighbor. (Mt 22:35-40) It is interesting that in the book of Deuteronomy (where the Law was modified somewhat to govern Israel’s new circumstances upon settling in the Promised Land) the Hebrew words for “love,” “loved,” and so forth, appear more than 20 times.

    The Ten Words (Ex 34:28), or the Ten Commandments, were the basic part of the Law but were combined with about 600 other laws, all of which were of equal force and binding power upon the Israelites. (Jas 2:10) The first four of the Ten Commandments defined man’s relationship to God; the fifth, to God and to parents; and the last five, to one’s fellowman. These last five were named in apparent order of severity of harm done to one’s fellowman: murder, adultery, stealing, bearing false witness, and covetousness or selfish desire. The tenth commandment makes the Law unique in comparison with the laws of all other nations in that it prohibits selfish desire, a command in reality enforceable only by God. It actually got at the cause of violation of all the other commandments.—Ex 20:2-17; De 5:6-21; compare Eph 5:5; Col 3:5; Jas 1:14, 15; 1Jo 2:15-17.

    The Law contained many principles and guiding statutes. The judges were given latitude to investigate and consider motives and attitude of violators, along with the circumstances surrounding the violation. A deliberate, disrespectful, or unrepentant violator received the full penalty. (Nu 15:30, 31) In other cases a lighter judgment might be determined. For example, whereas a murderer was to be put to death without fail, an accidental manslayer could receive mercy. (Nu 35:15, 16) The owner of a bull that habitually gored people and that killed a man might die; or the judges might impose a ransom. (Ex 21:29-32) The difference between a deliberate thief and a wrongdoer who voluntarily confessed evidently accounts for the difference between the penalty stated at Exodus 22:7 and that of Leviticus 6:1-7.

    This explains why Paul would say in Hebrew 8:13 the law is obsolete.

    Now let's see if Christians were bound by 'rules' since the law is obsolete.

    “Law of the Christ.” Paul wrote: “Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.” (Ga 6:2) While the Law covenant was terminated at Pentecost, 33 C.E. (“since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law”; Heb 7:12), Christians come “under law toward Christ.” (1Co 9:21) This law is called “the perfect law that belongs to freedom,” “the law of a free people,” “the law of faith.” (Jas 1:25; 2:12; Ro 3:27) Such a new law had been foretold by God through the prophet Jeremiah when he spoke of a new covenant and the writing of his law on the hearts of his people.—Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:6-13.

    Like Moses, the mediator of the Law covenant, Jesus Christ is Mediator of the new covenant. Moses wrote the Law in code form, but Jesus did not personally put a law down in writing. He talked and put his law into the minds and hearts of his disciples. Neither did his disciples set down laws in the form of a code for Christians, classifying the laws into categories and subheadings. Nonetheless, the Christian Greek Scriptures are full of laws, commands, and decrees that the Christian is bound to observe.—Re 14:12; 1Jo 5:2, 3; 4:21; 3:22-24; 2Jo 4-6; Joh 13:34, 35; 14:15; 15:14.


    Jesus gave instruction to his disciples to preach the ‘good news of the kingdom.’ His command is found at Matthew 10:1-42; Luke 9:1-6; 10:1-12. At Matthew 28:18-20 a new command was given to Jesus’ disciples to go, not to the Jews only, but to all nations, to make disciples and baptize them with a new baptism, “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” Thus, with divine authorization Jesus taught and issued commands while on earth (Ac 1:1, 2) as well as after his ascension. (Ac 9:5, 6; Re 1:1-3) The entire book of Revelation consists of prophecies, commands, admonition, and instruction to the Christian congregation.

    The “law of the Christ” covers the whole course and scope of the Christian’s life and work. By the help of God’s spirit the Christian can follow the commands in order to be judged favorably by that law, for it is “the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus.”—Ro 8:2, 4.

    So you are wrong. Christians do have rules according to the bible. There will always be guidelines as to how Jehovah chosses to be worshipped. Stepping outside of that boundary is breaking the rules of true worship. There is no way around it, God has rules we must follow to be considered righteous. Period. End of discussion.

    Why do you use watchtower publications that were written were way before my question was posted to answer my question?

    Why don't you simply answer the question, scripture-by-scripture, applying your bible knowledge, as gained from the Jehovah's Witnesses?

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Animal Life: Lev. 11:6: “The hare . . . is a chewer of the cud.” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp. 159-163.



    Chewing of cud refers to the rumination process. Rabbits are not ruminants, they do not chew their cud. This is false. The bible is false.

    Some hares will quickly eat their droppings to assist in digestion. This is not chewing cud. Pigs do this as well. Yet the bible says:

    Lv:11:7: And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

    So obviously the bible is not referring to this. Nope. The bible is still scientifically inaccurate. Sorry.

    You really need to begin researching facts on your own. Copying from JW literature and creationist "science" literature, like those from Michael Behe, are inaccurate, sloppy science at best, and sometimes just bald faced lies. Doesn't it bother you or make you question your position when it must be supported by lies or purposeful misrepresentations of the truth?
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Feb 14, 2011 at 22:19.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    "He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’
    Do NOT GO After Them."
    Luke 21:8 (New World Translation)

    Watchtower Society and Charles Taze Russell's Predictions:
    1874, 1878, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1941, 1975, 1994
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Originally Posted by abcd
    Millerite Movement
    Q: What is the Millerite Movement?
    A: The Millerite Movement was a group of people who under William Miller's guidance believed Armageddon would come in 1844.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    When the end did not come, William Miller admitted he was wrong and went about his way.

    But would this be the end of false prediction? No.

    Q: What Christian denominations came from the Millerite Movement?
    A: Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Church of God(Seventh Day). Several other small denominations came out of the Millerite Movement, too.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Q: When were these denominations formed?
    A: Seventh-Day Adventists(1844), Church of God: Seventh Day(1858), Jehovah's Witnesses(1881)

    In 1844 William Miller stepped down from making predictions, but Ellen G. White did not want to end all hope.

    So she recruited thousands of members and created a “Shut Door Policy.”

    The Shut Door Policy is identical to the Jehovah's Witnesses belief that at Armageddon only the Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved.

    In Ellen G. White's policy, she stated that only Adventists would be saved and that anyone who did not join would perish forever.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    White predicted Jesus would “visibly” return in 1844, just like Charles Taze Russell(founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) predicted Jesus would visibly return in 1874.

    But when her prediction did not come true, she changed her prediction and stated that Jesus had started his “investigative judgement” “invisibly” in 1844, which is very similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses prediction that Jesus “invisibly” took his throne in 1914 AFTER Russell was wrong about Jesus “visibly” returning in 1874. It is also identical to the "investigative judgement" that Jehovah's Witnesses claim occured from 1914-1919.

    "Anointed Christians who survived the testing period of 1914-19 were freed from the dominating influence of the world and from many Babylonish religious practices. The remnant went forward as a cleansed and refined people, willingly offering sacrifices of praise to God and having the assurance that they as a people were acceptable to him." ”Watchtower 1998 May 15 p.17

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Ellen G. White created a large amount of beliefs, and Charles Taze Russell would “borrow” heavily from her teachings.

    1. Ellen G. White believed the other non-adventist churches were under the power of Satan. To this day Adventists secretly believe the Catholic church is “the whore of Babylon.”
    "Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible."-Ellen G. White
    This is identical the the Watchtower's teachings that the non-Witness churches are under the power of Satan.

    "Is it presumptuous of Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that they alone have God's backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God's backing in spite of the Egyptians' belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God's backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists." Watchtower 2001 June 1 p.16

    Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19


    But wait, Ellen G. White began the Adventist movement in 1844, and Charles Taze Russell didn't start the Zion's Watchtower until 1881. Something is fishy here.

    Let's do a comparison of the Seventh-Day Adventist(EST 1844) original beliefs and the Jehovah's Witnesses(EST 1881) original beliefs:

    Did the original SDA(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) accept and donate blood?
    Yes(the JW would go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth with their blood policy, but they currently do not allow blood transfusions).
    Watchtower quotes

    Did the original SDA(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) believe in the Trinity?
    No. (in 1980 , the SDA church officially accepted the trinity, although they still believe Jesus is the archangel Michael, just like the JW religion).

    Did the original SDA(Est. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) believe that Jesus was the archangel Michael?
    Yes(both still believe this to be true).

    Did the original SDA(Est. 1844) and JW(Est. 1881) believe that salvation comes from works and faith, with works being a major requirement?
    Yes, both still hold this belief.

    Did the original SDA(Est. 1844) and JW(Est. 1881) disfellowship and shun family members and friends for questioning one or more of their beliefs or not attending meetings regularly?
    Yes(The Seventh-Day Adventists are no longer told to shun family members, but they still practice disfellowshipping. The Jehovah's Witnesses still practice both).

    'You have seen the benefit of godly love, but do you know how to hate? These very strong words are an expression of godly hate, and you too must have this quality to be pleasing to God. Hate causes a feeling of disgust to well up inside you. You loathe, abhor, despise the object of your hatred Godly hatred never has as its object our Christian brothers, no matter how imperfect.' The Watchtower, July 15, 1974, page 442

    "Love your enemies. ... Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned."
    Luke 6: 26 - 37

    Did the original SDA(EST 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) believe that the members of their religion's bodies are asleep until Armageddon?
    Yes, both still hold this belief.

    Did the original SDA(EST. 1844) and JW(Est. 1881) preach door to door?
    Yes, both groups still preach door to door. SDA's and JW's preach on Saturday morning.
    They both will have magazines and Bibles, when they go to your door, although Jehovah's Witnesses are more prone to using Theocratic Warfare since it's included in their doctrine.

    Did the original SDA(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) believe in eternal hell?
    No. (SDAs and Jws believe non-members are put to death by God at Armageddon).

    Did the original SDA(EST. 1844) and JW (EST. 1881) believe in celebrating holidays?
    Yes.

    Contrary to popular beliefs, Jehovah's Witnesses frequently celebrated holidays that they refer to today as pagan. While SDAs still consider holidays pagan, they usually have celebrations during some holidays without acknowledging any significance for the day.

    "What caused the Bible Students to stop celebrating Christmas? Richard H. Barber gave this answer: "I was asked to give an hour talk over a [radio] hookup on the subject of Christmas. It was given December 12, 1928, and published in The Golden Age #241 and again a year later in #268. That talk pointed out the pagan origin of Christmas. After that, the brothers at Bethel never celebrated Christmas again."
    Yearbook 1975 p.147

    In fact, Charles Taze Russell has a pagan symbol AND A CHRISTMAS WREATH on his grave site.




    Did the original SDA(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) badmouth Catholics and other denominations?
    Yes. Both the SDA books and JW Watchtower Magazines frequently talk negatively of other denominations to this day, especially the Catholic Church.
    "Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19

    Did the original SDA(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) believe Christ would visibly return?
    Yes. Ellen G. White predicted it would happen in 1844 and then backpedaled and claimed it was the start of Jesus' invisible investigative judgment. Charles Taze Russell changed his 1874 visible return of Christ into Jesus' invisible return of Christ in 1874 and then when his Armageddon prediction was wrong in 1914 changed his prediction to Jesus' invisible rule over the heavens.

    Do the SDA(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) refer to themselves as being “remnant?”
    Yes. Both groups claim to be the “chosen ones.
    "Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ])

    Do SDAs(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) promote healthy eating and instruct their members on how to dress and groom themselves?
    Yes. SDAs created many vegetarian cereals and canned products from Kellogs and Loma Linda, and many of their members exclude some or all meat and seafood from their diets. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that in paradise, the animals and humans will live in peace and will therefore be vegetarian.
    SDAs and JW both have dress codes and encourage the members to shave.

    Do SDAs(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) have magazines and other types of literature that they use along with the bible?
    Yes, although SDAs use the King James Bible and do not believe their magazines have exclusive truth. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Watchtower & Awake magazines are a prerequisite to salvation and using the New World Translation alone is a sin.

    "From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. ...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home." --The Watchtower, August 15, 1981, page 28-29



    Do SDAs(EST. 1844) and JW(EST. 1881) have baptism through full immersion?
    Yes.

    It's almost like Charles Taze Russell copied the vast majority of his beliefs from Ellen G. White.

    Watchtower Society claims everyone except them will die in 1975. We are now in the year 2011.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    The Link between the Millerite Movement and the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society:
    William Miller used arithmetic to come up with his 1843 and 1844 end of the world prediction.
    What did the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society use? Arithmetic.

    "But it requires 457 full years before Christ, and 1843 full years after Christ [457+ 1843]
    to make the 2300. Now the decree of Artaxerxes did not go into effect at the beginning of the year 457 B.C., but in the autumn of that year[+ 9 months]; it follows that the 2300 days would not terminate in 1843, but would extend to the autumn of 1844."
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    New World Translation Bible:
    "Chronology: A. 1914(CE) ends Gentile Times: 1. Line of Kingdom rulers interrupted in 607 B.C.E.
    "Seven Times" to pass until rule restored. Seven=2 X 3 1/2, or 2 X 1,260 days. A day for a year[makes 2,520 years] to run until kingdom's establishment."

    These are the Bible quotes the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society uses to manipulate the truth and pretend their arithmetic has anything to do with the Bible.

    But notice how none of the Bible quotes say 1874, 1878, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1941, 1975, or 1994.

    But Luke 21:8 of the New World Translation does say this, "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name saying, "I am he" and, "The due time has approached." DO NOT GO AFTER THEM."
    Originally Posted by abcd
    Consolation 12/25/1940, page 19: Blood transfusions spoken of as favorable.

    Watchtower 7/1/1945, page 201: Blood officially banned in 1945.

    Awake! 01/08/1954, page 24 : Disallowed the use of blood fractions.

    Watchtower 9/15/1958, page 575: Changed policy allows use of blood fractions.

    Watchtower 10/15/1959, page 640: No storage of blood before an operation.

    Watchtower 9/15/1961, pages 558-599: Disallowed blood fractions.

    Watchtower 11/15/1964, pages 680-683: Now allows blood fractions.

    Watchtower 1967 No longer Permits Organ Transplants.


    Awake 2/22/1975, page 30: Hemophilia treatment condemned

    Watchtower 06/15/1978, pages 29-31: Hemophilia treatments allowed now.

    Watchtower 6/15/1985, page 30: Factor VIII not allowed (from plasma pooled from as many as 2 500 blood donors)


    Watchtower 3/1/1989, pages 30 & 31: Blood outside body permitted using dialysis.

    Watchtower 6/15/2000, pages 29-31: Blood fractions from blood components allowed

    The Governing body continues to flip flop, yet they claim to be
    "God's appointed channel."

    Our Kingdom Ministry September 2002 (For Britain) p. 8
    5 God's Appointed Channel:Bear in mind that our heavenly Father has an appointed channel of communication, "the faithful and discreet slave." That "slave" has the responsibility to determine what information is made available to the household of faith, as well as "the proper time" for it to be dispensed. This spiritual food is available only through the theocratic organization. We should always look to God's appointed channel for reliable information, not to a network of Internet users.








    P.S.-The Watchtower Society claimed the United Nations was "the wild beast," but they joined the United Nations in 1992. Hypocrisy exposed.
    The wild beast represents the United Nations organization... Thus the modern-day Assyrian (nations associated with the UN) will deal Christendom a mighty blow and will crush her out of her existence.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    "Recently the NGO Section has been receiving numerous inquires regarding the association of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York with the Department of Public Information (DPI). This organization applied for association with DPI in 1991 and was granted association in 1992.
    This news was shocking to individual Jehovah’s Witnesses who discovered the Society’s involvement with what they viewed as the “image of the wild beast.” They immediately began to question the Watchtower Society’s intentions concerning the United Nations. In response, the Watchtower Society quickly disassociated itself from the UN in October of 2001."
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society(Est 1881) got its beliefs and methods for making predictions from the Seventh-Day Adventists(EST 1844) and the Millerites(EST 1835) respectively.

    The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society joined the United Nations in 1992, despite calling the United Nations "the wild beast." When Jehovah's Witnesses confronted the Watchtower Society about this, the leaders were afraid of losing members, so they applied to be removed from the United Nations in 2001.

    The Watchtower Society falsely predicted the end of the world 10 times, and Luke 21:8 warns people about false prediction.

    The Watchtower Society altered its blood policy/organ transplant policy/small pox vaccine policy on dozens of occasions.

    The above quotes are irrefutable proof.
    Last edited by abcd; Feb 14, 2011 at 23:03.

  9. #189
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    Default Is the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society a cult?

    The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society defined the word "cult" for all
    Jehovah's Witnesses and non-Witnesses to see in their February 15, 1994 edition of the Watchtower Magazine.



    Let's see if the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society fits its definition of a cult.

    "Cult members often isolate themselves from family, friends, and even society in general."
    (The Watchtower, February 15, 1994, pp. 6-7)

    The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society practices shunning(ex-communication of family, friends, and former witnesses), disfellowshipping(removal of the Congregation), and the Jehovah's Witness children are discouraged from engaging in afterschool activities with "worldly" non-Witness children.

    Irrefutable Evidence:

    "Listen! "it is expected" that you will have no
    extra-curricular activities outside of the Watchtower. Such activity is a "danger" and "worldly". Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry 1983, p. 133.

    "Children should get away from disfellowshipped parents as soon as they are old enough to leave." (Watchtower, 11/15/52, p. 703. )

    "If a child of someone is disfellowshipped from the Kingdom Hall, the parent is to refuse to listen to the child's reason."( Organization for Kingdom-Preaching and Disciple-Making1972, p. 173.)

    "Disfellowshipped children, legally of age will be kicked out of the home." (Watchtower, 11/15/52, p. 703. )

    You are reminded that involvement in after-school sports tie you down, requiring you to spend evenings and weekends playing on a school team. You are expected to be at the lectures at the Kingdom Hall. "Any recreation you take outside of school should not be with worldly youths." Watchtower, 9/1/64, p.535.

    "Cheerleaders lead people into "frenzied cheering ... hero worship ... glorifying humans." School and Jehovah's Witnesses, 1983, pp.23-24. Never become a homecoming queen! This would 'set up womanhood upon a pedestal." Watchtower, 6/15/64, p.381.

    "In fact, the month Of May of Mother's Day is understood to be named after Maia, a demon worshiped by the pagans. . . . "' (Awake 5/8/1956, p. 25)

    "We all need to face up to the fact that Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah, the God of truth. Then what is their source? ... Satan the Devil."(WT 12/15/1983, p. 7)

    "No Jehovah's Witness should want to go to college." Watchtower,9/1/75, p.543; Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock, 1977, p. 105..

    "Do not pursue higher education." Watchtower 3/15/1969, p. 171

    "If a JW joins another religion, an announcement is made to the congregation to stop associating with him." (WT 10/15/1986 p.31)

    "If someone used to be a Jehovah's Witness, "We must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme ~ active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest." Watchtower, 10/1/52, p.599.


    "The real danger of playing chess is it's military nature, the equivalent of the maneuvers enacted by little boys with toy soldiers." Awake !, 3/22/73, pp.12-14.

    Luke 21: 8
    "He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them."

    Mark 13:32
    Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."

    Watchtower Bible & Tract Society's failed predictions: 1874, 1878, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1941, 1975, 1994, 1995-present(the end is "imminent," or near).
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    " the generation of 1914 -- the generation that will not pass away." -- The Watchtower May 15, 1984, pages 6-7

    Watchtower Society backpedals:

    "Wt, 11/1/1995, pg 19, Therefore, in the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, “this generation” apparently refers to the peoples of the earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways."

    What does Charles Taze Russell say?
    "New light never contradicts old light." Zion's Watchtower 1881

    If that's the case, then nothing should have contradicted the generation of 1914 "that will not pass" prediction.

    "gathering time beginning October 1874; the organization of the Kingdom and the taking by our Lord of his great power as the King in April 1878, and the time of trouble or "day of wrath" which began October 1874 and will end October 1914 -- Watchtower 1908, page 604

    Zion’s Watchtower, 7/15/1906, pg 3821, reprint
    "the truths I present[Charles Taze Russell], as God’s mouthpiece"

    Watchtower, 1/15/1959, pg 40, 41..."Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their[governing body] lips and put his word in their mouths."

    Wt, 10/15/1980, pg 17"God gives his humble servants[governing body] special knowledge that others do not have... having advance knowledge from Jehovah, his servants are equipped"

    Aw, 5/22/1969, pg 15"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. .....all evidence indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. ....as a young person you will never fulfill any career that this system offers."
    Last edited by abcd; Feb 15, 2011 at 01:01.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Why do you use watchtower publications that were written were way before my question was posted to answer my question?

    Why don't you simply answer the question, scripture-by-scripture, applying your bible knowledge, as gained from the Jehovah's Witnesses?
    I liked what is posted better than I can word it. And since it is part of my faith, I think it's irrelevant whether I used it, or my own words, since it is simply to answer your question, which was answered.

    God has rules.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Chewing of cud refers to the rumination process. Rabbits are not ruminants, they do not chew their cud. This is false. The bible is false.

    Some hares will quickly eat their droppings to assist in digestion. This is not chewing cud. Pigs do this as well. Yet the bible says:

    Lv:11:7: And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

    So obviously the bible is not referring to this. Nope. The bible is still scientifically inaccurate. Sorry.

    You really need to begin researching facts on your own. Copying from JW literature and creationist "science" literature, like those from Michael Behe, are inaccurate, sloppy science at best, and sometimes just bald faced lies. Doesn't it bother you or make you question your position when it must be supported by lies or purposeful misrepresentations of the truth?
    Why every time some scientist agrees with a biblical viewpoint is it sloppy science to you? Is that not a tad biased? Either way, it is what it is. Just saw this, and remembered I had read this somewhere. Good day.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    You failed to answer his post, in which Jesus predicts people will come, falsely claiming special status and that the time has come. It is a general description that could fit anyone, but JW's do have a history of failed predictions of the "spoken-of" time.

    False
    Prophets

    Definition:
    Individuals and organizations proclaiming messages that they attribute to a superhuman source but that do not originate with the true God and are not in harmony with his revealed will.
    How
    can true prophets and false ones be identified?

    True
    prophets make known their faith in Jesus, but more is required than claiming to preach in his name

    1 John 4:1-3: “Test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. You gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God.”
    Matt. 7:21-23: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name . . . ?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”

    True
    prophets speak in the name of God, but merely claiming to represent him is not enough

    Deut. 18:18-20: “A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.” (Compare Jeremiah 14:14; 28:11, 15.)

    Jesus said: “I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things.” (John 8:28) He said: “I have come in the name of my Father.” (John 5:43) Jesus also said: “He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory.”—John 7:18.
    If any individuals or organizations claim to represent God but decline to use God’s personal name, and make it a practice to express their own opinions on matters, are they measuring up to this important qualification of a true prophet?

    Ability
    to perform “great signs,” or “miracles,” is not necessarily proof of a true prophet

    Matt. 24:24: “False Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs [“miracles,” TEV] and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.”
    2 Thess. 2:9, 10: “The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.”
    On the other hand, Moses performed miracles at Jehovah’s direction. (Ex. 4:1-9) Jehovah also empowered Jesus to perform miracles. (Acts 2:22) But more than the miracles gave evidence that God had truly sent them.

    What
    true prophets foretell comes to pass, but they may not understand just when or how it will be

    Dan. 12:9: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end.”
    1 Pet. 1:10, 11: “The prophets . . . kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of season the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these.”
    1 Cor. 13:9, 10: “We have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.”
    Prov. 4:18: “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”

    The apostles and other early Christian disciples had certain wrong expectations, but the Bible does not classify them with the “false prophets.”—See Luke 19:11; John 21:22, 23; Acts 1:6, 7.
    Nathan the prophet encouraged King David to go ahead with what was in his heart regarding the building of a house for Jehovah’s worship. But later Jehovah told Nathan to inform David that he was not the one who would build it. Jehovah did not reject Nathan for what he had said earlier but continued to use him because he humbly corrected the matter when Jehovah made it plain to him.—1 Chron. 17:1-4, 15.

    The
    pronouncements of a true prophet promote true worship and are in harmony with God’s revealed will

    Deut. 13:1-4: “In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul. After Jehovah your God you should walk, and him you should fear, and his commandments you should keep, and to his voice you should listen, and him you should serve, and to him you should cling.”

    Since the Bible says that “a friend of the world” is an enemy of God, are clergymen who urge their parishioners to get involved in the affairs of the world promoting true worship? (Jas. 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17) The true God said that the nations “will have to know that I am Jehovah,” and the Bible states that God would take out of the nations “a people for his name,” but are religious organizations that minimize the importance of using God’s personal name acting in harmony with this revealed will of God? (Ezek. 38:23; Acts 15:14) Jesus taught his followers to pray for God’s Kingdom, and the Bible cautions against putting one’s trust in earthling men, so are clergymen or political organizations that urge people to place their confidence in human rulership true prophets?—Matt. 6:9, 10; Ps. 146:3-6; compare Revelation 16:13, 14.

    True
    prophets and the false can be recognized by the fruitage manifest in their lives and the lives of those who follow them

    Matt. 7:15-20: “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. . . . Every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit . . . Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.”
    What characterizes their way of life? “The works of the flesh are . . . fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. . . . Those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. On the other hand, the fruitage of [God’s] spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:19-23; see also 2 Peter 2:1-3.
    Have not Jehovah’s Witnesses made errors in their teachings?

    Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.

    The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ’s presence, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan’s wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36) Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah’s purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42.

    Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God’s permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty. God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth.

    Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovah’s Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves.

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    As to your other point (on being the only ones to follow Jehovah, which I guess is something you claim you do alone because of your sect's heavy use of the name): in John 14: 6 Jesus answered [Thomas], “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

    Here, Jesus clearly says that you must go through him to get to Jehovah. It also says that to know Jesus is to know Jehovah. So, technically, other Christians who acknowledge Jesus are also acknowledging the father. These verses even go as far as saying that, by Thomas knowing Jesus, he has already known Jehovah.

    So... this makes the view of Jesus' deity, or lack thereof, of great importance. If Jesus is not an angel or archangel (see Hebrews 1:5-9), as JW's claim, their view may keep Witnesses from the way (as described by Jesus) to Jehovah. I can't say for sure. Just some food for thought.
    A witness of Jehovah is someone who worships him alone as the only true God. That means willingly accepting his terms of worship and living by them. Only Jehovah's witness choose to do this. Period.

    And yes, Jesus is the way to God, because as 1tim 2:5 says : For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus

    If there is God, and there is man, and Jesus as the mediator in the middle of the two parties, would Jesus being God, in the trinity setting, effectively offset his part as the mediator, or seperate party? Of course it would. This alone should tell people he cannot be God. But alas, not everyone chooses to use common logic when it comes to the bible.

    How about Colossians 1:15? (Jesus)[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] If Jesus is a creature, who then Created him? Bible says God has always been, no creator involved. Both of these scriptures give strong evidence to Jesus not being the Ultimate God. Along with many, many others.

    Try this one on for size Mat 28:18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth

    Excuse me? Almighty God needs to have authority 'given' to him? Since when does need anything? Why would Jesus, who is God to 95% of the Christian Faiths worldwide, need someone else to bestow authority upon him? That makes sense? Again, all three of these verses give strong evidence to the contrary. Along with your verses in Hebrews as well. So the theme of the bible seems to be telling us that Jehovah is God, Jesus is his son, and while being called a Mighty god, he is never refered to as Almighty God. That reservation is held for Jehovah alone. And they are two very distinctly different individuals.

    Therefore, if one claims to know Jesus, but believes him to be God, is their claim biblically validated? Not according to the theme of the bible.



    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    And again, do you have any retorts of my posts on oft-witnessed Jehovah Witness pride, regarding their alleged following of "the whole bible," when the holy spirit, through the apostles, stated that the old covenant, i.e., the old testament, was wrong? What about the mystical scriptures I posted, along with a definition of mysticism, is it not valid? And your organization's focus on "the letter," which kills, rather than "the spirit," which gives life, according to Paul, is that biblical?

    Let me know, by going through each scripture I have posted and showing, with the bible, how you or your organization interprets these.

    PEACE
    That has nothing to do with Pride. It has everything to do with true service to Jehovah. It is a disservice to God to ignore half of his book. Jehovah does not waste his ability. He only uses the proper amount. Therefore, if the old testament is part of his book, it is relevant. And the previous post answered those other questions.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Why every time some scientist agrees with a biblical viewpoint is it sloppy science to you? Is that not a tad biased? Either way, it is what it is. Just saw this, and remembered I had read this somewhere. Good day.
    Because when making claims without backing it up with testing, research and data, and not bothering to verify if said claims have already been proven/disproven by previous or on-going research, is considered sloppy science. Kind of like what you do, not bothering to research claims, just state them without verification. Michael Behe's, and other Discovery Institute creation "scientists'", claims have all been refuted and proved false and have been exposed for their lack of rigorous testing required in science, yet they continue to spew their lies because they have nothing left. Behe has been publically disowned by Leheigh University. Not because of bias, but because of sloppy science.

    And again, rabbits are not ruminants. They do not chew their cud. Bible is false. Sorry.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    I think the difference between us is that I am more interested in the mystical aspects of the bible: the teachings on being brought to life (spiritually), the inner death of we who live in transgressions, divine grace, bearing the cross daily (i.e., suffering willingly), unconditional love, etc. If I'm not mistaken, you're more interested in the end of the world and doing what you feel you must to be saved [at that time], which was Russell's focus.

    I am not with the JWs, but I became attracted to this forum through Google by the many false statements being made about Charles Taze Russell. Russel was never associated with the JW organization. Nevertheless, Russell did not believe in, and actually preached against the kind of organization that Rutherford created after Russell died.

    Russell did not believe in the kind of alleged "good news" (gospel) that the JWs preach. He also preached against similar kinds of alleged gospels that were being preached in his day.

    There are tens of thousands of pages that are available that have been produced from Russell's works. I have been studying his works (as well as the works of many others) for about 50 years now, and am quite familiar to most of what Russell taught, and when. Often many things that the JWs preach are retroactively attributed to Russell, when in actuality Russell may have taught the opposite, or nearly the opposite, of what the JWs teach.

    The main focus of Russell's ministry was the defense of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and helping others to christ-likeness. Russell did not believe in the "end of the world" as the JWs preach nor in the JW-type of Armageddon. He was not trying to save as many as possible for any alleged eternal destruction in Armageddon. He viewed Armageddon as period of time -- the time of trouble -- in which the peoples of the nations were to disciplined in preparation for the blessings of the kingdom that was to follow. Russell was not expecting an Armageddon like the JWs preach; he was not expecting an Armageddon that would eternally destroy millions of unbelievers.

    Russell was a non-sectarian, who did not believe in sects or denominations such as the Jehovah's Witnesses. Russell was associated with the Bible Students movement, but he at least endeavored to keep the Bible Students from becoming sectarian, although he seemed to have failed to realized that the movement was becoming sectarian.

    Although he did not condone sects and denominations, he recognized that Christians were to be found amongst all the various denominations that claim to be Christian. He believed, however, that Christians should be free from all sects in order to serve Christ only. He refused to recognize any central authority in the church except Jesus and the apostles through the Bible.

    God willing, I will be posting more in order to address some of things that are being said about Russell.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Because when making claims without backing it up with testing, research and data, and not bothering to verify if said claims have already been proven/disproven by previous or on-going research, is considered sloppy science. Kind of like what you do, not bothering to research claims, just state them without verification. Michael Behe's, and other Discovery Institute creation "scientists'", claims have all been refuted and proved false and have been exposed for their lack of rigorous testing required in science, yet they continue to spew their lies because they have nothing left. Behe has been publically disowned by Leheigh University. Not because of bias, but because of sloppy science.

    And again, rabbits are not ruminants. They do not chew their cud. Bible is false. Sorry.
    Well I don't know why this person was refuted, but I do know that whenever a scientist agrees with creationism, this person is often called stupid. I don't think that's fair. But I don't care enough either way.

    All I know is there is nothing you or anyone could say about bible prophecies happening in our day! Other than close your eys and stomp your feet and say it ain't happening.

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