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Thread: what does the bible really teach?

  1. #241
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    Default Russell and the 7th Day Adventists

    Originally Posted by abcd
    Study your religion's history, and you will see that Charles Taze Russell modeled all of his beliefs after the Seventh-Day Adventists.
    As I pointed out before, Charles Taze Russell did not believe in a religion such as the "Jehovah's Witnesses". The JWs retroactively assume and presume upon Russell that he was one of the "Jehovah's Witnesses". I am sure that Russell would not have anything to do with such an authoritarian and dictatorial organization as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Charles Taze Russell, however, most definitely did NOT model all of his beliefs after the Seventh-Day Adventists. Although the SDA may have some similar teachings, Russell's teachings were extremely different from that of the SDA.

    Perhaps the author has confused the Seventh-Day Adventists with the Second Adventists. Russell did receive a lot of truth from certain individuals who had been associated with the Second Adventists movement (not to be confused with the Seventh-Day Adventists), but he rejected a lot of the more popular beliefs held by Second Adventists, and he explained why.

    There is no evidence that Russell ever had any association at all with the Seventh-Day Adventists. Russell printed several articles showing why he believed the Seventh-Day Adventist doctrine to be wrong.

    The Seventh-Day Adventists have never believed in the ransom for all, the doctrine that Russell held central in his ministry. Indeed, the very reason that Russell began printing the Watch Tower in 1879 was defend that doctrine (which doctrine the JWs have rejected). Russell certainly did not get that main doctrine from the SDA.

    Some of the Second Adventists had believed in the ransom for all, but the majority in that movement did not.

    See searches of Russell's works for "Seventh-Day Adventists"
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    Default Luke 21:8 and Study of Time Prophecy

    Originally Posted by abcd
    "He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’
    Do NOT GO After Them."
    Luke 21:8 (New World Translation)
    Jesus' words in Luke 21:8 have nothing at all to do with study of Biblical time prophecies, nor of studying God's Word as related to times and the seasons.

    Many, however, have claimed special authority along this line, and this is what Jesus was warning against. Indeed, many have and do claim to be Jesus himself; I have received communications from some who claim that they are God Almighty in the flesh. The Watchtower Society of today (as well as many other religious leaders) claims special authority. Regarding these, Jesus tells us not to follow after. Russell, himself, however, never set himself as such authority.

    Jesus is the only "prophet" given to church (Matthew 13:57; Luke 13:33; 16:16; Acts 3:22,26; Hebrew 1:1,2 - the prophets of 1 Corinthians 12:28,29 are not "prophets" in the same sense as the Old Testament prophets, and certainly not in the sense that Jesus is "the prophet" that Israel was expecting, the prophet like Moses. -- Mark 6:15; John 1:21,25; 7:40; Acts 3:22,26).

    There is nothing in Luke 21:8, or anywhere else in the Bible, that forbids study of Biblical time prophecies related to Christ's return.

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    Originally Posted by ResLight
    As I pointed out before, Charles Taze Russell did not believe in a religion such as the "Jehovah's Witnesses". The JWs retroactively assume and presume upon Russell that he was one of the "Jehovah's Witnesses". I am sure that Russell would not have anything to do with such an authoritarian and dictatorial organization as the Jehovah's Witnesses.
    I assume you are an International Bible Student, since you are defending Charles Taze Russell.

    I am not in any religion, nor am I interested in joining any religion, but I respect your opinion.

    Good luck to you.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts concerning Armageddon.

    You will be very disappointed, just like the people who were disappointed in 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1941, 1975, and 1994.

    Luke 21:8 "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’
    Do not go after them."
    You're welcome.

    I won't be. We rely on the bible, and have learned from the past. We will not be disappointed.

    Good day.

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    Default Chp 9

    Are we living in the last days?

    What events in our time were foretold in the Bible?
    What does God’s Word say people would be like “in the last days”?
    Regarding “the last days,” what good things does the Bible foretell?


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] you watched the news on television and wondered, ‘What is this world coming to?’ Tragic things happen so suddenly and unexpectedly that no human can predict what tomorrow will bring. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) However, Jehovah knows what the future holds. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Long ago his Word, the Bible, foretold not only the bad things happening in our day but also the wonderful things that will occur in the near future.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Jesus Christ spoke about the Kingdom of God, which will bring an end to wickedness and make the earth a paradise. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) People wanted to know when the Kingdom would come. In fact, Jesus’ disciples asked him: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) In reply Jesus told them that only Jehovah God knew exactly when the end of this system of things would come. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) But Jesus did foretell things that would take place on earth just before the Kingdom would bring true peace and security to mankind. What he foretold is now taking place!

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Before we examine the evidence that we are living in “the conclusion of the system of things,” let us briefly consider a war that no human could possibly have observed. It took place in the invisible spirit realm, and its outcome affects us.
    A WAR IN HEAVEN

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] in this book explained that Jesus Christ became King in heaven in the year 1914. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Soon after he received Kingdom power, Jesus took action. “War broke out in heaven,” says the Bible. “Michael [another name for Jesus] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan the Devil], and the dragon and its angels battled.”[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Satan and his wicked angels, the demons, lost that war and were cast out of heaven to the earth. God’s faithful spirit sons rejoiced that Satan and his demons were gone. Humans, however, would experience no such joy. Instead, the Bible foretold: “Woe for the earth . . . because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ], [Only registered and activated users can see links. ],[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Please notice what would result from the war in heaven. In his fury, Satan would bring woe, or trouble, upon those on earth. As you will see, we are now living in that time of woe. But it will be relatively brief—only “a short period of time.” Even Satan realizes that. The Bible refers to this period as “the last days.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) How glad we can be that God will soon do away with the Devil’s influence over the earth! Let us consider some of the things foretold in the Bible that are happening right now. These prove that we are living in the last days and that God’s Kingdom will soon bring everlasting blessings to those who love Jehovah. First, let us examine four features of the sign that Jesus said would mark the time in which we live.
    MAJOR DEVELOPMENTS OF THE LAST DAYS


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] “Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Millions of people have been killed in wars during the past century. One British historian wrote: “The 20th century was the most murderous in recorded history. . . . It was a century of almost unbroken war, with few and brief periods without organised armed conflict somewhere.” A report from the Worldwatch Institute states: “Three times as many people fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century AD to 1899.” More than 100 million people have died as a result of wars since 1914. Even if we know the sorrow of losing one loved one in warfare, we can only imagine such misery and pain multiplied millions of times over.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] “There will be food shortages.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Researchers say that food production has increased greatly during the past 30 years. Nevertheless, food shortages continue because many people do not have enough money to buy food or land on which to raise crops. In developing countries, well over a billion people have to live on an income of a dollar or less a day. The majority of these suffer from chronic hunger. The World Health Organization estimates that malnutrition plays a major role in the deaths of more than five million children each year.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] “There will be great earthquakes.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) According to the U.S. Geological Survey, since 1990 alone an average of 17 earthquakes per year have been powerful enough to damage buildings and crack the ground. And on an average, earthquakes strong enough to cause total destruction of buildings have occurred yearly. Another source states: “Earthquakes have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the last 100 years and improvements in technology have only slightly reduced the death toll.”

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] “There will be . . . pestilences.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Despite medical advances, old and new diseases plague mankind. One report says that 20 well-known diseases—including tuberculosis, malaria, and cholera—have become more common in recent decades, and some types of disease are increasingly difficult to cure by means of drugs. In fact, at least 30 new diseases have appeared. Some of them have no known cure and are fatal.
    PEOPLE OF THE LAST DAYS


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Aside from identifying certain world developments, the Bible foretold that the last days would be marked by a change in human society. The apostle Paul described what people in general would be like. At [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], we read: “In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.” In part, Paul said that people would be
    • lovers of themselves
    • lovers of money
    • disobedient to parents
    • disloyal
    • having no natural affection
    • without self-control
    • fierce
    • lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God
    • having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Have people become like that in your community? No doubt they have. There are people everywhere who have bad traits. This shows that God will soon act, for the Bible says: “When the wicked ones sprout as the vegetation and all the practicers of what is hurtful blossom forth, it is that they may be annihilated forever.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    POSITIVE DEVELOPMENTS!

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] The last days are indeed filled with woe, just as the Bible foretold. In this troubled world, however, there are positive developments among the worshipers of Jehovah.
    “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] “The true knowledge will become abundant,” the Bible book of Daniel foretold. When would that happen? During “the time of the end.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Especially since 1914, Jehovah has helped those who truly desire to serve him to grow in understanding of the Bible. They have grown in appreciation of precious truths about God’s name and purpose, the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the condition of the dead, and the resurrection. Moreover, worshipers of Jehovah have learned how to live their lives in a way that benefits them and brings praise to God. They have also gained a clearer understanding of the role of God’s Kingdom and how it will set matters straight on the earth. What do they do with this knowledge? That question brings us to yet another prophecy that is being fulfilled in these last days.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth,” said Jesus Christ in his prophecy about “the conclusion of the system of things.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ], [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Throughout the earth, the good news of the Kingdom—what the Kingdom is, what it will do, and how we can receive its blessings—is being preached in over 230 lands and in more than 400 languages. Millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses zealously preach the Kingdom good news. They come from “all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) The Witnesses conduct free home Bible studies with millions of people who want to know what the Bible really teaches. What an impressive fulfillment of prophecy, especially since Jesus foretold that true Christians would be “objects of hatred by all people”!—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    WHAT WILL YOU DO?

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Since so many Bible prophecies are being fulfilled today, do you not agree that we are living in the last days? After the good news is preached to Jehovah’s satisfaction, “the end” is certain to come. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) “The end” means the time when God will get rid of wickedness on earth. To destroy all who willfully oppose Him, Jehovah will use Jesus and powerful angels. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Satan and his demons will no longer mislead the nations. After that, God’s Kingdom will shower blessings upon all who submit to its righteous rulership.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Since the end of Satan’s system is near, we need to ask ourselves, ‘What should I be doing?’ It is wise to continue to learn more about Jehovah and his requirements for us. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Be a serious student of the Bible. Make it your habit to associate regularly with others who seek to do Jehovah’s will. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Take in the abundant knowledge that Jehovah God has made available to people worldwide, and make necessary changes in your life so that you may enjoy God’s favor.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Jesus foretold that most people would ignore the evidence that we are living in the last days. The destruction of the wicked will come suddenly and unexpectedly. Like a thief in the night, it will catch most people by surprise. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) Jesus warned: “As the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Hence, Jesus told his listeners: “Pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing [with approval] before the Son of man.” ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) It is wise to take Jesus’ words to heart. Why? Because those having the approval of Jehovah God and “the Son of man,” Jesus Christ, have the prospect of surviving the end of Satan’s system of things and of living forever in the marvelous new world that is so close at hand!—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

    WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES

    • The last days are marked by wars, food shortages, earthquakes, and pestilences.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]; [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    • In the last days, many love themselves, money, and pleasures but do not love God.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    • During these last days, the good news of the Kingdom is being preached worldwide.—[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] For information showing that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, see the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
    Study Questions
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Where can we learn about the future?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] What question did the disciples ask Jesus, and how did he reply?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (a) What took place in heaven soon after Jesus was enthroned as King? (b) According to [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], what was to be the result of the war in heaven?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] How are Jesus’ words about wars and food shortages being fulfilled today?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] What shows that Jesus’ prophecies about earthquakes and pestilences have come true?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] What traits foretold at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] do you see in people today?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] How does [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] describe what will happen to the wicked ones?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] How has “true knowledge” become abundant in this “time of the end”?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] How widespread is the preaching of the Kingdom good news today, and who are preaching it?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (a) Do you believe that we are living in the last days, and why? (b) What will “the end” mean for those who oppose Jehovah and for those who submit to the rulership of God’s Kingdom?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] What would it be wise for you to do?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Why will the destruction of the wicked catch most people by surprise?
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] What warning by Jesus should we take to heart?

  6. #246
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    You're welcome.

    I won't be. We rely on the bible, and have learned from the past. We will not be disappointed.

    Good day.
    • John 14: 6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.'"
    In reply to my post of the above scripture, you stated that Jesus said that humans must go through him "to get to God," in essence changing the scripture for the sake of your support of Witness doctrine on Jesus' deity; but Jesus uses the term, "The Father," not God [in this quote].

    Is it only figure of speech, when it goes against your teachings and literal, when it suits you?

    If you want to use this quote to refute Jesus' insistance that you can only get to Jehovah through him, it is only fair you do so in context. You also ignored the portion of the scripture that says that if you have seen him you have seen the father.

    If Jesus is not part of the Christian trinity, please explain the following scripture, without citing other scripture to support your perspective. Additionally, how can you justify believing Jesus to be the archangel michael, based on this quote...
    • Hebrews 1: 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.” 8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;


    Why is Jesus, here, being referred to as "God" by Jehovah? And note that the people most likely to question Jesus' deity, because of their history of worshipping Jehovah, the Jews, are the ones receiving these instructions.

    Please answer yourself, without copying and pasting watchtower publications.

    God Bless
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Feb 16, 2011 at 21:01.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    • John 14: 6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.'"
    In reply to my post of the above scripture, you stated that Jesus said that humans must go through him "to get to God," in essence changing the scripture for the sake of your support of Witness doctrine on Jesus' deity; but Jesus uses the term, "The Father," not God [in this quote].

    Is it only figure of speech, when it goes against your teachings and literal, when it suits you?

    If you want to use this quote to refute Jesus' insistance that you can only get to Jehovah through him, it is only fair you do so in context. You also ignored the portion of the scripture that says that if you have seen him you have seen the father.

    If Jesus is not part of the Christian trinity, please explain the following scripture, without citing other scripture to support your perspective. Additionally, how can you justify believing Jesus to be the archangel michael, based on this quote...
    • Hebrews 1: 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.” 8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

    Why is Jesus, here, being referred to as "God" by Jehovah? And note that the people most likely to question Jesus' deity, because of their history of worshipping Jehovah, the Jews, are the ones receiving these instructions.

    Please answer yourself, without copying and pasting watchtower publications.

    God Bless
    If I am a Jehovah's witness, what is the big deal about using the publications I am associated with, so long as your question is answered?

    Hebrews
    1:8:

    RS
    reads: “Of the Son he says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.’” (KJ, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, NAB have similar renderings.) However, NW reads: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your throne forever and ever.’” (AT, Mo, TC, By convey the same idea.)

    Which rendering is harmonious with the context? The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God. Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God. Rather, Psalm 45:6, in RS, reads “Your divine throne.” (NE says, “Your throne is like God’s throne.” JP [verse 7]: “Thy throne given of God.”) Solomon, who was possibly the king originally addressed in Psalm 45, was said to sit “upon Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chron. 29:23, NW) In harmony with the fact that God is the “throne,” or Source and Upholder of Christ’s kingship, Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 1:32 show that God confers such authority on him.

    Hebrews 1:8, 9 quotes from Psalm 45:6, 7, concerning which the Bible scholar B. F. Westcott states: “The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·os′] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho the·os′ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·him′] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·os′] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’”—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26.

  8. #248
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    If I am a Jehovah's witness, what is the big deal about using the publications I am associated with, so long as your question is answered?


    Hebrews
    1:8:

    RS



    reads: “Of the Son he says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.’” (KJ, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, NAB have similar renderings.) However, NW reads: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your throne forever and ever.’” (AT, Mo, TC, By convey the same idea.)


    Which rendering is harmonious with the context? The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God. Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God. Rather, Psalm 45:6, in RS, reads “Your divine throne.” (NE says, “Your throne is like God’s throne.” JP [verse 7]: “Thy throne given of God.”) Solomon, who was possibly the king originally addressed in Psalm 45, was said to sit “upon Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chron. 29:23, NW) In harmony with the fact that God is the “throne,” or Source and Upholder of Christ’s kingship, Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 1:32 show that God confers such authority on him.



    Hebrews 1:8, 9 quotes from Psalm 45:6, 7, concerning which the Bible scholar B. F. Westcott states: “The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·os′] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho the·os′ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·him′] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·os′] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’”—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26.

    I just compared the NWT to three other bibles, and it really twisted the original bible in this case, as it has with other verses.

    No other bible text has this use of brackets and adding in indefinite articles, e.g., adding "a" to John 1:1, to make it read that the word was "a god," adding brackets to colossians 1:16 with the word other in it, in order to imply Jesus was created.

    And now I know the organization changes Hebrews to again deny Jesus' deity.

    About Jesus being Michael, how is that belief congruent with Hebrews?

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    I just compared the NWT to three other bibles, and it really twisted the original bible in this case, as it has with other verses.


    No other bible text has this use of brackets and adding in indefinite articles, e.g., adding "a" to John 1:1, to make it read that the word was "a god," adding brackets to colossians 1:16 with the word other in it, in order to imply Jesus was created.

    And now I know the organization changes Hebrews to again deny Jesus' deity.


    About Jesus being Michael, how is that belief congruent with Hebrews?
    I mean, no matter what bible you use, once you get to this part in Hebrew "God, thy God" Instantly it should tell a person that Jesus has a God. End of story.

    Hebrews 1:2 says Jesus has become Heir to all things. Heir is not equal, he is next in line. God created angels, not other Gods. But those angels follow him, making them God like.

    And then verse 9, the kicker : You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”

    If Jesus is God, this would effectively mean that the Father has boosted Jesus worth above his and the Holy spirit, since in the trinity setting all three are 3 diff persons, but equal in the Godhead. Essentially making Jesus Christ Almighty God.

    So the reasonable conclussion is that, no he is not God, he is being exulted to a higher authority, or thrown by God, because of his staunch righteousness.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    I mean, no matter what bible you use, once you get to this part in Hebrew "God, thy God" Instantly it should tell a person that Jesus has a God. End of story.

    Hebrews 1:2 says Jesus has become Heir to all things. Heir is not equal, he is next in line. God created angels, not other Gods. But those angels follow him, making them God like.

    And then verse 9, the kicker : You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”

    If Jesus is God, this would effectively mean that the Father has boosted Jesus worth above his and the Holy spirit, since in the trinity setting all three are 3 diff persons, but equal in the Godhead. Essentially making Jesus Christ Almighty God.

    So the reasonable conclussion is that, no he is not God, he is being exulted to a higher authority, or thrown by God, because of his staunch righteousness.

    Well, you have the only bible that changes Hebrews 1:8, and that speaks for itself. I would be worried about this, if I were a Christian and involved with the Witnesses. But, ultimately, it is your business.

    And again, how does Hebrews 1 not disprove the notion that Jesus is Michael? It claims he is not an angel, that Jehovah never termed an angel his son.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Feb 16, 2011 at 22:40.

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    Default Is the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society a cult?

    The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society defined the word "cult" for all
    Jehovah's Witnesses and non-Witnesses to see in their February 15, 1994 edition of the Watchtower Magazine.



    Let's see if the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society fits its definition of a cult.

    "Cult members often isolate themselves from family, friends, and even society in general."
    (The Watchtower, February 15, 1994, pp. 6-7)

    The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society practices shunning(ex-communication of family, friends, and former witnesses), disfellowshipping(removal of the Congregation), and the Jehovah's Witness children are discouraged from engaging in afterschool activities with "worldly" non-Witness children.

    Irrefutable Evidence:

    "Listen! "it is expected" that you will have no
    extra-curricular activities outside of the Watchtower. Such activity is a "danger" and "worldly". Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry 1983, p. 133.

    "Children should get away from disfellowshipped parents as soon as they are old enough to leave." (Watchtower, 11/15/52, p. 703. )

    "If a child of someone is disfellowshipped from the Kingdom Hall, the parent is to refuse to listen to the child's reason."( Organization for Kingdom-Preaching and Disciple-Making1972, p. 173.)

    "Disfellowshipped children, legally of age will be kicked out of the home." (Watchtower, 11/15/52, p. 703. )


    You are reminded that involvement in after-school sports tie you down, requiring you to spend evenings and weekends playing on a school team. You are expected to be at the lectures at the Kingdom Hall. "Any recreation you take outside of school should not be with worldly youths." Watchtower, 9/1/64, p.535.

    "Cheerleaders lead people into "frenzied cheering ... hero worship ... glorifying humans." School and Jehovah's Witnesses, 1983, pp.23-24. Never become a homecoming queen! This would 'set up womanhood upon a pedestal." Watchtower, 6/15/64, p.381.

    "In fact, the month Of May of Mother's Day is understood to be named after Maia, a demon worshiped by the pagans. . . . "' (Awake 5/8/1956, p. 25)

    "We all need to face up to the fact that Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah, the God of truth. Then what is their source? ... Satan the Devil."(WT 12/15/1983, p. 7)


    "No Jehovah's Witness should want to go to college." Watchtower,9/1/75, p.543; Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock, 1977, p. 105..

    "Do not pursue higher education." Watchtower 3/15/1969, p. 171

    "If a JW joins another religion, an announcement is made to the congregation to stop associating with him." (WT 10/15/1986 p.31)

    "If someone used to be a Jehovah's Witness, "We must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme ~ active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest." Watchtower, 10/1/52, p.599.


    "The real danger of playing chess is it's military nature, the equivalent of the maneuvers enacted by little boys with toy soldiers." Awake !, 3/22/73, pp.12-14.

    Awake! 1986 october 22:
    "My father said that the Witnesses would brainwash me, to which I replied that my brain needed a good washing."

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Well, you have the only bible that changes Hebrews 1:8, and that speaks for itself. I would be worried about this, if I were a Christian and involved with the Witnesses. But, ultimately, it is your business.

    And again, how does Hebrews 1 not disprove the notion that Jesus is Michael? It claims he is not an angel, that Jehovah never termed an angel his son.
    The NWT has been called the best version in the world. So not everyone feels the way you do. As I have said, every version has "God, thy God" or a rendition of, which in turn should automatically alarm a logically thinking person, that Jesus has a God. The bible says men should act as god. Calls Satan to god of this system. Only when Jesus is called Mighty God, is it confused with him being Almighty God. God is just a title of authority, which this Hebrew verse is showing. Jesus said in Mat 28:18 That all authority has been given to him in heaven and earth. That scripture sounds a lot like the Hebrew verses. God bestowing power to Jesus.

    And this verse Heb 1:9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”

    Who are Jesus partners here? As I said, if he is 1/3 of the Trinity, seperate individuals, all of equal power, All God, then somehow, The Father gave Jesus more authority then himself and the Holy Spirit, (who by the way mysteriously does not voice his opinion of the matter here) That would then mean that Jesus was now more powerful than his partners in the trinity, The Father, and The Holy Spirit. It's saying he became sole owner of the franchise, in effect. Then that refutes the Trinity. Why then would the other verse say "God, thy God"? Jesus would now in effect be God alone, having no God.

    On the other hand, since it says "God thy God" and speaks of Angels, and comparing Jesus to what God is doing for him, instead of other angels, logic dictates that Jesus is an angel, And Jehovah has given him a higher office above his fellow angels.

    It just makes way more sense then the way you see it. Adds up.

    Is
    Jesus Christ the same person as Michael the archangel?

    The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as “one of the chief princes,” “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.

    At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. (Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.)

    Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.
    Last edited by Knicks4lyfe; Feb 17, 2011 at 11:56.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    I assume you are an International Bible Student, since you are defending Charles Taze Russell.

    I am not in any religion, nor am I interested in joining any religion, but I respect your opinion.

    Good luck to you.
    I am a Christian by religion, associated with the Bible Students movement.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    The NWT has been called the best version in the world. So not everyone feels the way you do. As I have said, every version has "God, thy God" or a rendition of, which in turn should automatically alarm a logically thinking person, that Jesus has a God. The bible says men should act as god. Calls Satan to god of this system. Only when Jesus is called Mighty God, is it confused with him being Almighty God. God is just a title of authority, which this Hebrew verse is showing. Jesus said in Mat 28:18 That all authority has been given to him in heaven and earth. That scripture sounds a lot like the Hebrew verses. God bestowing power to Jesus.

    And this verse Heb 1:9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”

    Who are Jesus partners here? As I said, if he is 1/3 of the Trinity, seperate individuals, all of equal power, All God, then somehow, The Father gave Jesus more authority then himself and the Holy Spirit, (who by the way mysteriously does not voice his opinion of the matter here) That would then mean that Jesus was now more powerful than his partners in the trinity, The Father, and The Holy Spirit. It's saying he became sole owner of the franchise, in effect. Then that refutes the Trinity. Why then would the other verse say "God, thy God"? Jesus would now in effect be God alone, having no God.

    On the other hand, since it says "God thy God" and speaks of Angels, and comparing Jesus to what God is doing for him, instead of other angels, logic dictates that Jesus is an angel, And Jehovah has given him a higher office above his fellow angels.

    It just makes way more sense then the way you see it. Adds up.


    Is
    Jesus Christ the same person as Michael the archangel?


    The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as “one of the chief princes,” “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.

    At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. (Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.)

    Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.
    Thank you for the reply, but I wish you would simply use the bible to make your points. Pasting material haphazardly, straight from someone else's words is confusuing.

    As you know, the NWT is basically new: it is barely 50 years old. The books of the bible, meanwhile, are ancient and have been translated and compiled by other groups, for thousands of years. Below are numerous translations of Hebrews 1:8.

    FIRST THE NWT:

    8 But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

    In each version below, the son is called "Oh" God, after his throne is referred to.



    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But to the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But God said about his Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter in your kingdom is a scepter for justice.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But to the Son he said, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    But of the Son he says, Your seat of power, O God, is for ever and ever; and the rod of your kingdom is a rod of righteousness.
    • Are you saying that thousands of years of expert translators, from a variety of Christian backgrounds, are mistranslating the bible, until Fred Franz shows up?
    • If so, why are other religious groups not following suit? Do you think they would purposely refuse to worship God the right way by leaving mistranslations of the bible intact, in spite of Franz's information?

    As for Jesus being Michael, you do not post the specific scriptures, and I really do not want to painstakenly look up each scripture. If you want to prove your position to me, please post the actual scriptures.

    Right now, I have this.

    Hebrews 1:

    4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
    “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    • A long time ago, you told me that if I was claiming the WTBS was wrong on an issue you would be willing to look at what I had to say. I am, so far, stumped as to how angels could worship Jesus, unless Jesus is Jehovah manifested in the flesh.
    • I also want to know how Jehovah could say that Jesus is superior to the angels, if he is an angel.
    I am interested in what YOU have to say, if YOU choose to answer yourself.

    God bless

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    • Are you saying that thousands of years of expert translators, from a variety of Christian backgrounds, are mistranslating the bible, until Fred Franz shows up?
    • If so, why are other religious groups not following suit? Do you think they would purposely refuse to worship God the right way by leaving mistranslations of the bible intact, in spite of Franz's information?
    I'm saying that those translations have been geared toward a trinitarian viewpoint. Because a lot of times, there is an instance where a translated word can mean more than a specific word. For instance, those bibles use worship in Hebrews 1:6. Ours says Obeisance. Both words show venerable respect toward the person, but worship makes it appear as if he is God, obeisance is reverential respect for an authoritive figure. Same thought in some ways, but the words will take you to opposite spectrums.

    That said, the biblical evidence is overwhemling. I honestly do not see how one can get around "God, Thy God". To me, it ends right there. I don't know why it does not for you. God cannot have a God, unless God is being referred to as an authoritive figure only, not as the most high. Then it absolutely makes sense.

    It makes sense to you that God has a God? It makes sense to you that 1/3 of the Godhead gave power to another 1/3 of God? And what of the Holy Spirit? Where is that person? He has nothing to say? No objections to the Father raising Jesus above 2/3 of the Trinity?

    The surrounding text indicates he is being given a higher office than the other angels. Since no God was mentioned until His God called him God. Plus, if you're right, then there is no trinity, Jesus stands as God alone. Can't have it both ways.

    Also consider Col 1:15, where it calls Jesus the firstborn of all creatures. God has no creator. If Jesus is a creature, then he had a beginning. Therefore being totally disqualified as Almighty God. Also consider Jesus words in heaven, having this authority that was given to him by God, saying in chapter 3 verse 12- “‘The one that conquers—I (Jesus) will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

    Why is God still in heaven with authority, saying he has a God? Only logical explanation is he is not almighty God, but has God like authority in ways, which were given to him by the Father.

    And there are many instances where he says everything he knows, he learned from the Father, he said that concerning the time of the end, Not the Son, nor the Angels in Heaven, know the time of the end, only the Father.

    How is it that Jesus, 1/3 God, didn't know when he will bring the end? What about the Holy Spirit? How come he didn't know? How is it that Jesus said only the Father knew the time of the end? That would mean that in some way, the Father was more powerful, or at least stronger in not giving up secrets dept than Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But does it really make sense that the trinity means that The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are all individuals making up the same being, but The Father somehow knows more than the other two, and dictates who gets what power, says what, does what? Logic dictates that if The Father is calling all the shots, he has got to be stronger than Jesus and The Holy Spirit. Unless you got something better, I have to side with JW's viewpoint here, because I don't have to twist my mind in some wierded out way to wrap my head around something that those who believe in the trinity call a mystery.




    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    As for Jesus being Michael, you do not post the specific scriptures, and I really do not want to painstakenly look up each scripture. If you want to prove your position to me, please post the actual scriptures.
    1 thess 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first

    Why would Jesus, God, decide to use the voice of a lesser being to ressurect the dead? Makes no sense, unless he is the arch angel

    Jude
    9 But when Mi′cha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you

    This is the only angel ever called arch. This harmonizes well with Jehovah bestowing more power to Jesus over the other angels, making him the Chief.


    Dan12:1 “And during that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book.

    And Jesus is God's chosen King who will act on behalf of God's people during the great tribulation and armageddon.

    It's just a very logical conclussion. Very, very sensible.

    Question for you. Who do the descriptions fit when speaking about this particular angel in rev 10? 1 And I saw another strong angel descending from heaven, arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as the sun, and his feet were as fiery pillars, 2 and he had in his hand a little scroll opened. And he set his right foot upon the sea, but his left one upon the earth, 3 and he cried out with a loud voice just as when a lion roars. And when he cried out, the seven thunders uttered their own voices

    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    Right now, I have this.

    Hebrews 1:

    4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
    “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
    • A long time ago, you told me that if I was claiming the WTBS was wrong on an issue you would be willing to look at what I had to say. I am, so far, stumped as to how angels could worship Jesus, unless Jesus is Jehovah manifested in the flesh.
    • I also want to know how Jehovah could say that Jesus is superior to the angels, if he is an angel.
    I am interested in what YOU have to say, if YOU choose to answer yourself.

    God bless
    I explained the worship part. Jesus is the Arch Angel, or chief of the angels, meaning the strongest, most authoritive figure amongst them, therefore superior in that regard.

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