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Thread: what does the bible really teach?

  1. #121
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Why would god create so much evidence for evolution? So much evidence against him. This is the candy I'm speaking of. He creates so much information that proves his book to be wrong and then kills us for following the data (eating candy)? Even though he tells us in his book (parent telling child not to eat candy), he kills us for following the things he created that prove his book wrong. Or if it's satan that created all the fossil, genetic, chemical and physical evidence that proves evolution to be true, why create satan? What's the point? People can still have free will without satan. We can still have free will without the overwhelming temptation. Are you telling me satan created DNA? Satan created radioactive half-lives that make dating so accurate? This is more than just free will. All of the evidence against god would more like burying the child in candy and only putting one tiny morsel of food that is not candy. Essentially stacking the deck so he made sure the child would eat the candy so he could kill him. Hence why 99% of his creation is going to be killed.

    And you call this love? Any parent that places candy all over their house, tells them not to eat the candy, then kills them for eating the candy even though they knew ahead of time that the child would eat the candy anyway, is just plain cruel. No matter how much you try to spin it, none of it follows any sort of logic. You totally dodged this analogy by claiming god's people don't have candy. That still doesn't account for the actions of killing children that the parent tempted and knew they would do wrong in the first place. And you claim this makes perfect sense. SMH. I am completely amazed you tell yourself this makes perfect sense with such conviction. How can any person think this makes sense?

    So he's trying to prove to the witnesses, that the way the witnesses live is the right way. WTF?!? Wouldn't you already know that, being witnesses and all? What's the point? What's he trying to prove? Prove to you that you were right? You already know that. No, this just follows the ego trip that being a JW gives you. It makes you feel better about yourself thinking that you figured it out and everybody else is wrong. You have to have the last word and be right. That's what this is all about. To prove to yourself and all the evil people that made the world you grew up in an unhappy place, that YOU were right and THEY were wrong.

    So he plans to demean satan and destroy satan so people can live the way he intended. Why not just do that in the first place? Seems like a lot of unneccessary killing for a perfect, all-knowing being. And there's that "not what he intended" thing again. As if a perfect being can have anything that he did not intend. If he wanted us to have free will and live the way he intended, he would have created that from the beginning. He's perfect. He can create anything. No point in going through all this suffering and death. Just do it. Again, no matter how much you spin it, it doesn't follow logic, at all. Call me stupid all you want, but I'm sorry, there is no logic in this at all. Free will is not the answer. People can have free will without satan.

    Adam and Eve lived with temptation and free will before satan. God created satan knowing that they would fail because of it, just so he could kill humans. He knew ahead of time that satan would win, yet he made him anyway. Why? So he can prove to satan, the one he created and knew would win, that god is more powerful? Satan already knows that, he knows god created him. Yeah, that makes total sense. *rolling my eyes*

    The facts still remain. I have mountains of facts and evidence that contradicts the bible. You have no evidence. People doing what the bible tells them to do is not evidence. I don't know why you claim this. And just because you think you're smarter than scientists and claim they are not facts, doesn't mean they aren't. It's up to you to prove they are false. Not just claim science is imperfect and move on. Provide data that contradicts these facts.

    You say variation within species does not produce speciation (even though this is completely false), please provide the data that supports your theories on the subject. You say the fossil records are wrong. Please provide your data that proves them wrong. I'm quite positive archeologists would like to see your data since they apparently have been misunderstanding what they got their PHd's in. You say the genetic evidence is false, can you please provide the data that proves geneticists wrong? Please enlighten us ignorant sinners confused by Satan. You're so smart and know they are wrong, please provide the appropriate data.

    Like I said, I guarantee, with 100% certainty, god is not coming down to kill 99% of his creation. You will see someday.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Jan 24, 2011 at 07:00.

  2. #122
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    K4L, in regards to your claim that JW's are the most peaceful religious community in the world, there are many, many religious groups that practice non-violence. The Quakers and Mennonites are two such Christian groups.

    Additionally, ahimsa (which means "not killing") is a part of the main Indian religions. In addition to humans, it extends non-violence to animals. So, while most JW's wear and use leather and eat meat, many Jains, Hindus and Buddhists see this as violence and, in addition to refusing to make war on humans, refuse to make war on animals.

    It should also be noted that JW's support the divinely-ordained wars of the bible, as well as divine war on unbelievers and their "system of things," meaning that you are not against war in and of itself. You are against man-made war. A very precarious peace, indeed.

  3. #123
    Enlightened OGKnickfan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Why would god create so much evidence for evolution? So much evidence against him. This is the candy I'm speaking of. He creates so much information that proves his book to be wrong and then kills us for following the data (eating candy)? Even though he tells us in his book (parent telling child not to eat candy), he kills us for following the things he created that prove his book wrong. Or if it's satan that created all the fossil, genetic, chemical and physical evidence that proves evolution to be true, why create satan? What's the point? People can still have free will without satan. We can still have free will without the overwhelming temptation. Are you telling me satan created DNA? Satan created radioactive half-lives that make dating so accurate? This is more than just free will. All of the evidence against god would more like burying the child in candy and only putting one tiny morsel of food that is not candy. Essentially stacking the deck so he made sure the child would eat the candy so he could kill him. Hence why 99% of his creation is going to be killed.

    And you call this love? Any parent that places candy all over their house, tells them not to eat the candy, then kills them for eating the candy even though they knew ahead of time that the child would eat the candy anyway, is just plain cruel. No matter how much you try to spin it, none of it follows any sort of logic. You totally dodged this analogy by claiming god's people don't have candy. That still doesn't account for the actions of killing children that the parent tempted and knew they would do wrong in the first place. And you claim this makes perfect sense. SMH. I am completely amazed you tell yourself this makes perfect sense with such conviction. How can any person think this makes sense?

    So he's trying to prove to the witnesses, that the way the witnesses live is the right way. WTF?!? Wouldn't you already know that, being witnesses and all? What's the point? What's he trying to prove? Prove to you that you were right? You already know that. No, this just follows the ego trip that being a JW gives you. It makes you feel better about yourself thinking that you figured it out and everybody else is wrong. You have to have the last word and be right. That's what this is all about. To prove to yourself and all the evil people that made the world you grew up in an unhappy place, that YOU were right and THEY were wrong.

    So he plans to demean satan and destroy satan so people can live the way he intended. Why not just do that in the first place? Seems like a lot of unneccessary killing for a perfect, all-knowing being. And there's that "not what he intended" thing again. As if a perfect being can have anything that he did not intend. If he wanted us to have free will and live the way he intended, he would have created that from the beginning. He's perfect. He can create anything. No point in going through all this suffering and death. Just do it. Again, no matter how much you spin it, it doesn't follow logic, at all. Call me stupid all you want, but I'm sorry, there is no logic in this at all. Free will is not the answer. People can have free will without satan.

    Adam and Eve lived with temptation and free will before satan. God created satan knowing that they would fail because of it, just so he could kill humans. He knew ahead of time that satan would win, yet he made him anyway. Why? So he can prove to satan, the one he created and knew would win, that god is more powerful? Satan already knows that, he knows god created him. Yeah, that makes total sense. *rolling my eyes*

    The facts still remain. I have mountains of facts and evidence that contradicts the bible. You have no evidence. People doing what the bible tells them to do is not evidence. I don't know why you claim this. And just because you think you're smarter than scientists and claim they are not facts, doesn't mean they aren't. It's up to you to prove they are false. Not just claim science is imperfect and move on. Provide data that contradicts these facts.

    You say variation within species does not produce speciation (even though this is completely false), please provide the data that supports your theories on the subject. You say the fossil records are wrong. Please provide your data that proves them wrong. I'm quite positive archeologists would like to see your data since they apparently have been misunderstanding what they got their PHd's in. You say the genetic evidence is false, can you please provide the data that proves geneticists wrong? Please enlighten us ignorant sinners confused by Satan. You're so smart and know they are wrong, please provide the appropriate data.

    Like I said, I guarantee, with 100% certainty, god is not coming down to kill 99% of his creation. You will see someday.
    All great points;however, I'd like to point out that the Christian, particularly the JW, will give you the answer that God is fighting evil and, though they believe he is omnipotent, has no connection in creating evil. Rather, they believe in good vs. evil, the divine only being associated with the former. This, however, as you so effectively pointed out [in a number of ways] brings into question the omnipotence of the so-called omnipotent being Christians describe as God, or the supreme being.

    In spiritual studies, JW, like other Abrahamic religions', conception of the divine is described as being part of the good vs. evil duality paradigm, as opposed to non-duality (belief that, regardless of ideas of good and evil, there is only one, all consuming force or being, i.e.m, your gravity example). Non-duality is par for the course amongst most of the Eastern religions and philosophies. You should research some of these, as they are often either agnostic or atheistic.

    I also agree with your candy analogy and would say that the supreme is not an angry, vicious man. Furthermore, I don't believe a savior merely wants to save people that have already met the savior's requirements, which is not salvation at all. Rather, the savior wishes to save those that are lost, those that are suffering. So, even if the idea of a Christian God is accepted, salvation would be for all, not for exclusive groups. If one understands Jesus' message, it is clear this is the case in Christianity. I ask you to not associate Jesus with his so-called representatives. But, rather, let him speak to you for himself (this is not meant to have you become a Christian, as I am not one).

    Ultimately, I agree with, and recommend [to you], Taoism's conception of the divine: an egoless, non-judgmental force, perpetually absorbing, and then radiating outwardly, all that is. The point is not to have it exist for our own sakes but to forsake ourselves to allow it to finally wash over us, giving up our daily struggles and allowing it to give us the peace that comes from ceasing all pursuit of an idea of happiness, a conditional happiness (heaven, paradise Earth, etc.), in exchange for the happiness that comes from that which is beyond the mind, words, human emotion, etc.

    PEACE.

  4. #124
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    Where Are the Dead?

    What happens to us when we die?
    Why do we die?

    Would it be comforting to know the truth about death?
    THESE are questions that people have thought about for thousands of years. They are important questions. No matter who we are or where we live, the answers concern each one of us.

    2 In the preceding chapter, we discussed how the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ opened the way to everlasting life. We also learned that the Bible foretells a time when “death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:4) Meanwhile, we all die. “The living are conscious that they will die,” said wise King Solomon. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) We try to live as long as possible. Still, we wonder what will happen to us when we die.

    3 When our loved ones die, we mourn. And we may ask: ‘What has happened to them? Are they suffering? Are they watching over us? Can we help them? Will we ever see them again?’ The world’s religions offer differing answers to these questions. Some teach that if you live a good life, you will go to heaven but if you live a bad life, you will burn in a place of torment. Other religions teach that at death, people pass on to the spirit realm to be with their ancestors. Still other religions teach that the dead go to an underworld to be judged and are then reincarnated, or reborn in another body.

    4 Such religious teachings all share one basic idea—that some part of us survives the death of the physical body. According to almost every religion, past and present, we somehow live on forever with the ability to see, hear, and think. Yet, how can that be? Our senses, along with our thoughts, are all linked to the workings of our brain. At death, the brain stops working. Our memories, feelings, and senses do not continue to function independently in some mysterious way. They do not survive the destruction of our brain.

    WHAT REALLY HAPPENS AT DEATH?
    Where did the flame go?
    5 What happens at death is no mystery to Jehovah, the Creator of the brain. He knows the truth, and in his Word, the Bible, he explains the condition of the dead. Its clear teaching is this: When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. We do not possess an immortal soul or spirit.*

    6 After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” He then enlarged on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that “there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in [the grave].” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6,*10) Similarly, Psalm 146:4 says that when a man dies, “his thoughts do perish.” We are mortal and do not survive the death of our body. The life we enjoy is like the flame of a candle. When the flame is put out, it does not go anywhere. It is simply gone.

    WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT DEATH
    7 Jesus Christ spoke about the condition of the dead. He did so with regard to Lazarus, a man whom he knew well and who had died. Jesus told his disciples: “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest.” The disciples thought that Jesus meant that Lazarus was resting in sleep, recovering from an illness. They were wrong. Jesus explained: “Lazarus has died.” (John 11:11-14) Notice that Jesus compared death to rest and sleep. Lazarus was neither in heaven nor in a burning hell. He was not meeting angels or ancestors. Lazarus was not being reborn as another human. He was at rest in death, as though in a deep sleep without dreams. Other scriptures also compare death to sleep. For example, when the disciple Stephen was stoned to death, the Bible says that he “fell asleep.” (Acts 7:60) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote about some in his day who had “fallen asleep” in death.—1*Corinthians 15:6.
    Jehovah made humans to live forever on earth

    8 Was it God’s original purpose for people to die? Not at all! Jehovah made man to live forever on earth. As we learned earlier in this book, God placed the first human couple in a delightful paradise. He blessed them with perfect health. Jehovah wanted only good for them. Does any loving parent want his children to suffer the pain of old age and death? Of course not! Jehovah loved his children and wanted them to enjoy endless happiness on earth. Concerning humans, the Bible says: “Time indefinite [Jehovah] has put in their heart.” (Ecclesiastes 3:11) God created us with the desire to live forever. And he has opened the way for that desire to be fulfilled.

    WHY HUMANS DIE
    9 Why, then, do humans die? To find the answer, we must consider what happened when there was only one man and one woman on earth. The Bible explains: “Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food.” (Genesis 2:9) However, there was one restriction. Jehovah told Adam: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:16,*17) This command was not difficult to obey. There were many other trees from which Adam and Eve could eat. But they now received a special opportunity to show their gratitude to the One who had given them everything, including perfect life. Their obedience would also show that they respected the authority of their heavenly Father and that they wanted his loving direction.

    10 Sadly, the first human couple chose to disobey Jehovah. Speaking through a serpent, Satan asked Eve: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” Eve replied: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.’”—Genesis 3:1-3.

    11 “You positively will not die,” said Satan. “God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.” (Genesis 3:4,*5) Satan wanted Eve to believe that she would benefit by eating the forbidden fruit. According to him, she could decide for herself what was right and what was wrong; she could do what she wanted. Satan also charged that Jehovah had lied about the consequences of eating the fruit. Eve believed Satan. So she picked some of the fruit and ate it. She then gave some to her husband, and he too ate some of it. They did not act in ignorance. They knew that they were doing exactly what God had told them not to do. By eating the fruit, they deliberately disobeyed a simple and reasonable command. They showed contempt for their heavenly Father and his authority. Such disrespect for their loving Creator was inexcusable!

    12 To illustrate: How would you feel if you raised and cared for a son or a daughter who then disobeyed you in a way that showed that he or she had no respect or love for you? That would cause you much heartache. Imagine, then, how hurt Jehovah must have felt when both Adam and Eve took a course of opposition to him.
    Adam came from the dust, and he returned to the dust

    13 Jehovah had no reason to sustain disobedient Adam and Eve forever. They died, just as he had said they would. Adam and Eve ceased to exist. They did not pass on to the spirit realm. We know this because of what Jehovah said to Adam after confronting him with his disobedience. God said: “You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God had made Adam from the dust of the ground. (Genesis 2:7) Before that, Adam did not exist. Therefore, when Jehovah said that Adam would return to the dust, He meant that Adam would return to a state of nonexistence. Adam would be as lifeless as the dust from which he was made.

    14 Adam and Eve could have been alive today, but they died because they chose to disobey God and thus sinned. The reason we die is that Adam’s sinful condition as well as death was passed on to all of his descendants. (Romans 5:12) That sin is like a terrible inherited disease from which no one can escape. Its consequence, death, is a curse. Death is an enemy, not a friend. (1*Corinthians 15:26) How grateful we can be that Jehovah provided the ransom to rescue us from this dreadful enemy!

    KNOWING THE TRUTH ABOUT DEATH IS BENEFICIAL
    15 What the Bible teaches about the condition of the dead is comforting. As we have seen, the dead do not suffer pain or heartache. There is no reason to be afraid of them, for they cannot harm us. They do not need our help, and they cannot help us. We cannot speak with them, and they cannot speak with us. Many religious leaders falsely claim that they can help those who have died, and people who believe such leaders give them money. But knowing the truth protects us from being deceived by those who teach such lies.

    16 Does your religion agree with what the Bible teaches about the dead? Most do not. Why? Because their teachings have been influenced by Satan. He uses false religion to get people to believe that after their body dies, they will continue to live in the spirit realm. This is a lie that Satan combines with other lies to turn people away from Jehovah God. How so?

    17 As noted earlier, some religions teach that if a person lives a bad life, after death he will go to a place of fiery torment to suffer forever. This teaching dishonors God. Jehovah is a God of love and would never make people suffer in this way. (1*John 4:8) How would you feel about a man who punished a disobedient child by holding his hands in a fire? Would you respect such a man? In fact, would you even want to get to know him? Definitely not! You would likely think that he was very cruel. Yet, Satan wants us to believe that Jehovah tortures people in fire forever—for countless billions of years!

    18 Satan also uses some religions to teach that after death people become spirits who must be respected and honored by the living. According to this teaching, the spirits of the dead can become powerful friends or terrible enemies. Many people believe this lie. They fear the dead and give them honor and worship. In contrast, the Bible teaches that the dead are sleeping and that we should worship only the true God, Jehovah, our Creator and Provider.—Revelation 4:11.

    19 Knowing the truth about the dead protects you from being misled by religious lies. It also helps you to understand other Bible teachings. For example, when you realize that people do not pass on to the spirit realm at death, the promise of everlasting life on a paradise earth takes on real meaning for you.

    20 Long ago, the righteous man Job raised this question: “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?” (Job 14:14) Can a lifeless person who is sleeping in death be brought back to life? What the Bible teaches about this is deeply comforting, as the next chapter will show.

    ***For a discussion of the words “soul” and “spirit,” please see the Appendix.

    WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES
    The dead do not see or hear or think.—Ecclesiastes 9:5.
    The dead are at rest; they do not suffer.—John 11:11.
    We die because we inherited sin from Adam.—Romans 5:12.


    Study Questions
    1-3. What questions do people ask about death, and what answers do various religions offer?
    4. What basic idea do many religions share concerning death?
    5, 6. What does the Bible teach about the condition of the dead?
    7. How did Jesus explain what death is like?
    8. How do we know that it was not God’s purpose for people to die?
    9. What restriction did Jehovah place upon Adam, and why was this command not difficult to obey?
    10, 11. (a)*How did the first human couple come to disobey God? (b)*Why was the disobedience of Adam and Eve a serious matter?
    12. What may help us to understand how Jehovah felt when Adam and Eve took a course of opposition to him?
    13. What did Jehovah say would happen to Adam at death, and what does this mean?
    14. Why do we die?
    15. Why is it comforting to know the truth about death?
    16. Who has influenced the teachings of many religions, and in what way?
    17. Why does the teaching of eternal torment dishonor Jehovah?
    18. Worship of the dead is based on what religious lie?
    19. Knowing the truth about death helps us to understand what other Bible teaching?
    20. What question will we consider in the next chapter?

  5. #125
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    "No. He is going to rid the world of Unrighteousness, and wickedness, so that Those who love Righteousness, can live in peace, as God intended. You can call that petty if you wish, your right. But for those who hate what this world is, and this world, right now is plain disgusting, let's call it what it is, it's a good thing. There is no love, no peace, stress, greed, immorality. I'm sorry, that is just bad. Everyone will say that it is bad, and we all agree that if these things were not so, humanity will be better off, yet people complain when God says he is actually going to do JUST THAT! Rid humanity of it's ills! Sheesh, talk about unappreciative."

    This is on equal footing, with the (in)doctrine(ations) of Hitler, and every other mass-murderer, leaders of genocide, and their cult members.

    Yet you are right, so it's cool. Millions of little girls, boys, men, women, families can be slaughtered because YOU as a man are so holy in your THOUGHT and INTERPRETATION of a book.

    You condone and look forward to mass slaughter and human genocide on the basis of personal interpretation -- and not even your own interpretation, but that of other men you empower.

    No? Sure, it's coming from God, the one entity in this pipeline of murder and slaughter who just happens to be invisible and silent to this entire world, aside from interpretation of man, so it must be righteous and true.

    If the man you revere the most in the JV community said he spoke to god, and god spok to him, and he needed to kill a public atheist who was converting JV's towards atheism, would you understand? What if he needed to just harass and threaten the atheist leader?

  6. #126
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    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    "No. He is going to rid the world of Unrighteousness, and wickedness, so that Those who love Righteousness, can live in peace, as God intended. You can call that petty if you wish, your right. But for those who hate what this world is, and this world, right now is plain disgusting, let's call it what it is, it's a good thing. There is no love, no peace, stress, greed, immorality. I'm sorry, that is just bad. Everyone will say that it is bad, and we all agree that if these things were not so, humanity will be better off, yet people complain when God says he is actually going to do JUST THAT! Rid humanity of it's ills! Sheesh, talk about unappreciative."

    This is on equal footing, with the (in)doctrine(ations) of Hitler, and every other mass-murderer, leaders of genocide, and their cult members.

    Yet you are right, so it's cool. Millions of little girls, boys, men, women, families can be slaughtered because YOU as a man are so holy in your THOUGHT and INTERPRETATION of a book.

    You condone and look forward to mass slaughter and human genocide on the basis of personal interpretation -- and not even your own interpretation, but that of other men you empower.

    No? Sure, it's coming from God, the one entity in this pipeline of murder and slaughter who just happens to be invisible and silent to this entire world, aside from interpretation of man, so it must be righteous and true.

    If the man you revere the most in the JV community said he spoke to god, and god spok to him, and he needed to kill a public atheist who was converting JV's towards atheism, would you understand? What if he needed to just harass and threaten the atheist leader?
    It's not the interpretation of other men, it's understanding the theme of the bible, letting it tell us it's story.

    And while you say it's condoning mass murder, you are looking at it from selfish man's perspective. What about God's intentions? When are things going to get back to how he intended them to be? His purpose was for mankind to live forever in place on earth. When does that happen with all of this opposition towards God's will?

    What, all of a sudden Iran is gonna stop building WMD'S? All of a sudden, the war on terror gonna stop? All of a sudden, immorality will screech to a halt? Murder, stealing? Homelessness? Lawlessness? Yea, this world is doing so good, that it would be a crime for God to actually wanna make it a better place.

    Lemme ask you? When you vote, do you do so at the confidence that your vote will lead to change? If not the very least, there is a faint hope that your vote will make a diff in your life, and others, for the better, correct?

    That is what JW do by proclaiming the Kingdom of God. We are effectively saying, God's government over man's. Why? Because God's goverment will actually bring the positive changes all men claim to want.

    Satan's world is humanity trying it thier way, apart from God. We know this because no form of Goverment patterns their rulership after what God thinks. And have these man made governments done lasting good for humanity? Name one?

    And if you owned an apartment complex, with bad tenants, but a few good ones, would you remove the good ones and keep the bad ones? Would you just allow the good ones to be subjected to the bad ones? I think you would most likely choose to rid yourself of the bad ones to keep your good tenants happy.

    In effect, that is what Jehovah plans to do with his apartment complex. Those who wish to abide by the rules of the complex, stay. As the owner, it is Jehovah's right to evict those who do not wish to comply with the rules. The invitation to comply is open to all, is Jehovah to blame for those who decline? would you feel sorry for a messy, rude, violent, drug dealing tenant evicted, because of his behavior? I doubt you would take issue with any landlord wanting to rid himself of such a burden.

    Yet, when it's mentioned God wants to do it, woe is me! Should Jehovah just make another planet for those who wanna serve him to relocate to? And let everyone here just live how they wish, while he sustains their life? Would you support a cause you don't agree with? Do you help fund WMD'S? Biological warfare? If God never steps in to stop what humanity is doing, if he were to continue to allow an indefinate amount of time to pass without changing it, would he not also be privy to this? It is why he must stop it.

    If you choose to ignore God, even though he tries to reach out to you, why should he sustain your life? How can a person be deemed innocent to God, when they choose to ignore him?

    That is where mankind messes up. It's always about how we feel, never how our choices affect how God thinks.

    And no, if a brother did those things, I would know that fool has lost his mind, because Jehovah says vengeance belongs to him, not man.

  7. #127
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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    True: but I have a great deal of respect for the atheist (he who is allegedly seen as having no faith), in the sense that he wants more than just stories and is ethically disturbed by what he sees amongst the various religious people and their teachings.

    Instead of arguing with the atheist, I think the theist needs to accept the challenge [posed by the atheist] to think about how to tangibly experience his beliefs, thus gaining the atheist's respect. Ultimately, thinking about one's beliefs, trying to find something more than the words, which is what often frustrates atheists, is a positive thing.

    On the other hand, the atheist should take care not to confuse people who follow religion, with no real experience of what they teach, and mere faith, with people who have found "the tangible," few in number, of course, but still there.

    It's easy to hold oneself above reproach, in regard to belief or anything else, but it is the easiest way to ensure oneself is a fool, no matter what one believes.

    Faith, as such, should only be directed at self-enclosing thoughts and actions, e.g., being full of oneself.
    good quote

    Atheists usually know more about other religions, very true.

    But they usually just group Christianity, islam, everything in one category and call it religion and then say religion ruins societies, causes wars etc.

    You can't put belief in God into a box and call it religion. It's a lazy way of getting across your points. "Oh religion does this and that" so they can argue multiple types of faiths simultaneously.

    Too many differences yet most of them promoting peace and happiness and the Koran/Bible don't sound that different at time.


    NOW

    the theists is usually stubborn and most of what they say is experiential. The experience is something you really can't discredit. But how they got the experience can blow people away so much that they believe, this is the essential thing that theists should address.

    Seeing people go from killers to believers in Christ, an example being the Son of Sam, Apostle Paul, etc is something that I can't explain other than the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Men radically changed forever.

    Of course you can say this about any person and any religion.

    But the experience of the Jewish people, Christ, and the followers of Christ is what Christians need to focus on to influence people to the truth. The incredible odds of how everything unfolded the way it did.

    If you discredit stories, as you explained about the atheists, that they won't listen to stories, then most atheists might never understand scripture because it is all about stories. The interpretations, evidence relating to the text, supernatural experiences, is something that theists should focus on.


    My approach to non believers has changed significantly since i last argued people on this forum.

    Attacking gets us no where, now i've learned. Mocking gets us nowhere as i hope most of you have learned.

    Respecting each others faith is step one, which most people on this forum have not even completed.

    Then you can compare and contrast.

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    and theists usually don;t study other religions......i have noticed this. But it doesn't mean christians, muslims, jews are stupid or incapable of understanding an atheist....it's basically just the experience of radical positive change being so influential that when an atheist mocks the experience, it just turns into a battle.

    Respect on both sides is essential. Without respect, we shouldn't even bother posting these threads.

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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    good quote

    Atheists usually know more about other religions, very true.

    But they usually just group Christianity, islam, everything in one category and call it religion and then say religion ruins societies, causes wars etc.

    You can't put belief in God into a box and call it religion. It's a lazy way of getting across your points. "Oh religion does this and that" so they can argue multiple types of faiths simultaneously.

    Too many differences yet most of them promoting peace and happiness and the Koran/Bible don't sound that different at time.


    NOW

    the theists is usually stubborn and most of what they say is experiential. The experience is something you really can't discredit. But how they got the experience can blow people away so much that they believe, this is the essential thing that theists should address.

    Seeing people go from killers to believers in Christ, an example being the Son of Sam, Apostle Paul, etc is something that I can't explain other than the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Men radically changed forever.

    Of course you can say this about any person and any religion.

    But the experience of the Jewish people, Christ, and the followers of Christ is what Christians need to focus on to influence people to the truth. The incredible odds of how everything unfolded the way it did.

    If you discredit stories, as you explained about the atheists, that they won't listen to stories, then most atheists might never understand scripture because it is all about stories. The interpretations, evidence relating to the text, supernatural experiences, is something that theists should focus on.


    My approach to non believers has changed significantly since i last argued people on this forum.

    Attacking gets us no where, now i've learned. Mocking gets us nowhere as i hope most of you have learned.

    Respecting each others faith is step one, which most people on this forum have not even completed.

    Then you can compare and contrast.
    Bottom line is these conversations will always usually take on some hostile tone, because it affects one's way of life. If people feel their way of life is being ridiculed, it's natural to wanna defend it.

    For instance, this thread should have been totally abt what the bible really teaches. Yet not one post in reply, brought a single question based on the thread title. Yet, I'm the one seemingly with no respect for others beliefs.

    Respecting ones belief, is allowing people to believe as they wish in peace. It does not, however, it does not mean that because of this respect a viewpoint cannot be challenged.


    I have asked the supposed more respectable persons in this thread to not turn this thread into what it has become. hopefully now, we can resume in a more reasonable manner.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Why would god create so much evidence for evolution? So much evidence against him. This is the candy I'm speaking of. He creates so much information that proves his book to be wrong and then kills us for following the data (eating candy)? Even though he tells us in his book (parent telling child not to eat candy), he kills us for following the things he created that prove his book wrong. Or if it's satan that created all the fossil, genetic, chemical and physical evidence that proves evolution to be true, why create satan? What's the point? People can still have free will without satan. We can still have free will without the overwhelming temptation. Are you telling me satan created DNA? Satan created radioactive half-lives that make dating so accurate? This is more than just free will. All of the evidence against god would more like burying the child in candy and only putting one tiny morsel of food that is not candy. Essentially stacking the deck so he made sure the child would eat the candy so he could kill him. Hence why 99% of his creation is going to be killed.

    And you call this love? Any parent that places candy all over their house, tells them not to eat the candy, then kills them for eating the candy even though they knew ahead of time that the child would eat the candy anyway, is just plain cruel. No matter how much you try to spin it, none of it follows any sort of logic. You totally dodged this analogy by claiming god's people don't have candy. That still doesn't account for the actions of killing children that the parent tempted and knew they would do wrong in the first place. And you claim this makes perfect sense. SMH. I am completely amazed you tell yourself this makes perfect sense with such conviction. How can any person think this makes sense?

    So he's trying to prove to the witnesses, that the way the witnesses live is the right way. WTF?!? Wouldn't you already know that, being witnesses and all? What's the point? What's he trying to prove? Prove to you that you were right? You already know that. No, this just follows the ego trip that being a JW gives you. It makes you feel better about yourself thinking that you figured it out and everybody else is wrong. You have to have the last word and be right. That's what this is all about. To prove to yourself and all the evil people that made the world you grew up in an unhappy place, that YOU were right and THEY were wrong.

    So he plans to demean satan and destroy satan so people can live the way he intended. Why not just do that in the first place? Seems like a lot of unneccessary killing for a perfect, all-knowing being. And there's that "not what he intended" thing again. As if a perfect being can have anything that he did not intend. If he wanted us to have free will and live the way he intended, he would have created that from the beginning. He's perfect. He can create anything. No point in going through all this suffering and death. Just do it. Again, no matter how much you spin it, it doesn't follow logic, at all. Call me stupid all you want, but I'm sorry, there is no logic in this at all. Free will is not the answer. People can have free will without satan.

    Adam and Eve lived with temptation and free will before satan. God created satan knowing that they would fail because of it, just so he could kill humans. He knew ahead of time that satan would win, yet he made him anyway. Why? So he can prove to satan, the one he created and knew would win, that god is more powerful? Satan already knows that, he knows god created him. Yeah, that makes total sense. *rolling my eyes*

    The facts still remain. I have mountains of facts and evidence that contradicts the bible. You have no evidence. People doing what the bible tells them to do is not evidence. I don't know why you claim this. And just because you think you're smarter than scientists and claim they are not facts, doesn't mean they aren't. It's up to you to prove they are false. Not just claim science is imperfect and move on. Provide data that contradicts these facts.

    You say variation within species does not produce speciation (even though this is completely false), please provide the data that supports your theories on the subject. You say the fossil records are wrong. Please provide your data that proves them wrong. I'm quite positive archeologists would like to see your data since they apparently have been misunderstanding what they got their PHd's in. You say the genetic evidence is false, can you please provide the data that proves geneticists wrong? Please enlighten us ignorant sinners confused by Satan. You're so smart and know they are wrong, please provide the appropriate data.

    Like I said, I guarantee, with 100% certainty, god is not coming down to kill 99% of his creation. You will see someday.
    How come there is only one group of people "doing" what the bible tells em? And how I'd that not evidence? Thousands of yrs ago, Jesus said this work should be done throughout the entire world. Why has only one group responded to that? That also coincidentally observe his Father's will? That are coincidentally made of all nations in service to Jehovah?

    Sorry, too many instances like this biblically. And they all point to Jehovah being real, and backing JW as his people.

    What about Jehovah word for word, action for action, calling the fall of babylon in 539 ce? Cyrus never knew Jehovah, or that he said he would rescue the Jews from captivity. What abt that?

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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    and theists usually don;t study other religions......i have noticed this. But it doesn't mean christians, muslims, jews are stupid or incapable of understanding an atheist....it's basically just the experience of radical positive change being so influential that when an atheist mocks the experience, it just turns into a battle.

    Respect on both sides is essential. Without respect, we shouldn't even bother posting these threads.
    I did not mean to judge either side. We can't generalize with what are a wide range of people, on both sides. My point is that, when atheists challenge theists, theists need to accept the challenge and think, not just argue. And this goes for both sides. I think that when people fight, instead of thinking about the challenges posed, it stops the theist from helping the atheist see another side of the issue and vice versa. Taking challenges seriously helps us to grow.

    When an atheist or agnostic says that Christianity is, for example, the cause of war or is violent (something I used to think), there are several options: e.g., you, as a Christian, know the religion and can explain how this is not so, or you don't really know the religion and just attack the atheistic or agnostic perspective. You might also do research and try to see if this is the case and then inform the person as to the truth.

    As a non-Christian, I find I have a greater understanding of Christ's message than most Christians. My understanding tells me Jesus' message is completely non-violent, requiring love, peace and selflessness of his followers. As you have stated, people taking quotes out of the bible, without actually reading the gospels in their entirety, leads them to see Jesus in an incorrect light.

    I think that it is also noteworthy, however, for Christians to look in the mirror, when so many youth rage at their institutions. As a teacher, I can tell you that many youth feel alienated from Christianity because of its superficial, nonspiritual, rules-driven, leaders, who they tend to conflate with Jesus' real message. Many people think that what a person playing the part of a Christian says is the message is the message.

    Anyway, thanks for the reply. PEACE.

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    K4L, you have stated that people have taken the thread off course. I don't understand how this could be the case, since people have all been discussing the bible, some their disbelief in it, some their personal interpretations of specific parts, etc.

    Perhaps you had some sort of end in mind that is not simply having us ask and answer the question used to title the thread, "What does the bible really teach?" In that case, you should consider whether you might have titled the thread poorly. A title of a book (a closed document) is not necessarily a good title for a thread on a discussion forum.

    As a result, I have to respectfully tell you that I think the thread title is loaded: it should be something like, "What does the watchtower bible and tract society say the bible really teaches?" Then, it might make sense for you to call any non-Witness post off topic.

    Food for thought.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    K4L, you have stated that people have taken the thread off course. I don't understand how this could be the case, since people have all been discussing the bible, some their disbelief in it, some their personal interpretations of specific parts, etc.

    Perhaps you had some sort of end in mind that is not simply having us ask and answer the question used to title the thread, "What does the bible really teach?" In that case, you should consider whether you might have titled the thread poorly. A title of a book (a closed document) is not necessarily a good title for a thread on a discussion forum.

    As a result, I have to respectfully tell you that I think the thread title is loaded: it should be something like, "What does the watchtower bible and tract society say the bible really teaches?" Then, it might make sense for you to call any non-Witness post off topic.

    Food for thought.
    Abcd's rants were about the bible, or attacking JW?

    You have not answered any biblical questions posed by me yet. But you say you understand the bible more than Christians.

    That said, I meant the argumentative nature of the thread, not other interpretations, or views of others.
    I don't mind that, I do mind when l pose questions discussing the bible, that go ignored. Especially since, at the very least, I will go beyond the call of duty to answer any biblical questions for all inquiring.
    Last edited by Knicks4lyfe; Jan 26, 2011 at 07:29.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Abcd's rants were about the bible, or attacking JW?

    You have not answered any biblical questions posed by me yet. But you say you understand the bible more than Christians.

    That said, I meant the argumentative nature of the thread, not other interpretations, or views of others.
    I don't mind that, I do mind when l pose questions discussing the bible, that go ignored. Especially since, at the very least, I will go beyond the call of duty to answer any biblical questions for all inquiring.
    I think abcd came into the conversation, after the fact, because he read arguments, going back and forth, and disagreed with yours and where, biblically, they were coming from (watchtower doctrine). I think the title of the thread, as well as the nature of discussion forums opens things up to the possibility of the posting of comments with which you do not necessarily agree.

    As for the argumentative nature of the thread, I honestly feel you have been very argumentative and resentful in your replies to posts that are not argumentative, e.g., my posts to others on Christ and my posts on my biblical understandings.

    Your comments were rude and personal, while I only mentioned your religious doctrine and how it could be improved to better serve, and not hinder, individuals, which is what Jesus called his disciples to do. My biblical knowledge, which exceed that of many Christians (because I see and feel beyond Jesus' words), reminds me Jesus cleaned his disciples' feet and had them clean his, because all of his true disciples are to be servants, not accusers or judges, like the pharisees.

    As for the biblical/WTBS questions you have asked me, they seemed rhetorical and loaded, in their nature. You asked me what are primarily JW doctrine-related questions, in a sarcastic, condescending manner; you were not going to consider any part of my answer as valid, unless it agreed with your doctrine; and as someone who studied with witnesses, I know these questions are used to then set the person up for teaching watchtower doctrine. They were not asked in earnest. Moreover, you have dodged more questions than anyone else on this thread; so, it is unfair for you to get upset because, as I have stated, I refuse to answer loaded questions.

    I have seen your scripted answers, time and again, come from other witnesses; so, I don't blame you or any other witnesses for boasting and making lofty claims. It is what is done at JW meetings of all sorts. I also know you are used to loaded questions and scripted answers, like those asked at "talks" and meetings where no questions or answers, other than those from the watchtower, are accepted.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by OGKnickfan; Jan 26, 2011 at 12:58.

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    Originally Posted by OGKnickfan
    I think abcd came into the conversation, after the fact, because he read arguments, going back and forth, and disagreed with yours and where, biblically, they were coming from (watchtower doctrine). I think the title of the thread, as well as the nature of discussion forums opens things up to the possibility of the posting of comments with which you do not necessarily agree.

    As for the argumentative nature of the thread, I honestly feel you have been very argumentative and resentful in your replies to posts that are not argumentative, e.g., my posts to others on Christ and my posts on my biblical understandings.

    Your comments were rude and personal, while I only mentioned your religious doctrine and how it could be improved to better serve, and not hinder, individuals, which is what Jesus called his disciples to do. My biblical knowledge, which exceed that of many Christians (because I see and feel beyond Jesus' words), reminds me Jesus cleaned his disciples' feet and had them clean his, because all of his true disciples are to be servants, not accusers or judges, like the pharisees.

    As for the biblical/WTBS questions you have asked me, they seemed rhetorical and loaded, in their nature. You asked me what are primarily JW doctrine-related questions, in a sarcastic, condescending manner; you were not going to consider any part of my answer as valid, unless it agreed with your doctrine; and as someone who studied with witnesses, I know these questions are used to then set the person up for teaching watchtower doctrine. They were not asked in earnest. Moreover, you have dodged more questions than anyone else on this thread; so, it is unfair for you to get upset because, as I have stated, I refuse to answer loaded questions.

    I have seen your scripted answers, time and again, come from other witnesses; so, I don't blame you or any other witnesses for boasting and making lofty claims. It is what is done at JW meetings of all sorts. I also know you are used to loaded questions and scripted answers, like those asked at "talks" and meetings where no questions or answers, other than those from the watchtower, are accepted.

    God Bless.
    Bottom line is, you cannot tell me you have a better understanding of something I try and base my life around, without answering my questions. Obviously, these questions hold relevance. If indeed you do have a higher understanding of what I believe, it should be relatively easy to answer them. It sounds like an excuse "I know more than you and the rules of the watchtower, but I won't talk with you about it, because your questions are loaded". You know what I think? I think you don't have a clue in the world abt half of what you claim you do, biblically speaking. You say "i look beyond jesus words, so I know more than most Christians". Jesus taught his followers to pray for the kingdom to come. You are against God's kingdom coming, because it will Kill 99% of the population. Jesus knocked on doors to make Jehovah's name known, and told his followers to do the same. Do you do that? So these two examples is why I can't help but ask.. How the hell do you think you are more Christian, than a person who does what Jesus asks? That's nuts dude, seriously. I can live with you and ur philosophies. But when you take biblically, then I have to see what you know. And it's a whole lot less then you claim, IMO. However, if you can make sense of the questions I asked, I would change my mind on that.


    As far as personally goes, you think i'm blind and cannot see the clear, sybliminal backbiting you do in your postings? You have not had any sarcastic tone in your posts, huh? This what I mean abt you. Cut it out, man. "im gonna make a thread on spirituality, hopefully it doesn't suck". You were just saying that to be sayin it, huh? Please man, stop it.

    NOT answering according to how a person wishes Is not a dodge.

    And lastly, JW share a universal belief in God's word. We believe God is right, therefore JW beliefs cannot ever be deemed self righteous. You however, love to tell us how you think, what you have found, how much more you know, you know more than christians, etc. the things you claim JW and other sects are bound by, rules and such, you ignore the fact that Jesus was too! He had to obey God's rules as well. So how is it, you feel u don't have to? Yet, you have a higher understanding of Christ, who followed God's "rules". Yea, you have a higher understanding alright.

    I already know you do not have the answers I seek, because I study real sprituality. you wanna be spritual, without God. Fail. Epic.
    Last edited by Knicks4lyfe; Jan 26, 2011 at 13:56.

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