MDA -VS- Bigs: The Conundrum

Red said:

"Donnie... send in the f*cking reinforcemnts! We're getting killed out here!" I'll assume that's the general concensus around here.

But there's an underlying issue about to resurface again. Here's the facts:

1. We need size & depth
2. MIA looks to be the next powerhouse for years to come
3. We have assets
4. We've begun the rebuilding and have vested interests
5. MDA has DNP'd virtually all true centers we've had

Here is the REAL issue (posted in another forum)...

Between Curry, Darko, AR, Mozgov, Barron to an extent, and more, coach MDA has proven to want/need some one perfect in order to play.

Add that to the fact that WE HAVE A 4 YEAR WINDOW TO COMPETE WITH ARGUABLY THE BEST PROJECTED TEAM (MIA) over that span and will NEED big men going forward if we expect to compete and...

1) knowing MDA's lack of big man support, how does Walsh gage what value or who to give up without MDA'S approval?
2) How can we expect to really compete?
3) I can easily see an empass which Walsh (or Houston) has to decide if MDA is worth keeping compared to building a real team... right now that seems mutually exclusive. MDA run & gun small lineup big scorers -vs- a more conventional coach and roster

That's the conundrum.

Any big is better than we have... but not if he's DNP before he gets here, or has a chance to prove himself. Before we get anyone, we have to settle the imminent issue of MDA and bigs.

I say this b/c before discussing Verijao, McGee, Camby or whoever, we (Walsh) has to have a clear understanding of what MdA wants!

How is Walsh to know who's worth giving up or acquiring if all MDA has done is DNP. Sh*t, in hindsight, maybe if Walsh knew wassup, he would of gotten Ellis for Lee instead of DNP AR.

We must finally find out MDA's big man outlook before making anymore moves.

The great MDA DEBATE is about to resurface. Now we know we can score with the best of them with quality (one way) players what's still debatable is does MDA need a PF masquerading as a C?

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If Walshs keeps O'antoni.. he needs another PF... not a center..

that why ive been saying.. if we are going to go down this road with O'antoni.

we need another good PF to play alongside Amare and spell him so that there is still a low post presence when he is not in there..


David West
Nene
Varijo will work because he will hustle and get his points

while i would love a Mcgee.. he might not fit O'antoni style...but if that where we are as a team.. your right.. we have to get him players that fit his style of play

i do think Blanche would fit better

a healthy k mart would be perfect but hes done

ITS SIMPLE
another PF....

I agree with above. D'ant simply dosen't use a "center" Amar'e at the 5 is what he wants. if anything we need a true starting PF to play along with Amar'e. I think there are centers out there that play like PF's and could fit. I think there are PF's out there that would fit nicely.

If we are going by what would best fit the D'antoni model look for quick, offensively gifted PF's that can shoot the 15 footer and spread the floor. A good fit in d'ants team: David Lee. he'd be a great PF for us now that we have amar'e. a guy like that is exactly what the team needs. I know it's impossible but we are talking ideal situations and that is who i would pick for a D'ant coached team.

Away from David lee is a two way PF like Nene. He has good defensive awareness and is strong in the low post and does his part cleaning up boards. Varajoe is another option like Nene, but he's softer and more gifted on the offensive end then the defensive.

Outside of these guy pretty much most "true" pf's with offensive talents would be a good fit.

Chandler is not a viable option to start as a PF.

I didn't matter what Mozgov or Turiaf did at the starting center position, I knew Dantoini would find a way to get Amare to play center eventually. It's what he always wanted from the beginning but he had to act like he was conventional and give the new guy a look for walsh.

Walsh is probably waiting on the Melo situation before he gets this team another center.

nyk_nyk said:

I didn't matter what Mozgov or Turiaf did at the starting center position, I knew Dantoini would find a way to get Amare to play center eventually. It's what he always wanted from the beginning but he had to act like he was conventional and give the new guy a look for walsh.

Walsh is probably waiting on the Melo situation before he gets this team another center.

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That's f*cked up!

p0nder said:

Chandler is not a viable option to start as a PF.

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While we can get away with it against some teams at the end of the day your right. I c/s the threadstarter but the only center that really should be gettin minutes is Randolph, thats if you consider him to be a center. Turiaf is also worthy of minutes but sometimes he might not get as many minutes more because of his health then anything else. Basically what im sayin for the most part i dont blame Antoni for not playing mozgov and Mcflurry. I cant front on Milicic and randolph though, darko shoulda got playin time and randolph should be gettin playin time.

Red said:

We know what we need, the question is, does MDA?

You name McGee, Blache, etc... the way I see it...
If there are 142 Centers to start... (for example)

And you subtract the ones who can be dealt contract wise

Then subtract the ones who fit our needs

Then subtract the unavailable due to being too good

Then subtract the potential DNP'S due to coaches fickle tastes

And what we actually have is less than a handful of real viable options, maybe 2-3 at best.
Would you rather a PF playing out of position, or a center and a potential change @ the coaching spot...?

Right now it seems like we can't get both

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i would like a convential center like a mcgee.. and i belive walsh would to..

O antoni want a PF.. but you have to remember

Walsh had the Davis brothers in Indiana even thought Dale was a like a ben wallace type center.. he was still undersized...

so i think thats why walsh is undecided...

if your gonna keep this coach.. give him what he wants..

or he will diminsh the trade value of the DNPs

For those of you who vote "f*ck MDA", I hope you realize we could potentially be giving away talent for nothing since MDA will DNP most bigs he thinks doesn't fit. Are you really willing to go that route.

Its the AR / Lee situation all over again. Giving up quality for convention but wasted due to MDA's preferences.

Here's the choices:
1. Continue acquiring players to fit this unconventional coach with hopes for a miracle

2. Find a coach that can compete with a more conventional style and roster

3. Sell (make) MDA change and accept the short-comings of his style, implement more real bigs

4. Luck out and acquire the one big that is a bigger version of Amare

Red said:

For those of you who vote "f*ck MDA", I hope you realize we could potentially be giving away talent for nothing since MDA will DNP most bigs he thinks doesn't fit. Are you really willing to go that route.

Its the AR / Lee situation all over again. Giving up quality for convention but wasted due to MDA's preferences.

Here's the choices:
1. Continue acquiring players to fit this unconventional coach with hopes for a miracle

2. Find a coach that can compete with a more conventional style and roster

3. Sell (make) MDA change and accept the short-comings of his style, implement more real bigs

4. Luck out and acquire the one big that is a bigger version of Amare

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i mean he our coach..

i dont really like his unconvential none defensive appraoch ..but we are stuck with him

he may make a palyer like fields look good and make a player like darko AR and nate look bad..

nate is running the point for boston while rondo is out.. and they are still winning..

so what does that say

moneyg said:

i mean he our coach..

i dont really like his unconvential none defensive appraoch ..but we are stuck with him

he may make a palyer like fields look good and make a player like darko AR and nate look bad..

nate is running the point for boston while rondo is out.. and they are still winning..

so what does that say

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It says what some of us have been saying since MDA got here...

He's limited and over-rated
Nate CAN and should've been playing PG at 5'7"..duh!
And Doc is a better coach.

Also it says conventional wisdom trumps re-inventing the wheel

Part of this systems limitations is the inability to acquire such specific talent needed to perpetuate it

I'm telling you, we all love winning, but sooner or later all those thread debates we've had about MDA will come to fruician and some of us will be proven right.

This system can be effective, entertaining, and beaten by more conventional approaches.

Red said:

It says what some of us have been saying since MDA got here...

He's limited and over-rated
Nate CAN and should've been playing PG at 5'7"..duh!
And Doc is a better coach.

Also it says conventional wisdom trumps re-inventing the wheel

Part of this systems limitations is the inability to acquire such specific talent needed to perpetuate it

I'm telling you, we all love winning, but sooner or later all those thread debates we've had about MDA will come to fruician and some of us will be proven right.

This system can be effective, entertaining, and beaten by more conventional approaches.

Click to expand...

:agreed:
Well said

*Ellis wasn't taken bc of money. Plain n simple. AR was the wild card in the deal. Great potential, great potential to do little to nothing. A cheap KG 2.0 isn't traded otherwise. We also got Turiaf (a big who is a major player for us), and another wild card in Azzy.

Curry, Darko, Moz, AR, Barron

Cmon. An old d-leaguer; a rookie project from Russia we bought with money; an admitted lazy and ineffective player who's been considered one of the most mercurial and biggest draft busts ever; a 22yr old boom or bust headcase who has always been bust; Eddie Curry.

And to top it off, Walsh gave Barron starting time, as well as Moz.

All these guys are just some combo of suck or not-ready.

The one big who actually has a reasonably developed game and good attitude -- Turiaf -- of course was given starting time and consistently meaningful minutes.

D'ant isn't going to risk wins and our winning formula -- which incidentally began when AR became DNP to the tune of 15-5, and we started to be able to grind out and seal off games.

Re: the usual suspects

Nate has been Nate. He's playing point out of necessity and desperation. His steals, blocks, rebounds, assists, turnovers per/minutes are atrocious. All he is doing is shooting the 3 well.

But that's the past. And why we'd want n8 now is beyond me. We want a cheap and/or disciplined true pg who is seasoned w the p&r.

Bottomline: we are winnin and pretty much exceeding everyone's expectations. Why? Bc of our top offense, how it's unleashed players like Felton under d'ant, and bc we have a powerful if not imperfect game flow.

Convention n convential would just make us more mediocre.

Make no mistake we are winning principally bc of Felton, field, Chandler, even amare's assurance in his system b game flow.

iSaYughh said:

*Ellis wasn't taken bc of money. Plain n simple. AR was the wild card in the deal. Great potential, great potential to do little to nothing. A cheap KG 2.0 isn't traded otherwise. We also got Turiaf (a big who is a major player for us), and another wild card in Azzy.

Curry, Darko, Moz, AR, Barron

Cmon. An old d-leaguer; a rookie project from Russia we bought with money; an admitted lazy and ineffective player who's been considered one of the most mercurial and biggest draft busts ever; a 22yr old boom or bust headcase who has always been bust; Eddie Curry.

And to top it off, Walsh gave Barron starting time, as well as Moz.

All these guys are just some combo of suck or not-ready.

The one big who actually has a reasonably developed game and good attitude -- Turiaf -- of course was given starting time and consistently meaningful minutes.

D'ant isn't going to risk wins and our winning formula -- which incidentally began when AR became DNP to the tune of 15-5, and we started to be able to grind out and seal off games.

Re: the usual suspects

Nate has been Nate. He's playing point out of necessity and desperation. His steals, blocks, rebounds, assists, turnovers per/minutes are atrocious. All he is doing is shooting the 3 well.

But that's the past. And why we'd want n8 now is beyond me. We want a cheap and/or disciplined true pg who is seasoned w the p&r.

Bottomline: we are winnin and pretty much exceeding everyone's expectations. Why? Bc of our top offense, how it's unleashed players like Felton under d'ant, and bc we have a powerful if not imperfect game flow.

Convention n convential would just make us more mediocre.

Make no mistake we are winning principally bc of Felton, field, Chandler, even amare's assurance in his system b game flow.

Click to expand...

Yes I agree on somethings. Re: N8...
I'm not advocating his return, just responding to the question of whether or not he is/was capable of playing point. I said he was, he is, and when it comes to him playing off guard in MDA's system -vs- the conventional approach (him playing primarily the point, Doc has shown the way. Is he great, no. A beast, no. Can he do it? Yes.

Re: The bigs

There is no one on that list that's a superstar. But that isn't the point. The point is that those players including N8 have been used more effectively at one point or another except
The Gov.

That further illustrates the near impossibility of acquiring a Center worthy of minutes. Its hard enough considering the lack of quality available, to acquire a "customized" fit will be a miracle. MDA has had one worthy candidate for his system... and that's Amare. He's one out of over ten to twenty options MDA had. What are the odds there's another?

More so, even with an Amare at C, where bottom of the league in def. And rebs. So what does that say?

And yes MDA has selfishly choosen to field an undersized team to save himself... problem is (as we've witnessed)
1. Our stars will get worn down
2. He's sacrificing our 100million investment
3. We will not win it all anyway
4. We have unrealized assets sitting on the bench which we gave up players for
5. We cannot actually target anyone without knowing who's worthy of playing time... and as we have noticed the players who might be worthy, aren't available.

So yeah, in the short run, we are competing and better yet we are making the same mistakes as before. No depth due to fickleness, favoritism, and an unconventional approach as well as stubborn selfishness that...

Ultimately in the long run will prove that convention wins, adaptability wins, getting the most out of a player is better than nothing, extended minutes equal shorter careers, and MDA can lose by trying to outscore an opponenet but being beaten defensively and on the boards. Didn't the MIA games tell you anything? Defense wins games period.

The playoffs are cool, delaying the enevitable is not so much so. Ala the BOS redsox... the gm of this team must counter every move, and acquire every available player to match up against the best. That's should b the strategy, not repeat mistakes, and fight power with speed. That's futile and the definition of insanity.

Coach's philospophy on playing rookies I think applies w relation to bigs as well-- he's not against playing bigs, he's just not gonna play bad ones.

Darko isn't good and doesn't fit in w what do. Curry is self explanatory. AR sucks right now.


Mike D likes dynamic bigs who can defend and play multiple positionz.. Those are the types he doles out minutes to.

Gallo is a big too. He plays him.

The cock is soft right now tho..

He needs to mix it up more and be more physical more often, up his rebound average too.

Gallo is a tough dude imo. Eventually he'll round into form and take over the 4 spot. Atleast I would like to see this.

My 2 cents..

Red said:

"Donnie... send in the f*cking reinforcemnts! We're getting killed out here!" I'll assume that's the general concensus around here.

But there's an underlying issue about to resurface again. Here's the facts:

1. We need size & depth
2. MIA looks to be the next powerhouse for years to come
3. We have assets
4. We've begun the rebuilding and have vested interests
5. MDA has DNP'd virtually all true centers we've had

Here is the REAL issue (posted in another forum)...

Between Curry, Darko, AR, Mozgov, Barron to an extent, and more, coach MDA has proven to want/need some one perfect in order to play.

Add that to the fact that WE HAVE A 4 YEAR WINDOW TO COMPETE WITH ARGUABLY THE BEST PROJECTED TEAM (MIA) over that span and will NEED big men going forward if we expect to compete and...

1) knowing MDA's lack of big man support, how does Walsh gage what value or who to give up without MDA'S approval?
2) How can we expect to really compete?
3) I can easily see an empass which Walsh (or Houston) has to decide if MDA is worth keeping compared to building a real team... right now that seems mutually exclusive. MDA run & gun small lineup big scorers -vs- a more conventional coach and roster

That's the conundrum.

Any big is better than we have... but not if he's DNP before he gets here, or has a chance to prove himself. Before we get anyone, we have to settle the imminent issue of MDA and bigs.

I say this b/c before discussing Verijao, McGee, Camby or whoever, we (Walsh) has to have a clear understanding of what MdA wants!

How is Walsh to know who's worth giving up or acquiring if all MDA has done is DNP. Sh*t, in hindsight, maybe if Walsh knew wassup, he would of gotten Ellis for Lee instead of DNP AR.

We must finally find out MDA's big man outlook before making anymore moves.

The great MDA DEBATE is about to resurface. Now we know we can score with the best of them with quality (one way) players what's still debatable is does MDA need a PF masquerading as a C?

Click to expand...

Mike D has to go <hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1"> It kills me to say this, but he cant coach. If a player doesn't have any offensive value he is relegated to the bench. There is no other way to explain it. The last two games we get ABSOLUTELY mauled in the paint. But he keeps two 7 footers on the bench. Why Mike Why? Is there anyone in the media even asking these questions. The least these guys can do is foul Dwight, he shoots 50% from the line. There are other parts of basketball that I'm sure Moz and Randolph can help this out with other than scoring. Horrible coaching...

iSaYughh said:

*Ellis wasn't taken bc of money. Plain n simple. AR was the wild card in the deal. Great potential, great potential to do little to nothing. A cheap KG 2.0 isn't traded otherwise. We also got Turiaf (a big who is a major player for us), and another wild card in Azzy.

Curry, Darko, Moz, AR, Barron

Cmon. An old d-leaguer; a rookie project from Russia we bought with money; an admitted lazy and ineffective player who's been considered one of the most mercurial and biggest draft busts ever; a 22yr old boom or bust headcase who has always been bust; Eddie Curry.

And to top it off, Walsh gave Barron starting time, as well as Moz.

All these guys are just some combo of suck or not-ready.

The one big who actually has a reasonably developed game and good attitude -- Turiaf -- of course was given starting time and consistently meaningful minutes.

D'ant isn't going to risk wins and our winning formula -- which incidentally began when AR became DNP to the tune of 15-5, and we started to be able to grind out and seal off games.

Re: the usual suspects

Nate has been Nate. He's playing point out of necessity and desperation. His steals, blocks, rebounds, assists, turnovers per/minutes are atrocious. All he is doing is shooting the 3 well.

But that's the past. And why we'd want n8 now is beyond me. We want a cheap and/or disciplined true pg who is seasoned w the p&r.

Bottomline: we are winnin and pretty much exceeding everyone's expectations. Why? Bc of our top offense, how it's unleashed players like Felton under d'ant, and bc we have a powerful if not imperfect game flow.

Convention n convential would just make us more mediocre.

Make no mistake we are winning principally bc of Felton, field, Chandler, even amare's assurance in his system b game flow.

Click to expand...

Quality, Well thought out.

Clyde & The Pearl said:

Mike D has to go <hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1"> It kills me to say this, but he cant coach. If a player doesn't have any offensive value he is relegated to the bench. There is no other way to explain it. The last two games we get ABSOLUTELY mauled in the paint. But he keeps two 7 footers on the bench. Why Mike Why? Is there anyone in the media even asking these questions. The least these guys can do is foul Dwight, he shoots 50% from the line. There are other parts of basketball that I'm sure Moz and Randolph can help this out with other than scoring. Horrible coaching...

Click to expand...

Get that man a cigar!:smokin:

I would add, we've been killed inside (pause) all season... more than the last two games.

Are we trying to compete, or just sell tickets?