Fire Damntoni Now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iSaYughh

Starter
You have heard of Micheal Jordan havent you? Besides having Mike (THE GREATEST PLAYER EVER) that team also had size and rebounding. Comparing MDA's faults with Phoenix and now the Knicks against the Ewing lead Knicks is a stretch at best.

Phoenix was a good team OFFENSIVELY. Thats it. When you only concentrate on one side of the ball you wont make it to the finals. Which that team didnt. Phil Jackson learned early that defense wins championships. Remember he played at the garden where defense was first. Pops teams always play defense. Thats why they have rings to show for it. Any coach could have his team doing SSOL and not playing defense. Its not that innovative. But, Ultimately will you win with it?

I agree. We got very 'unlucky' in running into a premier dynasty. But it shows you can't just dismiss a team from being abler to win, just bc they didn't. U aren't doing that, but many have.

PHO still ran into a premier dynasty also. Were the Bulls more formidable? Sure. But that's a matter of degree, and it gets closer when you consider that Ewing/NY had better talent than PHO. Ewing/NY had the holy Grail of a HOF center -- PHO never had such a luxury, nor opportunity.

Not that PHO > Ewing Knicks even, but doesn't mean they couldn't have just as easily snagged a chip. Just as we easily could have w a bit more good fortune.

How did PHO lead the league in games won n battle a dynasty tooth n nail, if they weren't a legit team that could?

Ya, Pop and Jackson made their legacy of titles. But did PHO have even close to that talent up front, inherent to the franchise? Not talking guys who suddenly blossom. LAK lucksacked Kobe n Shaq, as Pop did Duncan, especially when they still had Robinson going.

I dont see why "SSOL" cant win it all given this. We just want, n maybe need, a better rounded team than the Suns.
 
I agree. We got very 'unlucky' in running into a premier dynasty. But it shows you can't just dismiss a team from being abler to win, just bc they didn't. U aren't doing that, but many have.

PHO still ran into a premier dynasty also. Were the Bulls more formidable? Sure. But that's a matter of degree, and it gets closer when you consider that Ewing/NY had better talent than PHO. Ewing/NY had the holy Grail of a HOF center -- PHO never had such a luxury, nor opportunity.

Not that PHO > Ewing Knicks even, but doesn't mean they couldn't have just as easily snagged a chip. Just as we easily could have w a bit more good fortune.

How did PHO lead the league in games won n battle a dynasty tooth n nail, if they weren't a legit team that could?

Ya, Pop and Jackson made their legacy of titles. But did PHO have even close to that talent up front, inherent to the franchise? Not talking guys who suddenly blossom. LAK lucksacked Kobe n Shaq, as Pop did Duncan, especially when they still had Robinson going.

I dont see why "SSOL" cant win it all given this. We just want, n maybe need, a better rounded team than the Suns.

Sure the Lakers had Kobe and Shaq. Spurs had Duncan. But, Nash, STAT, Joe Johnson and Marion are nothing to sneeze at. And instead of trading Joe Johnson for a 6 8 tweener Diaw why not get size if he was concerned about Duncan and Shaq. Could it be that he saw no use for size? He made his bed then, and he;s making it now. Seems to me he would have learned more from the mistakes he made in Phoenix.
 

KingofNy

Starter
I dont want to flame Mike D, but I have to reply to your post with a thumbs up.:peace: He doesnt play matchups. I've seen layup lines to the basket before games that offer more defensive resistance than the Knicks do during the game. No one steps in to take a charge. No one cuts their mans path off to the basket. Giving up the baseline has ALWAYS been a no-no in basketball, but we do it regularly. But hey if these cats think we can win with this coach more power to them. Just let it be known when we're ringless and Mike D is gone I'll be the first to tell you I TOLD YOU SO...

Yea I hear you man... I agree with everything you just posted. I really think when we get some more star power here it will change up this organization as a whole for the better, from Dolan down to D'Antoni. When you have multiple stars on a team sometimes they can become more powerful than the coach. If those "stars" aren't winning in a respectable fashion, they could put the needed pressure on our organization and press the need to stress defense or whatever problem (like the ones you listed above) needs to be fixed. It's hard right now as fans because our voice really isn't heard.

I think that D'Antoni's coaching abilities are really going to get thrown into the spotlight in the next year or 2. If we're not winning with our new stars and not playing defense, the whole country is going to turn on him and FAST and he'll be out of a job before he knows it... There's going to be a ton of talented coaches waiting in line for an opportunity to coach a team full of gifted superstars. Sooner or later D'Antoni will figure this out and maybe start incorporating defense into his gameplan...Hopefully sooner than later not just for the team, but for the fans that have been waiting 10+ years to see this organization put out a decent product.
 

KingofNy

Starter
:agreed:
Damn! KingofNY.... u are killing these Dantoni-Fans with the truth in each
of your posts.
I gave up debating with these Dantoni-Fans 2 years ago.
There were to many better headcoaches available in May 2008.
Herb Williams & Mark Aquire couldve coached Isiah's players into making
the playoffs to bring up their trade value in the 2008-9 season.

The new era of players like Dr. Jay in the 70's, Magic & Bird in the 80's,
and Jordan & Pippin in the 90's, had every High School baller thinking
offensive scoring first. This made the new era of coaches in college
and pros more team-oriented in implimenting team-offense/defense.
If a young kid is scoring 15 to 20 points per game in his last two years in
High School, who would u chose to be this kids coach in college?
A) Dantoni
B) JVG

I been watching the USA basketball team for 40 years, back when the USA
team was all college players. And never has any of the coaches been single-
out to be the teams offense-coach or defense-coach, except when Dantoni
was selected to be the offensive-coach on the USA team.
I wonder if Larry Brown, or Sloan, or Pop, or Phil Jackson wouldve accept
being singled-out as the USA team offensive-coach LOL
:teeth::teeth::teeth:

LOL I doubt they would. I wondered the same exact thing. I would pick JVG any day of the week to coach the college kid. I tell you what though, I would love for JVG to one day come back and coach this team... I loved him as our HC back in the day. I never really liked the D'Antoni signing at the time but at the time any change was better than nothing.

Other than our coach not preaching D, I think our organization is doing a good job acquiring talent and putting pieces together to build a quality team. First we get Stat to come here by himself with no assurance of playing with any other stars... They we don't go after Carmelo hard like the Nets did and that really worked towards our advantage. Honestly the Nets came off as desperate in the Anthony negotiations, why would he want to sign somewhere that's willing to guy their entire team for a chance at one player. And why would he want to go there and be in a worse situation than what he's in currently.

People around the world love watching a good offense and in most cities a good offense sells more seats than a good defense but the reality of the situation is that a good defense wins championships. Hopefully one day our organization will realize this.

I'll give you guys an example from the NFL. Colin Cowherd from ESPN ranted for weeks upon weeks early in the season about how the NFL is all about the QB's and the top ranked offenses... but take a look at the NFL's final 4 teams this year... All top defenses... A good defense trumps the best offense any day of the week in any sport. I don't understand why fellow New Yorkers don't see this and continue to be happy and support a coach that knows nothing about D except for the D in his last name. This team's success is going to solely reflect the defense we play. So D'Antoni either needs to change up his philosophy a bit, or he won't be here for long... I'll promise you guys that.

Thanks for the nice words Kiyaman.
 
Last edited:

KBlack25

Starter
I gave up debating with these Dantoni-Fans 2 years ago.

Really? Because then you continue:

Kiyaman said:
There were to many better headcoaches available in May 2008...

And whatever other incoherent ramblings with no facts or anything, talking about high school kids in college, when we clearly are talking about NBA-caliber players, not college freshmen who should sill have a ton to learn about the game.

But I thought you "gave up" Kiyaman...see you in another non-D'Antoni thread, then, I guess.
 

KBlack25

Starter
LOL I doubt they would. I wondered the same exact thing. I would pick JVG any day of the week to coach the college kid. I tell you what though, I would love for JVG to one day come back and coach this team... I loved him as our HC back in the day. I never really liked the D'Antoni signing at the time but at the time any change was better than nothing.

Good thing we aren't ****ING TALKING ABOUT COLLEGE BASKETBALL, A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME TO ANYONE WHO KNOWS THE SPORT! A game where development of young, 18 year old KIDS, is more important, and the team game is emphasized to a much greater extent.

KingofNY said:
Other than our coach not preaching D,

I didn't know you were in the practice, in the huddles, and at game day meetings where you hear his lack of preaching defense. Because when he is Mic'd up I hear him stressing defense consistently. But go ahead, continue to ignore things like "facts" and "reality" to make your point

KingofNY said:
I think our organization is doing a good job acquiring talent and putting pieces together to build a quality team. First we get Stat to come here by himself with no assurance of playing with any other stars...

Why do you think we were able to do that? The answer, to me, seems obvious. Besides STAT loving the spotlight, he came back to be back in the system (Mike D'Antoni's) where he played his best basketball...Mike D was a big reason STAT came here, if not THE reason STAT came here...and vicariously, if Carmelo comes here to play with STAT, Mike D'Antoni is a big part of us getting Carmelo.



KingofNY said:
I'll give you guys an example from the NFL. Colin Cowherd from ESPN ranted for weeks upon weeks early in the season about how the NFL is all about the QB's and the top ranked offenses... but take a look at the NFL's final 4 teams this year... All top defenses... A good defense trumps the best offense any day of the week in any sport. I don't understand why fellow New Yorkers don't see this and continue to be happy and support a coach that knows nothing about D except for the D in his last name. This team's success is going to solely reflect the defense we play. So D'Antoni either needs to change up his philosophy a bit, or he won't be here for long... I'll promise you guys that.

Thanks for the nice words Kiyaman.

Again, I literally think I might be going crazy. I can't be the only one that gets this, so I will post it AGAIN:

KBlack25 said:
All this talk about "D'Antoni not preaching defense" to me is bullshit, and I really don't get WHY people don't understand this simple fact:

D'Antoni's style increases the number of shots that go up. That inevitably increases the number of possessions per team.

Now, it doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out that the more possessions a team has allows the more points total to be scored.

The Knicks currently rank #2 in the league in "Pace", basically the number of possessions that occur in a game. That right there explains why they allow so many points. They give up more possessions.

Again, the more times a team touches a ball, the more points they can and will score. Am I crazy? Why don't people understand this?

So, to use your football analogy (by the way, football is a much different sport...and look at the TWO teams remaining, in the Super Bowl...they have the QBs who played the best, Aaron Rodgers is having a ridiculous playoffs and Ben Roethlisberger made some absurd plays last week. But of course you ignore the QB play):

If you have a team whose offense relies on the quick strike and deep play threats, the offense spends much less time on the field. That means the OTHER offense spends much MORE time on the field, and the more time you spend on the field the more chance you have to put up points. The Saints last year were criticized for having not a great defense, but that was because there offense was quick-strike vertical down the field. This resulted in quick scoring drives, not like the ones the Steelers had, ensuring the defense would be back out on the field quickly (and vicariously, the other offense) giving them a chance to score more points.

I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend.
 

Red

TYPE-A
I dont want to flame Mike D, but I have to reply to your post with a thumbs up.:peace: He doesnt play matchups. I've seen layup lines to the basket before games that offer more defensive resistance than the Knicks do during the game. No one steps in to take a charge. No one cuts their mans path off to the basket. Giving up the baseline has ALWAYS been a no-no in basketball, but we do it regularly. But hey if these cats think we can win with this coach more power to them. Just let it be known when we're ringless and Mike D is gone I'll be the first to tell you I TOLD YOU SO...

That's on the "players" it has nothing to do with the coach or system which was proven to be effective. (Sarcasm)
 

KBlack25

Starter
That's on the "players" it has nothing to do with the coach or system which was proven to be effective. (Sarcasm)

Are you seriously asserting that stepping up to take the charge and not giving up the baseline (literally basketball fundamentals) has nothing to do with the players on the floor?

I don't get this sentiment AT ALL! How a coach is exclusively blamed for simple basketball defensive fundamentals not happening (things a player should know to do instinctively at this point), and the player takes none of the blame really is beyond me.
 
Yea I hear you man... I agree with everything you just posted. I really think when we get some more star power here it will change up this organization as a whole for the better, from Dolan down to D'Antoni. When you have multiple stars on a team sometimes they can become more powerful than the coach. If those "stars" aren't winning in a respectable fashion, they could put the needed pressure on our organization and press the need to stress defense or whatever problem (like the ones you listed above) needs to be fixed. It's hard right now as fans because our voice really isn't heard.

I think that D'Antoni's coaching abilities are really going to get thrown into the spotlight in the next year or 2. If we're not winning with our new stars and not playing defense, the whole country is going to turn on him and FAST and he'll be out of a job before he knows it... There's going to be a ton of talented coaches waiting in line for an opportunity to coach a team full of gifted superstars. Sooner or later D'Antoni will figure this out and maybe start incorporating defense into his gameplan...Hopefully sooner than later not just for the team, but for the fans that have been waiting 10+ years to see this organization put out a decent product.

I dont think Mike D is capable of change. His track record shows that. He had a still productive Shaq, STAT, Marion and Nash and couldnt make it work. He already has his detractors, so IMHO he's thinking he has to win it his way. Why else would he not use the size he has (for other purposes besides offense) to play matchups? To defend the paint and rebound better?

I go way back in Knicks history when they were winning championships. They had a young kid named Phil Jackson, (Moz is 100x better) all he did is play defense get rebounds and foul. Primarily play defense. He never played more than 20-25 mins a game. Yet we won with him as a key reserve. He had a role that helped the team win. It wasnt putting points on the board. It was do what you do best.

Until MDA realizes there are other parts of the game, other things a player can do (no matter how small) to help you win besides shooting well he'll never win a championship.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Good thing we aren't ****ING TALKING ABOUT COLLEGE BASKETBALL, A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME TO ANYONE WHO KNOWS THE SPORT! A game where development of young, 18 year old KIDS, is more important, and the team game is emphasized to a much greater extent.



I didn't know you were in the practice, in the huddles, and at game day meetings where you hear his lack of preaching defense. Because when he is Mic'd up I hear him stressing defense consistently. But go ahead, continue to ignore things like "facts" and "reality" to make your point



Why do you think we were able to do that? The answer, to me, seems obvious. Besides STAT loving the spotlight, he came back to be back in the system (Mike D'Antoni's) where he played his best basketball...Mike D was a big reason STAT came here, if not THE reason STAT came here...and vicariously, if Carmelo comes here to play with STAT, Mike D'Antoni is a big part of us getting Carmelo.





Again, I literally think I might be going crazy. I can't be the only one that gets this, so I will post it AGAIN:



So, to use your football analogy (by the way, football is a much different sport...and look at the TWO teams remaining, in the Super Bowl...they have the QBs who played the best, Aaron Rodgers is having a ridiculous playoffs and Ben Roethlisberger made some absurd plays last week. But of course you ignore the QB play):

If you have a team whose offense relies on the quick strike and deep play threats, the offense spends much less time on the field. That means the OTHER offense spends much MORE time on the field, and the more time you spend on the field the more chance you have to put up points. The Saints last year were criticized for having not a great defense, but that was because there offense was quick-strike vertical down the field. This resulted in quick scoring drives, not like the ones the Steelers had, ensuring the defense would be back out on the field quickly (and vicariously, the other offense) giving them a chance to score more points.

I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend.

Sorry Black but you failed.

In football teams who run the ball and present balance on offense tend to lead in "time of possession" something critical to winning

The Saints D led the league in take-aways when they won the SB (a defensive stat)

Agreed, more possessions may (somewhat) explain the increased opponents scoring, but you neglect the whole picture. You must consider that the case in point is:

Faster shots means extra possessions, but when combined with the "FACT" that fatigue is an inevitable factor, along with having a squad that isn't sound defensively, this strategy can prove to ultimately be counter productive as a lack of defense added to more possessions equates to an inability to compete efficiently on both ends, which is what is happening.

By mentioning the 2 SB teams you actually made the point, btw both are TOP 5 in the league and bost 2 HOF defensive coordinators. Bad analogy because football embodies the term "defense wins games"... just check the Jets.

So in conclusion, theoretically you may win a few by running teams into the ground who can't keep up, but when that same team isn't prepared defensively to thwart the very threat perpetuated by engaging in such a strategy...

Well you become the reason for your own demise.

I don't think MDA should be fired midseason it wouldn't make a difference. But if we can really become a defensive team this offense wouldn't be so detrimental

But many realize, the defensive inefficiency IS PARTLY DUE TO THE OFFENSIVE APPROACH used by coach. Its that simple, we sacrifice defense and intangibles for offense, and its not consistent and its hard to have confidence in that approach.

All this approach needs is tweeking but coach refuses to adhere. We were clearly better with better defenders in the lineup thus scaling bck on the sacrificing. We are clearly in need of the USE of size, but no. We clearly can compete when we play our natural positions and do the fundamental things right such as stop chucking and WORK for high% shots, but no consistent change.

Rebounds or lack there of too are a by product of the system. So to be fair I can agree on what some MDA supporters think but fairly speaking

The philosophy of taking the "open 3" quick before the defense sets has to have issues, unless everyone would do it... do you agree? There is a reason why the previous 20 champions don't emplore this strategy, because something doesn't equate.

All the MDA non-supporters would like is for us analysts to be fair and see the short comings of this system. It helps explain things which are not so obvious and I don't see why we can't agree. Every system has limits when we can agree and realize maybe that's why we don't rebound well, or maybe that's why we can't sustain possibly due to fatigue, or maybe that's why we've had MANY servicable bigs but don't use them effectively, then we can all move on and discuss "how can we improve",

But when u blindly root and are subjective, then glaring things aren't recognized and you fantasize. We support our team, but we see the writing on the wall. Our systems limits, ancillary effects, and unwillingness to change and incorporate fundamental proven strategies will be our downfall, and no one here wants that.

I and some gave MDA props when they were due, I just wish for once an MDA supporter can list what exactly is a "weakness" of this approach to be fair. If they did things would make much more sense.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
It's :barf:, but to the point of being :teeth:

Like a filthy clown w minimal skills, forced to try to entertain gay bachelor parties to try to make his bones (aka robin'piss running to the aid of bat'dick, using a buried picture and argument, that was a fail even when it was alive, as the douche'signal).

I just reread this as I skimmed over it while driving to the office and I must say it made me chuckle. LOL at these dudes come running to the douche'signal. :teeth:
 
That's on the "players" it has nothing to do with the coach or system which was proven to be effective. (Sarcasm)

Basketball is conditioning. Every part of it. Shooting, playing defense, rebounding, passing its all conditioning. You do each and everything so much when you play a lot that they become reflexes. A team can become conditioned also. Right now the Knicks are conditioned to take quick shots. take three pointers. They arent conditioned to box out, take a charge, cut off the baseline. No matter what players we add this team needs a lot of work to become championship caliber...
 

KBlack25

Starter
Sorry Black but you failed.

In football teams who run the ball and present balance on offense tend to lead in "time of possession" something critical to winning

The Saints D led the league in take-aways when they won the SB (a defensive stat)

Agreed, more possessions may (somewhat) explain the increased opponents scoring, but you neglect the whole picture. You must consider that the case in point is:

Faster shots means extra possessions, but when combined with the "FACT" that fatigue is an inevitable factor, along with having a squad that isn't sound defensively, this strategy can prove to ultimately be counter productive as a lack of defense added to more possessions equates to an inability to compete efficiently on both ends, which is what is happening.

By mentioning the 2 SB teams you actually made the point, btw both are TOP 5 in the league and bost 2 HOF defensive coordinators. Bad analogy because football embodies the term "defense wins games"... just check the Jets.

So in conclusion, theoretically you may win a few by running teams into the ground who can't keep up, but when that same team isn't prepared defensively to thwart the very threat perpetuated by engaging in such a strategy...

Well you become the reason for your own demise.

I don't think MDA should be fired midseason it wouldn't make a difference. But if we can really become a defensive team this offense wouldn't be so detrimental

But many realize, the defensive inefficiency IS PARTLY DUE TO THE OFFENSIVE APPROACH used by coach. Its that simple, we sacrifice defense and intangibles for offense, and its not consistent and its hard to have confidence in that approach.

All this approach needs is tweeking but coach refuses to adhere. We were clearly better with better defenders in the lineup thus scaling bck on the sacrificing. We are clearly in need of the USE of size, but no. We clearly can compete when we play our natural positions and do the fundamental things right such as stop chucking and WORK for high% shots, but no consistent change.

Rebounds or lack there of too are a by product of the system. So to be fair I can agree on what some MDA supporters think but fairly speaking

The philosophy of taking the "open 3" quick before the defense sets has to have issues, unless everyone would do it... do you agree? There is a reason why the previous 20 champions don't emplore this strategy, because something doesn't equate.

All the MDA non-supporters would like is for us analysts to be fair and see the short comings of this system. It helps explain things which are not so obvious and I don't see why we can't agree. Every system has limits when we can agree and realize maybe that's why we don't rebound well, or maybe that's why we can't sustain possibly due to fatigue, or maybe that's why we've had MANY servicable bigs but don't use them effectively, then we can all move on and discuss "how can we improve",

But when u blindly root and are subjective, then glaring things aren't recognized and you fantasize. We support our team, but we see the writing on the wall. Our systems limits, ancillary effects, and unwillingness to change and incorporate fundamental proven strategies will be our downfall, and no one here wants that.

I and some gave MDA props when they were due, I just wish for once an MDA supporter can list what exactly is a "weakness" of this approach to be fair. If they did things would make much more sense.

Well at least you approach it sensibly in a way that doesn't seem totally crazy.

To begin, I did not make the football analogy, someone else did. It doesn't work because the game is so different. The fact that teams with a running game and control of the pace of the game wins games indicates to me that offense, in part (and by the way in which you create offense), creates and necessarily affects defense. I don't have #s in front of me but I would bet teams with better run games also have better ranked defenses, for a variety of reasons.

But that skirts the point.

You say lack of rebounding is a product of the system. But we also still don't have a relevant back up big man. Turiaf is fine, Stoudemire is fine, but in my opinion Mike D'Antoni tried to fix the issue by starting Mozgov early. Mozgov was not ready, plain and simple.

The thing I find strange is the archetype of the D'Antoni bashers on this website:

When the season started and we struggled, D'Antoni bashers were in full force saying this was proof the system didn't work.

Then when we started winning games, it wasn't because the system worked it was because D'Antoni adjusted the system which was "proof" in a bad system.

Now that we are losing, suddenly the talk of adjustments disappeared, D'Antoni was no longer a coach that adjusted and again the system was the problem.

To me, what I see, win or lose, some people are going to hate the coach.

I think that the coach always gets too much credit when things go right, too much blame when things go wrong. At the end of the day, the players play the game. Now we can blame MDA, we can blame Walsh, we can blame the refs, we can blame God. But the fact is the players, not the coach, are the ones charged with putting the ball in the hoop and not turning the ball over. They are the ones who are missing fundamentally key plays.

We want to talk about taking the open 3, quick jumpers...I see Gallinari taking it to the hoop this season more than ever, an indicator to me that there has been some change in the strategy (whereas before he would take jumpers). But you cannot draw blood from a stone. The fact is the team doesn't right now have enough relevant size and rebounding size to get the job done in the post. He tried Mozgov, Mozgov clearly was not ready. I don't know what more he can do with the talent he has except for use our speed/athleticism to run, compensating for the lack of height.
 
Well at least you approach it sensibly in a way that doesn't seem totally crazy.

To begin, I did not make the football analogy, someone else did. It doesn't work because the game is so different. The fact that teams with a running game and control of the pace of the game wins games indicates to me that offense, in part (and by the way in which you create offense), creates and necessarily affects defense. I don't have #s in front of me but I would bet teams with better run games also have better ranked defenses, for a variety of reasons.

But that skirts the point.

You say lack of rebounding is a product of the system. But we also still don't have a relevant back up big man. Turiaf is fine, Stoudemire is fine, but in my opinion Mike D'Antoni tried to fix the issue by starting Mozgov early. Mozgov was not ready, plain and simple.

The thing I find strange is the archetype of the D'Antoni bashers on this website:

When the season started and we struggled, D'Antoni bashers were in full force saying this was proof the system didn't work.

Then when we started winning games, it wasn't because the system worked it was because D'Antoni adjusted the system which was "proof" in a bad system.

Now that we are losing, suddenly the talk of adjustments disappeared, D'Antoni was no longer a coach that adjusted and again the system was the problem.

To me, what I see, win or lose, some people are going to hate the coach.

I think that the coach always gets too much credit when things go right, too much blame when things go wrong. At the end of the day, the players play the game. Now we can blame MDA, we can blame Walsh, we can blame the refs, we can blame God. But the fact is the players, not the coach, are the ones charged with putting the ball in the hoop and not turning the ball over. They are the ones who are missing fundamentally key plays.

We want to talk about taking the open 3, quick jumpers...I see Gallinari taking it to the hoop this season more than ever, an indicator to me that there has been some change in the strategy (whereas before he would take jumpers). But you cannot draw blood from a stone. The fact is the team doesn't right now have enough relevant size and rebounding size to get the job done in the post. He tried Mozgov, Mozgov clearly was not ready. I don't know what more he can do with the talent he has except for use our speed/athleticism to run, compensating for the lack of height.

What exactly wasnt Moz ready for? And I guess AR isnt ready either?

Also you say Gallo is driving more. These STATS prove he'sjust about the same:

shot selection 2010-2011

jumpers 84%
Close 11%
dunks 4%
tips 1%
inside 16%

2009-2010

jumpers 82%
close 14%
dunks 3%
tips 1%
inside 18%

Actually he may have regressed slightly...
 
Last edited:

Red

TYPE-A
Are you seriously asserting that stepping up to take the charge and not giving up the baseline (literally basketball fundamentals) has nothing to do with the players on the floor?

I don't get this sentiment AT ALL! How a coach is exclusively blamed for simple basketball defensive fundamentals not happening (things a player should know to do instinctively at this point), and the player takes none of the blame really is beyond me.

See Black that's what I mean...

Everything is an absolute. Did I say "the coach is to be exclusively blamed for simple bb defensive fundamentals?

Be fair...

You give MDA props for an overachieving offense then you must hold him accountable for a lack of d and rebounding, and it might NOT be due t him not preaching but moreso due to the not so obvious effects of the strategy overall.

Be fair... just analyze the positives and negatives, the prs and cons, the strengths and weaknesses objectively and it becomes apparant.

What do you feel are the negatives, cons or weaknesses? Break it down and show us you can be objective. Can we agree on anything. I'm anxious to see your pov, and not to be argumentative, but really to be on the same page.

If we need size and we've had size and played better with size and more defensive players like Turiaf, with so may bigs being neglected... is it not fair to conclude "maybe the coach doesn't value them like most" is that fair?
 

KBlack25

Starter
See Black that's what I mean...

Everything is an absolute. Did I say "the coach is to be exclusively blamed for simple bb defensive fundamentals?

Be fair...

You give MDA props for an overachieving offense then you must hold him accountable for a lack of d and rebounding, and it might NOT be due t him not preaching but moreso due to the not so obvious effects of the strategy overall.

Be fair... just analyze the positives and negatives, the prs and cons, the strengths and weaknesses objectively and it becomes apparant.

What do you feel are the negatives, cons or weaknesses? Break it down and show us you can be objective. Can we agree on anything. I'm anxious to see your pov, and not to be argumentative, but really to be on the same page.

If we need size and we've had size and played better with size and more defensive players like Turiaf, with so may bigs being neglected... is it not fair to conclude "maybe the coach doesn't value them like most" is that fair?

The way I read the quote which I referred to was that YOU were speaking in absolutes. READ what I wrote again, my interpretation was YOU blaming the coach exclusively, I never said the players are exclusively to blame.

But, in calculus, your calculus professor shouldn't have to teach you or stress the importance of addition and subtraction. The stuff you are pointing out that isn't getting done to me is addition and subtraction in the game of calculus. Advanced defensive strategies, I admit he does not excel at...but when there are BASIC FUNDAMENTALS going awry that to me looks more like a player/personnel issue than a coaching issue. MDA shouldn't HAVE to teach or stress the importance of giving up the baseline, that's basics.

I know that Mike D isn't some defensive genius or wizard, but when the problems are more fundamental that indicates to me player issues.

And if you watched Mozgov play, he wasn't ready and didn't know how to play defense without giving up stupid fouls. Mike D gave him a shot, and if he played well he would have retained his job. We were losing with him, I don't know what more you want...
 

jimkcchief88

All Star
Lemme get in on this "classic" KO.COM thread. Lots of great points made above in D'ants favor and against, and for once I am right down the middle.

I agree with Roro that this is still a team in developement and those others that say all the pieces aren't there. I agree with those that say the team is ahead of schedule. I barely expected 30 wins from this team and most NBA analysts are surprised by the EARLY season sucess. But as TRILL told me many threads ago, basketball is a long season.... This team still has a way to go yet.....

I also agree that we take WAY too many quick shots and it taxes our defense along with the short rotation. We have all seen this before: Knicks get off to a rough start, find thier groove in December giving us all hope, then hit the wall after the all-star break and fall with a resounding thud.

To pick up on the football analogy, let me tell you why alot of Knicks fans have trouble with our current system. Being a Chiefs fan in the 90's w/Marty Shottenhiemer and Derrick Thomas, we got used to strong defense and ball control to get to the playoffs. Never won a championship(like the 90's Knicks teams), but were always in the hunt. Then Dick Vermeil can in after winning the Superbowl w/ the greatest show on turf in STL. All of a sudden the emphesis was on the offense instead and Tony G and Priest Holmes lit it up. But still no championship because the defense stopped no one. It was fun to watch, but in the end that same empty feeling and we knew the team needed balance.

Fast forward to this year's Chiefs team that surprised everyone and took the division. It was great, but one and done in the playoffs leaves you very empty. Which is where I feel this Knicks team is headed as well. I would love to see the Knicks back in the playoffs, but a 7th or 8th seed and a first round drubbing by the Bulls(no), Celtics(hell no), or the Heat(hell **** no) will leave us all feeling very empty.

So the bottomline to me is if D'ant is on a 4 year contract, let him finish it. Bring in the rest of the talent next year and give him one year to blend it. I know that's a short window, but it has been a long road for Knicks fans. No other NY team has tolerated such poor play for so long without drastic changes. At the end at least the cupboard will be full for a different coach with a different philosophy. Either way, no matter how you feel about the coach, this is a Knicks team on the rise to take heart Knicks fans because the best is on the horizon.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Sorry Black but you failed.

In football teams who run the ball and present balance on offense tend to lead in "time of possession" something critical to winning

The Saints D led the league in take-aways when they won the SB (a defensive stat)

Agreed, more possessions may (somewhat) explain the increased opponents scoring, but you neglect the whole picture. You must consider that the case in point is:

Faster shots means extra possessions, but when combined with the "FACT" that fatigue is an inevitable factor, along with having a squad that isn't sound defensively, this strategy can prove to ultimately be counter productive as a lack of defense added to more possessions equates to an inability to compete efficiently on both ends, which is what is happening.

By mentioning the 2 SB teams you actually made the point, btw both are TOP 5 in the league and bost 2 HOF defensive coordinators. Bad analogy because football embodies the term "defense wins games"... just check the Jets.

So in conclusion, theoretically you may win a few by running teams into the ground who can't keep up, but when that same team isn't prepared defensively to thwart the very threat perpetuated by engaging in such a strategy...

Well you become the reason for your own demise.

I don't think MDA should be fired midseason it wouldn't make a difference. But if we can really become a defensive team this offense wouldn't be so detrimental

But many realize, the defensive inefficiency IS PARTLY DUE TO THE OFFENSIVE APPROACH used by coach. Its that simple, we sacrifice defense and intangibles for offense, and its not consistent and its hard to have confidence in that approach.

All this approach needs is tweeking but coach refuses to adhere. We were clearly better with better defenders in the lineup thus scaling bck on the sacrificing. We are clearly in need of the USE of size, but no. We clearly can compete when we play our natural positions and do the fundamental things right such as stop chucking and WORK for high% shots, but no consistent change.

Rebounds or lack there of too are a by product of the system. So to be fair I can agree on what some MDA supporters think but fairly speaking

The philosophy of taking the "open 3" quick before the defense sets has to have issues, unless everyone would do it... do you agree? There is a reason why the previous 20 champions don't emplore this strategy, because something doesn't equate.

All the MDA non-supporters would like is for us analysts to be fair and see the short comings of this system. It helps explain things which are not so obvious and I don't see why we can't agree. Every system has limits when we can agree and realize maybe that's why we don't rebound well, or maybe that's why we can't sustain possibly due to fatigue, or maybe that's why we've had MANY servicable bigs but don't use them effectively, then we can all move on and discuss "how can we improve",

But when u blindly root and are subjective, then glaring things aren't recognized and you fantasize. We support our team, but we see the writing on the wall. Our systems limits, ancillary effects, and unwillingness to change and incorporate fundamental proven strategies will be our downfall, and no one here wants that.

I and some gave MDA props when they were due, I just wish for once an MDA supporter can list what exactly is a "weakness" of this approach to be fair. If they did things would make much more sense.

Yeah, I quoted myself twice. I make too much sense.

Toons. For your eyes...

Helloooo Mcfly anyone home? Lol...

Just say we should play the bigs more... please just once....
(And it has nothin to do with development as proven on Sunday, and everything to do with reluctance, birds of a feather I guess)
 
Yeah, I quoted myself twice. I make too much sense.



Helloooo Mcfly anyone home? Lol...

Just say we should play the bigs more... please just once....
(And it has nothin to do with development as proven on Sunday, and everything to do with reluctance, birds of a feather I guess)

He wont show. He seems to hate being wrong. Instead of manning up and admiting he's wrong he attacks like a scorned little girl...
 
Top