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Thread: Dantoni creating 1 dimensional team!

  1. #1
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    Default Dantoni creating 1 dimensional team!

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    Here's a few pieces and quotes from the article (with my opinion below each)

    Mr. D'Antoni's first became infatuated with the 3-pointer in Europe, where he was a point guard on a fast-paced team in Italy. The line was even closer in Italy than in the NBA (20 feet, 5 inches), and Mr. D'Antoni said he immediately took to it as a player. He noticed that the fast pace of the offense usually led to open 3-pointers, and his coaching philosophy of 'take the first open shot' fit well with the fact that the first open shot was usually worth one more point than the traditional two-point basket.

    How is that promoting ball movement? Fundamentally that's not sound.

    "A lot of it is confidence and knowing you won't get yelled at if you shoot it. Then there's practice and getting them to understand that a wide-open shot, even if it's a little bit longer, is easier than a hard shot closer in," Mr. D'Antoni said. "We try to take easy shots. If you have confidence, most NBA guys can make them."

    Perhaps if your a good shooter but then you decrease your FT attempts and ability to get the opposition in foul trouble.

    "The difference is that in traditional offenses, they keep the other big in the middle," Knicks assistant coach Dan D'Antoni said. "in our offense, that guy is on the outside, so when they come in to [guard the big man], we have a three open. That's why it works."

    No, it doesn't work and that's why we get killed on the boards nearly every game. (Big reason why we lost to OKC)

    So, how do you assemble such a trigger-happy group of long-range shooters? The Knicks have seven players who shoot above the league average from 3-point range, and team president Donnie Walsh said the task is easier because of how many players the staff has transformed into 3-point aces. Mr. Walsh said scouting for the right type of shooters for Mr. D'Antoni is a matter of volume, not precision.

    Great, so I guess practice mostly involves 3pt shooting and less about defensive schemes.

    "The big difference is we scout for the three at more positions," Mr. Walsh said. "I look for it in the point guard and in the power forward and even sometimes the center, which is very unusual."

    That's not conducive to a great basketball team.

    The case study of how the 3-point culture impacts players is the 6-foot-10 Mr. Gallinari, who Mr. Walsh said was drafted to drive and play inside. In his third year in the NBA, he's made 279 career 3-pointers. "It's the system that encourages it," Mr. Walsh said.

    So for all the people wondering... its more the system and not Gallo on why he camps on the 3pt line.

    The 3-point shot is emphasized in practice, as are the hot spots. In training camp, the coaches put pieces of tape at four spots on the floor, the two corners and the two spots at the wing referred to as the "45s" because they are at 45-degree angles from the basket. Mr. Williams said that he and a few of the team's other sharpshooters typically take a few hundred shots from those four spots each day.

    Way to focus on all aspects of the game Dantoni! See, this is why when shots aren't falling they look lost.


    These are just MY opinions so please do not catch a hissy fit if you don't agree with it.

  2. #2
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    Great article, thread, thoughts, etc.

    Re: Gallo. Exactly. That is why he was drafted -- or really, what he was known for. Elite, unusually effective slashing for a big man. And passing.

    Which is another reason it's so asinine when haters prematurely ejaculate opinions on pigeon holing him as a 1 trick pony, or not being coordinated, not diverse or skilled, etc.

    Does he look super smooth or coordinated and powerfully graceful like many NBA stars? No. But you don't get style points in how you finish, just like child support services doesn't care how you screw. For whatever reasons, he isn't built and doesn't move with what we consider prototypical athleticism.

    Learn to enjoy that for the comedy and uniqueness of it.

    Anyways, this article explains a lot n sheds a lot of light. I disagree w your contentions in part. Not that they are even wrong, but that what Walsh/D'ant said here, doesn't exclude the things you want -- what we all want -- from happening, too.

    Not mutually exclusive, IMHO. Defense can be good for us; we can have quality bigs get quality minutes, etc.

    We just aren't that good right now, and don't have some basic players. D'ant not giving burn to the AR's isn't about him not wanting size, defense, etc. If anything, AR's skill set is a dream for D'ant. It's issues of looking to protect him for a bigger picture trade, not wanting to disrupt a team flow and chemistry D'ant is prizing, and quite possibly he thinks he is a head case n doesn't want to reward him. For better or worse.

    Edit -- the 3pt element may make us more dimensional if anything. Giving ample opportunities for assists, passing out of 2x teams with ease, giving better spacing and opportunity for slashing and inside dominance.

    This "philosophy" can be butchered and run wrongly, of course, and not executed well by the players. Or the coach. But itself is a good/powerful thing. Doesn't mean you can't tweak it, too.

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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Here's a few pieces and quotes from the article (with my opinion below each)

    Mr. D'Antoni's first became infatuated with the 3-pointer in Europe, where he was a point guard on a fast-paced team in Italy. The line was even closer in Italy than in the NBA (20 feet, 5 inches), and Mr. D'Antoni said he immediately took to it as a player. He noticed that the fast pace of the offense usually led to open 3-pointers, and his coaching philosophy of 'take the first open shot' fit well with the fact that the first open shot was usually worth one more point than the traditional two-point basket.

    How is that promoting ball movement? Fundamentally that's not sound.

    "A lot of it is confidence and knowing you won't get yelled at if you shoot it. Then there's practice and getting them to understand that a wide-open shot, even if it's a little bit longer, is easier than a hard shot closer in," Mr. D'Antoni said. "We try to take easy shots. If you have confidence, most NBA guys can make them."

    Perhaps if your a good shooter but then you decrease your FT attempts and ability to get the opposition in foul trouble.

    "The difference is that in traditional offenses, they keep the other big in the middle," Knicks assistant coach Dan D'Antoni said. "in our offense, that guy is on the outside, so when they come in to [guard the big man], we have a three open. That's why it works."

    No, it doesn't work and that's why we get killed on the boards nearly every game. (Big reason why we lost to OKC)

    So, how do you assemble such a trigger-happy group of long-range shooters? The Knicks have seven players who shoot above the league average from 3-point range, and team president Donnie Walsh said the task is easier because of how many players the staff has transformed into 3-point aces. Mr. Walsh said scouting for the right type of shooters for Mr. D'Antoni is a matter of volume, not precision.

    Great, so I guess practice mostly involves 3pt shooting and less about defensive schemes.

    "The big difference is we scout for the three at more positions," Mr. Walsh said. "I look for it in the point guard and in the power forward and even sometimes the center, which is very unusual."

    That's not conducive to a great basketball team.

    The case study of how the 3-point culture impacts players is the 6-foot-10 Mr. Gallinari, who Mr. Walsh said was drafted to drive and play inside. In his third year in the NBA, he's made 279 career 3-pointers. "It's the system that encourages it," Mr. Walsh said.

    So for all the people wondering... its more the system and not Gallo on why he camps on the 3pt line.

    The 3-point shot is emphasized in practice, as are the hot spots. In training camp, the coaches put pieces of tape at four spots on the floor, the two corners and the two spots at the wing referred to as the "45s" because they are at 45-degree angles from the basket. Mr. Williams said that he and a few of the team's other sharpshooters typically take a few hundred shots from those four spots each day.

    Way to focus on all aspects of the game Dantoni! See, this is why when shots aren't falling they look lost.


    These are just MY opinions so please do not catch a hissy fit if you don't agree with it.
    Just as I said..."Dont hate the player...Hate the coach...

    if you ask me.. its really not a system...its an open shot policy

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by moneyg
    Just as I said..."Dont hate the player...Hate the coach...

    if you ask me.. its really not a system...its an open shot policy
    It's become the most predictable system in the league to defend, too.

    Scouting report staff must consider the Knicks a virtual day off.

    The 3-point shot is emphasized in practice, as are the hot spots. In training camp, the coaches put pieces of tape at four spots on the floor, the two corners and the two spots at the wing referred to as the "45s" because they are at 45-degree angles from the basket. Mr. Williams said that he and a few of the team's other sharpshooters typically take a few hundred shots from those four spots each day.
    ^
    Seriously?


    Aren't there some more blaring issues to deal with defensively? Or is this not a part of MD's repertoire?

    I like that Gallo is perceived as NOT being a one trick pony.

    I'm becoming less patient with the fact that our coach has become one, and the league knows it. There's no mystery behind the high volume of the offense. It's like when you figure out the workings of an amateur magician's illusion.

    If this constitutes an offensive mastermind, what constitutes a defensive one?

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    Originally Posted by Crazy8s
    It's become the most predictable system in the league to defend, too.

    Scouting report staff must consider the Knicks a virtual day off
    .


    ^
    Seriously?


    Aren't there some more blaring issues to deal with defensively? Or is this not a part of MD's repertoire?

    I like that Gallo is perceived as NOT being a one trick pony.

    I'm becoming less patient with the fact that our coach has become one, and the league knows it. There's no mystery behind the high volume of the offense. It's like when you figure out the workings of an amateur magician's illusion.

    If this constitutes an offensive mastermind, what constitutes a defensive one?
    ^^ LOL, day off.

    But my dude, ther ppl hype our 3pt shooting and offense, more than D'ant himself! This is a great article full of truth, but also conveniently furthers the hot talking point that D'ant = all 3pt offense/no defense.

    When listening to him on the sidelines, interviews, press conferences, etc, he really isn' a 1trick pony either. I guarantee that just as Gallo has been proved to be more than his waning 1trick pony perception, so too will D'ant.

    Given how small, incomplete, and inherently not so great our lineup is..You can't expect the defensive look n feel we want. If it's bc D'ant isn't rolling the dice in certain players, that's a big issue, but a seperate one, from what I can tell.

    Eg Williams, as a sharp shooter, doing all that D'antoni 3pt practice...But look at the results. A huge surprise and boon for us, a legit weapon off the bench and got his career/life revived in the process.

    I'm sure Williams does spend an inordinate amount of time on such things, but it's role-specific. Do Williams, and others, do similar drills for defense? Idk, but my guess would be yes, and I'll look into it; and see if we don't hear about them bc it doesn't align w the more desirable media visage of equating D'ant w 3pt shooting, which isn't false, and the articles don't get written on it bc it's just not as popular, sexy, or easy a topic to write on and get good reviews on.

    Re: SSOL one trick pony. I'll agree that it IS an obvious system and the league does know what to expect of it. But that's been the case since the PHO days. If our offense truly does sputter, and goes lame the rest of the reason I'll agree that tweaks and changes MUST happen, n our recent gimp output isn't just the vagaries of players taking **** shots and laying bricks.

  6. #6
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Here's a few pieces and quotes from the article (with my opinion below each)

    Mr. D'Antoni's first became infatuated with the 3-pointer in Europe, where he was a point guard on a fast-paced team in Italy. The line was even closer in Italy than in the NBA (20 feet, 5 inches), and Mr. D'Antoni said he immediately took to it as a player. He noticed that the fast pace of the offense usually led to open 3-pointers, and his coaching philosophy of 'take the first open shot' fit well with the fact that the first open shot was usually worth one more point than the traditional two-point basket.

    How is that promoting ball movement? Fundamentally that's not sound.

    "A lot of it is confidence and knowing you won't get yelled at if you shoot it. Then there's practice and getting them to understand that a wide-open shot, even if it's a little bit longer, is easier than a hard shot closer in," Mr. D'Antoni said. "We try to take easy shots. If you have confidence, most NBA guys can make them."

    Perhaps if your a good shooter but then you decrease your FT attempts and ability to get the opposition in foul trouble.

    "The difference is that in traditional offenses, they keep the other big in the middle," Knicks assistant coach Dan D'Antoni said. "in our offense, that guy is on the outside, so when they come in to [guard the big man], we have a three open. That's why it works."

    No, it doesn't work and that's why we get killed on the boards nearly every game. (Big reason why we lost to OKC)

    So, how do you assemble such a trigger-happy group of long-range shooters? The Knicks have seven players who shoot above the league average from 3-point range, and team president Donnie Walsh said the task is easier because of how many players the staff has transformed into 3-point aces. Mr. Walsh said scouting for the right type of shooters for Mr. D'Antoni is a matter of volume, not precision.

    Great, so I guess practice mostly involves 3pt shooting and less about defensive schemes.

    "The big difference is we scout for the three at more positions," Mr. Walsh said. "I look for it in the point guard and in the power forward and even sometimes the center, which is very unusual."

    That's not conducive to a great basketball team.

    The case study of how the 3-point culture impacts players is the 6-foot-10 Mr. Gallinari, who Mr. Walsh said was drafted to drive and play inside. In his third year in the NBA, he's made 279 career 3-pointers. "It's the system that encourages it," Mr. Walsh said.

    So for all the people wondering... its more the system and not Gallo on why he camps on the 3pt line.

    The 3-point shot is emphasized in practice, as are the hot spots. In training camp, the coaches put pieces of tape at four spots on the floor, the two corners and the two spots at the wing referred to as the "45s" because they are at 45-degree angles from the basket. Mr. Williams said that he and a few of the team's other sharpshooters typically take a few hundred shots from those four spots each day.

    Way to focus on all aspects of the game Dantoni! See, this is why when shots aren't falling they look lost.


    These are just MY opinions so please do not catch a hissy fit if you don't agree with it.
    NICE

    so true

    look it makes sense that the first shot is usually the open one but with proper ball movement, screens, guys cutting the hoop, you can easily get open shots and create havoc for the opposing defense

    When I'm facing a team in basketball that runs up the floor and just chucks, im going to go after those boards and grab everything...Ill let them shoot those bombs because the Knicks don't always make them and when they start missing the 3 point shot is when they are in trouble and the opposing team sees that their usual game plan is failing so the confidence of the opposing team soars.

    Im not saying this can NEVER work, with enough sharp shooters, a dominate post man, and a great passing PG this can win a chamiponship but we don't have a team of sharp shooters, Felton can rack assists but just think of how many assists Nash, Paul, Williams would get in this system of the PG running everything and always holding the ball? I'm guessing in the 11 and up range, especially with Amare in his prime right now and Gallo/Chandler having their best seasons so far.

    We have the post presense in Amare, we have shooters in Williams, Gallo, Walker, and Chandler...but Chandler and Gallo can go ice cold any night, Walker tends to force the three and Williams is the only guy i have no complaint about, expcept he should just shoot and stop trying to do too much, he travels too much.

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    The thing that bothers me the most is Dantoni doesn't have alternatives to his offense. Its one way no matter what and the only difference will be the players. This is why there is no guarantee if we get a better center that he will even allow him to blossom. If we get a decent center that's doing good things but at the same time slowing things down then I can see Dantoni benching him in the 4th or for long stretches in a game to substitute more offense.

    Some teams with more athletic players and good defensive low post players don't have to double Amare. This creates a situation where our shooters are always guarded and will take a bunch of (low percentage) contested 3s. It's these moments where Dantoni could use Walker and Chandler to attack more and draw fouls. The 3 pt shot is not the answer to everything.

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    Great find. It's pretty much what we all knew/expected from coach D'antoni. The bottom line is the NBA is not the Euro league. The NBA is not a 6"9' and under league. And, according to my math: 1 made three-pointer every 3 possessions is not greater than 2 buckets in the paint every 3 possessions.

    The obvious fundamental flaws in MD's thinking are:

    1) He looks for BIGs who can shoot, b/c that opens the paint and creates lanes to the hoop. Drawing the opponent's big man away from the basket works great on offense, but on defense it's the crack in the dam that leads to a complete flooding of the area (since there's no center to stop drives giving you a post/interior presence).

    2) In theory, an open 27 foot shoot is nice. Even better than a contested 11 foot shot or a congested attempt in the paint... But when does theory ever work out in sports? The hub of it all is that a 3-point shot is the lowest pct shot you can take. An attempt in the paint is always better.

    3) Taking the first shot might work well with unselfish players... But most NBA players are selfish, and have to be since they are fighting for their minutes, careers and family. A fine line between an open shot and a forced shot.

    4) Maybe I'm old school. Maybe I have B-Knight in me. I believe in passing on the first open look if it leads to a BETTER (higher pct) shot. I believe in the extra pass, especially if it turns an 11-foot jumper into a layup.

    5) Ball movement creates open looks, as you wait for a breakdown in the defense.

    6) Making your opponent work on defense saps energy and hurt their offense. And, as someone noted, it helps get you EASY buckets at the free throw line and hopefully gets people into foul trouble.

    7) OH, did we forget to mention that the NBA is a league where HEIGHT, LENGHT, BEEF and DEFENSE wins championships?

    8) The first open look doesn't work in the half court. Especially in the playoffs when the refs allow the more physical style (which always helps the defense). AND, with more physical defense being played, and the pressure that comes with the playoffs... There goes the entire open look - confidence philosophy.

    9) Shooting goes into slumps. AND< when your whole identity is tied to the long-range bomb, when the Knicks are missing shots every other aspect of their game is impacted (b/c they lose heart/energy). Defense, rebounding, ball movement, hustle never slumps. A lack of effort can only sap these areas.

    10) Basketball is a team game. MD's system is based on the individual shooter playing his own game.

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    Originally Posted by mafra
    Great find. It's pretty much what we all knew/expected from coach D'antoni. The bottom line is the NBA is not the Euro league. The NBA is not a 6"9' and under league. And, according to my math: 1 made three-pointer every 3 possessions is not greater than 2 buckets in the paint every 3 possessions.

    The obvious fundamental flaws in MD's thinking are:

    1) He looks for BIGs who can shoot, b/c that opens the paint and creates lanes to the hoop. Drawing the opponent's big man away from the basket works great on offense, but on defense it's the crack in the dam that leads to a complete flooding of the area (since there's no center to stop drives giving you a post/interior presence).

    2) In theory, an open 27 foot shoot is nice. Even better than a contested 11 foot shot or a congested attempt in the paint... But when does theory ever work out in sports? The hub of it all is that a 3-point shot is the lowest pct shot you can take. An attempt in the paint is always better.

    3) Taking the first shot might work well with unselfish players... But most NBA players are selfish, and have to be since they are fighting for their minutes, careers and family. A fine line between an open shot and a forced shot.

    4) Maybe I'm old school. Maybe I have B-Knight in me. I believe in passing on the first open look if it leads to a BETTER (higher pct) shot. I believe in the extra pass, especially if it turns an 11-foot jumper into a layup.

    5) Ball movement creates open looks, as you wait for a breakdown in the defense.

    6) Making your opponent work on defense saps energy and hurt their offense. And, as someone noted, it helps get you EASY buckets at the free throw line and hopefully gets people into foul trouble.

    7) OH, did we forget to mention that the NBA is a league where HEIGHT, LENGHT, BEEF and DEFENSE wins championships?

    8) The first open look doesn't work in the half court. Especially in the playoffs when the refs allow the more physical style (which always helps the defense). AND, with more physical defense being played, and the pressure that comes with the playoffs... There goes the entire open look - confidence philosophy.

    9) Shooting goes into slumps. AND< when your whole identity is tied to the long-range bomb, when the Knicks are missing shots every other aspect of their game is impacted (b/c they lose heart/energy). Defense, rebounding, ball movement, hustle never slumps. A lack of effort can only sap these areas.

    10) Basketball is a team game. MD's system is based on the individual shooter playing his own game.
    just a correction, the philosophy is that 1 open 3 is more valuable than contested 2's

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    and what does this article have to do with defense if he is only xplaining the offensive possessions?
    im still with our stye until we get the players we need, and then if we still fail, then i will wat dantoni gone

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    and what does this article have to do with defense if he is only xplaining the offensive possessions?
    im still with our stye until we get the players we need, and then if we still fail, then i will wat dantoni gone
    The players we need to fit his style? or the players players we need to get better as whole?

    That's a big difference.

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    If you can hit 3 pointers at 33.3% that's equal to 2 pointers at 50% because you get 3 points instead of 2.

    So open 3 pointers by good outside shooters are WAY BETTER than contested or even uncontested mid range and other long 2 point jump shots. However, 3 pointers are obviously not as good as layups, dunks, and even shots near the rim because not only will you make those more than 50% of the time, you'll also get fouled a lot of the time and turn it into a 3 point play or at least get 2 easy free throws.

    I like 3 point shooting, but we do it to an excess. Plus because we spread the floor so much, we can't get as many offensive rebounds and are limited in the types of players we get and play.

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    Originally Posted by Italian Stallion
    If you can hit 3 pointers at 33.3% that's equal to 2 pointers at 50% because you get 3 points instead of 2.

    So open 3 pointers by good outside shooters are WAY BETTER than contested or even uncontested mid range and other long 2 point jump shots. However, 3 pointers are obviously not as good as layups, dunks, and even shots near the rim because not only will you make those more than 50% of the time, you'll also get fouled a lot of the time and turn it into a 3 point play or at least get 2 easy free throws.

    I like 3 point shooting, but we do it to an excess. Plus because we spread the floor so much, we can't get as many offensive rebounds and are limited in the types of players we get and play.
    agree 100%

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